Shades of Twilight - Fall of the Third Imperium (Inactive)

Game Master GM Darkblade

This is a Mongoose Traveller game set in the Regina Subsector of the Spinward Marches, Third Imperium circa 1116


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Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Still waiting for an ok from the people I suggested Connections to.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Ok, updated my character sheet with connections skills and package skills (will update again if the other players object to the connections I suggested). Also did some more shopping, got a few undercover agent items (all less than 2,000).

Finally, found a different armor for Lodic, cheaper than the battle armor the GM approved, and doubles as a vacc suit. Also much cheaper than the armor the GM approved.

Boarding Vacc Suit (TL11) Also known as boarding armour or
combat suits, the boarding vacc suit was originally used to help
battle against pirates when life support failed during an attack.
It is an armoured suit hardened to the dangers of exposure to
vacuum or hostile environments. As technology improved, the suits
became thinner and sturdier, revolutionising their use in ship-toship
combat. A boarding vac suit will have a melee weapon/pistol
combination grafted to the cuffs on the suit for the wearer’s use.
Wt: 30. Cr. 12,000.
(TL12) Wt: 28; Cr. 20,000

Liberty's Edge

Male Historian/Curator

I put together a small excel spreadsheet with people's events on them and the time when they happened so it might be easier to see links between the characters. It is by no way complete, so please add your events to it and change what you need. Hope it helps.

Character Event Chart


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

Dot. Hi guys!

Daniel Stewart wrote:

I put together a small excel spreadsheet with people's events on them and the time when they happened so it might be easier to see links between the characters. It is by no way complete, so please add your events to it and change what you need. Hope it helps.

Character Event Chart

This is useful. thzero does not yet appear there though. Including you there are seven of us.

BTW I can't edit the sheet.

Liberty's Edge

Male Historian/Curator

ok..will alter to let you update sheet....I knew I was missing someone!!


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

Wait... Look at the name of the campaign! This seems rather ominous... :)


Game died

.


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)
Relsanth Lodic Kelser wrote:

Boarding Vacc Suit (TL11) Also known as boarding armour or

combat suits, the boarding vacc suit was originally used to help
battle against pirates when life support failed during an attack.
It is an armoured suit hardened to the dangers of exposure to
vacuum or hostile environments. As technology improved, the suits
became thinner and sturdier, revolutionising their use in ship-toship
combat. A boarding vac suit will have a melee weapon/pistol
combination grafted to the cuffs on the suit for the wearer’s use.
Wt: 30. Cr. 12,000.
(TL12) Wt: 28; Cr. 20,000

What are the armor stats for these? Varkha might get one (the TL11 version, can't afford the TL12 one).


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Type/TL
Boarding Vacc Suit (TL11)
(TL12)
(TL14)

Rating
8
12
15

Cost
12,000
20,000
80,000

Availability
9+
10+
10+

Skill Required
Vacc Suit 1
Vacc Suit 1
Vacc Suit 0

Weight
30
28
26


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Ship Name Suggestions :

Albatross

Black Pig

Borealis

Crescent Star

Erstwhile Fortune

Hesperus

Roupian Belle

Sasquatch

Star Tiger

Star Witch

Stumbling Dutchman

Vulkan


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)
Relsanth Lodic Kelser wrote:
Ship Name Suggestions :

How about:

"Hot Needle of Inquiry?"

Nah, just kidding.

I like "Deneb Rising" myself. Or something along those lines.

Deneb is a supergiant star that is close enough (in the next sector) that it is probably visible even in daylight on most worlds in the region. It is 107 light years from Roup (and 1600 light years from Earth).

Or I will also be happy to generate a random 6-syllable vargr word we could use. :)


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Things people know about Lodic :

Those who had connections with Lodic (Two People on the ship) : Lodic is relatively young for his race, but seems to have seen an awful lot. He was an agent for his government for over 15 years. At least one person knows he was successful at infiltrating Zodhani space. They know he's older than he looks (given he looks in his early 20's). They know they are allowed to call him Lodic. They know he's more dangerous than he looks.

Those who don't have connections with Lodic (Everyone else) : They 'know' he's a really well traveled kid. They know he has more skills than most people his 'age'. They know he's hard to get angry. They know he's not afraid of a fight, but doesn't seek them out. They know he's got some weird hangup about ship shares. They know he gets annoyed if people call him by his first name (Lodic), to the point it's one of the few ways to really tick him off. He insists on being called either Relsanth-Lodic (as one word) or Kelser, or Relsanth-Kelser. Only the people he's known for awhile seem to be able to call him Lodic without getting into an argument about it.

Things nobody in the crew know : They do not know he worked for Special Arm. They do not know he is a telepath. They don't know how much money he has in his bank account. They don't know about all the espionage and counter espionage equipment in his quarters and storage lockers. They don't know he has augments.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Need to decide on what Lodic's Grav Bike looks like. Found 3 I like so far...

Contender 1

Contender 2

Contender 3

Note, it's called a grav bike, but it has a ton of cargo space, and room for a passenger, and can go into orbit. So it's not a star wars speeder bike with an open top (to the best of my understanding).


