The way you said you upgraded sounded like you upgraded it using Crafting to change it from a Pistol into a Revolver.
Varrell and Urdavan you have to get to the same room to do anything. i dont know your position so you can't act. Reason i had not sent a map is because you are both in your own towers. all you can do is blast walls and curse floor tiles until you get to the main tower and i know your positions. I assumed you both left your towers and began the trek up the stairs to the main tower. check the game play thread for where you are. the map and then you can take action because you are not together and do not see each other.
I am happy with Urduvan's breakdown. If possible keeping the same actions would be preferred due to time difference.
Varrel is a glass cannon specialist in save of lose. Uradavan needs to kill me quick or he'll be dropped soon.....
Varrel, Urdavans odds of passing are much greater than the straight statistics he posted. Not due to error, but due to the game mechanics posted.
Hero Points can be used before the fact to add +8 to a die roll. This is *huge* or +4 after the fact.
This knocks the chances of any save or suck caster way, way down especially in the early rounds of the Arena.
If you are both fine with the break down then keep going.
If you are both fine with the break down then keep going.
I am, and I'm sure he is.
@Varrel - you're probably already aware of this since its your spell, but I'll say it just to be safe (since I had to go look it up myself). Shield does not help your CMD, since it provides a shield bonus, which is not a type that applies to CMD as well.
Nicos, let met know when you can play next and I'll try to meet you here.
I'm on Eastern Standard time (-5).
Varrel, Urdavans odds of passing are much greater than the straight statistics he posted. Not due to error, but due to the game mechanics posted.
Hero Points can be used before the fact to add +8 to a die roll. This is *huge* or +4 after the fact.
This knocks the chances of any save or suck caster way, way down especially in the early rounds of the Arena.
Yep. I hate hero points, but oh well.
Maybe i'll get lucky and he'll roll a 1....
Hi. finally back and setting up for the battles to come.
I noticed to issues.
@Varrell the Imp has to make UMD rolls to use the wand. His UMD seems to be off. 11 +cha of 2 should be 13. Imps dont get a +3 bonus to the skill. familiars have their own set of class skills.
@Urdavan the jingasa did you buy it? the DC to craft it is 35 and would be to high for you to craft it just taking 10.
@Urdavan the jingasa did you buy it? the DC to craft it is 35 and would be to high for you to craft it just taking 10.
We had this discussion above. The DC is 30. 5 base + 15 minimum caster level to have all the spells (so the minimum for the item) + 5 for not having divine favor + 5 for not having moment of prescience = 30, which is exactly my take-10 craft check.
Hi. finally back and setting up for the battles to come.
I noticed to issues.
@Varrell the Imp has to make UMD rolls to use the wand. His UMD seems to be off. 11 +cha of 2 should be 13. Imps dont get a +3 bonus to the skill. familiars have their own set of class skills.
I have 11(+3class skill) ranks
So talon is 11+ 2(his cha mod)=13
I'll update the sheet and start him making checks. DC is 20. Urdavan do you want me to retcon those actions? I just wasted charges since you saved any way.
I thought Familiars counted as using your Spell List for Wands/Scrolls?
Urdavan do you want me to retcon those actions? I just wasted charges since you saved any way.
I'd say waste them, in the spirit of just moving forward we've used for other things, but it doesn't make any difference to me (since, as you said, I made all the doubled saves). It'd probably make the most sense to just retroactively roll the UMD and get back a charge for each failed use.
Chaiboy: The water is actually touching the ceiling (30 feet) prior to its drainage. I actually did the math for water volume in Excel.
I can fill a 120x120x24' area with water. However, the tower is a cylinder, not a 3D rectangle. Therefore, the excess water fills it up to 30 feet.
Since that's the ceiling cap, I've flooded the ENTIRE room. Nicos should be entirely submerged. Some of that might drain off into the peripheral rooms, but the depth is still going to be close to 30 feet.
I am getting conflicting information. It seems CONTROL water can control up to 120x120x24 volume of water but won't create anything. it just controls it. and in that matter it just raises and lowers it at that. So the 15foot wide fountain water would just raise up and flow out across the floor. Is there any source that says it actually creates the water?
Urdavan do you want me to retcon those actions? I just wasted charges since you saved any way.I'd say waste them, in the spirit of just moving forward we've used for other things, but it doesn't make any difference to me (since, as you said, I made all the doubled saves). It'd probably make the most sense to just retroactively roll the UMD and get back a charge for each failed use.
if the imp rolls a 1 he can't use it again for 24 hours. So cross your fingers.
