If I can make the timing work, I'm in.
I'm in, though Thursday and Sunday are the best day for me.
Awesome. depending on which days work out i can setup the matches.
Last I checked Chaiboy was letting certain people reset their resources due to extenuating circumstances. I am one such person if I am not mistaken.
If it helps, I will continue to track my depleted sources in a separate list, so that when I run out I can make a quick uplifting announcement like:
...or...
It would have no bearing on the matches whatsoever, but it might make my opponents feel a little better about themselves.
Honestly RD,
Chai boy wants to be fair to everyone - my opponent quit without showing up - so the question was how to handle the circumstance where I didn't have to consume resources and everyone else di...
Everyone hold on. trying to hunt down hustar to make sure he is in. Otherwise the entire lineup has to change again. Also Urdavan actually finished his battle. Varrell didn't post for what happened after he was taken to 0 so technically i can't give Urdavan a bye. even if he barely used any resources.... Not Urdavan's fault he is so efficient at taking out the competition.
Everyone hold on. trying to hunt down hustar to make sure he is in. Otherwise the entire lineup has to change again. Also Urdavan actually finished his battle. Varrell didn't post for what happened after he was taken to 0 so technically i can't give Urdavan a bye. even if he barely used any resources.... Not Urdavan's fault he is so efficient at taking out the competition.
So long as the next fight takes place within two hours, I don't mind at all.
Honestly RD,
Chai boy wants to be fair to everyone - my opponent quit without showing up - so the question was how to handle the circumstance where I didn't have to consume resources and everyone else di...
By your opponent, do you mean me?
Hey Sir Oktain!
I did indeed... What happened?
Everyone hold on. trying to hunt down hustar to make sure he is in. Otherwise the entire lineup has to change again. Also Urdavan actually finished his battle. Varrell didn't post for what happened after he was taken to 0 so technically i can't give Urdavan a bye. even if he barely used any resources.... Not Urdavan's fault he is so efficient at taking out the competition.
.
Im still here
Great then we can run tommy an sir oktain
okay the lineup isn't much different everyone has a battle 2nd round. But no one gets a bye. all battles to date stand as they were fought. Tommy and Sir Oktain will fight, tommy gave up his auto win and will let the match determine the win. This i think is a much better solution than resetting 60% of the field. I'll post threats in a bit with each of the match ups.
http://www.icheckfortraps.com/arena/
So, now that the Paizo forums are back up, what's the plan?
Urdavan, you have a fight with the winner of tommy and Oktain's fight.
Hey Sir Oktain!
I did indeed... What happened?
I didn't check the forums during the weekend, and I guess I've been sort of confused about what is going on -- though it is getting better.
A large part of it is the fact that my favorite bar used to link to the discussion thread, and I always saw that there were no new posts there and didn't think to look at the other tabs (I start signed off, so I didn't see the (X new) messages. When I finally realized that there were posts in the other two sections, there were 20 pages for me to read, and I kind of didn't want to do that...
I'm trying to break down Tommy's attack in that thread, and these numbers are just not working for me.
To hit: 1d20 + 22 ⇒ (10) + 22 = 32 vs touch ac
1d20 + 22 ⇒ (6) + 22 = 28
This is a to-hit roll against touch AC because of the firearm rules, and an auto-threat because of Named Bullet. No issues here.
damage crit: 1d10+ vicious 1d6 You and me, +1 d6 you +1d6 shocking + 60 +5 named + 5 gmw +10d6
1d10 + 1d6 + 2d6 + 10 + 10d6 ⇒ (2) + (6) + (3, 4) + 10 + (2, 2, 6, 3, 6, 4, 4, 1, 1, 4) = 58
if you use the jingasa it becomes
1d10 + 1d6 + 2d6 + 10 + 10d6 + 10d6 ⇒ (7) + (4) + (2, 4) + 10 + (2, 6, 3, 2, 6, 5, 3, 2, 6, 3) + (6, 3, 3, 4, 4, 2, 1, 3, 5, 5) = 101
If I follow this correctly, Tommy has a Small Musket (1d10). He used Mage Bullets to turn a 3rd level spell into a +3 bonus, which he used to add vicious (+1), and shocking burst (+2) to the gun. The Named Bullet adds +11 damage. The Greater Magic Weapon +5 (which came from the oil) adds +5 damage. That results in 1d10+2d6 vicious + 1d6 shock + 16. I don't know where the 10d6 came from, but it can't be from casting a spell at the same time (there are no rules to allow you to do that except being a 4th level Myrmidarch).
