So, how do you protect your spellbooks?

It kinda depends on the character and possibly the GM I am playing with, I'd have some simple precautions in place to keep it safe like spellwards and reinforcing the book. A secret chest and spare scrolls seem a fair precaution when you get to that level, possibly make a deal with a very lawful or outsider sympathetic to your cause/religion to keep a copy safe by virtue of planar binding or ally.

I do not consider a wizard's spellbook off limits though as a GM I would rarely try to take away a player's spellbook. Sometimes players tend to be overly careless or feel like they are untouchable and fart in the face of powerful NPCs, thieves guilds, royalty or generals, while I am not going to gun for a PC directly pissing off NPCs without any solid reason might well have consequences, in short I am willing to portray my NPCs about as dickish as the PCs and sometimes going a step worse just to be proactive because being sheep doesn't fit their nature.

When you're playing a class that depends on a spellbook (or witch's familiar), what prrotections do you actually put on your spellbooks to protect against theft/destruction/etc.? How many backup spellbooks do you actually have and how do you protect them?

I'm not asking about what kind of protections you might use, but about what kind of protections you actually do use (by class level please).

I'm curious because I want to see what risk mitigation strategies (given the limited wealth available as per WBL) are in actual play. On the one hand, every gold piece spent on protecting your spells is a gold piece you can't spend elsewhere. On the other hand, every gold piece not spent protecting spells known increasess the potential for cataclysmic failure.

So, how do the majority of real players playing real games handle this issue?

I havea Magical Book Wurm. He may just help you out. :D

As a DM I consider the spellbook fair game. But moderate precautions, such as those listed by Kenderkin, LazarX, and the inventively paranoid DreamAtelier will be adequate to keep it safe.

As a player I usually try to keep a second copy someplace safe.

Inventively paranoid, you say?

Well, true, and I thank you for the compliment. I also tend to write thesis length plans for how we should deal with BBEGs who are wizard for our group, and consequently expect to be treated as a similar threat by our enemies (and I'm usually pretty explicit about telling DMs that I expect that).

So, when you explicitly tell a DM you expect your class weakness of a spell book to be considered fair game in the game... you'd kind of be a bit of a fool not to engage in protections for it.

Ironically, the protections on the spell book have proven to save the party's bacon more often than you might expect. When the party finds themselves on the wrong end of a bandit ambush while we're weakened, we tend to be more willing to put up just a token resistance, and let ourselves be captured.

Then out come the bluff rolls and fast talking to get all the enemies to believe that "the covered chest over there is where all the good stuff is" and similar such things. It works out rather well, particularly if everyone in the party is on the same page, and launches a counter attack right as the protections go off.

Similarly, at least once a campaign our stronghold/treasures have been saved by the spell book's protections going off when someone attempts to steal it along with other things, or infiltrators have simply made the mistake of getting too close while they were killing our followers.

And it's always fun when you can play the wizard who sits there looking smug the morning after something like that happens, while the rest of the party is trying to figure out where the loopholes in their defenses were.

It does seem to me that one of the balancing factors of wizards are there destroyable spell book. I've had campaign's where crossing rivers was right out, cause the wizard was worried about his spell book. I've have games where the threat of a fireball will keep a wizard from peeking his head up during a fight. It's why I have very little interest in wizards, too easy to handicap, too dependent on stuff. A barbarian could be naked and still a threat, a wizard, not so much.

It does seem to me that one of the balancing factors of wizards are there destroyable spell book. I've had campaign's where crossing rivers was right out, cause the wizard was worried about his spell book. I've have games where the threat of a fireball will keep a wizard from peeking his head up during a fight. It's why I have very little interest in wizards, too easy to handicap, too dependent on stuff. A barbarian could be naked and still a threat, a wizard, not so much.

Spell Mastery, using spells which require no material component, covers this weakness handily.

Assuming he's fighting something that uses weapons. Not everything does. So, if he's fighting Behir or Hydra or whatever, he's basically up a creek without a paddle.

Not really. Did I mention that a stick counts as a quarterstaff or a club as per weapon descriptions? Because they do. A fighter who loses a sword can get most of his effectiveness back by picking up a stick. Or they can pick up pretty much anything and use it as an improvised weapon at penulty! Losing their weapon is a marginal set-back at best.

What happens to a wizard when they lose their spellbook? They can't prepare spells. You know, the one thing their class does. The thing that separates a wizard from a commoner. How can you say that's not "needed to function on a basic level"?

Just like the Behir fighting Fighter I just mentioned

I'm going to open this up to more than fighters because you seemed to have gotten hung up on the fighter and missed the entire point I was making.

A fighter who loses his weapon is at a marginal disadvantage, he can still use and improvised weapons, he still has all those spiffy bonus feats. A rogue in the same situation is similarly affected. He can use an improvised weapon, and still has all his talents and gets sneak attack damage. A barbarian can still attack with an improvised weapon and still has his rage and rage powers. You haven't hampered any of these guys to unplayability by taking or destroying one item.