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)
Relsanth Lodic Kelser wrote:
Note, it's called a grav bike, but it has a ton of cargo space, and room for a passenger, and can go into orbit. So it's not a star wars speeder bike with an open top (to the best of my understanding).

I like the second one out of the three.

An Air/Raft has similar performance, and can reach orbit, but has an open top. If you are going to use it to land from a spacecraft in orbit everyone onboard has to wear vacc suits.

However, your grav bike says it has life support, so that likely means it is enclosed. Also 1 dton of cargo space is 13.5 cubic meters - that's pretty big.

It does seem like there has to be a big difference between the Grav Racer you quoted at 2,000 cr and the grav bike you have which is 200,000 cr.

I always wondered though how an air/raft could dock with a ship in orbit. They have a top speed of 100 km/h. A spacecraft orbiting the earth at an altitude of 200 km has a velocity of about 28,000 km/h. Anyone else see the problem there?


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

Moving this from Recruitment.

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is up to date. New Entries are in Blue. Looks like there is a conflict over Broker Skill. Also I'm not sure that Maximilian's second pick (mechanic) is correct.

Updated campaign package list:

Advocate 1,
Astrogation 1,
Broker 1, Doc or Allrianne
Comms 1, Varkha
Engineer (any) 1, Allrianne
Gun Combat (any) 1, Lodic
Gun Combat (any) 1, Doc
Gunner (any) 1, Lysander
Mechanic 1, Maximillian
Medic 1, Kenneth
Persuade 1,
Pilot (any) 1, Maximillian
Sensors 1, Lodic
Stealth 1, Varkha
Streetwise 1, Lysander
Survival 1 Kenneth


Male
Latest Message:
Just to let you all know, I was travelling heavily 10/27 to 10/29, I'll be catching up on 10/30
Human GM
Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:


However, your grav bike says it has life support, so that likely means it is enclosed. Also 1 dton of cargo space is 13.5 cubic meters - that's pretty big.

I think the cargo is how much it can haul, not how much space is in it, since it takes up 6 cubic meters. I think it's cargo is external, otherwise it would be bigger than 6 cubic meters.

Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:


It does seem like there has to be a big difference between the Grav Racer you quoted at 2,000 cr and the grav bike you have which is 200,000 cr.

I think the Vargr bikes are more like the racers from Star Wars Episode I, built for minimal safety and maximum speed, so nothing extra.

Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:


I always wondered though how an air/raft could dock with a ship in orbit. They have a top speed of 100 km/h. A spacecraft orbiting the earth at an altitude of 200 km has a velocity of about 28,000 km/h. Anyone else see the problem there?

Top speed is in an atmosphere with gravity.

In space, your top speed is the speed of light, it's only affected by your acceleration. That is, how long it takes you to get to the speed of light. If you had an accel of 4 m/s, it would take it about 7 hours to increase your speed by 100 km.


Incorrect I'm afraid. Grav pods do not work as limitless propulsion units in the game. They need a mass upon which to interact which is why they can only achieve low orbit, and then only by taking several hours to do so. To quote the concept from the core rulebook "Most air/rafts are capable of reaching orbit (occupants must wear vacc suits unless enclosed) but the trip will take several (6 to 8) hours. An air/raft is not intended for extended spaceflight. Interface landers (spacecraft), G-carriers, ship's gigs, shuttles, and other smallcraft perform similar roles." Air/rafts are the basic PoC upon which other grav vehicles are based.

I think you are confusing the forward thrust potential of the vehicle's engines with the lift capabilities of the grav pods. If your example is truly how you want or require the grav speeders or grav bikes to function then I will have no choice but to eliminate them from the game and limit the crew to using Core Rulebook vehicles only.

Traveller air/rafts, Star Wars speeder bikes, Firefly shuttles, and video game style APC's are good enough vehicle options, so let's leave it at them shall we.

To quote from Firefly:
Wash: That sounds like something out of science-fiction.
Zoe: We live in a spaceship, dear.
Wash: So?


Male
Latest Message:
Just to let you all know, I was travelling heavily 10/27 to 10/29, I'll be catching up on 10/30
Human GM

I never said they'd be good as space vehicles.

I was only talking about how to dock with something in space given relative speeds. That's why I used 4 m/s as an acceleration, I figured that's about all the grav bike would get in low orbit, and it would take it 7 hours to match speeds with a ship it was trying to dock with. In other words, it's not very useful as a ground to orbit shuttle, but it can work in a pinch.

The easier way, of course, is for the ship to slow to 100 km/h, let the grav bike land while it uses engines to maintain orbit, and then be done with it. Again, not a good solution, but usable in a pinch.

ALthough, the grav bike itself actually has a higher top speed than an air raft. Speed: Cruise 1,092kph, Top 1,456kph


Game died
Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:

Moving this from Recruitment.

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is up to date. New Entries are in Blue. Looks like there is a conflict over Broker Skill. Also I'm not sure that Maximilian's second pick (mechanic) is correct.

