The Emerald Spire

Game Master Stormstrider

Yeah, pretty much everything is in the handy haversack.

Move action retrieval ftw!

I'm good with the 24hr rule. Thought that was a generally accepted thing, didnt realize it isn't a houserule in all PbPs

I’m fine with the 24 hour rule.

Agreed on the 24hr rule.

*Returns poolside*

yes to the 24-hour rule idea.

Good

I DON'T UNDERSTAND and I AM CONFUSED?!?!?!?

Why on earth do people make a post in the Discussion tab while it is their turn in the initiative, BUT THEY COMPLETELY IGNORE THE GAME-PLAY AND TAKE NO ACTION?!?!?

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And on the 24 hr posting rule during combat - 5 of 6 have said yes, so that's oficial and I am going to implement that immediately!

Raziel, PM sent for character clarifications please. The last character entry into Hero Lab! Yay! :-D

Just a heads-up:

For personal reasons 4th of July is always a bad time for me mentally/emotionally. It can get bad the few days leading up to it, and may go on 2 - 3 days afterwards as well. So if I should happen to get mean or nasty or whatever in a post (Especially if it doesn't sound like my usual 'diplomatic' self) please be aware and try to 'tolerate' it? Or point out to me that I'm crossing the line. Hopefully I won't. I don't think I ever have, but, this year it seems to be worse than usual. Most likely the whole being unemployed for 4 months now is not helping my emotional state at all either, and I suspect that has a big part with it seeming to be worse this year.

TLDR: So, please, just bare with me, and I'm sure we will get through this.

Will do.

Stormstrider, as a side note, what I meant by using Disable Device in this particular case is due to this info for the skill:

Sabotage Mechanical Item
You also can rig simple devices such as saddles or wagon wheels to work normally for a while and then fail or fall off some time later (usually after 1d4 rounds or minutes of use.

And assuming that to be able to carry out this action, you need to understand what the supposed function of the mechanical item is. This was my reasoning for using Disable Device here.

Of course you can rule this is not a simple device. Just wanted to clarify my reasoning.

Raziel, This lever is definitely not as simple as a wagon wheel or any such thing. Once you know what it does you will understand that I'm sure. It has various gears and moving parts, but you cannot see any of that of course. All you can see is a metal lever, that goes into the metal base & it's hole on the platform.

As to what kind of knowledge to use? With that description being all that you currently have, not even the engineers that designed the international space station would be able to tell you what this lever is for. Obviously it is designed to activate something / somewhere. But that is the only thing that could be discerned by studying only the lever.

Now if, one were to get down in the water and look under the platform, you would then see some of the gears and that it moves from there into the western wall. But then again it is out of your sight after that.

Perhaps exploring the area further may reveal some device that could possibly be activated by the lever?

And then again, you all may never figure out what the lever does.

Don't worry about it too much. It is NOT essential, or even necessary, as to completing things here. Just one of those proverbial 'bones-to-gnaw-on' sort of thing. The lever is of course part of the module, but they didn't even indicate it's location on the map! That should indicate something of it's importance (or more like 'lack-thereof') to you.

Hope that helps.

Players please read.

I must admit to being rather pissed off, which will be quite obvious from what i have to say.

In the combat just over I think I put all 4 enemies asleep with the slumber hex, which does-

"Slumber (Su)
Effect: A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level.

This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."

This is a powerful effect that had the GM complaining and thinking about finding enemies that can't be put to sleep. Totally without justification as nobody is finishing off helpless enemies.

If I successfully slumber someone you have 5 rounds to coup de grace them. Due to the way the coup de grace rules work that is essentially an automatic kill.

More than 90% of the time it is the right thing to do to coup de grace a slumbering enemy straight away. If it is the most dangerous enemy it is always the right thing to do. Like the Bunyip.

There are 5 other PCs and you have 5 rounds and nobody did it. That is 25 opportunities and nobody does anything. I made a post asking others to coup de grace sleeping enemies and still only one mephit got a coup de grace. All the enemies should be dead 4 or 5 times over.

Because of the astonishing level of incompetence of my fellow players I took my very squishy witch, very unsuited to the task, over near the enemies to get rid of them before they woke up.

The post read in part-

With that the witch, taking her own advice, dives underwater in search of sleeping mephits. Game mechanically, Boudacia will spend a round swimming to where the closest mephit fell, then coup de grace it next round with her dagger.

And I somehow wound up next to the Bunyip and getting hurt. Now my character is OK and there is no harm done in the long term.

