Another quick question Jelani; does barding exist in this time period (made from the armour materials listed as available obviously)?
Another quick question Jelani; does barding exist in this time period (made from the armour materials listed as available obviously)?
He already said no to this further up thread somewhere.
Thanks Nezard!
I really must add something.
In 782 the ideological reach and power of the Catholic church was not as extensive as is portrayed.
Yes, even amongst the Franks. There would be heresy and pockets of beliefs contrary to the rising Catholic hegemony. Why? Because it was a rising hegemony at this stage.
Winning the hearts and minds takes time and keeping everyone believing the same thing is impossible. Trying to make everyone believe the same thing and all be the same level of obedience to religious authority is a bit rich and not very likely. The characters should have character and not all be clones believing the same things to the same extent.
Cultural power always has a limit, especially on the peripheries.
I really must add something.
In 782 the ideological reach and power of the Catholic church was not as extensive as is portrayed.
Yes, even amongst the Franks. There would be heresy and pockets of beliefs contrary to the rising Catholic hegemony. Why? Because it was a rising hegemony at this stage.
Winning the hearts and minds takes time and keeping everyone believing the same thing is impossible. Trying to make everyone believe the same thing and all be the same level of obedience to religious authority is a bit rich and not very likely. The characters should have character and not all be clones believing the same things to the same extent.
Cultural power always has a limit, especially on the peripheries.
This is true to an extent. Charlemagne was not made Holy Roman Emporer until 800, and in 782, iconoclasm was a hot topic of concern, and Arianism (the Christian sect, not racist skinheads) hadn't completely died away.
The variety of belief in today's Christian churches is staggering, and we have internet and global communications, so of course they would be fragmented, but in 782, except for a few of the extreme sects, there were several core beliefs that all Christians acknowledged: the Trinity (Arians denied this tenet of faith), the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, one baptism (though it was the custom to wait as long as possible so you were as pure as possible when you died), forgiveness of sins (though the idea that that forgiveness could be bought in advance or on behalf of someone who had already died was becoming popular), and others.
However, a lot of pagans, used to polytheism, just adopted Jesus as another god, or followed Jesus and their pagan gods, thinking they could do both at the same time, and a lot of missionaries encouraged that world view as a "starter Christianity", figuring they can eventually wean them off their other gods.
The general populous was illiterate and attended church services performed entirely in Latin and Greek when they knew how to speak or understand neither. As such, they only knew what the priests taught them, and a lot of priests used that power to teach wrong things on purpose, to benefit themselves monetarily.
However, your post DMUtB makes it sound like we have all created a bunch of one-dimensional characters in this regard, and I think it's way too early to make that sort of assessment.
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I understand it was a complicated time (aren't they all?) and plan on trying my best to portray it as such. However Charlemagne's brutality towards pagan Saxon rebels and vice versa (on nominally religious grounds) is pretty well documented. The fact that the pope was apparently under Charlemagne's thumb/protection also has to be considered, as does the fact that he was gaining more land for his empire in the process of conquering the Saxons. He was also removing a dangerous neighbor rather than let them constantly raid his towns and farms. I'm sure it was a matter of simple conquest as much as it was a religious thing.
I'm not Catholic, and I honestly don't know as much about the church aspect of that time period as I do the military/political stuff. I know nothing I come up with is going to be 100% historically accurate, but I'm going to do my best. This game is intended as a learning experience and a bit of fun for everyone. Anyone involved is free to share additional sources of information relevant to the history for the rest of us to enjoy.
Charlemagne used a top-down model of conversion. Conquer the people, convert their leaders, and they will convert their people for you. In addition to spreading Christianity, a cause any true believer endorses (making disciples of the nations was Christ's last command to his followers before he ascended), it had the practical benefit, at least in theory, of pacifying the barbarians. Forcing Christianity on the Saxons was a way of assimilating them. Cultural conquest is far superior tactically than complete military conquest: there's less resentment, you don't need a massive overseer military to keep the conquered under control, and you don't have to kill everybody, garnering yourself a larger workforce of people to tax.
Are there any existing Pathfinder-compatible 3pp stuff that's designed for a magicless, RL campaign like this?
Are there any existing Pathfinder-compatible 3pp stuff that's designed for a magicless, RL campaign like this?
The only stuff I know of I already included, in the form of the Tripod machine classes.