Updated campaign package list:

Advocate 1,
Astrogation 1,
Broker 1, Doc or Allrianne
Comms 1, Varkha
Engineer (any) 1, Allrianne
Gun Combat (any) 1, Lodic
Gun Combat (any) 1, Doc
Gunner (any) 1, Lysander
Mechanic 1,
Medic 1, Kenneth
Persuade 1,
Pilot (any) 1, Maximillian
Sensors 1, Lodic
Stealth 1, Varkha
Streetwise 1, Lysander
Survival 1 Kenneth

I already have Mechanic. I had posted a suggestion that Kenneth take it to be able to help with repairs on the ship. Sorry I haven't finished up, work has been really busy.


mdt wrote:
I never said they'd be good as space vehicles.

If you want to reach a ship in orbit use the Gig, that's why it was built. If you want to cruise around planetside, use a vehicle.

You can drive a nail by hitting it with a wrench, but I would recommend using the hammer.


Male Scot | STR 16 COO 18 OBS 17 STA 6 LUC 10 | Linguistics 8 (Spanish, French, Chinese, Latin), Literacy 16, Medicine 6 Orienteering 6 Surveying/Mapmaking 18 Veterinarian 13 Rifle 2

Updated my character sheet with equipment.

To help the doc patch you up, please consider purchasing a personal mediscanner for Cr1000.


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)
Maximilian Vincenzio wrote:
I already have Mechanic. I had posted a suggestion that Kenneth take it to be able to help with repairs on the ship. Sorry I haven't finished up, work has been really busy.

Sorry, my bad. Anything on there you want? You suggested Kenneth take Mechanic; is that because you want Medic? Kenneth, what do you think?

BTW, you posted a link onto your profile which I assume is for your character sheet, but I can't open it. I get a "You need Permission" error message.


UPP 7B8865
Primary Skills:
Computers 4, Deception 3, Stealth 3, Streetwise 3, Gun Combat (Slug Pistol) 3, Investigate 2, Persuasion 2, Gun Combat (Slug Rifles) 1, Mechanic-1, Survival-1
Secondary Skills:
Remote Sensors 0, Sensors 0, Comms 0, Vacc Suit 0, Athletics 0, Gunnery 0

I do not care one way or the other...I will take mechanic if he want medic....no worries..just let me know!


For those whose characters are finished, a post is up in the game feed.


I do not wish to derail the campaign at the start, but the seeds for the four main story themes previously mentioned have been planted amongst the background news articles provided. None of them are dependent upon the crew, no interact with them is required, they're simply there and will develop as the universe progresses around you.

I will try to keep news headlines available for each world you visit, but few if any will continue the overall story arc on each hop, unless the group specifically delves further into them. Red herrings are a dish I love to serve players, but there is real meat and potatoes available for those who work for it.

If I need to tone anything down, let me know.

Were the sandcaster's the only change/upgrade sought for the Deneb Rising? This will cost you 1 dTon of cargo space for the sand magazine and a favor from the ISS Scout base if you want anything higher than TL 7.

I am willing to make an exception for the air/raft, ATV, Lodic's grav bike and Varkha's speeder, combining the bay/cargo racks to accommodate all four vehicles for only 17 dTons of space instead of 22, but the area will be cramped so careful of the Vacc Suits in such tight quarters. All such vehicles can exit the ship via the starboard ramp or cargo elevator. None of the vehicles currently have a dock on the ship's exterior.

Current ship's cargo space reduced to 86 dTons with the above mentioned changes. I will post the updated ship's sheet later today.


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

Crunching Numbers
Operating costs for the ship Deneb Rising

The core assumption is that for every one week of jump you also spend about 1 week of operations, landing and taking off, loading and unlaoding cargo, and so on. Most ship expenses are listed as monthly, but since there are 26 two-week periods in a year (and 12 months don't divide evenly into that) I am reverting my calculations to annual rates and then dividing by 26 to work out the cost per two-week "voyage."

Base Ship Cost: 216.419 Mcr
-33% (shares) = 145.00073
+20% (financing) = 174.000876
/40 (annual payments) = 4.3500219 Mcr
plus
100*400*12 (annual maintenance) = 0.48 Mcr
plus
11*2000*12 (annual life support for staterooms) = 0.264 Mcr
plus
4*100*12 (annual life support for low berths) = 0.0048 Mcr

Not including crew salaries, or fuel costs (since we can scoop fuel), the total annual cost to operate the Deneb Rising is:

4.3500219 Mcr
0.48 Mcr
0.264 Mcr
0.0048 Mcr
----------
5.0988219 Mcr

/ 26 (there are 26 two-week "periods" per year)
= 196,108.535 cr

So we need to earn 196,109 cr every jump in order to break even, and this is assuming we don't take salaries or pay for fuel.

We have 86 tons of cargo space. We have total stateroom space for 11 people, and there are 7 of us, so we could take up to 4 passengers as long as two of them are willing to share a double stateroom. There are also 4 low berths. High passengers also get a ton of cargo space for their use so you do need to calculate it two different ways.

So assuming a full load with high passengers going 2 parsecs, we would earn 40,000 from high passengers and 4,000 from low passengers.

196,109 - 44,000 = 152,109. The remaining 82 tons of cargo space have to earn at least this much. Or each ton of cargo space must earn 152,109 / 82 = 1855 cr.