But it didn't have to be. Slumbering enemies left alone will wake up as dangerous as ever in 5 rounds or if someone helps them to awake. This should never happen and it should be extremely rare for a slumbering enemy to survive even one round. It isn't the first time I have had to urge other PCs to finish off slumbering foes. We got away with it this time, but if it was a really dangerous fight such ... inefficient combat tactics [to use a polite term] could easily lead to disaster.

Can the other players go back to the beginning of this post and re-read it. If there is something you disagree with or do not understand would you say so and we can clarify it.

Boudacia You are correct to some degree. There definitely was a lack of the best possible combat tactics used in this encounter.

However there are some things I need to address.

First of all; it has been an entire FIVE DAYS since you posted, and then when you finally do decide to re-join us, the first thing you do is put up a big 'hissy-fit' (to use a polite term) about nobody using proper 'combat tactics'?!?! No mention of you being gone or any apology for not posting sooner? That's very impolite to say the least. Bad form Boudacia.

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Then you complain that:

"... nobody is finishing off helpless enemies."

"... and nobody does anything."

"...only one mephit got a coup de grace."

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Really?!? Again allow me to quote you:

"I put all 4 enemies asleep"

So if there were 4 enemies that you put to sleep when this started "and nobody does anything" then how was the bunyip the only one left?!? There were THREE mephits and ALL THREE GOT COUP DE GRACE'D!!! Get you numbers right please. So something was being done, just not the best choice of tactics and some of that was due to no posting and me having to make choices when I botted players!

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And then I personally take offense at this statement:

"This is a powerful effect that had the GM complaining and thinking about finding enemies that can't be put to sleep. Totally without justification as nobody is finishing off helpless enemies."

Without justification?!?! Really? How many times now have you put my bad guys asleep over the course of this campaign? How many times has an encounter been over in 1 round because of your slumber? I have not kept count, but MANY, MANY TIMES!!! I was not referring to just this encounter when I made that statement! And by the way, again, there were THREE helpless enemies finished off in this encounter alone. Not to mention how many times I've had to post that my bad guy keeps on sleeping, which means my bad guys have lost an action?

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So Boudacia, get ahold of yourself. If you're going to make complaints, get your information right first. And keep things polite & 'diplomatic' please.

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Everybody: Once again, it is true that there was a lack of proper combat tactics here. That was partially due to a lack of players making their own posts and me having to bot them. The final round in which I had to bot HALF OF THE PARTY I even specifically stated I was bending the rules slightly to try to encourage players to make their own posts!

I should’ve said here that I was holding my initiative. I’d gone down fully intending to CDG the bunyip, but once Uriel decided to play nice with it, I felt like “I swim up and stab it in the head anyway.” Would be a jerk move in character and out. So I was waiting to see what others did. With block initiative, I didn’t think I really needed to say anything, just let the others go, but I see now I should’ve said something OOC so the GM knew I was still paying attention.

Thank you, Chalkou, for your understanding of Uriel’s motivations and respect thereof.

Boudacia’s player, I apologize for irritating you with Uriel’s tactics. There will be natural friction between our characters, especially when it comes to moral decisions, and I think it makes the game more interesting.

I try to have Uriel act as strategically or tactically effective as possible within the bounds of his character, keeping in mind only what he knows. I tried to explain a bit along the way— he spent a lot of time in the hallway making sure others weren’t swept away, it was against his code to kill a sleeping creature that had not attacked them, and he couldn’t hear Boudacia’s second bit of advice as he was already underwater setting up to CDG the mephit.

I don’t mind if Uriel’s actions irritate Boudacia, but I personally do not want to irritate Boudacia’s player. I try to avoid this by ooc explanations when possible. I will try to be more clear in the future.

... but I see now I should’ve said something OOC so the GM knew I was still paying attention.

Thank you for the entire explanation Chalkou, but - from me as the GM - especially THAT line.

Everyone, please keep in mind that in a PBP setting like this it is literally impossible for myself and the rest of the players to know what you are thinking other than that which you have written in your posts! This is not like a tabletop where I can tell by the look on your face, that there is something else happening in that brain. I can't. None of us can.

And like Uriel said, There will be misunderstandings and frictions. I hope we can keep them all limited to frictions between characters (which can make for great roleplay!) And understand that hopefully nothing said here is meant (or taken) as a personal insult or assault.

It all boils down to this: Communication.

