Well - if you want to change that blight hex then its up to you. You can always adjust your spell list or spend some money on scrolls for new spells.
As for the stat thing, I think a headband of interlect should fix the job. You're under WBL - maybe Deimus can throw one at you?
Speaking of magic items, would it be cool if we were to make our own if we took the appropriate feat?
Leveling Windle up is tentatively as follows:
L7 feat: Deadly Aim. Kind of a no-brainer, for an archer.
Can now cast L3 spells, but only 1/day. Looking at coordinated effort (because giving Grigor and Valiard the benefit of Windle's Outflank or Precise Strike feats is no bad thing) and righteous vigor (reconfiguring spell list to buffs that clerics and witches don't get).
Skill increases:
Diplomacy
Intimidate
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Religion)
Perception
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Survival
Any thoughts?
Deadly Aim is a great choice. That is definitely quite handy.
And Outflank is an awesome feat as well. I really don't like teamwork feats because I feel like a lot of them are useless, but I like that one.
And you aren't lacking on skills, that's for sure. We might not be able to whoop anything but man when it comes to skills, we are untouchable!
Now, if we could just find a way to turn these skills(knowledge preferably) into a deadly weapon, we'd be unstoppable! :P
I can tell you that Iozef has a +17 to Dungeon and Religion, though. Just letting you know in case you want to do something else with those 2 ranks.
I think Stealth would be greatness! That's cool, I didn't realize Inquisitors had Stealth. Heck yeah, multiple sneaky characters is never a bad idea.
@DW: Take a look at this spell for an example.
Now, d20 doesn't have the whole write up. It has the meat of it, but they didn't put the first part in it.
Here it is:
In order to prepare this spell, a caster must spend an hour performing a ritual in which he beseeches Torag(or a member of his family) for the aid of one of his divine family members. For 24 hours after the ritual, the caster may prepare spells of the requested deity. The caster may only attune himself to one additional deity at a time.
This spell is from Dwarves of Golarion. Would it be alright to roll with something like this?
Sounds good.
What about Craft magic items feats? Are those alright to take?
Mmmmh... I would day it detracts from the main plot. I never really liked the idea. Magic items should be special. So no unless the character's concept is build on it.
That said, scrolls and potions are fine.
If you feel you "need" certain items, I can keep it in mind as I plan.
By the way, don't cloistered clerics get Scribe Scrolls? That could help you with the limitation on casting, among other things. The group has not taken great advantage of buff spells so far.
In a way, the characters need to evolve with the story, learning to act more as a group than as individuals, complementing the strengths of others.
Mireza's spell, used against the Spawn, was a nasty one, just not against that particular creature. Against others, it could wreak havoc...
Mireza's spell, used against the Spawn, was a nasty one, just not against that particular creature. Against others, it could wreak havoc...
The problem with it is that it's a "you stay over there, we stay over here" spell. She has no control over the frogs once they're summoned, and the swarm fills a 10 x 10 space, which means if Valiard and/or Grigor want to attack they'd be taking damage too. It eliminates the possibility of a flank, which is what Valiard's build relies on. It's a poor spell for this party's "get close as quickly as possible" tactics.
It's really only useful in situations when there's a bad guy simultaneously within 40 feet and unable to be reached in melee for some reason. Good for shutting down spellcasters, due to distraction, but not anything the melee types would be willing to take a risk on getting caught in due to the poison effects. I'd say it would have been useful vs. the middenstone baron, but she couldn't get close enough to cast it in that battle. It can be an encounter-ending spell, but only in a tightly-defined set of circumstances which is vanishingly unlikely to occur.
It seems to be Paizo's policy that the boring spells that give you a +1 to attack or +2 to an ability score or +3 to AC are always useful, but the fun ones are only workable once or twice over the course of an adventure, which is why no one ever takes them.
In a way, the characters need to evolve with the story, learning to act more as a group than as individuals, complementing the strengths of others.
I don't feel like part of a group. Mireza doesn't like Grigor, and Iozef and Windle are utter strangers to her. She knows nothing about them as people, nothing about their background or motivations, she doesn't trust them, and she's certainly not going to devote her valuable spell slots to anything that benefits them.
I ran into this same problem in another game. There was no group chemistry, and the DM asked 'Can't you all pretend like you've gotten to be friends off-camera?' And, no, I really can't. I have no idea of what kind of group dynamic we might have developed in the time we "skipped over" from Carrion Hill to here. Apparently other people can do it, but I can't even imagine what kind of relationship Mireza and Grigor might work out without actually working it out.