I don't know why there would be another 10d6 damage added if the crit is negated, either.
Edit: I also don't know why Sir Oktain is rolling a will save. Named bullet doesn't require that of the target.
Tommy was thinking of the massive damage rule, which is optional, to save or die if you loose more than half your hitpoints in a single attack. SInce it is optional it is not in use.
spellstoring. so the stored spell fires as a free action if it hits. i'm looking it over but yeah, spellslingers are up there with the synths in how much punishments they can pump out.
Tommy was thinking of the massive damage rule, which is optional, to save or die if you loose more than half your hitpoints in a single attack. SInce it is optional it is not in use.
Fair enough. That'd be a Fort save anyway.
Edit: I'm probably not as scared of Tommy as I ought to be, given I'm almost certainly fighting him next. But I'm a monk.
Spellslinger is allowed to break far too many rules. Like placing melee only weapon enhancements on a gun.
Spellslinger is allowed to break far too many rules. Like placing melee only weapon enhancements on a gun.
How can they do that? I must have missed something while reading the Archetype...
Spellslinger is allowed to break far too many rules. Like placing melee only weapon enhancements on a gun.How can they do that? I must have missed something while reading the Archetype...
Its under the Mage Bullets ability.
Though I am still looking over what happened just in case if something went wrong. A lot did happen all at once and I know it got the better of me when I did it.
Urdavan I'm going to shoot you a PM if you don't mind. Got a question for you.
Huh... I never noticed that before...
Huh... I never noticed that before...
I sent you a private message as well, just to let you know in case if you had not already noticed it.
I noticed I replied to you as well.
Perfect Tommy, would you please do me a favor and breakdown the damage for me piece by piece without the critical hit? I would like to see how you did everything.
First Merry Christmas to everyone.
Sure, I will post everything up right now - but if there are more questions, I won't be on much till after christmas. But I'm happy to explain.
It does take a bit of my surprise away from others, of course.
So someone had a question on my stats == here is the stats, explained.
The build out is done in the character sheet. The second column is the points paid.
Str 7 -4 (18) -2 5(18)
Int 16 10 2 4 22
Wisdom 8 -2 8
Con 14 5 -2 12
Dex 18 17 2 2 4 +2 28
Ch 9 -1 4 13
Starting stats:
St 7
Int 16
Wis 8
Con 14
Dex 18
Ch 9
Costs:
-4
10
-2
5
17
-1
total = 25.
Racial adds +2 int +2 dex - 2 con
7
18
8
12
20
9
Level Adjustments (both to dex)
7
18
8
12
22
9
Size modifiers -2 str +2 dex
5
18
8
12
24
9
Gear:
5 (18) Masterwork Backpack, anthaul. Weight carrying capacity.
22 Helm of wondrous int chreated myself 11 skill points actually)
8
12
28 Wondrous Dex Belt
13 Helm of wondrous int/chr
Okay so: (doing this from memory, quickly as I'm at a christmas party)
1. Spell slinger deliver spells via their gun.
2. I took magic lineage shocking grasp. An intensified, reach shocking grasp is therefor 2nd level.
3. An maximized, intensified, reach shocking grasp with magical lineage is therefore a 5th level spell.
4. A feature of spell slinger allows you to add spell storing. So I used a spell to add and intensified reach shocking grasp. This is therefor 10d6.
5. I shot Sir Oktain with a the 5th level spell. As a crit, it does 60x3 pts of damage. Jingasa converts that to a straight 60.