A wizard can't pick up a rock and use it as an "improvised spellbook." You destroy his spellbook, he becomes a commoner.

That's why you take those precautions/counter measures beforehand to mitigate the risk

Again, completely missing the point. I'm completely aware you can squander resources to protect it. I just think forcing someone too is stupid. No other class has to spend resources to protect the basic ability of their class.

No, making the wizard invest resources to protect his feats is the same as making the fighter invest resources to protect his feats (notice: feats == feats pretty easy to understand that way) and making the wizard invest resources to protect his equipment (which includes spellbooks) is the same as making the fighter invest resources to protect his equipment (which includes weapons/armor)
(notice: equipment == equipment surprisingly really easy to understand)

Emphasis mine for undue hostility.

The other thing I'd point out is that a few comments made here seem to imply that Spell mastery is considered a feat for learning weak spells by a lot of people contributing to this discussion...

Personally, I've always thought that the feat should have changed it's pre-requisites to "prepares arcane spells" rather than "wizard level 1st". The implication of the wizard level 1st is that it's a feat which is intended for low level wizards, which I tend to find rather inaccurate.

To my mind, spell mastery is a superb feat, but one that a wizard should really be thinking about at level 9 or so. It isn't meant to be taken every time you turn around so you can prepare all your spells without it, or so that you have a bunch of first level spells always at your disposal... I see it more as being intended so that you can grab a few spells that you consider to be widely useful for the situations of "get me out of dodge so I can get a spare spell book and come back ready curb stomp some irritations."

Consider that at 9th level, your dedicated wizard is going to have an intelligence modifier of +6 to +8 (depending on luck and GP expenditure). That means six to eight spells that he can prepare without a spell book. So, you grab yourself teleportation, knock, greater invisibility, and another two to four spells that you consider integral to escaping.

And then you prepare those, escape, load up for bear, and come back.

It is also worth remembering that one of the specific rules of pathfinder is that attribute increase applies all it's bonuses retroactively. Just like raising your intelligence gives you more skill ranks to have spent at all your previous levels now, raising your intelligence gives you new spells to add to your list of spells mastered.

-----

Also, preferred spell isn't a bad investment for wizards who are worried about losing their spell books. Sure it's less spells than spell mastery, but it has a wider amount of utility in game, since it is always usable.

I've been playing D&D/Pathfinder for 25+ years and in that time have never had a DM hose one of my wizards by taking/destroying his spell book. And I've played with some pretty hard core ruthless DMs.

On occasion my wizard might be deprived of his spell book while captured, but it was always stashed in a trunk nearby to find after escaping our captors. I honestly don't think any DM that you can call a friend IRL is going to totally hose your character like that.

However, if your character does have backup spell books and scrolls plus the available cash and time to easily replace a spell book, I see no problem with a DM targeting a spell book. If he's nice he'll wait to do it when you have a lot of your spells still memorized so you can get by for a day or two until you can access your backups.

On the subject of sundering a weapon vs destroying a spell book, I think the true equivalent would be destroying a spell book vs reducing a fighter's BAB to 1, thus likely making him unqualified for most of his feats.

The last time I played a wizard (back in 3.5), Spell Mastery was an important part of his preparations.

Then, as soon as he was high enough level, he spent the XP to enchant his spellbook with invisibility and himself with see invisibility, both permanent.

On a related note, my character for our new campaign is a Charlatan2/Wizard2 who is starting play without a spell book. He just escaped from prison and has no money to buy scrolls let alone copy them into a spell book.

And that's the toned down character. Originally the GM and I were planning to have him start out with a Geas Quest on him that prevented him from casting spells at all, but it didn't make sense after we made some changes to his back story.

I think it makes my character so much cooler than normal. I do get to start one level higher than everyone else though, but it's not much of a benefit.

The last time I played a wizard (back in 3.5), Spell Mastery was an important part of his preparations.

Then, as soon as he was high enough level, he spent the XP to enchant his spellbook with invisibility and himself with see invisibility, both permanent.

That is made of win. :D

I may steal the permanent invisibility to add into my own little scheme at some point...

redcelt32 wrote:

You keep it with your clone. No wait, that comes much later..

+1 at high levels, keeping a backup spellbook with your clone is a no-brainer.

Normally I keep my spellbook in my backpack at low levels, in my haversack at mid to higher levels.

Never had it stolen, but have had it taken away when the party gets captured (etc). Definitely sucks, but doesn't happen often. Depending on the campaign style, I'll sometimes make a backup even at mid level (at low levels it's not really an option)

My witch doesn't do anything exceptional to protect her familiar (a dust mephit). He can't really be "stolen", but he can die. He can be raised though.

Emphasis mine.

LilithsThrall wrote:

Assuming he's fighting something that uses weapons. Not everything does. So, if he's fighting Behir or Hydra or whatever, he's basically up a creek without a paddle.