Actually, Joana has hit the nail on the head.
Grigor doesn't care for Mizera either - we never took a shine to each other with our backgrounds as they were and it sorta went downhill (a bit) from there. He tolerates Iozef but dislikes his personality thinking he is 'mouthy', Valiard is ok - though Grigor still thinks of him as only a knife wielding herbalist who may have done some knife work in his past who just happens to have balls of steel (hasn't seen much else. Valiard has been careful on that score). Windle is fine - he keeps himself to himself, doesn't make comments that deflate Grigors ego etc.
Grigor is a bit of a prick. It was ok for a one off game but may not be the best personality for campaign play.
Again, I'm happy to make a few changes if people want.
I can try something else at the Lodge - We aren't hurting for skills. We are all massively skill intensive. I can go for a friendlier straight fighter (been wanting to fiddle with an Aldori Swordlord concept) or maybe another ranger, this time with a wilderness vibe, again, a bit friendlier. Heck, I can try a Magus or with 7 levels maybe even a Eldritch Knight if you guys want to add some additional arcane capability AND give Mizera access to more spells.
I actually really like Grigor as a character. He's a lot more interesting than Mr. New Guy PC Who is Inexpicably Trusted By Everyone and is Instantly Willing to Put His Life on the Line for Virtual Strangers. But I think that we did basically put together a party full of loners. Mireza trusts no one but herself and her spider, having come from a background of being exploited; Grigor is a maverick even on the force; Valiard has a secret identity; Iozef is used to being alone with his books; and Windle's basically Internal Affairs for the church and operates alone because no one else is above suspicion.
I'm not saying we can't come to see ourselves as a group rather than a rather uncomfortable conglomeration of prickly individuals, but it certainly won't be a quick or easy process and I can't envision what it might look like when we do. Until then, I think it's asking too much to expect us to function like a well-oiled adventuring party. By book 3 of an AP, an organic party has been through a lot more together and had much more time to get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses than we've had.
I don't know that replacing Grigor because he's difficult is going to do much to improve the group dynamic. We're all difficult. He may be a grouchy SOB, but at least he's a grouchy SOB we kind of know. We'd have to start all over with someone else. :)
We're all difficult.
LOL - well said.
Whats the next step you think? We're in OoC mode here.
He tolerates Iozef but dislikes his personality thinking he is 'mouthy',
Wow. You really do know Iozef better than I thought you did. ;)
As far as what's next...
I say we see what happens. Let's just roll and see what 7th level brings us. Who knows? Maybe it will change.
If nothing does, then that means we're probably all dead. :P
And I am still having fun flailing away.
Now that the spider is out of her web, I think that we all have something we can work together to deal with...especially as she will likely be eating us soon.
*shrug* Mireza actually has no interest in tracking down a big spider-thing that would have posed no threat to us if we hadn't been stupid and marched right into her lair. It's like throwing rocks at a bear and then claiming that we have to fight it in self-defense because it charged us. But then she doesn't have anything to contribute to the fight anyway, so you guys might as well go and find the thing by yourselves.
I think she's just probably not a good fit for the campaign. There's a big difference between fighting a monster that's invading your town and going out into the wilderness to look for monsters to fight, and the latter just isn't something she has any interest in. It's just unnecessary. She's not an adrenalin junkie like Valiard.
Whats the next step you think? We're in OoC mode here.
I don't know. I've been in games where all the PCs really cared about each other and got along well and in games where they constantly insulted one another, and both can be fun. The problem isn't so much that the PCs don't like each other but that there's just a blank between them: no relationship at all. Some groups of PCs just don't hit it off; you can't force a group of people to have chemistry. If you've got a strong NPC or organization that they're all working for, or a really imminent shared threat, it doesn't matter so much; business or an emergency can explain why the PCs are working together even if they're not friends, but quite honestly, I don't really know what our mission statement is right now. There's some book ... that's evil or something ... and someone else can't be allowed to have it because ... some reason? Even if I were on top of it as a player, I don't think it's anything that Mireza would care about one way or another.
One note: I'm in two games with the same DM and the same set of players, save one. In Serpent's Skull, we were all shipwrecked together on an island with some NPCs and we had encounters and exploring and things to RP every day, and we felt really bonded together after just a few in-game days. The same group in Jade Regent still feels like utter strangers to each other at level 3, due largely (IMO) to the fact that Jade Regent is set up with a 'random encounter' framework where, if the dice don't come up right, you just say "17 days pass, and then...." In seventeen days of traveling together in a caravan, the PCs and NPCs ought to get to know each other really well, but when you skip over all that time because there aren't any encounters, the relationships never actually get forged.