I am getting conflicting information. It seems CONTROL water can control up to 120x120x24 volume of water but won't create anything. it just controls it. and in that matter it just raises and lowers it at that. So the 15foot wide fountain water would just raise up and flow out across the floor. Is there any source that says it actually creates the water?
Personally, I'm of the opinion that it does not create extra water. For reference
Raise Water: This causes water or similar liquid to rise in height, just as the lower water version causes it to lower. Boats raised in this way slide down the sides of the hump that the spell creates. If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.
Edit: Ninja'd by the goblin :P
The examples listed for spilling over seem to imply an excess of water to work with and only if that is still included in the area, hence why it says boats slide down the side of the raised portion. I would think it could be raised, and flood out through the whole area, but that it wouldn't immediately create several thousand gallons of water to fill the place.
That would be my personal ruling if I were GM'ing anyway, but I'm not, so that's your call.
That said, it's also a level 6 spell that shouldn't be castable at 11 anyway... I think aquatic bloodline probably has a typo in that regard.
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It seems that paizo hasn't added it to the errata to be changed so it is as listed. Then again if it doesn't create water then it isn't that much of a problem...unless you someone uses it to make someones hot coffee leap out of the cup. it has it's uses but otherwise isn't very powerful outside of an ocean
It is a Transmutation spell. I would allow it.
It's a transmutation effect. It is clearly expanding and reducing the mass of water, similarly to how shrink item can reduce a boulder to a pebble or enlarge person can make a man double in height. If all it did was move the water, it would read more like telekinesis. But it doesn't. It specifically states that it increases the water's depth and floods surrounding areas. THIS WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE IF IT DIDN'T GENERATE MORE WATER.
Remember, it's a SIXTH level spell. That makes it MORE POWERFUL than the likes of teleport, overland flight, magic jar, plane shift, awaken, raise freaking dead and true seeing. That makes it on par with such powerful spells as chain lightning, contingency, flesh to stone, and heal.
It's a POWERFUL SPELL. It's MEANT to be. I was lucky enough to get it as a 5th-level spell thanks to my bloodline.
Feel free to house rule it to the power of a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell in your own games, but I really don't believe that's the way it works.
It seems that paizo hasn't added it to the errata to be changed so it is as listed.
Is that about the typo I mentioned? It is perfectly possible it's the intended way it works, I just don't think it would allow for using it before that level of spells becomes accessible for the class.
All Sorc bloodlines I've seen give bonus spells from 1-9, progressively, at levels that a sorcerer can already cast them.
Aquatic gives a 5th level spell as its fourth, 6th level as its fifth, then another 6th as its sixth. Just seems curious to me. As a GM, I would certainly give a sorc the spells, I just wouldn't let them cast them until they actually get access to 6th level spells in general.
Again though, it's kinda just an odd situation. Definitely would need a GM to decide on it, and I'm not the GM for this, so YMMV.
Paizo designers frequently change the levels of spells in specific situations. This is nothing new. I believe the bonus spells under the aquatic bloodline to be correct and listed as intended.
There aren't many water-based spells in the game. They probably had to stretch it that way just to get it to work, and what's more, to make it seem somewhat worthwhile compared to other bloodlines.
I agree that they are likely the correct spells, and I understand that spell levels often change between spell lists too. However, if it's on the spell list of the class that grants it, I would personally think it is cast at that level.
But, that's just my opinion on how I'd interpret it. I certainly can't say for sure.
Control Water is only powerful in certain situations. This is one of them other times it is really only a minor advantage.
Yes, it's nearly useless in an open field where the water will just rush out into the open, doing little more than getting everyone wet. But in an enclosed space or open sea? That's where it gets fun. ;D
Also, it has a long duration, so one could argue that it CONTINUES generating water to continually fill the spell's area until it is dispelled, or until the duration lapses.
Cleans his gun and goes back to bed, preparing for another morning of tanning.
Preps for her Magus training the next day.
It's a transmutation effect. It is clearly expanding and reducing the mass of water, similarly to how shrink item can reduce a boulder to a pebble or enlarge person can make a man double in height. If all it did was move the water, it would read more like telekinesis. But it doesn't. It specifically states that it increases the water's depth and floods surrounding areas. THIS WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE IF IT DIDN'T GENERATE MORE WATER.
Remember, it's a SIXTH level spell. That makes it MORE POWERFUL than the likes of teleport, overland flight, magic jar, plane shift, awaken, raise freaking dead and true seeing. That makes it on par with such powerful spells as chain lightning, contingency, flesh to stone, and heal.
It's a POWERFUL SPELL. It's MEANT to be. I was lucky enough to get it as a 5th-level spell thanks to my bloodline.
Feel free to house rule it to the power of a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell in your own games, but I really don't believe that's the way it works.