Not really. Did I mention that a stick counts as a quarterstaff or a club as per weapon descriptions? Because they do. A fighter who loses a sword can get most of his effectiveness back by picking up a stick. Or they can pick up pretty much anything and use it as an improvised weapon at penulty! Losing their weapon is a marginal set-back at best.

wombatkidd wrote:

What happens to a wizard when they lose their spellbook? They can't prepare spells. You know, the one thing their class does. The thing that separates a wizard from a commoner. How can you say that's not "needed to function on a basic level"?

LilithsThrall wrote:

Just like the Behir fighting Fighter I just mentioned

I'm going to open this up to more than fighters because you seemed to have gotten hung up on the fighter and missed the entire point I was making.

A fighter who loses his weapon is at a marginal disadvantage, he can still use and improvised weapons, he still has all those spiffy bonus feats. A rogue in the same situation is similarly affected. He can use an improvised weapon, and still has all his talents and gets sneak attack damage. A barbarian can still attack with an improvised weapon and still has his rage and rage powers. You haven't hampered any of these guys to unplayability by taking or destroying one item.

A wizard can't pick up a rock and use it as an "improvised spellbook." You destroy his spellbook, he becomes a commoner.

LilithsThrall wrote:

That's why you take those precautions/counter measures beforehand to mitigate the risk

Again, completely missing the point. I'm completely aware you can squander resources to protect it. I just think forcing someone too is stupid. No other class has to spend resources to protect the basic ability of...

I don't think anyone is forcing wizards to invest in protection, I think that LilithsThrall is merely pointing out that protection is a good idea (however I do like the idea of mafioso types walking up to wizards and saying "That's a nice spellbook, shame if something happened to it..."). And really past 3rd level what's the big deal with having some counter-measures in place? You wouldn't make a really expensive purchase that is integral to your life and not protect it in someway in the real world, like insurance on a house or car, would you? Sure your house might never burn down and it might seem like you're squandering resources on the insurance, but won't you look smart when the unlikely does happen and you're protected?

I do think you are right though, a wizard without a spellbook is pretty much just a commoner, but as far as I can tell, thems the breaks, the higher the power the greater the fall. For my own part I've never had a wizard have his spellbook destroyed, but that's never stopped me from making back ups just in case. What sort of wizards wouldn't make a back-up anyway? They must not take their careers very seriously if they think they can make a one time investment and never have to worry again.

And I think the only reason that LilithsThrall has pursued this line of thought with you so far is because you keep dropping the phrase "in my opinion" as if it's some sort of shield against criticism. If I were of the opinion that the sun moved through the sky because it was dragged by a chariot driven by a god I couldn't tell the people disagreeing with me that they aren't allowed to because it's my opinion. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Surprised Shrink Item hasn't been mentioned (I think?). A clothlike miniature spellbook is easy to hide and keep safe (even waterproof, stuffed into a stoppered metal flask). Obviously you'd want Permanency applied ASAP.

AvalonXQ wrote:

The last time I played a wizard (back in 3.5), Spell Mastery was an important part of his preparations.

Then, as soon as he was high enough level, he spent the XP to enchant his spellbook with invisibility and himself with see invisibility, both permanent.

That is made of win. :D

Thank you. This was the only wizard I have played since AD&D (1E). I had an incredibly good time doing broken things with him for no real plot related reason. Scry-and-die FTW!

Treantmonk wrote:

redcelt32 wrote:

You keep it with your clone. No wait, that comes much later..

+1 at high levels, keeping a backup spellbook with your clone is a no-brainer.

Normally I keep my spellbook in my backpack at low levels, in my haversack at mid to higher levels.

Never had it stolen, but have had it taken away when the party gets captured (etc). Definitely sucks, but doesn't happen often. Depending on the campaign style, I'll sometimes make a backup even at mid level (at low levels it's not really an option)

My witch doesn't do anything exceptional to protect her familiar (a dust mephit). He can't really be "stolen", but he can die. He can be raised though.

Emphasis mine.

That. When a witch's familliar dies all the witch has to do is to get the familiar's body and go find a druid capable of casting 5th level spells and raise the familiar.

Unfortunately you can't cast raise familiar on a mephit. That pesky outsider flaw is horrible. That's why I just clone mine.

I don't think anyone is forcing wizards to invest in protection, I think that LilithsThrall is merely pointing out that protection is a good idea (however I do like the idea of mafioso types walking up to wizards and saying "That's a nice spellbook, shame if something happened to it...").

If the spellbook is a valid target for steal and sunder attempts, or for rogues to come into the camp in the night and take, forcing them to protect it is exactly what you're doing. If they don't, they become a commoner. A choice between "expend resources to keep your class features or become a commoner" is no choice.

And really past 3rd level what's the big deal with having some counter-measures in place? You wouldn't make a really expensive purchase that is integral to your life and not protect it in someway in the real world, like insurance on a house or car, would you? Sure your house might never burn down and it might seem like you're squandering resources on the insurance, but won't you look smart when the unlikely does happen and you're protected?

Mostly because a rogue doesn't have to have countermeasures in place to stop someone from coming into the camp in the night and stealing his ability to perform sneak attacks.