I don't think the answer is to play out seventeen days of nothing happening in real time, but for that reason, I think a campaign needs a "hot" beginning: frequent action to get everyone involved, but not constant fight-fight-fight with no downtime (which is where we were in the Carrion Hill module). When a group's been together for a while and everyone is comfortable in their role, it's fine to have 'You travel for three weeks and then arrive at the Cliffs of Insanity,' but when you skip over that much time at the beginning, you miss the chance to argue and make up and discover which PC is your character's BFF and which one you avoid whenever possible because they rub you the wrong way. The problem is that we're jumping into an AP at the 'you travel for three weeks' stage, when as a party we're still at the 'so where are you from?' stage.
Oh yeah, I know. I think it's a perfect assessment to be honest. Because you see him such a way, means I'm doing something right. :)
Fair comments Joana. If I understood them coorectly, they bring me back to the motivations of the characters. They have had interactions and I would say that the players have a feel for them. They were collected as loners, put together for political reasons, and sent to die fighting a monstrosity.
Problem is they survived, so the town wants them gone.
Some characters had a person to find and a book to retrieve. The others have tagged along; an unlikely group of unlikely survivors.
Now we get to the current situation. Windle, Iozef and Grigor have a reason to find Baveshk, but what about Valiard and Mireza. Why would they not settle in another town and set up shop, possibly together? What ties them to the others? Perhaps because despite their flaw, there is something to like? Perhaps they never had a cause to stand for, and they find that going into the sewers, slide in middenstone vats and be caught in a poisonous cloud while stuck in a web is much more than the brochure said it would be? Is it just that something have stirred inside, a thirst for knowledge, for the forbidden secrets hidden in the Void?
You don't know what is ahead of you. If all goes well, Baveshk is in Ascanor Lodge, you get the book, slap him around and depart. But what if he isn't? Would you keep looking or say good luck?
I can't find a reason for all the players to have a strong motivation with the plot, without risking having you roll your eyes. It is true that the casting was not the best one for an AP. We don't have to keep going. Was it someone in this group that said games often start great, but they need a good end as well. Instead they just fizzle?
Let me know. I'm not tied to the game. We set out to play Carrion Hill, and we've made it. I hope with enough fun.
Well I think this group of players has been fantastic and if we decide to start a new campaign with new characters to bond together. I would agree that now is the time to end this one rather than forcing the issue.
So do we move to Carrion Crown, but start with new characters? Or go to a different AP? I honestly don't care either way. For me it has always been the interaction with the DM and the other players to create a narrative, everything else is costume and stage.
To be clear, I have had bad experiences with that kind of way of working things out. If we end this game, we end it. I'll take a few days to evaluate if I wish to start a new one and which one (AP, module, which one, etc.), then go for recruitment. I found it builds stronger foundations.
I've got to admit, I really like this cast of characters. I fear if we quit and start anew, it might not be the same.
I feel like Iozef can/will/has the potential to make a difference. I REALLY like this character. I like the chemistry between the lot of them IC.
What? You say there is no chemistry? No one really cares for no one? While that might be true, WHY can't there be a sense of chemistry in THAT? Odd, I know. I don't understand it myself. But for some weird reason, it makes sense to me.
This is an odd group, yes. An DW makes a good point about Valiard and Mireza. What does keep them from setting up shop and moving on?
How about curiosity? Maybe that in and of itself is enough. Why not? Is it more or less a cheesy reason? Sure! Probably. But if it's worth keeping what I think is a good bunch of characters together, why not?
You don't get this kind of chemistry among players like this very often. Especially to where the pc's seem to interact perfectly! No matter how bad you thing Grigor is, Helaman, everyone here can work with him. He is not the problem you think he is. No matter how BAD you think he is, he's just not. Or if you adamant about him being such a jerk or whatever, then I say look at the players around you and say to yourself, "Well, these cats are pretty cool. They don't sweat me. It's not often you find players like that." Because it's not. I know from experience.
If you stand back and look at the big picture, WE CLICK! No matter how odd this group is, we click. I feel if we start over in a new AP, with new characters, whatever, we're gonna lose that.
I know Mireza seems at a loss in this whole thing. John said it best when it comes to what would help her. She needs more spells. Getting only 2 spells per level makes it tough. I don't know what's involved with getting spells, but I'd wager it costs a ton of money which we don't have at this point. Now, I'm not gonna sit here and say, more spells equals everything's all right with the world. It might help, it might not. If nothing else, it gives Mireza more options. I'm not sure what it's gonna take to make it all right with the world, to be honest.