6. So putting it all together:
1d10 (gun)
+2d6 vicious
+1d6 shocking
+60 maximized intensified reach shocking grasp
+11 named bullet
+5 magic weapon
+10d6 intensified reach shocking grasp
off the top of my head I don't remember if I added the flaming arrow or not. If so that would be another d6.
So due to adventures in remedial math .. I'm adding it all up here again. Since he used the jingasa, reading from the second line:
d10 = 7
d6 +4 (first die of vicious)done to me and sir ok
2d6 + 6 second die of vicious and shocking
name +11
gmw +5
maxSG+60
10d6 =38 .
============
= 131.
This puts you at -25. Your con is currently 16 due to rage and reservoir cancelling out. So the question of surrender actually was moot.
Even if you took the worst 10d6 roll, the damage was 33, knocking you to -20.
Thank you for the breakdown and being a good sport about the scrutiny. I was kind of wondering if the +60 was a Maximized Intensified Shocking Grasp and sure enough it was.
Alright, next I would have to ask how you identified Sir Oktain to use the Named Bullet spell?
And I would like to ask that Chaiboy put up a ruling that everyone rolls once for their damage and then modifies that however they need to to come up with their numbers.
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roll once for damage? for all their numbers? the way people have been putting up all their numbers has been fine. It works be best for everyone to take their round and wait for the next person to take their round before taking their next one. And named bullet can be half orc, humanoid or even sir oktain...named bullet seems to be really loose when it comes to naming. I looked it up and spell slingers are just really dangerous. And if you really know how to play with metamagic feats it can be really dangerous.
My understanding was Sir Oktain is a full Orc which means that it would have to be Humanoid (Orc) or Sir Oktain's name. And its normal mechanics of the game to use a Knowledge check to figure out what someone is, a knowledge he does not currently have ranks in in this particular case.
And it seems unlikely that Perfect Tommy's character is going to just know Sir Oktain's name.
Its a powerful spell with stipulations on its use, stipulations one should make their character capable of achieving if they wish to use it. And I'm not saying he's incapable of meeting those stipulations, but its questionable if he did without Knowledge (Local).
As for the dice, I was referring to someone only rolling the damage dice for a particular attack once. Not rolling them multiple times depending on what actions their enemy takes. A difference of even a few hit points could make a rather large difference in this game.
I hate playing the rules lawyer, but I've got to tackle this.
1. Spell slinger deliver spells via their gun.
Agreed.
2. I took magic lineage shocking grasp. An intensified, reach shocking grasp is therefor 2nd level.
Agreed, provided you're only increasing to to Close (which I assume you are).
3. An maximized, intensified, reach shocking grasp with magical lineage is therefore a 5th level spell.
Agreed.
4. A feature of spell slinger allows you to add spell storing. So I used a spell to add and intensified reach shocking grasp. This is therefor 10d6.
Agreed. I think that was an error on Paizo's part to allow spell storing and vicious as options for a ranged weapon, but they are listed as valid options regardless of my opinion. And even I would agree that since useless options wouldn't be listed, the intent is for them to function the same at range as they do in melee.
5. I shot Sir Oktain with a the 5th level spell. As a crit, it does 60x3 pts of damage. Jingasa converts that to a straight 60.
Here's where we start to disagree. You either shot him or you cast a spell on him through your gun. You couldn't have done both.
A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun. When he casts through the arcane gun, the gun’s enhancement bonus (if any) is a bonus to the spell’s attack rolls or to the spell’s saving throw DCs. Yet there are dangers inherent to this method. If any of the spells’ attack rolls result in a natural 1 (a misfire), or a natural 20 is rolled on any saving throw made against the spell by a target (an overload), the arcane gun gains the broken condition. If the arcane gun already has the broken condition, the gun explodes. When a gun explodes, it lets loose a blast of force, or if the spell has the acid, cold, electricity, or sonic descriptor, it deals that type of energy damage instead. In the case of spells with multiple descriptors, roll randomly among the descriptors to determine the type of damage dealt by the blast. The blast is centered on a single intersection within the spellslinger’s space (spellslinger’s choice) and deals 1d6 points of the appropriate energy damage or force damage per level of the spell cast. Any creature within the blast other than the spellslinger can make a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage. The Reflex save DC is calculated using the spell level of the spell being sacrificed.
