I'm less interested in the mechanics of the game than with the flavor. This being the case I'd like to see what others think about the flavor of the Magus?
My own oppinion is that the Magus lacks a distinct "feel" when compared to the other classes already released. Obviously the Magus is a combination-type class (Wizard/Fighter) but at the moment it seems like it adds nothing flavor-wise that can't be achieved with a multiclass character. Compare this to the Ranger (Fighter/Druid) or the Paladin (Fighter/Cleric) which both introduce unique elements that make them more than just a mix of the 'parent' classes.
I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas about how to make the magus more unique?
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I'm less interested in the mechanics of the game than with the flavor. This being the case I'd like to see what others think about the flavor of the Magus?
My own oppinion is that the Magus lacks a distinct "feel" when compared to the other classes already released. Obviously the Magus is a combination-type class (Wizard/Fighter) but at the moment it seems like it adds nothing flavor-wise that can't be achieved with a multiclass character. Compare this to the Ranger (Fighter/Druid) or the Paladin (Fighter/Cleric) which both introduce unique elements that make them more than just a mix of the 'parent' classes.
I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas about how to make the magus more unique?
There's probably been more than a few threads on this already. You should look for them. I don't think I've talked about the flavor in those threads, but I will do so in this one.
Different people have different desires. A lot want a duskblade for Society play. Others want a more traditional fighter/wizard, except that they were not good or fun to play at low levels, so the magus was suppose to be an answer of sorts for that.
I want a bladesinger. This class fills that flavor wonderfully. They fight 1-handed. They can cast in armor. They can cast and attack in the same round. I really think the best and easiest solution is just to gave Sudden Quicken (or the PF version of that) to this class, and increase the usage numbers per day) for like...3 per day or maybe one use every 4 levels.
To make it even more unique, give it things that other classes cannot easily do (like Sudden Quicken), channeling touch spells like a duskblade, give them arcane bond as a wizard, make their weapons intelligent.
These things are what I want. However, the class would still be terrible if those abilities are too weak.
There's probably been more than a few threads on this already. You should look for them.
I've been looking around at various threads and some that i've seen have talked about aspects of the class's flavour, but many of them go more into the mechanics. If you could point any specific ones out that'd be great.
I guess what i really mean is the "fluff" of the class. At the moment this aspect is really limited to describing the Magus essentially as a wizard with a sword (or a fighter with a spellbook). What i'd really like to see is a more unique and flavorful take on how the magus gets her spells and how these are integrated with her swordplay. This would (i think) be possible without even changing any of the mechanics (although i agree that some changes to these would be good - afterall that's what the playtest is for).
For example, what if the Magus inscribes her spells on her weapon rather than using a spellbook? or had to perform a ritual cutting herself with her weapon either once, or at the start of each day in order to cast spells through it? - Something to more closely link the Magus with her weapon to make her more distinct thematically from other classes.
This being the case I'd like to see what others think about the flavor of the Magus?
vanilla bean
vanilla bean
I was thinking more Rum and Raisin myself.
vanilla beanI was thinking more Rum and Raisin myself.
Sharkleberry Finn
Sharkleberry Finnvanilla beanI was thinking more Rum and Raisin myself.
These sharkleberries taste like sharkleberries!!!
I think the magus should have some kind of Jedi flavor. They're kind of like monks, but a lot less subtle. Maybe a scholarly knight organization.
Sharkleberry Finnvanilla beanI was thinking more Rum and Raisin myself.These sharkleberries taste like sharkleberries!!!
I think the magus should have some kind of Jedi flavor. They're kind of like monks, but a lot less subtle. Maybe a scholarly knight organization.
/waves hand
"these aren't the Duskblades you're looking for..."
Geb and Nex are both magocracies that have been at war for a long time. I can totally see magi being marshals in their armies, especially at higher levels when they can be trotting around in full plate.
There are probably schools of magi, war colleges and the like, where there is an even split between studying tomes and practicing fighting. Some feats might be a cool way to specify what colleges a magus was trained at.
I don't think "knight" is correct term. Most of them seem more solo then organized. Also think about the history of such classes, mostly Elf based. These are the warrior mages (warrior monk :p) of the elven people, leading the way along side Rangers into new lands or to retake ancestral lands/cities.