Or, with mid passengers, we could earn 24,000. 196,109 - 24,000 = 172,109. The remaining 86 tons of cargo space have to earn at least this much. Or each ton of cargo space must earn 172,109 / 86 = 2001 cr.

At the freight rate of 1000 cr per parsec per ton we can barely break even, even if our cargo hold is completely full (and it normally won't be). And in order to speculate we need a significant "war chest" of cash on hand, and note that whatever we speculate on still has to increase in value by at least 2000 cr per ton to be worthwhile.

This situation seems a bit desperate but the funny part is how much the ship would cost if we started with no ship shares. The money we put into the ship in the form of shares is not, strictly speaking, earning anything.

There are a number of suggestions I have which I will put in the next post.


You can always haggle over travel rates for passengers and their cargos. You can play up the nature of your ship and the security it offers versus the larger commercial ventures.

Sometimes it may work. other times not so much.


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

Suggestions for trading strategy:

Suggestion 1: Sell the ATV
We have grav vehicles available and I can't see us ever using the ATV, despite the fact that it is armed. There's really no situation where using the grav vehicles wouldn't be better.

If we can find a buyer for the ATV this would give us 300,000 (though we probably won't get the full amount) to put in our "war chest." It would also allow us to put the air/raft, Lodic's Grav Bike, and Varkha's grav racer in the 10-ton vehicle bay meant for the ATV. This frees up 7 more tons of cargo space.

Suggestion 2: Sell some of the repair drones
I don't know exactly how repair drones work in this system but we have 20 of them. This seems like a lot, especially since they take up 4 tons of space each (wait... that seems like a lot of tonnage. This value is according to the playtest version. It looks like they don't take up so much space in the regular rules... maybe 0.5 tons each?). If we sell half of them that will free up some cargo space and net us up to 2 Mcr (I'm sure we won't get full value though) towards our "war chest."

Suggestion 3: High Risk Destinations
The Deneb Rising has armor, a full compliment of turrets, and maneuver-3, plus a model/5 bis computer. This is far better than most merchant ships. We can survive in areas where an ordinary Type-A or Type-R would get creamed. If most merchants would not risk going to a destination, presumably we can charge a premium to ferry passengers and freight to and from such a place.

Suggestion 4: Chartering
We could offer to hire out the Deneb Rising as a charter. I figure we could hire her out at around 250,000 cr per two-week period, or more for dangerous assignments.

Suggestion 5: Speed
The general assumption is that we are spending about 1 week between jumps in turnaround time. But the Deneb Rising is fairly fast (M-3) and we might be able to shave some time off the normal turnaround. Even one day will increase our revenue significantly.

Suggestion 6: High-value cargoes
The speculation system works off a percentage increase in value. So cargoes that have a high value per ton can earn us more cash per ton. A cargo that is worth 1000 per ton has to sell for 300% of its value for us to break even, but a cargo that is worth 100,000 per ton only has to sell for 102% of its value to earn the same amount per ton. Buying high value cargoes requires us to have a big "war chest" though.

Edit: Suggestion 7: Drop Tanks
I don't know if drop tanks are legal in Mongoose Traveller but if they are, an 80 ton drop tank could extend our range to four parsecs in two separate jumps. Then we could make 4 parsecs in 3 weeks instead of 2 parsecs in 2 weeks. There may be circumstances where this is an advantage.


Wolf 3HD | HP 23/23 | Init +2 | Per +5 S.M. +1 | AC 16 : T 12 : FF 14 : CMD 14 | Fort +5 : Ref +5 : Will +2 | Bite +3 (1d6+1 plus trip)

FYI (math):

Turns out I had the wrong rates for passengers - turns out the prices are a bit more favorable. So we earn potentially 8800 more from high + low passage or 4800 more from mid + low passages. That isn't a huge amount though and doesn't change the conclusions much though.


Suggestion 1 - Incorrect assumption about the cargo space, as the small vehicles take 4 tons each but I was offering you a discount to meet you half way on this unusual need for extra "personal" vehicles. Selling the ATV is not an option I will consider. You can drop it from the ship that's fine, and it will reduce the purchase cost, but you are not going to be selling off parts of the ship for cash this early in the game.

Also remember, not every world you visit will allow high tech vehicular travel, so unless you intend on frequently breaking local laws and putting your ship at risk of impound you may be limited in some places. Not to mention some wind patterns, storms, etc. may make floater travel dangerous.

Suggestion 2 - Not an option, see selling the ATV above. The repair drones are on the ship to make repairs to the ship in times of stress or significant danger. I don't think you want to make continual EVA's or crawl through cramped ducts and bulkheads to repair the various components that can be damaged in combat, not to mention normal wear and tear accruing over time.

Suggestion 7 - Drop tanks are included in Mongoose Traveller, but there are risks to using the tanks, extra fittings must be installed costing cargo space, and the tanks affect your M Drive rating, not to mention the J Drive as well if you must jump with them attached. Typically they are used in special circumstances rather than normal operations.


Male
Latest Message:
Just to let you all know, I was travelling heavily 10/27 to 10/29, I'll be catching up on 10/30
Human GM

@GM - Please don't take offense at this, it's just something I feel I should discuss.