But if nothing else, Joana, I'm gonna throw my "cheesy" curiosity reason at you. :) I know it's not something you're more than likely not a fan of, heck, maybe no one is, but it's something. It's at least a reason, if nothing. But I don't want to force into playing someone you feel like you're not gonna have fun with.
Like I said, I'm comfortable with Iozef and comfortable with all of you. I like all of these characters. I can totally see Iozef "growing" in this experience. He's realized the spells he always kept handy back home, aren't gonna get it done out here in the wild. He's learning. He's adapting. I'd be interested to see where this takes him.
I know this group isn't your "standard" group, but I'm willing to give it a chance and see what happens.
It's just a matter of if you folks want to.
Well... that moves me back to 50-50. After all - we haven't died yet.
Here's another way to look at it.
I was in a game playing a barbarian who grew up in a "war zone" so to speak. It was the LoF AP. The DM had an NPC lady who was paying us to help her get rid of gnolls.
Well, Zerekias had gnoll killer trait because that was part of his backstory. He hates them with a passion.
Anyway, it came to a point to where the DM's npc lady said, "You have to do as I command." Well, he wasn't interested in that. This guy was a barbarian, who lived a difficult life, not very sociable, and not interested in taking orders from some citified lady. BUT, he was more than willing to help because it was gnolls. Wouldn't you think that would be good enough?
Well it wasn't.
The DM basically said to me in a pm, if you don't follow her commands, your character will have to leave.
So, I stepped out of the game. I don't think I managed 50 posts. I don't like DM's that TELL me I have to do this or that when it comes to my character's actions. That's not how the game is played. EVEN THOUGH, I was MORE than willing to aid in the cause. It had to be his way or the highway. Sure he offered me to roll up a new pc, but I had no desire to do that. Plus, that wasn't the point. I built this guy for the AP. Actually it was for Entombed with the Pharaohs. But either one would work, really.
My point is, we're not being FORCED to do anything. It's something we get to choose to do as a group, if we want. When there are DM's out there that pull that kinda crap, and the fact that we DON'T have that kinda DM, could be another reason for us to keep going. At least give it a shot.
Again, does that make the character fun in and of itself? Probably not. But I'm just throwing an experience out there that I had, that makes me appreciate the DM's out there that don't force such things upon us.
At least we get to be adventurer's for adventurer's sake.
I certainly don't want to kill off everyone's characters, least of all my own. I like Mireza; if I were to retire her, I'd want a happier ending for her. She can die just fine on-screen.
So... Victory or death?
|
I'm with you, Javell. This is an odd lot of characters, and you're all fun to game with. That said, it may be that we're going to put a lot of work on DW, adapting the AP to better allow us to come up to speed, and I'd like to be sure he's OK with that.
DW, your breakdown of motivation suggests another possible option--maybe the party stays together long enough to get to a place for Valiard and Mireza to settle down, and then Grigor, Iozef, and Windle are joined by another couple of people with a mad on for Adivion Adrissant. Maybe make them the survivors of a group that came through the previous parts of Carrion Crown, or something like it? I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
So... Victory or death?
Well, she's neither going to suddenly blink out of existence or morph into a different PC in the middle of the forest. She's part of the party for the foreseeable future anyway.
I don't think that Valiard's fate should have to be tied to Mireza's. By all accounts, ZetaGilgamesh is thoroughly enjoying his character, and I don't think he should have to jump on her funeral pyre, if such a thing comes about. After all, all that's been said is that they kissed once; that hardly has to mean they're mated for life. It could be like the tacked-on romantic subplot in a poorly-written movie, where you leave the theater thinking, 'Well, I give that relationship six weeks.' ;)
Orrrrr.... You and he are BROTHER and SISTER?! Seperated from birth to hide you from your darkly armoured anti-paladin father?
Has that been done already?
LOL! WHAT A FANTASTIC IDEA!!! I TOTALLY LOVE IT!!!
But I'm not sure why I'm so gung ho about it though. Hm.
Who's scruffy looking.
Valiard wouldn't part ways unless he found a place to settle down. Rest assured, none of these small towns are going to be big enough for his purposes. For now, he is content to simply travel, break into homes and poke around, and annoy the law when he gets the chance.
I see Valiard as being restless, rootless, and without a purpose after he got run out of town. His entire life now amounts to his wits, his daggers, and his trade goods in the back of the wagon. All his connections, all his customers, the comfortable life that he had built up around himself, those are all gone.