You could get schools or academies amoung shorter lived raced, following the writings of a fallen Elf Magus of passed ages. Which I see more like fencing schools then anything else, with a focus on the art and form over practical fighting. After all the way the Magis studies spells the same way, by form and procedure.
Combat forms are highly ritualized, following adapted arcane formula.
You could get schools or academies amoung shorter lived raced, following the writings of a fallen Elf Magus of passed ages. Which I see more like fencing schools then anything else, with a focus on the art and form over practical fighting. After all the way the Magis studies spells the same way, by form and procedure.Combat forms are highly ritualized, following adapted arcane formula.
A good fit would be an academy on the same lines of the warmagi: Military discipline with long drills to train combat forms at the day, magic studies at the evening.
For individuals that learned mostly on their own, the "Wizard school was boring. I'd rather beat stuff up with a stick, but I had to put up with it anyway so I made things interesting" feel is nice.
A good fit would be an academy on the same lines of the warmagi: Military discipline with long drills to train combat forms at the day, magic studies at the evening.
For individuals that learned mostly on their own, the "Wizard school was boring. I'd rather beat stuff up with a stick, but I had to put up with it anyway so I made things interesting" feel is nice.
I don't completely agree with a military/army flavor nor a separation between arcane study and martial study pre-1st level. I know the OP wanted to avoid mechanics but there are things to consider.
Flavor wise, drills would likely include both somatic gestures with the off-hand along with weapon positions or strikes. Vocalizations would be close to Verbale spell componets in intonation and structure.
One flavor reason why the Magus is worse then say the Ranger at base combat is because the fighting style of Blade and Spell is handicapped by what would normally be seen as superfluous gestures and embellishment, but which are actually heavily modified arcane rituals. In a formalized school an apprentice would start with basic weapon drills (focused one handed) and separate arcane study, but I guess fairly quick the two would start getting combined. By "graduation" a Magus has defiantly leared how to manipulate existing arcane energies (held touch spells) along with enough coordination to actually land a blow.
Remember it is Weapon and Spell, not weapon or spell for the Magus. They do both at the same time.
To me the Magus would likely be the militant class for advanced, but frail races. Drow, Elves, Githnazis, darkstalkers, aboleths, etc. Races that have vast amounts of magical power already, so why have mundane soldiers?
Magus would likely be something like Special Forces, or some other elite segment. Being Int based rather then Cha, it would probably not be a very political class, and would require some form of protection or distance from the whims of the ruling classes.
I also hope that the final version can use natural weapons, ranged weapons, (Hand crossbow, I'm looking at you)and work with a variety of monstrous races.
The flavor, to me, seems to indicate a person who has been educated in a normal fashion for a wizard, but is also a talented warrior, but bucks the system and "walks the earth" trying to find the best way to incorporate the two into one fluid "style".
That's what I got from the fluff.
The flavor, to me, seems to indicate a person who has been educated in a normal fashion for a wizard, but is also a talented warrior, but bucks the system and "walks the earth" trying to find the best way to incorporate the two into one fluid "style".
That's what I got from the fluff.
I agree that at the moment that it how the fluff works. My problem is that it could just as easily describe a wizard/fighter - essentially its kind of boring. I really like Dorje Sylas' take on things with "drills" including components of spellsraft with fighting style (although I think "stance" or "form" might be a better name for it?) I've never liked the flavor of casting 1-handed and weilding a sword in the other hand - love the fact that in Dorje's idea the swordplay is part of the spell.
I'd like to see what others think about the flavor of the Magus?
Elric Floater.
My own oppinion is that the Magus lacks a distinct "feel" when compared to the other classes already released. Obviously the Magus is a combination-type class (Wizard/Fighter) but at the moment it seems like it adds nothing flavor-wise that can't be achieved with a multiclass character.
It's about as vanilla as a fighter or a wizard. Those aren't very specific, either. Note, though, that the magus can do both at once, something no multiclass fighter/wizard can.
Maybe the list of magus abilities will grow and allow some more unique things, but in general, it will be the the ability to blend sorcery and swordery (like sorcery, but with swords) not just in the old "I buff myself and then beat you up" sense, but by treating it as two weapon fighting, with one weapon being magic.