And along that line, let me just say, I am NOT going to put up with having to bot half of the party. I will declare a pause in the game first, until it becomes less than half. And I should never (Except under some unusual circumstances, sickness, death in the family, travelling, etc.) be having to bot the same player more than once in the same encounter. When we all signed on to this game it was with the clear understanding that DAILY posts were to be the norm. And that is 1 post from EACH player & the DM on a daily basis. Yes, things happen. I get migraines, people go on vacations, computers/internet crashes, Paizo crashes, etc. etc. But those are NOT the norm, yet somehow in this game I usually only see 1 or 2, maybe 3 new posts in a whole day. I know that at least one of you (I get confused if it's Chalkou or Raziel? I should have made a note somewhere so I could remember!) is on vacation until the 15th so their posting will be spotty at best. Okay. They had the decency to tell us ahead of time. But I invest a lot of time and work in this game. Those maps we use? I have to edit each one of them so that you all cannot see the marks for the traps or secret doors, & such. And pardon me for tooting my own horn, but I don't just do a 'half-ass' job to cover them up. I do it well enough so that even their own designers would probably have trouble seeing it. Feel free to take a look at The Second Level of the Emerald Spire. The map on the left is the original, and the one on the right is my 'cleared' copy. Feel free to zoom in as close as you can & compare the areas with traps & secret doors to the same areas on my cleared map. Not to mention all the spell templates I drew/created (yes, there have been some minor errors, but at least I tried!) And also creating new drawings to represent certain unique spells such as the Aggressive Thundercloud and the Spiritual Weapon.

TLDR: Sorry. All that is to point out that I do a lot for you all. I care about this game and my players. Yet, some of you seem to show little interest in the game. Maybe I am just too dedicated to this.

My vacations are still going strong until the 15th (I am the one) , though even if they were not, my CDG would be less than effective underwater (I have done the math).

I will address the rest when I am back. Thank you for the DMPC Stormstrider!

I have played in games where simply stating that you aid another provides a +2, I think maybe an old house rule in my brain, so I will make those rules in the future.

Me - dead to everyone right now.

Job interview for Wendy's Friday 7/5 @ 3:30. Working before 5pm of same date! Closing. On feet for over 7 hrs (1/2 lunch in between where I did sit). Clean 3 grills (2 1/2 of them while they were still on! VERY VERY VERY HOT) before the night is over. Just got home a lil after 1 am. Feeling like I got heat exhaustion or some such & might throw up at any moment. Going to try to get some sleep now, but mind is running at 1,000 MPH, while body is running at about 1/2 Mph if that! AND trying to come to a complete stop!

And the GM already scheduled me to do the same for the next 3 nights at least!

So, my body is going to need to do a little bit of adjusting (READ: A whole Crap s$%! f+#&ing LOT of adjusting! So, not totally certain I'll keep up with posts at first (Didn't even read the new ones for tonight yet!) So please bare with me, and we will get this show on the road as soon as I can!

Raziel - DMPC ??? Meaning please?

So Lonam, your going to "make the rules in the future" huh? Interesting! - Hahaha! I know what you meant, but it's funny! :-D

DMPC = Player character run/played by the DM ;)

Question for everybody: Have any of you had any experience with Roll20? If so, what did you think of it please?

It came up in conversation in my live game today and I was going through the tutorial somewhat while we played, and I think it could work well for our maps possibly. From what I read, players would not be able to accidentally move the map or make any changes to it as they move their icons, and movement of icons could be tracked (for confirming the distance moved or the path taken). Also each icon could have counters included showing current HP status with the icon, as well as counters for either ammo (arrows, bolts, javelins, etc.) or spells used/left (Magic missiles especially I'm thinking).

It is free in its basic format allowing everything I have mentioned so far and I would just import the maps I have made into there from what I understand.

It looked like it had some very interesting possibilities to me, but Uriel told me through private conversations that it worked well on his laptop, but was very jumpy for use on a phone. I know some of you, maybe most if not all, use your phones to look at the map, but it seems to me like all of you have trouble with moving your icons on your phones anyways, so I don't think there would be much difference in that aspect.

Thoughts please everyone?

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On a different matter, I just want to point out to Boudacia & Raziel that I did include images for your familiars on the map currently, since I figured you would let them out of the tight confines of the satchel while you tried to rest. Since they typically don't come into play during encounters I won't usually have the images there, but just thought it kind of fun & nice to include them when possible. I happen to like the idea of having familiars personally.

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And for Lonam, I just learned of a Cleric feat today, that you may wish to keep in mind for the future - Purifying Channel. It sounds awesome! Our cleric in my tabletop game was helping to kill ... I forget what they were now, wights? Or some sort of undead - while healing the party! It was great!

Boudacia, I sent you a PM.

Wow! that is in a Paizo book also, not third party. I like it.

I have not used Roll20 but know some con buddies that have bragged on it, it's probably worth trying at the very least.