I do think you are right though, a wizard without a spellbook is pretty much just a commoner, but as far as I can tell, thems the breaks, the higher the power the greater the fall.

Remind me never to play in a game with you as DM. If you would actually try to screw someone over like that, you're not the kind of dm I'd want to play with.

For my own part I've never had a wizard have his spellbook destroyed, but that's never stopped me from making back ups just in case. What sort of wizards wouldn't make a back-up anyway? They must not take their careers very seriously if they think they can make a one time investment and never have to worry again.

See my last point.

And I think the only reason that LilithsThrall has pursued this line of thought with you so far is because you keep dropping the phrase "in my opinion" as if it's some sort of shield against criticism.

Except it is.

If I were of the opinion that the sun moved through the sky because it was dragged by a chariot driven by a god I couldn't tell the people disagreeing with me that they aren't allowed to because it's my opinion. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

"The sun isn't pulled by a chariot" is a factual statement.

"This guy's a dick" is a subjective statement.

"A dm who would do this is a huge dick I would never play with" is just as valid an opinion as "no he's not".

Shrink Item + waterproof bag + a little intestinal fortitude...

I hid this uncomfortable [mini spell book] up my [portable hole] for two years.

Remind me never to play in a game with you as DM. If you would actually try to screw someone over like that, you're not the kind of dm I'd want to play with.

Clearly you're a glass-jaw so I wouldn't want you in my game anyway, but that's besides the point.

So what if a wizard can lose something that a rogue can't, if it bothers you that much play a class that doesn't rely on an easily destroyed/stolen item. The world isn't fair sometimes, it's just one of those things you're going to have to deal with.

If you go back and look at what you were claiming was an opinion it was the bit where LT was talking about equivalences, not whether someone was a dick and that was to what I was specifically referring. And no, saying that something is your opinion doesn't shield you from criticism, that's ridiculous on its face and falls apart if you think about it at all.

If only there were casters who didn't have to worry about a spell book.... woah is me ;)

Clearly you're a glass-jaw so I wouldn't want you in my game anyway, but that's besides the point.

Gee. I say I wouldn't want to play in a game if you were trying to screw me, and you insult me in response? WTF?

Some crap I didn't bother reading because he lost all credibility with me when he resorted to insults.

In my group the most common precaution is the most simple: a stash of scrolls hidden elsewhere. Honestly it isn't even that much of a hassle since you can scribe them yourself.

Personally I think that spellbooks/familiars are valid targets (as valid as anything else of value the party carries). Wizards should worry about them. It's one of their most obvious vulnerabilities.

That being said, I can only remember two occasions in which a wizard in my group has been deprived of his spellbook:

1) First wizard tried swimming across a river with no water protection,

2) Second wizard (not same person) was captured.

And as a side note, wizard number 2, still says that playing for a while with just the spells he had access via spell mastery feat was one of the best times he had playing this game. (Eventually he was able to find a new book from a defeated opponent).

It's honestly pretty difficult to destroy a wizards spellbook such that a make whole can't fix it. Theft is another issue, but ought not to be a frequent problem nor a permanent one. That said I strongly dislike DMs who make this sort of thing a habit, and if it happened more than once in a campaign I'd probably quit the campaign.

That being said I do like the flavor of the spellbook wards in UM (though I'm on the fence about the bonuses).

Not really. Did I mention that a stick counts as a quarterstaff or a club as per weapon descriptions? Because they do.

A club? You mean, that thing that does _1d6x20_ points of damage per attack? That's another way of saying 'handicapped'.

I personally wouldn't go out of my way to target the spellbook, and chances are that if I did, I wouldn't try to destroy the whole thing, but if the situation came up where it was genuinely threatened, either in part or whole, I wouldn't pull back just because it's a spellbook any more than I would deliberately go after it. It's the player's job to protect it, not mine, and if they fail to protect against x, and x comes up, too bad, especially at higher levels where the defenses are both cheap and plentiful.

wombatkidd wrote:

Not really. Did I mention that a stick counts as a quarterstaff or a club as per weapon descriptions? Because they do.

A club? You mean, that thing that does _1d6x20_ points of damage per attack? That's another way of saying 'handicapped'.

Vs 1d4x20 with poor BaB and low strength?

LilithsThrall wrote:

wombatkidd wrote:

Not really. Did I mention that a stick counts as a quarterstaff or a club as per weapon descriptions? Because they do.

A club? You mean, that thing that does _1d6x20_ points of damage per attack? That's another way of saying 'handicapped'.

Vs 1d4x20 with poor BaB and low strength?

A Wizard with Spell Mastery knows a number of spells without referencing his/her spell book equal to his/her Int mod. None of these are equal in power to 1d6x20. -- win Wizard

A Wizard who loses his/her spell book retains the spells currently memorized -- win Wizard

To compare those points to a Fighter losing his weapon, the Fighter would have to retain the use of his weapon for the rest of the day after it is sundered and then have it downgraded to something far better than 1d6x20.