Compare this to the Ranger (Fighter/Druid) or the Paladin (Fighter/Cleric) which both introduce unique elements that make them more than just a mix of the 'parent' classes.
I think it's rather that rangers and paladins are their own thing. Sure, a ranger is a warrior (just like a fighter) and has some abilities reminiscent of druids, but fighter/druid doesn't come close to describing a ranger. They're warriors/hunters/stalkers/scouts, sometimes with sniper thrown into the mix.
Paladins might be more martially-inclined clerics at first glance, but again, I see far more in paladins as a class combo.
Sharkleberry Finnvanilla beanI was thinking more Rum and Raisin myself.These sharkleberries taste like sharkleberries!!!
I think the magus should have some kind of Jedi flavor. They're kind of like monks, but a lot less subtle. Maybe a scholarly knight organization.
I like that idea. I had a similar one with the runeblade where there were three different schools elven dwarven and giantish with different styles of runes for each
I think it's rather that rangers and paladins are their own thing. Sure, a ranger is a warrior (just like a fighter) and has some abilities reminiscent of druids, but fighter/druid doesn't come close to describing a ranger. They're warriors/hunters/stalkers/scouts, sometimes with sniper thrown into the mix.Paladins might be more martially-inclined clerics at first glance, but again, I see far more in paladins as a class combo.
That's kind of the point i was trying to make. At the moment its just a wizard/fighter. I think that it needs to be "more its own thing" (to borrow you phrase), otherwise i don't think its unique enough to be a base class.
To put it another way I don't want to be able to say that the Magus is just a Wizard/Fighter just as i can't with rangers or paladins (as you agree). I would like the magus to be as distinct from a wizard/fighter as a ranger is from a druid/fighter, or a paladin is from a cleric/fighter.
That's kind of the point i was trying to make. At the moment its just a wizard/fighter. I think that it needs to be "more its own thing" (to borrow you phrase), otherwise i don't think its unique enough to be a base class.
The thing is, the warrior arcanist is such a pervasive concept that it probably deserves its own class. And then you add the fact that Pathfinder isn't really that good at handling the concept with the stuff we have, and it seems this class can work even without the benefit of total uniqueness.
And then there's the fact that so many people have been shouting for a class like this since 3e was first released that the class will be used an awful lot (provided the game mechanics are sound, of course).
I think the magus is going to fill a couple niches. In a large party that has all the "traditional" roles filled (tank, healbot, arcanist, skillmonkey), it can be a great 5th character, tanking as needed, blasting as needed, and doing both at once to really shine.
In a smaller party, of maybe 2 or 3 PCs, the magus can fill the role of both the tank and the arcanist, so the other PCs can fill the roles of skillmonkey and healbot, or maybe also have take on multi-niche roles.
Heck, there has been so much desire for a gish class, or fighter/mage class, that I bet they could publish a Book of Gish with 10 or 20 different takes on the concept. It would be so successful, they would even be able to pay off WotC for the Gish name!!!! ;-)
What I would like to see is more of an emphasis on the Magus casting in combat. If the mix of melee and spellcasting is his shtick, then the magus should be really good at it, and less good at the standard "cast behind a meatshield" mechanic. Perhaps the magus should get an extra bonus to the effect of his spells (either a caster level bonus or perhaps a DC bonus since his spell DCs are a little behind a full caster) when casting in combat.
I think some magus arcana that provide small, but constant bonuses would help even out the magus being "out of spells" too quickly. I was thinking that maybe there could be magus arcana that provide small bonuses for holding onto a spell, so for example perhaps you get a modest AC bonus for having prepared an abjuration, until that spell is cast, rather than burning a spell for a modest AC bonus. Arcane weapon getting pushed up to earlier levels might accomplish this too, although doing both might be a bit extreme.
I think also if you are going to emphasis stabracadabra melee combat in this class, then the range of melee weapons should be expanded. If being in melee is your thing, then you should have a decent spread of weapons and fighting styles. It could cost feats or magus arcana if you want.
Also I wonder where the spell school flavor is. Are all magi generalists?