A spellslinger can attune his arcane guns at the start of each day. That attunement lasts until the spellslinger attunes to a new gun, even if a formally attuned gun is destroyed.
This ability replaces arcane bond.
I bolded the two relevant sentences here. The first one says that the gun is capable of both firing bullets and spells. I interpret this is a general statement, to contrast with the one before it about how the guns behave for others. "In the hands of others, they're ordinary, but in the hands of the spellslinger, they're special". I do not derive from this any special ability to cast a spell and make an attack on the same turn, or even in the same action, the way that a Magus can.
The second sentence I bolded starts more concrete rules and describes just how the spellslinger can cast spells through his gun. Nowhere in there does it say that the gun has to be loaded, that the gun's misfire range applies, or how to stack the gun's damage with the spell's. It doesn't address what happens if you're shooting a spell that would be outside the range for which guns make touch attacks, if the spell doesn't do damage in the first place (but the bullet does), or what to do if the gun is flaming, vicious, spell storing, or anything else that has to do with actually using the gun as a weapon. Contrast this with the [url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/myrmidarch]Myrmidarch[/url] ability (which specifically limits you to a single attack even if the spell can do multiple) and references spellstrike (which addresses most of the other factors).
In other words, I read this as an either/or. Either you cast a spell through the gun using Arcane Gun, or you shoot a bullet with boosts from Mage Bullets.
6. So putting it all together:
1d10 (gun)
+2d6 vicious
+1d6 shocking
+60 maximized intensified reach shocking grasp
+11 named bullet
+5 magic weapon
+10d6 intensified reach shocking grasp
off the top of my head I don't remember if I added the flaming arrow or not. If so that would be another d6.
By my reading, you would have two choices for how this actually resolved (assuming chaiboy agrees with my interpretation).
1)
1d10 (gun)
+2d6 vicious
+1d6 shocking
+11 named bullet
+5 magic weapon
+10d6 intensified reach shocking grasp (triggered as free action after the bullet hit, so no attack roll but not wasted if it missed)
_______
31 physical damage + 33 electric damage (no save)
Note that the electric damage would not multiply on a crit, because you never roll an attack roll for it. It's an entirely separate ability which triggers "the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it". Magi have a specific rule for Spellstrike which makes that behave differently.
2)
60 maximized intensified reach shocking grasp
+5 magic weapon
________
65 electric damage (no save)
As for the dice, I was referring to someone only rolling the damage dice for a particular attack once. Not rolling them multiple times depending on what actions their enemy takes. A difference of even a few hit points could make a rather large difference in this game.
Agreed on this. If it multiplies on a crit, either just multiply it, or roll the extra dice, but don't reroll the base dice. Otherwise, someone could go "Well, if I negate the crit, I'll still take 2/3 of the damage, because he rolled badly on the crit but good on the regular," and decide to not negate it in favor of saving that ability. Likewise with spending hero points.
Urdavan, with how you explained it and from the quote you posted, I would actually think that the +5 Magic Weapon might not apply towards damage when a spell is cast through it either. Unless if attack rolls is meant to mean damage rolls as well.
I thought the bonus was applied as a bonus to attack. It only added damage when a bullet was used.
As for criticals it says this:
If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.
So shocking grasp would be multiplied.
Still looking it up but if the gun has shocking grasp with reach stored then if he fires the maximized etc grasp through the gun and he is in close range the stored spel would fire also so he could get both shocking grasps or shocking grasps and a bullet.
. I thik tommy decided to save time because of the gaps in activity and did all his rolls in one go to save time. Yes it gives your opponent a chance to take the lesser of two evils but since it grants no benefit to attacker i'll let it pass. Pbp games are slow normally soso if you want to save time and both parties are fine wth it then I see no reason to slow the game down
Urdavan, with how you explained it and from the quote you posted, I would actually think that the +5 Magic Weapon might not apply towards damage when a spell is cast through it either. Unless if attack rolls is meant to mean damage rolls as well.