The gold piece value of a lost longsword +3 should buy an equivalent level wizard enough spells to keep all his spell slots filled.

"The GM at my table doesn't do it because I've convinced him that I'd get incredibly upset if he did and also that I don't want to have to allocate any wealth to insure this from happening" is something some players actually try. If I tried to tell that to my GM, he'd just look at me with that "you've got to be kidding" look and I'd blush realizing that I just whined like a twit.

BEST QUOTE EVER!

:)

The ------>GM<------ should not be trying to deprive you of your spellbook. NPC's might. But keep in mind

however I do like the idea of mafioso types walking up to wizards and saying "That's a nice spellbook, shame if something happened to it..

- Is pretty likely to get a lightning bolt where the sun doesn't shine.

The thing with going against a wizard when you're not the omniscient dm is you don't know WHAT the hell they're going to do. They could be chaining their hewards handy haversack to their arm and have an entire LIBRARY worth of spell books in there... each with an exploding runes spell on it, or you could creep up on the wizards sleeping form only to find that the sleeping wizard is an illusion and the real wizard is in his own private dimension.

Its usually easier for an npc to just kill the wizard and pry it from his cold dead fingers.

The ------>GM<------ should not be trying to deprive you of your spellbook. NPC's might. But keep in mind

however I do like the idea of mafioso types walking up to wizards and saying "That's a nice spellbook, shame if something happened to it..

- Is pretty likely to get a lightning bolt where the sun doesn't shine.

The thing with going against a wizard when you're not the omniscient dm is you don't know WHAT the hell they're going to do. They could be chaining their hewards handy haversack to their arm and have an entire LIBRARY worth of spell books in there... each with an exploding runes spell on it, or you could creep up on the wizards sleeping form only to find that the sleeping wizard is an illusion and the real wizard is in his own private dimension.

Its usually easier for an npc to just kill the wizard and pry it from his cold dead fingers.

Excellent point.

A good GM plays the characters the way they would actually play. If you were an NPC and you could get a wizards spellbook, wouldn't you?

I mean, you would try to steal the fighters uber sword, wouldn't you? Or the Bard's instrument?

It is just like ambushing them when they sleep or making them deal with the law if they commit crimes. You make your players play in the world that exists. If you are dealing with stupid monsters, probably not.

If you are dealing with a well informed enemy with numerous contacts and the players don't take reasonable precautions...stuff happens.

As to how I protect it, a handy haversack is your friend for so many reasons, and investing in a back up spell book is always a good idea.

Well not bring in any dnd stuff here are a few ways, granted the higher your level the easier it is to protect.

Arcane Mark your spellbook for scrying and instant summons. Use Magic Aura to hide anything you may have done to it. Sepia Snake Symbol is always good. Shrink Item works well to and more so if you make it permanent so even if they take it unless they have a powerful magnifying glass they wont be able to read it.

Thats all I got off the top of my head. If you shrink it buy a false top ring or false bottom mug to hide it in. :)

Shrink item it, and use it as your underwear.
Permanency
Make sure you change in your rope trick, and not even let your fellow party members or any NPC know that's were you keep your spell book.
Have other spell books in case you get captured.
Chances are there not going to take your underwear.

Its kinda funny, picturing a wizard after everyone leaves the rope trick, taking off all his clothes, throwing down his underwear turning it into a spell book, studying for an hour naked, then turning it back into underwear and getting dressed.

A good GM plays the characters the way they would actually play. If you were an NPC and you could get a wizards spellbook, wouldn't you?

No, because I don't to have a living wizard pissed off at me. Any time i make someone THAT mad at me i want them dead in the next 18 seconds or less.

I mean, you would try to steal the fighters uber sword, wouldn't you? Or the Bard's instrument?

-Where is the fighters sword... in his hand. How do i get it? Disarm.

Where is the wizards spellbook when he's sleeping? In his handy haversack? In the rock under the fireplace? Under the pillow? Under the pet bed where "Bitey" the viper familiar sleeps?

Also keep in mind that a wizard doesn't loose spells until they're cast. Is a wizard out of spells from the day before or is the wizard still loaded for bear?

As the DM i know, but as NPC i probably shouldn't.

If you are dealing with a well informed enemy with numerous contacts and the players don't take reasonable precautions...stuff happens.

Who knows WHAT wizards do behind locked doors?

Its kinda funny, picturing a wizard after everyone leaves the rope trick, taking off all his clothes, throwing down his underwear turning it into a spell book, studying for an hour naked, then turning it back into underwear and getting dressed.

I think its gonna be pretty funny when the thieves cast Detect Magic (perhaps off a scroll using UMD, but I think if they plan to steal from a wizard, casting it should be expected) and finding that his underwear glows.

If *I* were in a world like this, working as a high level assassin, and had accepted a contract to kill a high level wizard, I'd hire a diviner and perhaps a bard to figure out where (and how) the wizard kept his spell books while he was adventuring. I'd take out those spell books. Then I'd wait.