I don't intend to speak for others, just myself.

The last week or so the tone of responses from yourself is coming across, at least to me, as somewhat upset or annoyed, with what feels like implications that the players are trying to abuse the system. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, only that it reads that way when I read it. And again, I only speak for myself, no one else. It's entirely likely that this is unintended, which is why I mention it. I just don't want to take the chance that you feel we are trying to game the system.

I have played Traveller once, about 20 years ago, and it was the GDW little black book version. The game I played in actually was set in the Twilight 2300 world, just using Traveller rules. It was a military campaign, and we were mostly fighting Kafers. We really didn't get into the cargo hauling aspect, and what little we did worry about cargo and such was mostly hand waved.

I have run Traveller twice, both times it was the D20/T20 version of Traveller, and both times it was again a Military campaign. Cargo, personal items, and such were not really a major part of either campaign, and again, the big thing they were keeping track of was logistics (weapons, food, fuel) which were in 25ton lots mostly, on heavy military transports.

So, to avoid any confusion, I at least am not trying to game the system, I'm trying to learn it. I went out and purchased the books from DriveThru RPG in packages with my Christmas gift money so I'd have decent hard sci-fi system in my library (also because my players have been wanting to play hard sci-fi for awhile and all I really had before was MechWarrior or Star Wars which isn't hard sci-fi).

So in case you are actually thinking we're trying to game the system, may I submit that this is much more likely to be people trying hard to figure out what is and what isn't a go under the system and not us trying to annoy you by breaking the rules?


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent
Lysander Montague wrote:

Credits.

10kCr - me
15kCr - Varka

So 25kCr it sounds like towards spec. cargo.

Lodic can contribute 50K (keeping some in reserve in case of emergencies, etc).

That would bring us up to 75kCr


UPP 7B8865
Primary Skills:
Computers 4, Deception 3, Stealth 3, Streetwise 3, Gun Combat (Slug Pistol) 3, Investigate 2, Persuasion 2, Gun Combat (Slug Rifles) 1, Mechanic-1, Survival-1
Secondary Skills:
Remote Sensors 0, Sensors 0, Comms 0, Vacc Suit 0, Athletics 0, Gunnery 0

Kenneth can throw in 12,000cr as well....


Male FreeTrader 385978

Please either use the SRD, or get a copy of the actual book... the playtest isn't right. :|

I added a ship tab that calculated some of the stuff regarding the ship.

Monthly cost: $44,791.86 incl. maintenance, fuel, staterooms, etc.

If I did all the math right..

Looks like our best bet is Feri. 60k profit on 69 tons (cargo plus mail), plus up to 21 tons of spec. cargo. That includes 1 high passage, 1 medium, and 4 (3 at a minor loss) low passage.

We'd need to hire a steward though, unless someone has the skill?


Male FreeTrader 385978
Kenneth deLacie wrote:
Kenneth can throw in 12,000cr as well....

Ok, got that.

Sheet with ship info...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gvCsMALZpaKTPdqEGYvs95pKEdXsMXWAJyW 7aN-I7hM/edit?usp=sharing

Should be editable via the link.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

Cargo with insuffucient information :
Mail is ambiguous, it's either 25,000 to take 5 tons of mail to BOTH Hefry and Feri, or half and half, or 5 tons each. Need a clarification. We don't have enough reason to run to Hefry as well.

12,500 : 5,000/ton : 2.5 tons Mail
OR
25,000 : 5,000/ton : 5 tons Mail

Passengers
30,000 cr : how much cargo do AFV's take up?
Human male salesrep with 2 military grade AFV's cargo travelling to Feri
Winston Taylor

Passenger Tonnage : 6 tons
Passengers : High/Middle (I assume the 'room for up to 3' means staterooms, and a shared stateroom takes up 1 of the 3, not 3 actual passengers)
15,000/ton : Zhodani Passengers Feri (2 tons)

15,000 : Human newlywed couple travelling to Enope (2 jumps required)

Passengers : Low Berths
1,200 : Human female teenager travelling to Feri Becca Myers

1,200 : Human male docks worker travelling to Feri Chan Wong Lee

1,500/Ton : Human male shopkeeper with 4 tons of Greenpoint Tobacco Cigars travelling to Feri Malcolm Grissom

1,200 : Vargr male vagabond travelling to Feri Graa'h Egron

Passenger Value of Trip to Feri : 36,600
Passenger Value of Trip to Enope : 15,000
Total Passenger Value : 51,600 credits

Leftover Tonnage (After Passengers) : 86-6 = 80 Tons

If we take 5tons of mail to Feri, that's 75 Tons left.

We need to know the consignment load. Where are you getting the 60K on 69 tons of cargo from?


Male FreeTrader 385978

Based on reading the trading rules, I took it as 5 tons to each world. 25k a pop.

Closet I could find is that AFVs are ATVs and ATVs take up 10tons each, so thats the 20 tons I used.

Go look at the sheet.