I thought the bonus was applied as a bonus to attack. It only added damage when a bullet was used.
You're both right. I misread that. It wouldn't apply to damage.
As for criticals it says this:
If the spellslinger chooses to have only one arcane gun at a time, spells fired through the arcane gun that require an attack roll have a ×3 critical hit multiplier.So shocking grasp would be multiplied.
If he cast shocking grasp though it (as per the maximized one), it would be multiplied on a crit, to 180 electric damage. But the spell-stored shocking grasp wouldn't be. It comes down to whether or not you make an attack roll for that spell.
Still looking it up but if the gun has shocking grasp with reach stored then if he fires the maximized etc grasp through the gun and he is in close range the stored spel would fire also so he could get both shocking grasps or shocking grasps and a bullet.
The relevant quote is:
Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.
If the weapon strikes the creature, the spell can be discharged - but there's no to-hit roll for the spell so it can't crit. I'll admit there's potentially some ambiguity as to whether a spell fired through the gun (instead of a bullet) counts as "the weapon strik[ing] a creature", but personally I'd interpret that as not applying.
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Merry christmas everyone
Happy Holidays.
And I would still like to have an explanation for how he managed Named Bullet without a relevant knowledge check. He has no ranks and thusly is incapable of using said knowledge check to identify Sir Oktain as an orc. And, as I said, I doubt his character went into this match knowing Sir Oktain's name for the spell either.
And I have no problem with someone rolling their attacks and damage rolls all at once. I do it all the time. I would prefer they don't roll damage for the same attack multiple times. Instead I would prefer they roll their base damage and then modify it if need be. I don't sit at a table rolling the damage once for it its not a critical hit and another time for in case if it is a critical hit. If I happen to crit, I modify the first roll.
...
I haven't had time to digest the bulk of Urd's arguments.
In a spellslinger’s hands, they both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and cast magic
Not that they fire projectiles *or* cast magic - *and*.
Secondly,
A wizard can deliver ranged touch, rays, lines etc..*already*. He's giving up half the schools of magic - (and three feats, and cantrips, and a familiar)and quickened spells for the ability for a bonus on touch AC? And on top of that - have up to a 10% chance per shot of a misfire??
And -when you're using things like pistols - with scorching rays, you are trading touch AC (any range) versus touch AC (10 feet), and regular AC everywhere else - with a terrible range increment.
That would be a *horrible* tradeoff.
AND not only that, if you're delivering a spell witout a bullet - why would it misfire?
The first definition of misfire [ˌmɪsˈfaɪə]
vb (intr)
1. (Military / Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) (of a firearm or its projectile) to fail to fire, explode, or ignite as or when expected.
Finally, spellcasters usually *cast* spells. Spell slinger says you *fire* a spell through the gun - and their specialization is school of the gun.
Gun's don't fire without bullets.
I'm really not trying to rules lawyer here; it simply never occured to me that there could be any other interpretation. But I'll leave it to chai.
But if its ruled one or the other, I'd like with the groups permission's to choose an alternate build. Spellslingers then become ridiculously underpowered.
Regarding named bullets I asked this of chai in advance.
We've all seen each other- talked to each other, (see opening threads)
And we saw each other before we touched the pillar.
Our characters (not just our players) are in brackets and are in a tourney.
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from my reading of the archetype it seems that the gun can be used for both bullets and magic. However for purposes of the gun they are both types of projectiles, bullets(pellets) and magic.
The magic being the projectile still would cause the other stuff to kick off when it hit. so you shoot SG through gun assuming you got the crit.
180 for SG Max/reach (gun)
+7 for vicious
+6 for burst
+33 for SG spell stored.
thats 226 damage.... the only thing left off is the 1d10 as you traded the bullet for a spell.
And with everyone chatting before the competition and making threats and ribbing each other everyone would have inadvertently given him enough information to use his named shot. plus the pillar was there for a year while everyone prepped to go so you all had time to introduce yourselves.