I'd wait for the wizard to slowly run dry of his memorized spells. I'd watch to see what spells he's memorized with spell mastery. If necessary, I'd anonymously hire a couple of expendable thugs to attack the wizard to help run the wizard dry of his spells. (keep in mind that, as an assassin who regularly accepted contracts on powerful wizards, I'd keep nondetection up at all times).

I'd cast disjunction on him.

Then, I'd attack him.

Now, if that's what I'd do, then NPC assassins may well do the same thing.

I'd cast disjunction on him.

Then, I'd attack him.

So you're a Wizard 17 Assassin 3?

If *I* were in a world like this, working as a high level assassin, and had accepted a contract to kill a high level wizard, I'd hire a diviner and perhaps a bard to figure out where (and how) the wizard kept his spell books while he was adventuring. I'd take out those spell books. Then I'd wait.

I'd wait for the wizard to slowly run dry of his memorized spells. I'd watch to see what spells he's memorized with spell mastery. If necessary, I'd anonymously hire a couple of expendable thugs to attack the wizard to help run the wizard dry of his spells. (keep in mind that, as an assassin who regularly accepted contracts on powerful wizards, I'd keep nondetection up at all times).

I'd cast disjunction on him.

Then, I'd attack him.

Now, if that's what I'd do, then NPC assassins may well do the same thing.

A high level wizard would have a private demiplane, with clones, with back up copies of his spellbook, and would be smart enough to do nothing until he got another spellbook the moment his was gone. This is also not pointing out the fact that a high level wizard would have more then a few magical back ups in the form of staff, wands, and scrolls. Also expect contengencies which depending can foil even a Mage's Disjunction. Killing the wizard is not the problem, keeping him dead and from coming after you is. ;)

Quote:

A good GM plays the characters the way they would actually play. If you were an NPC and you could get a wizards spellbook, wouldn't you?

No, because I don't to have a living wizard pissed off at me. Any time i make someone THAT mad at me i want them dead in the next 18 seconds or less.

Quote:

I mean, you would try to steal the fighters uber sword, wouldn't you? Or the Bard's instrument?

-Where is the fighters sword... in his hand. How do i get it? Disarm.

Where is the wizards spellbook when he's sleeping? In his handy haversack? In the rock under the fireplace? Under the pillow? Under the pet bed where "Bitey" the viper familiar sleeps?

Also keep in mind that a wizard doesn't loose spells until they're cast. Is a wizard out of spells from the day before or is the wizard still loaded for bear?

As the DM i know, but as NPC i probably shouldn't.

Quote:

If you are dealing with a well informed enemy with numerous contacts and the players don't take reasonable precautions...stuff happens.

Who knows WHAT wizards do behind locked doors?

If only we were playing a game with thieves...oh wait, we are.

In combat the fighters sword is in his hand, and so it the wizards arcane bonded weapon.

If I can get the wizard spellbook, or somehow damage it, that wizard is very much nerfed. Hell have someone watch the party for a few days to see when and where the wizard likes to meditate. Since, you know, they have to do that every day.

How hard is that?

A traveling wizard needs to have their spell book available, get 8 hours of sleep and spend an hour meditating in order to get spells for the other 15 hours of the day. Why wouldn't an enemy try to take advantage of all of this?

I had a DM who had fey mess with us all night so none of the casters could get a good nights sleep. And it was our own damn fault for trying to sleep in a forest full of fey without taking proper precautions.

I love how the same people who claim "wizard god" are the ones who also seem to have DMs who never exploit wizard weaknesses.

Coincidence? I think not.

LilithsThrall wrote:

If *I* were in a world like this, working as a high level assassin, and had accepted a contract to kill a high level wizard, I'd hire a diviner and perhaps a bard to figure out where (and how) the wizard kept his spell books while he was adventuring. I'd take out those spell books. Then I'd wait.

I'd wait for the wizard to slowly run dry of his memorized spells. I'd watch to see what spells he's memorized with spell mastery. If necessary, I'd anonymously hire a couple of expendable thugs to attack the wizard to help run the wizard dry of his spells. (keep in mind that, as an assassin who regularly accepted contracts on powerful wizards, I'd keep nondetection up at all times).

I'd cast disjunction on him.

Then, I'd attack him.

Now, if that's what I'd do, then NPC assassins may well do the same thing.

A high level wizard would have a private demiplane, with clones, with back up copies of his spellbook, and would be smart enough to do nothing until he got another spellbook the moment his was gone. This is also not pointing out the fact that a high level wizard would have more then a few magical back ups in the form of staff, wands, and scrolls. Also expect contengencies which depending can foil even a Mage's Disjunction. Killing the wizard is not the problem, keeping him dead and from coming after you is. ;)

Not to mention that there are various protections from scrying as well.

OmniChaos wrote:

LilithsThrall wrote:

If *I* were in a world like this, working as a high level assassin, and had accepted a contract to kill a high level wizard, I'd hire a diviner and perhaps a bard to figure out where (and how) the wizard kept his spell books while he was adventuring. I'd take out those spell books. Then I'd wait.