Relsanth Lodic Kelser wrote:

Cargo with insuffucient information :

Mail is ambiguous, it's either 25,000 to take 5 tons of mail to BOTH Hefry and Feri, or half and half, or 5 tons each. Need a clarification. We don't have enough reason to run to Hefry as well.

12,500 : 5,000/ton : 2.5 tons Mail
OR
25,000 : 5,000/ton : 5 tons Mail

Passengers
30,000 cr : how much cargo do AFV's take up?
Human male salesrep with 2 military grade AFV's cargo travelling to Feri
Winston Taylor

Passenger Tonnage : 6 tons
Passengers : High/Middle (I assume the 'room for up to 3' means staterooms, and a shared stateroom takes up 1 of the 3, not 3 actual passengers)
15,000/ton : Zhodani Passengers Feri (2 tons)

15,000 : Human newlywed couple travelling to Enope (2 jumps required)

Passengers : Low Berths
1,200 : Human female teenager travelling to Feri Becca Myers

1,200 : Human male docks worker travelling to Feri Chan Wong Lee

1,500/Ton : Human male shopkeeper with 4 tons of Greenpoint Tobacco Cigars travelling to Feri Malcolm Grissom

1,200 : Vargr male vagabond travelling to Feri Graa'h Egron

Passenger Value of Trip to Feri : 36,600
Passenger Value of Trip to Enope : 15,000
Total Passenger Value : 51,600 credits

Leftover Tonnage (After Passengers) : 86-6 = 80 Tons

If we take 5tons of mail to Feri, that's 75 Tons left.

We need to know the consignment load. Where are you getting the 60K on 69 tons of cargo from?


mdt wrote:
So in case you are actually thinking we're trying to game the system, may I submit that this is much more likely to be people trying hard to figure out what is and what isn't a go under the system and not us trying to annoy you by breaking...

I am sorry for unintended tones or accusatory impressions, they were not meant exactly as such. I have been dealing with personal health and work issues which have caused my sleep schedule to suffer. This has much to do with my irritability and for that I do apologize. As a rule I try to draft a message, walk away a few, then review it before posting. Not for terseness or offensiveness but more often spelling and grammar as well as to make sure it makes sense and is helpful, not belligerent. Sometimes this works but not always. I apologize if I have given anyone cause to reconsider joining the campaign or consideration to leave the game.

I did feel that a dead horse had been beaten over the cargo space required for land vehicles. I had tried to indicate the rule would not be changed for game balance but met with counters that served to distract from the game itself.

The core rules, while not always making realistic sense, were put into effect to cover weight and space limits for a 3d environment on a 2d gaming platform, i.e. graph paper. A human being may only take up a narrow 1.5m space but it also requires spacing for respiration, relaxation, movement, and other biological functions which must be considered. This was decided upon with the 4 dTon housing space requirement. The same basic idea was put into effect for air/rafts and speeders. It allowed room to rack it, work on it, fuel and load/off-load, etc. The drives take up XX amount of dTon space but do not fill it all with hard machinery. It is expected there are control stations, gangways, access panels, etc. for the operation, inspection, and repair of the drive itself. dTons are not equivalent to tons. I hate to quote the pound of feathers vs pound of lead analogy but perhaps for the game it would serve to illustrate the matter.

Also, because this is a space game with starships and planetary craft they ruled that certain grav vehicles can reach low orbit, but this was for emergency or special operations needs, not as everyday travel options. The grav choices you and the others have been looking at were added later to the game, and under differing rules systems which Mongoose tried to incorporate, with mixed success. Under planetary circumstances yes they may blow away the older air/rafts and ATV/AFV options. The rules stopped for them after mentioning they may reach a ship in orbit because at that point, they should stop. The rules for starships take over after that.


Lysander Montague wrote:
We'd need to hire a steward though, unless someone has the skill?

The space allotment onboard allows for the equivalent of a Steward 2 skill, rolled without ability modification but expect some complaining and fuss from the High Passage travelers missing out on a valet.


DM Rolls:

1: 2d6 + 4 ⇒ (3, 3) + 4 = 10
2: 1d6 ⇒ 5
3: 1d6 + 7 ⇒ (5) + 7 = 12
4: 1d6 + 6 ⇒ (5) + 6 = 11
5: 5d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 4, 6, 4) = 21
6: 12d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 6, 5, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 5, 3, 4) = 47
7: 11d6 ⇒ (5, 1, 3, 5, 3, 2, 6, 3, 5, 1, 3) = 37

Freight pallets available for delivery to Feri
One 1 ton parcel (Base rate is 1200 credits payment upon delivery)
Two 4 ton parcels (Base rate is 4800 credits payment upon delivery)
Two 6 ton parcels (Base rate is 7200 credits payment upon delivery)
Three 10 ton parcels (Base rate is 12000 credits payment upon delivery)
Five 15 ton parcels (Base rate is 18000 credits payment upon delivery)
Two 20 ton parcels (Base rate is 24000 credits payment upon delivery)
Four 25 ton parcels (Base rate is 30000 credits payment upon delivery)
Five 30 ton parcels (Base rate is 36000 credits payment upon delivery)
Three 50 ton parcels (Base rate is 60000 credits payment upon delivery)
One 60 ton parcel (Base rate is 72000 credits payment upon delivery)

IPS Contract Services for Feri
One 5 ton Mail Pallet (Base rate is 25000 credits payment upon delivery)


Lysander is correct, any tonnage a passenger carries over the 1 ton for High Passengers is deducted from the cargo hold's available space.