And with everyone chatting before the competition and making threats and ribbing each other everyone would have inadvertently given him enough information to use his named shot. plus the pillar was there for a year while everyone prepped to go so you all had time to introduce yourselves.
I honestly believe that should be a player's choice. They could have just as likely given away false information. Not to mention, you say its been there for a year, that does not mean every character chose to sit there for a year. Some might have shown up last minute. Others might have chose to keep to themselves.
I feel it to be rather ridiculous you would just handwave the prerequisites for that spell. Especially when he could have easily invested ranks into a knowledge skill that would have made him perfectly capable of meeting those prerequisites.
And thank you everyone for reminding me whats really important:
Merry Christmas and happy holidays ..
This is not aimed to be a personal attack. I'm sorry that you are the current focus of the discussion, but you pulled off a big move that has a lot to take in. Likewise, when I finally pulled a trick out of my bag, I had my tactics pulled into question and combed over revealing I accidentally put in more dice then necessary and also forgot to even add some other adjustments.
While it is not my place to change what has happened, I am allowed my opinion. And hopefully it will be beneficial in helping set fair rulings for the next arena, if there is still to be one.
Otherwise, I honestly hope you all had a good holiday.
Hanzou,
No offense is taken at all for scrutinizing build or tactics. I think scrutiny makes for sharper characters and better understanding of the game. And it gives good ideas to feed off of. If it matters, I still have 11 unallocated skill points.
Previous comments edited for clarity:
I've played a lot of Pathfinder / DnD and I have no idea what skill you'd think is appropriate to identify a core race: dwarf, elf, human, tiefling etc.
The DC for for a common monster is DC 5 +cr. An orc is 1/3 cr. That means a DC 5 check, which I can take 10 on, and can do untrained.
Additionally, Elves and orcs have racial hatred for each other. What do you suppose the DC for knowing what an orc is? DC 0?
Identifying an ethnicity or accent is given as DC10. Identifying something as an orc is significantly easy than identifying him as an orc from the pomage. Or that he's an Olog-hai vs an Uruk-hai.
But even if that weren't true, that could be bypassed by knowing the name, which was a feature of the tourney. I built a character for the tourney as it was advertised.
Turn it around for a minute. I went and asked chai via pm (which a lot of people did) if we had time to see all the contestants. Did I have the prerequisites to be able to cast Named Bullets.
Chai's ruling was yes, that I did. Do you think that was an unreasonable ruling? Don't you think its at least a reasonable interpretation given the initial presentation of the conditions and rules?
I simply took advantage of the stated game conditions, just like you will do with darkness, and RD did with a fountain in the room.
Finally regarding dice rolling: pbp is very slow, I rolled dice for the crit non crit simply to expedite matters - trying to cover all the bases in advance- just as we rolled for init before it was required.
Chaiboy, I replied to your PM.
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i assume that even not giving out names these two rules makes it pretty easy for him to figure out most races.
NAMED BULLET
You imbue the target with deadly accuracy against a selected creature type (and subtype for humanoids or outsiders)
So he just needs to know if you are an oread, orc or human. Naming is nice but unnecessary.
Knowledge checks:
For common monsters such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. (will usually be 5)(cr of creature type not a specific character)
The uncommon races are still DC 10 + CR(usually 10 since 1/2 cr is rounded down)
with a skill of 10. taking 10 gives him 20 which is enough to identify everyone. even if he rolls it will be 11+ which still identifies the race.
Since the spell just needs a subtype and he has a skill in knowledge(nature) he can identifying everyone unless you are meredith in the cauldron and never poke out of it. If he sees you he can identify you as a free action cast named bullet and then next round shoot gun as normal. Since he was in stealth prepping his shot while oktain was changing mounts he could identify him and take shot when he got in range.
like i said this archetype is nasty. Trust me i been trying to find a hole in the named bullet issue but it works as advertised. Make a will save or hope you have a jingasa or you'll be taking a huge amount of damage. It doesn't help that Tommy knows how to massage the metamagic feats to maximize their effects.