I'd wait for the wizard to slowly run dry of his memorized spells. I'd watch to see what spells he's memorized with spell mastery. If necessary, I'd anonymously hire a couple of expendable thugs to attack the wizard to help run the wizard dry of his spells. (keep in mind that, as an assassin who regularly accepted contracts on powerful wizards, I'd keep nondetection up at all times).

I'd cast disjunction on him.

Then, I'd attack him.

Now, if that's what I'd do, then NPC assassins may well do the same thing.

A high level wizard would have a private demiplane, with clones, with back up copies of his spellbook, and would be smart enough to do nothing until he got another spellbook the moment his was gone. This is also not pointing out the fact that a high level wizard would have more then a few magical back ups in the form of staff, wands, and scrolls. Also expect contengencies which depending can foil even a Mage's Disjunction. Killing the wizard is not the problem, keeping him dead and from coming after you is. ;)

Not to mention that there are various protections from scrying as well.

See, I'm trying to figure out what protections wizard characters are actually using. In many cases, the answer has been "not much" (along with "how dare the DM even think about it!". In this case, the Wizard has spent a good deal of his WBL to create a demiplane, an army of clones, etc. This goes back to the same old tired ridiculousness of "in any Internet discussion, a Wizard has (and does not have) whatever is required to be God".

On the other hand, if we back things down to what's reasonable, many Wizards (Conjurers stand out as a big example) would, in fact, have nondetection or the like up all the time. That's why my assassin would consult with a bard as well as a diviner rather than just rely on magical forms of information gathering.

I love how the same people who claim "wizard god" are the ones who also seem to have DMs who never exploit wizard weaknesses.

Coincidence? I think not.

This really should have been in bold.

Mine stays in an extra dimensional space as soon as possible. The seeker of secrets book has a 1000GP little bag called a Pathfinder Pouch. You can "turn off" the effect and the pouch radiates as non magical so it's perfect for a spell book.

If I can get the wizard spellbook, or somehow damage it, that wizard is very much nerfed. Hell have someone watch the party for a few days to see when and where the wizard likes to meditate. Since, you know, they have to do that every day.

How hard is that?

Considering everything that can go wrong with stealth, and that a rogue can't steal a chicken, and wizards are notoriously hard to scry on given a good will save and detect magic spams... very.

A traveling wizard needs to have their spell book available, get 8 hours of sleep and spend an hour meditating in order to get spells for the other 15 hours of the day. Why wouldn't an enemy try to take advantage of all of this?

Actually they don't. If a wizard is traveling on day 1 and doesn't nuke anything on days 1,2, and 3 then on day 4 with no studying he has a head full of wonton death and destruction.

Also keep in mind that the wizard doesn't have their level painted on their forehead. If you see a wizard cast mage armor and a scorching ray you don't know if they're going all out or conserving their strength because the druid doesn't want them casting [i]hell's inferno of fiery burning death[i] in the middle of the woods.

Adventuring party's that are worth stealing from will have at least one person with high perception scores, and if they notice you following them they're VERY likely to do something about it. Something involving large pointy sticks.

I had a DM who had fey mess with us all night so none of the casters could get a good nights sleep. And it was our own damn fault for trying to sleep in a forest full of fey without taking proper precautions.

That only works on the arcane types, and then not very well.

I love how the same people who claim "wizard god" are the ones who also seem to have DMs who never exploit wizard weaknesses.

Coincidence? I think not.

I love how the people objecting to the wizard god need to use an omnicient DMNPC to make their point. The fact is the wizards kidney is a whole lot more vulnerable than his spellbook.

See, I'm trying to figure out what protections wizard characters are actually using. In many cases, the answer has been "not much"

Well, my wizard is pushing 10th level and he uses...no protections on his spellbook. Wizards are more rare in our campaign, money is tight, and I'm running around fighting a war, not lounging in an inn waiting for thieves to come steal my spellbook - not that they could sell it to anybody anyways, as there are only a handful of wizards around to sell it to, and most of them already know who I am "You stole who's book?" <ZAP!>. Mostly I try to keep my books (two at the moment) dry and out of sight. When I actually get some downtime I'll make copies for backup purposes, but we've literally been running from crisis to crisis since about 6th level.

Stuff

From the book

"He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."

Means for 9 hours a day you aren't moving. More than 1/3 of the day You are sleeping or you are meditating. This is a specific weakness of the class. As you point out, divine casters only have to meditate for an hour, Wizards need to both rest and meditate. It is a wizard specific thing, just like lugging around that spell book. Sorcerers don't need to. Witches do.

Why?

Because it is a balancing weakness.

Is sundering/disarming a weapon going after the fighter? Nope. So why is interrupted sleep, spellbook theft or destructions, etc?

Would you also argue attacking a witch familiar is off-limits?

It is no wonder you think Wizards are over-powered if all of the features added to balance them are off limits in your games...