So digging further into this I noticed something that RD brought up. Telekinesis is a Transmutation spell, so is mage hand. Then i find that Polymorph, enlarge and reduce are also Transmutation spells. So they give little clue as to which way they ment it. Control water could work like enlarge and reduce except on water only so that you can take any water source and expand it to the limits of the spell or reduce it.
BUT... The lower water doesn't mention that the water needs to have a place to go. it just "shrinks" the water so that the area of the spell is removed. It isn't pushed out of the area.. that would also flood areas next to it. So as much as a headache as the wording of the spell gives I think they got one themselves trying to make a spell that "grows" and "shrinks" water... I'm open to listening to other views on this. The problem is they made the categories to broad and it is causing confusion.
oops one more to add to my headache. I checked control plant and control weather because there is nothing like reference to make things really fun. Control weather can create weather as long as some of the elements match so a snow storm in winter or monsoon in summer. But Control plant is the same as charm person. you just tell it what to do. Sigh... so control creates new thoughts in someones head out of what you say to them? it seems the only difference between conjuration and transmutation is that the later needs a seed to do it's thing and the former can create without any pre-existing elements
is any match pairs ready? we seemed to have stalled with one out of every match here....
No it wouldn't create more water every round the water lasts for the duration. I would think it would work like enlarge or reduce in that the effect lasts then what ever it was returns to normal. Another reason i think it might just grow or shrink the water is that you must choose one or the other when you cast it. you can't really manipulate the water the way you can manipulate an object with telekinesis or grow and shrink repeatedly to get someone seasick for instance. Although being able to take a body of water and lift it up and have it rush around smashing objects would be much much worse. although I think a ruling like doubling and halving the volume of water would have been much cleaner and i'll use in future tournaments as a house rule. The way it works now i could cast that on someones glass of water and fill the entire inn...
And a final thought on teh subject. if it just made the water raise without increasing the amount of water it would leave a pocket of air under it that....
Although here's an interesting question. can i use it to make a bubble of air by reducing the water in the radius of the spell or would more water just flow in?
Put a glass of water in the arena, rather than the fountain.
Would we still have the argument?
The spell is called control water, and it is based on the second edition spell lower water. The idea is that you can control water in an area.
If you raise it up, (in an ocean, etc) water from the sides will rush in.
If you raise the water in the fountain, the only source of water is the pipe feeding it.
If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.
Notice that it does not create or raise water in area of riverbanks, beaches or other land. The water that *is* raised can spill over to it.
15x15x22 is roughly enough to let cover the arena in about 5' of water.
On a separate note: The 'power' of the spell level has nothing to do with it. Cast a spell- get the effect described. A spell gives the effect required. Cast a fireball on a fire elemental and nothing happens, whether its a fireball or a delayed fireball blast.
Although here's an interesting question. can i use it to make a bubble of air by reducing the water in the radius of the spell or would more water just flow in?
Actually, if Telekinesis is a transmutation effect too, I would think Control Water makes more sense as just... well, controlling the water then. You pull it up from its original spot, or otherwise push it down into the ground. Raising a spot out of an ocean means it leaves a hole, which then would get filled back in with the surrounding water.
Then again though, polymorph stuff falls under transmutation too, so there's precedent for a few different things. Moving/Altering it would both be possible claims.
I dunno though, I've already said I don't think it sounds like it is meant to create (or expand, if you will) the water it effects, but I can certainly see where the rules can get murky on it.
*shrug*
Put a glass of water in the arena, rather than the fountain.
Would we still have the argument?
The spell is called control water, and it is based on the second edition spell lower water. The idea is that you can control water in an area.
If you raise it up, (in an ocean, etc) water from the sides will rush in.
If you raise the water in the fountain, the only source of water is the pipe feeding it.
If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.
Notice that it does not create or raise water in area of riverbanks, beaches or other land. The water that *is* raised can spill over to it.
15x15x22 is roughly enough to let cover the arena in about 5' of water.
On a separate note: The 'power' of the spell level has nothing to do with it. Cast a spell- get the effect described. A spell gives the effect required. Cast a fireball on a fire elemental and nothing happens, whether its a fireball or a delayed fireball blast.
I think we are saying similar things. So if we go back to the glass example do we get a 4x4 inch wide column of water 22 feet high that spills out? In essence what ever the radius of the water is raises to the height of the spell description. similar thing happens with the reverse.
Here's my take on how each school of magic would handle this spell:
Abjuration: Either raises a wall of water to protect you, or pushes water away from you.
Conjuration: Creates water from nothing, which will likely stay around (create water).