There are four double cabins and three single cabins onboard the Deneb Rising.

Theoretically the four doubles are used by the crew, each containing a double bunk arrangement. The singles have one queen sized bed for comparison.

High and Middle Passengers that wish to share a cabin agree to do so at the full rate for each ticket, not a half priced cabin unless specially negotiated down with you. Assumption will always start at full priced tickets. Part of the reason for this is life support, transit fuel and ration costs are calculated per body not cabin when considering travel tickets. *children under four travel free, one per adult ticket purchased.

The Zhodani couple for example each paid full price for one room but demanded the extra ton of space for their luggage, despite the one ton only set aside for the physical room. The second ton would either use the storage space for a booked middle passenger or be placed in the hold.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

No problem on the sleep thing, I know how that is, having chronic insomnia.

I'm still a bit confused. Just want to clear up.

So, a high-passage uses one of the staterooms. And the couple, paying for two tickets, would still stay in the one stateroom, leaving the other two available for passengers.

The other married couple would also be in a stateroom or a double bunk? The reason I ask is that I'm not sure what the difference is on our ship between a high and middle passage, as we appear to have only two sets of passage rooms, Staterooms and Low Berths (3 and 4 respectively).


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent
Lysander Montague wrote:

Based on reading the trading rules, I took it as 5 tons to each world. 25k a pop.

Closet I could find is that AFVs are ATVs and ATVs take up 10tons each, so thats the 20 tons I used.

Go look at the sheet.

I still don't see where you're getting 69 tons is what I am saying.

1 for Passengers
20 for AFV's (theoretically)
5 for mail (we aren't going the other direction)
3 for Cigars

29 tons, not 69 tons. Where's the other 40 tons coming from?

Also, the sheet is not available via the link.


Relsanth Lodic Kelser wrote:

No problem on the sleep thing, I know how that is, having chronic insomnia.

I'm still a bit confused. Just want to clear up.

So, a high-passage uses one of the staterooms. And the couple, paying for two tickets, would still stay in the one stateroom, leaving the other two available for passengers.

The other married couple would also be in a stateroom or a double bunk? The reason I ask is that I'm not sure what the difference is on our ship between a high and middle passage, as we appear to have only two sets of passage rooms, Staterooms and Low Berths (3 and 4 respectively).

The difference between High and Middle passages is in the amenities offered, but both use the same three cabins physically. High passage is considered first class with the run of the common areas, better meals, and more personalized service. Middle passage is the econo-lodge approach, buffet ration bars, cable in the cabin, and clean linens changed daily. The floor space is the same and a cabin used for High Passage one jump may be Middle the next, with no physical changes needed.

The low berths are cooler units, which slowly reduce body temp and put the passenger into a comfortable cold sleep for the duration of the trip. The emergency berths are quick freezers, more cramped than the low berths, and put the passenger into stasis for the duration of the trip. They also have more inherent risks associated with the process.


In a nutshell let me give you folks a synopsis of how I see the current game environment. This may give you an idea about how I picture the campaign. Any changes you want to make we can discuss and modify together, to avoid any problems down the line.

I am going to use scifi entertainment analogies, I think there should be enough shared imagery there to make this understandable.

A) For the universe there are five "known" major powers in play across the Spinward Marches at this point in the timeline, barring our divergence. New elements may come into play in the overall story, but how you deal or not deal with them is subject to you:

Third Imperium is akin to Starfleet (with touches of the Alliance regarding psionics) Star Trek/Firefly
Zhodani Consulate is akin to Klingons (just substitute psionics for a warrior's honor) Star Trek
Vargr Corsairs are like Reavers (without the, well nope, like the Reavers) Firefly
Darrian Confederation is akin to Vulcans (only less emotional, save when referring to the Sword Worlds Confederation) Star Trek
Sword Worlds Confederation is akin to Romulans (but without the pointy ears) Star Trek

B) The players are most likely to scamper about the space lanes ala Firefly, in their own version of Serenity. You are free to go when and where you wish, with your actions dictating how the universe around you unfolds and reacts. While I personally see the game being a mixed bag as time progresses the three basic themes are below:

Legal traders hauling freight and running what adventures you find, though nothing really stands out for this except maybe Babylon 5.

On the fringes, folks doing whatever comes along, like Malcolm Reynolds or Han Solo (looking for room for naughty men to sneak about) Firefly/Star Wars

Straight up bad guys ala how the Empire portrayed the Rebel Alliance, warrants, bounties, fighting both sides of the fence wherever you go. (You are spies, thieves and traitors) Star Wars

C) Dealing with the varying technology levels has always been a bit tricky for players to wrap their heads around. Certain worlds, generated at random originally, have technology levels ranging from the Stone Age to High Technology rarely dreamed of to the relics of the Ancients which warp the laws of physics themselves. How for such places to survive and thrive in a shared galaxy was the question.