He is doing his best to hold himself together, but his mind strays down darkened paths every now and again.
So like many others who have experienced trauma and dramatic events, Valiard is simply latching on to whatever anchor he can find. So as bad as it sounds, this group is Valiard's last refuge, his last tie to the life he had, and he is very loathe to give it up.
I can totally see Valiard as such. Totally.
Scruffy looking, that is. ;)
I'm not sure what's unresolved. I'm frustrated that my PC has been ineffectual. Combination of bad luck with the dice and suboptimal build choices. Not much to be done about that.
We're not a well-oiled tactical group. Frankly, at this point, we shouldn't be. Our PCs are all used to operating alone. Yes, we "won" Carrion Hill, but it certainly wasn't through tactical acumen or demonstrated strengths. A not-inconsiderable portion of that is down to bad luck with the dice again. I've never seen anyone roll so consistently poorly as Grigor has. If he had stepped up and been the hero, we'd probably have rallied around him; instead, he seems to have come out on top due to sheer pig-headed stubbornness rather than any innate talent as a fighter or leader of men, hardly anything that's going to inspire us to hitch our wagons to his star. We're not a group; we don't think like a group; and we won't until we have any actual successes to our name that cause us to believe our fellow party members are worthy of our loyalty.
As to motivation, as has been said, Iozef, Windle, and Grigor all have built-in reasons to stay on mission. Valiard has stated his mindset. Mireza's only here because she likes Valiard and she has nothing better to do. Honestly, I as a player have no understanding of what the plot hook is supposed to be. I don't get the importance of the book or what the bad guys are going to do with it or what we're supposed to do with it if we get it back, which makes it difficult to figure out a motivation for a PC.
I know this is off topic, but I'm curious.
With the Weapon Finesse feat, does a player have the option on whether or not they want to use it?
Or is it mandatory once you've selected it as a feat?
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
"May," not "must." I'm guessing if you got a belt of giant strength or something that raised your Str above your Dex, you could choose to use your Strength modifier. You might choose to let someone else use the belt so as not to have wasted the feat slot, though.
I am sooooo wanting a Belt that increases Dex. If I can get that it will be a help.
That said, I don't see it on the cards for a while so will save my money for now and splurge later. Hoping we get a big WBL correct before we go into Ep 4 of Carrion Crown which is full of Cthuliod goodness.
Okay, I'll bite.
What the heck is "Cthuliod"?
Edit: I actually read may but I figured it best to ask, just in case.
"sheer pig-headed stubbornness"
That sounds like a powerful feat!
Good point Joana. I'll try and make the hook so far a little clearer. It might not work that well for all of you, but it got three characters' attention.
Ah, I see.
I've heard of Cthulhu but I have no idea what that entails. About as much as I understand Ancient Egyptian. :P
|
|
I believe Grigor has a personal issue with AA unrelated to anything that happened when tracking down the Spawn. As for Iozef and Windle, as I understood it the Keepers had this book (the Pnakotic Manuscript) that contained the ritual they used to summon the Spawn. However, they had obtained the book with the help of this Adivion Adrissant person, and AA wanted it back for his own doubtless-nefarious ends. The Mayor's pet scholar juuuust happened to also be AA's agent, so when Iozef and Windle skillfully left the book with the aforesaid pet scholar, scholar scarpered speedily back to AA with book. Iozef and Windle saw what a few semicompetent arcanists were capable of with the book, and immediately realized that in the hands of someone who knew what they were doing it could be incredibly dangerous. (And Windle, at least, feels guilty for not noticing the agent and leaving the incredibly dangerous book with him.)
Hmmm. Maybe that's a hook for Mireza and Valiard, once they realize it--AA made it possible for the Keepers to get the book and summon the Spawn, so if it wasn't for him they would still be happy (or at least somewhat contented) citizens of Carrion Hill.
Hm. When I get a chance I'll have to check into it. See what this Lovecraft business is all about.
@Warforged: Did I learn anything from this Knowledge check?
It's about 15 posts up, or so.
I'm sure you get nice dreams from it...
I know it's heresy around these parts, but I never got the appeal of Lovecraft. There's no action because there's no point in fighting because everyone's doomed anyway. Perhaps I've just glanced at the wrong ones, but it seems like your typical Lovecraft story can be summed up as "We found a city full of horrible monsters and then everyone went insane, the end." It's like Wuthering Heights. I've never been so disappointed in a Bronte.