Divination: Predict what the water will do (not very useful)
Enchantment: N/A
Evocation: Create a burst of water which vanishes either instantly or after a very short period of time.
Illusion: Make someone think they're drowning.
Necromancy: N/A
Transmuation: Turn the water into something else, or change how it behaves.
Comparisons to polymorph-type spells are irrelevant, because those are of the polymorph sub-school.
Searching on the list of every sorc/wiz spell for the word "water", everything that creates water from nothing is either conjuration or evocation.
My opinion is that this spell can't affect water that isn't there, and it doesn't create anything now. Its power comes from the fact that it affects such a huge area. As a 4th level spell (when druids and clerics get it), it can affect a square 70' on a side, and raise it 14' into the air. That's 58,800 cubic feet of water (approximately 383,000 gallons, or over half of an olympic swimming pool), which weighs over 1600 tons. When wizards get it at 6th level, it can lift 439,400 cubic feet, which is over 12200 tons (a bit under 3 million gallons).
Here's my take on how each school of magic would handle this spell:
Abjuration: Either raises a wall of water to protect you, or pushes water away from you.
Conjuration: Creates water from nothing, which will likely stay around (create water).
Divination: Predict what the water will do (not very useful)
Enchantment: N/A
Evocation: Create a burst of water which vanishes either instantly or after a very short period of time.
Illusion: Make someone think they're drowning.
Necromancy: N/A
Transmuation: Turn the water into something else, or change how it behaves.Comparisons to polymorph-type spells are irrelevant, because those are of the polymorph sub-school.
Searching on the list of every sorc/wiz spell for the word "water", everything that creates water from nothing is either conjuration or evocation.
My opinion is that this spell can't affect water that isn't there, and it doesn't create anything now. Its power comes from the fact that it affects such a huge area. As a 4th level spell (when druids and clerics get it), it can affect a square 70' on a side, and raise it 14' into the air. That's 58,800 cubic feet of water (approximately 383,000 gallons, or over half of an olympic swimming pool), which weighs over 1600 tons. When wizards get it at 6th level, it can lift 439,400 cubic feet, which is over 12200 tons (a bit under 3 million gallons).
Okay so as it raises the water the volume around it would rush in to fill in the gap. So in the glass reference in order to make it 22 feet tall it would probably be really thin line of water... but from the description it doesn't hold its shape it just surges so it would basically go splashing out of the glass leaving it empty.
Damn now i have to rethink this. Someone else brought to my attention that the lower water side of it pushes the water out or down into the ground below it so it is actually moving the water.
In any case I'll make a final ruling after i had time to look it over more.
Comparisons to polymorph-type spells are irrelevant, because those are of the polymorph sub-school.
True. I simply brought it up as a basis for what a spell of the transmutation school might or might not be able to accomplish.
Gorik and Ezra...
What do you do?
I'm unsure if Azaelas is continuing or not. Last I heard, it seemed possible they wouldn't be able to post too regularly. However, if we are proceeding with a more relaxed post schedule, where we just have people reply when they have the opportunity to do, then I think I heard we'd be able to continue without a problem?
I'd prefer clarification on that before responding in the gameplay thread, if that's okay.
I can't continue as we are right now.
If we were to break it off into semi-independent threads I might be able to.(This is a very small chance. Around 15%)
:/
Your call (and Chaiboy's obviously). I'm willing to try to make it work, but if it seems like it would just be too much trouble for you, that's fine too.
I decided to make it more relaxed because no one seems to be able to make it so I just posted everyones last turns and will let people post as they can. The only other thing I could do would be to open more threads so each fight could be on it's own. I may have to post them outside this campaign space though to make that work. I don't think there is a way to open more than one thread in each tab
The only reason why I am so active right now is I have things to do on my Laptop.
You could always talk to a Administrator/Moderator about opening a few other threads.
I'm of the opinion that you could use this spell to flood an inn even without the glass of water. (What did you think the material component was for?)
i may just open a few campaigns. If I dont flood the system maybe they wont kill me. lol. in any case i am going to open up two. one for ezra/Gorik, another for Meredith/Nico
As they finish i can use them for the next group. With three campaigns things should be much clearer. will post links in gameplay and on campaign page
I won't be able to do much to Gorik.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9jb?The-Arena-Outer-Tower-of-Ezra-and-Gorik#1
there is the thread.
@Azaelas, you have 3 attacks with a bow. thats 20-40HP damage. if he lands or you get him out of the air then you can use your melee weapons. So you do have a chance.
I'm of the opinion that you could use this spell to flood an inn even without the glass of water. (What did you think the material component was for?)
if all you needed was a drop of water then it would have been a conjuration spell because you are creating a huge amount of water from effectively nothing.