The game could have allowed for a "Go West young man" approach, with everyone jumping from planet to planet, raping and pillaging natural resources, exploiting the indeginous peoples, ruining environments, etc. but the game designers wanted to avoid such topics. They attempted a sort of Prime Directive approach via the Traveller's Aid Society and Imperium dictates (Interdiction Zones and Alert Zones) Star Trek.

Planets which have been invited into the Third Imperium may trade for certain goods and technologies at established star ports under certain guidelines meant to balance the needs of both sides of the atmosphere. Some planets still live with nation states that war with one another so weapons and tools of advanced capabilities could easily tip the balance. Ergo Imperial edicts barring otherwise legal trade in such goods. Smuggling happens but bad people doing bad things means you risk having bad things happen to you back.

Some planets are steeped in differing cultural or religious practices and their needs had to be addressed as well. You cannot tell the people they are not alone in the galaxy, that their god(s) did not create them singularly in the universe without crashing their whole belief system. Yes some whackjobs will report aliens are real, "the Truth is Out There", but most ignore those folks. At least they do until such time as the society has progressed to the point Imperial contact rules are expanded and the tinfoil hat crowd crows in vindication. The rules are there so that players can find a variety of places to adventure, from barren wastelands to frontier western towns to centers of galactic power ala Dune, Firefly, or Coruscant respectively.

Does any of this give you a better understanding of how I see the campaign environment? I am happy to discuss my thoughts and decisions if you wish. If you see something differently let's talk about it. I want to have a good time story with this game as much as you should. I thought the group had decided more towards the trader/travel approach over espionage or mercenary tickets, maybe this has changed. I am open to modification, but we need to do that now before we truly get rolling and make that first Jump.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent

That's pretty much what I got. My personal thought (and Lodics) is that a new crew should keep to legal stuff certainly until they shake out the kinks in their crew and ship. Putting an untested team into a dodgy situation on an untested ship is a Bad Idea (like, french kissing light sockets while standing in a puddle of water naked Bad Idea).

Off hand, I think we should go with about a 50/50 mix of consignment and speculative cargo on the first run, that way we know we'll make a profit, and it'll either be slim or huge, depending on how the speculative goes.

25K from the mail is a good solid haul with little or no risk.

Consignment cargos we should pick the ones with the highest ratio of risk/reward. Some of the consignment cargos are worth more than others, and some have higher risks associated with them.


Male Darrien Retired Special Agent
Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:

Crunching Numbers

Operating costs for the ship Deneb Rising

Just want to clarify some numbers with the new things...

Varkha Gzegdoug wrote:

The core assumption is that for every one week of jump you also spend about 1 week of operations, landing and taking off, loading and unlaoding cargo, and so on. Most ship expenses are listed as monthly, but since there are 26 two-week periods in a year (and 12 months don't divide evenly into that) I am reverting my calculations to annual rates and then dividing by 26 to work out the cost per two-week "voyage."

I think this is correct.

Simplifying the numbers
Ship Loan
Base Ship Cost: 216.4 Mcr
-33% (shares) = 145
+20% (financing) = 174
/40 (annual payments) = 4.35 Mcr

Operating Costs Anually
Maintenance : 100*400*12 = 0.48 Mcr
Max Stateroom Annual Life Support : 11*2000*12 = 0.264 Mcr
Max Low Berth Annual Life Support : 4*100*12 = 0.0048 Mcr

Note, the Stateroom and Low Berth life support costs range from 0 (if we take no passengers, there's little/no life support overhead, no food, oxy-scrubbers used less, recycle of waste takes less, etc)

Annual Ship Payments : 4.35 Mcr
Min Annual Ship Maintenance : 0.48 Mcr
Max Annual Ship Maintenance : 0.75 Mcr

Not including crew salaries, or fuel costs (since we can scoop fuel), the total annual cost to operate the Deneb Rising is:

Min Total Annual Operating Costs : 4.83 Mcr
Max Total Annual Operating Costs : 5.10 Mcr

There are 26 two-week "periods" per year

Min Monthly Costs : 185,769
Max Monthly Costs : 196,153

The above numbers are slightly different than Varkrs due to rounding, but also are a bit more conservative and probably handle minor variances and issues.

So we need to earn 196 Kcr every jump in order to break even, and this is assuming we don't take salaries or pay for fuel.

We have 86 tons of cargo space.

We have total 3 staterooms for High/Mid passengers. We have Low Berth space for up to 4 passengers. High passengers get 1 ton of space, Mid passengers don't (If I read the GM's specs right on the two), but it's built into the ship that each stateroom has 1 ton of storage, that means if we don't have a passenger, or we have a High Passenger with no cargo, then we get a 'free' 1 ton for cargo to haul for other reasons.

Next posting will look at what we'd get for going to Feri, just off what we could do with the passengers going to Feri, Mail, and Consignments.


That "free" ton of cargo would be using the storage closets in the passenger area, not actual cargo hold space. Might be a bit awkward to get some items into and out of the area.

"Hey, who put these barrels of petrochemicals in the hallway? Sorry, the cupboard was already full of those ferrocarb drill bits..."

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