Roll20 is fine.

Mapping via mobile is basically never good, so having no access and a better zoom method than GDocs would be worthwhile for me.

Already have a Roll20 login, so that's no barrier to entry.

I'm working on trying to figure out how to get my maps to align with the grid on Roll20. Having a bit of trouble with that aspect so far. If anyone has any info or suggestions I'll gladly welcome them!

It also appears we could even use Roll20 for the entire PBP game process possibly. IF I can get the map to align that is!

EDIT: I finally got the map aligned properly! Yay! Trial and error for now, which I'm sure I'll have a lot of with a new system! But I still believe this could be a much better system overall. We shall see.

And we can always keep the old system if this doesn't fit our group, or use Roll20 for just the maps. Whichever seems to work best. I have no loyalties to the Paizo system as much as it has screwed with me!

Have seen Roll20 in use for some other of my games over the years. Never actually used it myself to GM. But even the free version looks really good and solid.

I’ve used Roll20 for other games. It’s fine. Perfectly serviceable. Also, today’s been busy, I’ll try to get a post up in the morning.

I went back and checked, I have used Roll20 but over a year ago, I liked it.

I just got home from work about 1:15 AM. I am too exhausted too think of a proper post right now. Sorry. I'll get to it after I take my rest period - Which hopefully won't get interrupted by any mephits, bunyips, elementals or any nasty nightmares either! ;-)

Good news/bad news. I was told last night at work that they have approved me for full-time (38 + hrs.) work. Its better for me financially obviously, but harder on me physically & less free time for gaming. Not to mention probably more time needed for physical recuperation.

Gratz on the job, GM.

Yep, big congrats there Stormstrider!

Group Invitation to comment:

Via PM I have talked with Boudacia's player about the Slumber Hex. I feel it is too overpowered and Boudacia reluctantly agreed to some degree. I made a suggestion that as a house-rule we change it from "the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level." to be instead 'The target sleeps for 1 round per two caster levels' instead (& always round up in player's favor). So in other words for 5th & 6th level, targets would sleep for only 3 rounds. Boudacia has graciously (though understandably somewhat reluctantly of course) said she would be willing to accept this compromise.

Thoughts? Comments?

Slumber Hex is perhaps the main reason I never actually played a Witch - having that power and not using it is simply strange. You will always be tempted to use it at every possible instance. I fear being transformed into a one trick pony...

For the same reason, I am not familiar enough with it to provide an educated opinion on your ruling. My first instinct here is to say 'play it like it is' just because. After all, we are fighting water based creatures in a watery environment, which is almost as bad as the slumber hex :P

In any case, your ruling does not seem THAT harsh - if it is good enough for Boudacia, it is good enough for me.

Meh.

Either way works for me

My witch in a Reign of Winter game uses it less and less now, but it's especially good when stealth and quiet are called for. Or when you face notoriously poor will targets like giants.

I suppose if the creature making the Will save receives some additional difficulty it would be a fair adjustment. The Slumber Hex is a stock & trade item for the Witch, nerfing it takes away from the contributions of the witch in the party. The sleep spell is 100ft+10ft per level range, the slumber hex is only 30 ft. Sleep is 1 minuter per level! A slumber is only one round per level of caster. Sleep is the first AOE spell available but Slumber only affects one creature and if the Witch is clever enough to pick creatures with low Will saves, then it's effective. If the Witch casts against a strong willed adversary in a big fight, that will be less effective and if it does work can turn the tide of a difficult fight. I think this is a mistake because if we lost a big fight later because that bad guy gets to wake up early. I think that the Slumber Hex is balanced as written, it is one target spell, if the bad guy saves they are save for 24 hours, a bad guy ally can rouse the sleeping target as a standard action, so can move to and wake up in same round with no fails.

I know you have been generous to the party in helping with making choices, but I think this one will end up biting us in the butt down the road at some point.

Lonam does make some good points, but Boudacia's DC is already 19 and will be going up more. So the low Will saves is kind of a mute point. They actually have to have a decent number just to have half a chance. And before Lonam, Raziel, & Ilya - even before Chalkou as well - joined the party, Boudacia had been making very effective use of her slumber already. Many a fight has been finished within 1-2 rounds due to it.

I'll meditate upon it some more for now.

Didn't get home 'til 2:30am. Had to grocery shop after getting off of work about 1:30. VERY ROUGH NIGHT AT WORK!!! Several times thought I might faint from heat/exhaustion. Almost had a nervous breakdown. About lost my temper with the manager. NOT good.