With Avatars
Reolus of Fulda
Caedmon Fisc
Leodegar
Gunthar von Eschbronn
Fredegarh
Gozolon of Ulm
Pippin of Augsburg
Lo the Incautious
Interested
DM Under The Bridge?
A couple interesting articles I've been reading:
Carolingian Weapons and Armour
In reading these, if we want to improve historical accuracy, the costs for weapons and armour need to be tweaked a bit from the CRB.
"1 pound = 20 shillings = 240 pennies...The shilling was a reference to the solidi, the money of account that prevailed in Europe before the Carolingian Reform.
So 1 soldi = 1 shilling = 12 silver coins.
"Whereas the price of a helmet was set at six solidi in the Lex Ribuaria, and that of a byrnie at twelve solidi, a shield and lance together cost only two solidi."
So that makes a helmet 7 gold pieces and 2 silver in PF reckoning (in that 10 silver coins=1 gold coin), chainmail would be 14 gold and 4 silver. A shield and lance would only be 2 gold and 4 silver.
The problem is that without info on people's incomes it's hard to make it a meaningful conversion. If anything I was going to add an asterisk to the chainmail and scale armor. But in the interest of game balance, I'm going to leave it as is.
Agreed. I was more interested in the statement that okay the richest of the rich had scale mail, and few had chain, suggesting that chain should be priced like breastplate, and scale like full plate (as a rough guess).
Longswords were also extremely rare, suggesting maybe falchion pricing (again, rough guess).
I've been thinking about the trajectory of this game and have planned out the general arch of the story. At most this will go until 785 chronologically. After the initial winter we might do some stuff with mass combat and skip large periods of time. I want to represent the battles that took place accurately as I can, but unfortunately the historical information is sparse on details. We'll see how things go. I'm estimating this game will go for around 1,000 posts, though if people do a lot of role play it could go longer.
Sounds good, very excited. You could always fill in the in missing bits with your own version what happened making an interesting mix of history and fiction, staying true to the facts that we do have.
This is going to be great to role play. It's such an interesting mindset to have to take on play these characters in the harsh world they lived it.
Still chipping away at Lo's character sheet. Need to finish off the weight of equipment, plus a few details regarding backstory and appearance, but I hope to get things completed relatively soon!
Gozolon is being transformed into our token infantryman. I should be done within a couple of days.
I haven't done a complete survey of the entire game system, but I was thinking through what sorts of situations we might come across in this game that would require saving throws. Most saves are made to resist spells or supernatural abilities, which we won't encounter.
Here's my list. Can anybody add to it?
Fortitude: poisons, diseases, extreme weather
Reflex: catching oneself when falling, avoiding RL traps like pits and snares, miscellaneous natural hazards like a rockfall
Will: ??
Will saves to resist addiction perhaps. Or to avoid a nonmagical fear effect.
Intimidate uses a skill check versus static number based on the target's Wisdom score. Is there a feat or class feature that lets you cause fear resisted by a Will save?
Addictions are treated like diseases, so Fortitude to "cure" them.
Word. Quick, everybody dump wisdom! :p
You'll still need it for survival and perception though.
Guys I'm going to have to withdraw - just not getting the time to fully flesh out my Saxon convert.
Have fun and enjoy - will likely be a mighty game
Cheers
Would you object to me crafting some of my equipment?
If by some you mean swords or armor, you'd need to have a backstory consistent with someone having that level of skill. Charlemagne's swords and armor were considered state secrets and few knew how to make them. They were so nice that there was a black market for them, and they've been found all over the place despite laws against their export. Essentially you'd have to be a smith, which if you were a smith, why are you fighting?
If it's something less involved like a wooden shield or leather armor or something simple like that I'd be a lot more lenient.
I meant to ask that, too. Specifically I took a rank in Craft-Medicine, hoping that would let Reolus make his own healer's kits.
I'm thinking bows for sheer practicality's sake. I was thinking about building a Martial Artist focused in archery but the more expensive composite bows are not going to be available easily without some crafting involved.
That’s fine.
Cool, running with the idea.
Does the double price rule for longbows apply to crafting them?
Yes, and there are no composite longbows.
Gotcha, you might want to take that off the list of gear then. I'll have my crunch done shortly then I'll set about familiarizing myself with the period enough to write up a compelling backstory.
Derrp. Nevermind, I forgot I put it on there. I originally wasn’t going to but a couple sources mentioned them having Roman style composite bows.
Derrp. Nevermind, I forgot I put it on there. I originally wasn’t going to but a couple sources mentioned them having Roman style composite bows.