The Magus on the other hand is a fully martially oriented caster much like the old Warmage. He has little to no interest in the minuitae of magic where it does not directly pertain to battle. He's not interested in schools of magic, his interest in whether this spell will help HIM win his battles...
I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. School specialization could be a way of viewing combat tactics. You could be a fighter who specializes in abjuration, or you could be a fighter who specializes in divination, or necromancy, or enchantment. Each is a flavorful way of approaching combat, emphasizing a different method. That's not to say that there aren't universalist magi, either. Arcane magic just tends to have specialists.
The Magus on the other hand is a fully martially oriented caster much like the old Warmage. He has little to no interest in the minuitae of magic where it does not directly pertain to battle. He's not interested in schools of magic, his interest in whether this spell will help HIM win his battles...I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. School specialization could be a way of viewing combat tactics. You could be a fighter who specializes in abjuration, or you could be a fighter who specializes in divination, or necromancy, or enchantment. Each is a flavorful way of approaching combat, emphasizing a different method. That's not to say that there aren't universalist magi, either. Arcane magic just tends to have specialists.A Wizard who approaches schools however is more like a physcicist... he can get himself lost in obscure arcane theory for hours on end.
The Magus on the other hand is more like an engineer. While he can deeply study magic his interests are more immediate and focused.
More like one is theoretical and one is practical. I still don't see how being practical about magic doesn't end up in school specialization, with a magus believing something like "necromancy PWNS!" and building his fighting style off that.
I've always been curious to the attraction to classes that merge two or more classes into one single class. What is the attraction? The Magus, flavor-wise, appears to be a d20 adaptation to the cursed 2E Bladesinger kit. I say curse, as once that kit came out, all but one or two players wouldn't play anything else...got REAL boring and tedious to GM.
I'm not knocking players who wish to play Magus type classes, just curious about the attraction. Is it due to how fantasy archetypes are presented in CRPGs and MMORPGs? Or is there something else to it all together?
For me its all about being able to melee (which I prefer) but get to sling spells as well.
Because an Engineer isn't as interested in theory or departmentalization. When a Magus looks at magic, he doesn't care much on whether a spell is evocation or necromancy, or the differences between the two. which by defintion IS the prime interest of a Specialist. He's looking for practical results.
More like one is theoretical and one is practical. I still don't see how being practical about magic doesn't end up in school specialization, with a magus believing something like "necromancy PWNS!" and building his fighting style off that.
I see that as the magus choosing to be a generalist/universalist. Its akin to fighting styles. Your magus is like a mixed martial artist. While one with a necromancy specialization would be like a practitioner of mantis style kung fu. Saying that all magi are "mixed martial artists" artificially narrows the breadth of choice IMHO.
Edit - that's not to say that a magus' spell book being full of necromancy spells doesn't accomplish this as well, but I think that emphasizing spell schools adds more.
Do the run down of fantasy villains, a number of them both use magic and go sword to sword or staff with the hero. It is hardly a "modern" wish and you'll need to finback to as early as 1st and 2nd Edition. What you get from CRPGs and other sourced is the echo back from that early pen and paper RPG fantasy.
Multiclass characters offer a change, and that's all some people want. Something they haven't played 100 times 100 different ways. other will test its ability to be over powered and take or leave it on that. You'll get the other spectrum that like the roleplay of the fighter/mage, magus, or bladesinger.
For me it's simple. I like the idea of a swordsman breaking the sterotype and learning some magic to aid him in combat. instead of the big dumn fighter, you have the smart, magically gifted fighter.
Multiclass characters offer a change, and that's all some people want. Something they haven't played 100 times 100 different ways. other will test its ability to be over powered and take or leave it on that. You'll get the other spectrum that like the roleplay of the fighter/mage, magus, or bladesinger.
For me it's simple. I like the idea of a swordsman breaking the sterotype and learning some magic to aid him in combat. instead of the big dumn fighter, you have the smart, magically gifted fighter.
I agree during my play tests of the magus it was like an old friend coming home. The magus really captured the spirit of the 1e/2e fighter-magic user. I have complete confidence Jason will smooth out some of the problems with class features and we will end up with a good class for those of us who remember 1e and 2e.
Doug