Will do my best to post tomorrow sometime before going to work. NEED SLEEP! AND PAINKILLERS!!!

Slumber Hex is perhaps the main reason I never actually played a Witch - having that power and not using it is simply strange. You will always be tempted to use it at every possible instance. I fear being transformed into a one trick pony...

I can see Raziel's point but don't agree.

There are lots of things you can't put to sleep and lots of things will be out of range. One reason Slumber is more effective here is we are almost always inside, so the short range is less often a restriction. And Slumber was less effective in Mended Wall's campaign where Stormstrider and I met, as there were lots of undead who make Slumber a waste of time.

I started a thread on this site about how Witches were under rated and at low levels were the most powerful full arcane caster. And at the levels most campaigns actually reach, and you can normally get to in the Pathfinder Society, are at least a good power option.

The reason is that many hexes work the same way Slumber does, once/day per enemy. This gives Witches much more stamina than other arcane casters and means they can preserve their spells for things you can't hex.

In the abstract I agree with Lonam and Raziel. And it is worth noting that Slumber Hex has been around since 2010 and Paizo have not changed or restricted the Hex, when they have changed many other things for balance reasons. And being the best all round Hex, if you nerf Slumber you nerf the Witch class.

However, the effectiveness of me putting lots of enemies to sleep is something that has been making our GM Stormstrider miserable for some a long time. It is his campaign and if he wants to introduce a house rule I am fine with it.

And reducing the duration from, presently, 5 rounds to 3 does not render it useless. It just means we need to be more organised at coup de gracing sleeping enemies.

On which subject, I made an intemperate post on 5/7 about not finishing off sleeping enemies. The point true enough, they should very rarely be allowed to wake up, but the post was kind of excessive and rude and I apologize. Sorry if I offended anyone.

And thanks to Uriel who did a fine job acting as peace maker.

Thank you for that post Boudacia! I really appreciate it!

Still meditating upon the 'Slumber' idea at this point. I do appreciate the input from the rest of the players as well on that.

Just a reminder that today (Sunday) is my 'Tabletop' game, and I'll have to leave that game early because I have to go to the 'Torture Chamber' (Work) from 4-close, so you won't see much more activity (probably none) from me here today.

Okay, enough venting for now! Sorry guys! I'll get to the game-post sometime on Monday.

I probably won’t get a post up today. As soon as I get off work I head home, change clothes, then head to a live game that’ll keep me out ‘til past midnight. Will catch up Tuesday.

I probably won’t get a post up today. As soon as I get off work I head home, change clothes, then head to a live game that’ll keep me out ‘til past midnight. Will catch up Tuesday.

Thank you for letting us know. I do appreciate it! - AND I'm jealous of you having a good live tabletop to play in! My tabletop used to be in person, but our DM had to move away, so now we still play 'live' but virtually/online via Discord. Lots of 'fun' when everyone tries talking at the same time!

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On a separate note, I was just re-reading the Aquatic Terrain rules and I realized that - if I'm not mistaken - I have been playing it partially incorrect! Referring specifically to the section: "Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Land-bound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects." So, improved cover (+8 AC & +4 bonus on Reflex saves) if they are mostly in the water, but if completely submerged you cannot attack them at all (with attacks that require an attack roll) due to Total cover? Is this correct or am I missing something?

Stormstrider- You have my sympathies, for what it is worth, over your job. It is bound to be bad for your health, so I hope you are able to find something more suitable before too long. Fortunately you have gaming to keep you sane.

It seems you may be correct Stormstrider, though I find it completely brutal...

I was wondering about the other way around - creatures in water attacking creatures on land?

Thanks Boudacia! And yes, gaming is DEFINITELY an important distraction from the harsh realities of my life!

And Raziel, yes, it does seem quite brutal, which is why I asked. I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.
But you make a most excellent question! I don't currently know the answer, but will certainly look into it.

Still trying to figure that one out Raziel. I haven't forgotten.

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Boudacia? I'm curious, do they have Walmart in Australia?

No we don't have Walmart in Australia.

But Walmart apparently wants to try and establish themselves here.

We have a most unhealthy situation here where 2 chains, Woolworths and Coles, are a duopoly that controls most of the supermarkets. And they use their market power to push around rural producers, other businesses that supply them and generally behave unconscionably.

Aldi have been trying to move into Australia and have been finding it complicated. But they are big, cashed up and patient. I like Aldi and do some of my shopping there on principle.

Stormstrider, I know you are very busy, when you have a chance I sent you a PM.

Stormstrider, I know you are very busy, when you have a chance I sent you a PM.

Sent you a response (& rambled a bit!) this morning.

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