One could say that those Ronan bows are represented in game by the composite short bows.
Shouldn't javelins be on the list of allowed weapons? I am pretty sure the Carolingians trained with them from a young age. Plus weren't they used a "short" time later at Hastings? And the Romans definitely had them. I'd like to have some.
Shouldn't javelins be on the list of allowed weapons? I am pretty sure the Carolingians trained with them from a young age. Plus weren't they used a "short" time later at Hastings? And the Romans definitely had them. I'd like to have some.
I've definitely seen references to javelins being used against Charlemagne (though can't remember where). Makes sense they'd use them too.
The Breton units within Charlemagne's army consisted of javelin-throwing cavalry units that rose up, hurled javelins, then broke off to reload.
Plus, I bet they supplied delicious crackers.
They actually used heavier spears at this time period. I've read how other nations remarked on the heaviness and size of their spears, which they mostly used for thrusting. Shortspear and Javelin are essentially the same thing, except a 10' less range increment. Which I feel is an accurate representation of Frankish spears which could be thrown, but were too heavy to be used that way ideally.
The Roman javelin was the pilum as far as I know, but there are hundreds of years separating that from Charlemagne.
The Breton units within Charlemagne's army consisted of javelin-throwing cavalry units that rose up, hurled javelins, then broke off to reload.
Plus, I bet they supplied delicious crackers.
If you can point us to a source for this, and Gozolon wants to be a Breton I'm fine with that.
"The archeological evidence is apparently consistent with this view, in that the ango, or javelin, is rarely found after 800,197 while the lances found in eighth-century graves are large, heavy weapons which seem unsuited to being thrown.198 Nevertheless, that the Carolingians still used the javelin is evident from the will of Count Eccard of Macon, who bequeathed not only two sets of “scuto cum lancea,” but also “dardo I,” almost certainly a light throwing spear.199" - Source
If you can point us to a source for this, and Gozolon wants to be a Breton I'm fine with that.The Breton units within Charlemagne's army consisted of javelin-throwing cavalry units that rose up, hurled javelins, then broke off to reload.
Plus, I bet they supplied delicious crackers.
Absolutely! I got that info rom the third page of the "very informative article on Charlemagne's military" you linked in your first post of this thread. It was very informative. ;)
Alright, javelin it up if you should so please.
How about hand grenades? I have it on good authority that they were in use in Britain in Arthurian times.
Ah, you of course refer to the holy hand grenade ;)
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Ok. Coming very late to this game, but if I have time tonight I have to submit a PC for this game. I am just getting back to the US from a vacation where I had no computer and almost no internet so am behind in reading the recruitment lists.
Even if I do not get in I think I will follow this list. I have already learned quite a bit of history from the recruitment and am enjoying the reading.
My idea for a character is a fighting man who has been educated for some reason. Perhaps his lands included a small church that was founded by an Irish father a couple hundred years ago and is still noted as a place of learning where second sons might go to to study before taking priestly vows. The character, among his other duties as a youth was required to learn his letters and attend to his studies, thus allowing the Lore Warden archetype. Thoughts?
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I have to ask about the use of the Tripod Machine classes. One class has abilities like Speak with Animals. Other abilities reference Identifying Magic Items. And overall I believe, based on a very quick review, that they are a little over powered. Multiple Full BAB classes with full sneak attack progression for instance. And a D12 class with full BAB and an animal companion at first level. I am curious as to why these are being allowed.
Did I misunderstand? All all 11 of these available for this game?
Lo is, to most intents and purposes, finished. All that's missing are stats for his horse and mule. I won't have time to get that finished before the deadline, as I'm mad busy today with training for a new job.
I have to ask about the use of the Tripod Machine classes. One class has abilities like Speak with Animals. Other abilities reference Identifying Magic Items. And overall I believe, based on a very quick review, that they are a little over powered. Multiple Full BAB classes with full sneak attack progression for instance. And a D12 class with full BAB and an animal companion at first level. I am curious as to why these are being allowed.
Did I misunderstand? All all 11 of these available for this game?
I picked them over normal PF classes, because as a whole they are far less magical. I honestly didn't take the time to do an in depth review of all them first. Anything magical is out, period. As for the classes being OP or whatever, I don't believe in OP. We're not running a pre-published adventure path. If the enemies are too hard or too easy I will adjust them accordingly.
Only the Tripod classes, fighter and barbarian are available.
Lore warden archetype is fine. Fighting clergy were certainly not unknown.