Adventuring party's that are worth stealing from will have at least one person with high perception scores, and if they notice you following them they're VERY likely to do something about it. Something involving large pointy sticks.

They may have high perception but a low sense motive:

Or, a spy worth his salt fakes being the victim of an attack where he knows the Party will run across him. After they "rescue" him, he begs them to let him travel with them until he can get "Some Place Safe". He plays to the Heroic aspects of the PCs. If he planned right and can travel with the party for several days, he can probably gauge their power level and many of their quirks by careful observation.

As to some of the previous points... Stealing the 9th level wizards spell book is very similar to stealing the 9th level fighter's +3 flaming sword or the 9th level rogue's +3 short sword. Yes, the fighter can pick up a stick and have a club. With Clerical support, it can even be a +2 club [Greater Magic Weapon cast by a 9th level cleric].

However, since it is unlikely that the fighter has Weapon Focus (Some stick I picked up by the side of the road) or Weapon Specializations along the same lines, or, really, any feats that that are useful in this situation, said fighter is now at a diminished capacity. His feats are his class abilities, those feats must be chosen in a given direction, and, once deprived of that direction, he has a similar problem to the wizard deprived of his class ability (the spell book). The fighter needs to get his weapon back or another of the same type so that he can raise his effectiveness again. Same as the wizard.

The rogue has a similar problem with sneak attacking. He, too, can pick up a stick as an improvised weapon and sneak attack with it so he's not totally useless. However, with his average BAB progression, that improvised weapon penalty is going to hurt him much more than it did the fighter. He can still sneak attack, but he's going to land it less often and therefore he, also, is at a diminished capacity. Again, same as the wizard.

The wizard, as the two previous examples, is diminished -- but not useless -- having lost his spell book. As was pointed out, he still has the spells he had memorized and not used from the day before. He must be more judicious in their use, but he is not a Commoner by any stretch of the imagination until he is run completely out of spells.

If you really want to hose a character out in the wilderness, steal the cleric's holy symbol. Suddenly, no castings with a DF are possible. You'd better hope that Wand of Cure Light is still there. It's not like the Cleric can improvise a holy symbol without a Trait or caveat.

The rogue and fighter have the option of much cheaper protections than the wizard. They just have to have their sword "peace-bound" in their scabbards and the scabbard belt looped over them while they sleep. However, if they don't take some precautions, they may find themselves sans weapons when morning rolls around. The cleric probably sleeps with his holy symbol grasped tightly as a matter of course. Still, it is possible to steal just about any of those items if the GM is really determined.

Now, having said that, I would probably call "zombie bs" on a GM that stole any of the party assets on a whim. If there's a solid story reason to deprive the paladin of his holy avenger, great, let's go get it back from the Mean Thing(tm) that stole it from him. If an improbable series of events led to the wizard's spell book disappearing with no way to trace the culprit because the GM was fed up with the wizard "ruining all his carefully planned encounters"? Yeah, I wouldn't play there anymore, either.

--JD

Good stuff

I agree it shouldn't be on a whim. But I would argue "Because you weren't taking any reasonable precautions to protect/hide it" isn't a whim.

The GM should play the NPC's as he believes they would play. And you can't tell me a smart NPC wouldn't try to take advantage of players not protecting themselves reasonably.

From the book

"He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."

From "Spell Selection and Preparation" (p218 CRB): Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used.

The wizard is good until run out of spells. However...

From "Preparation Environment" (same page, CRB): To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying.

Emphasis mine... Rather than stealing the spell book, the GM can just have it be constantly raining during an over-land hike. The wizard can't prepare spells unless he can get out of the rain.

--JD

[See, I'm trying to figure out what protections wizard characters are actually using. In many cases, the answer has been "not much" (along with "how dare the DM even think about it!". In this case, the Wizard has spent a good deal of his WBL to create a demiplane, an army of clones, etc. This goes back to the same old tired ridiculousness of "in any Internet discussion, a Wizard has (and does not have) whatever is required to be God".

On the other hand, if we back things down to what's reasonable, many Wizards (Conjurers stand out as a big example) would, in fact, have nondetection or the like up all the time. That's why my assassin would consult with a bard as well as a diviner rather than just rely on magical forms of information gathering.

Many wizard players don't bother for the simple reason is that a large contingent of us mainly play Pathfinder in the venue of PFS play. And basically it's a fairly safe assumption in that venue that you're not looking to crowd a 4 hour time slot by singling out the wizard's spell book as long as it's not standing out on a table all alone with a sign reading "BURN OR STEAL ME PLEASE", that the placement of most books deep inside a backpack is sufficient to the day. And for most PFS play ... it IS. When I run a PFS module I don't frame my encounters with the overriding thoughts of.. "Is there a wizards book I can steal or burn, a Fighter's sword to sunder?, A Ranger's bow to break? or a rogue's hands to chop off?" Any more than I ask players if they schedule bathroom breaks for the characters.

There are FAR more interesting things to do to players in the context of modules themselves.