I'm afraid I can't contribute much to this discussion as the last time I played a wizard was the first time I played any form of d&d. My GM didn't seem to have any intentions of personally screwing over my character at the time. Furthermore, it never occurred to me that a spellbook could be taken. lol, n00bs and such.
...but I'll be watching this thread closely; I'm starting a 4th level wizard this Saturday. I've calculated the cost of duplicating the spellbook and I have a few places in mind where I could keep it if I do, but I think I'm going to hold back on doing so for a few levels. Hopefully I won't regret it.
EDIT: As for protection, that's also uncharted territory for me. GM never mentioned that it could be done, so I didn't think about it.
Most of the time there just isn't a point. Either the runner never does anything with the book, or if they decide to they ignore any defense you have.
Most time a few defensive spells like Symbol of whatever is good enough.
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Stealing/damaging a spell book is no more "screwing over a character" than sundering a weapon.
I beg to differ. Spellbooks tend to be far rarer and, at times, far more expensive then even the most powerful weapons. The fighter could use any old weapon off an enemies corpse, likely only suffering a few minor attack and damage penalties compared to his original.
If I had a million dollars for every spellbook I captured in an actual game I'd be a hobo on the streets. If I had a dollar for every weapon our party had captured, however, I would be able to pay off my college tuition.
Stealing/damaging a spell book is no more "screwing over a character" than sundering a weapon. But, if I were GMing a new player, I wouldn't do it either. It is something, as you gain experience, of which you should keep mindful.I'm afraid I can't contribute much to this discussion as the last time I played a wizard was the first time I played any form of d&d. My GM didn't seem to have any intentions of personally screwing over my character at the time. Furthermore, it never occurred to me that a spellbook could be taken. lol, n00bs and such.
...but I'll be watching this thread closely; I'm starting a 4th level wizard this Saturday. I've calculated the cost of duplicating the spellbook and I have a few places in mind where I could keep it if I do, but I think I'm going to hold back on doing so for a few levels. Hopefully I won't regret it.
EDIT: As for protection, that's also uncharted territory for me. GM never mentioned that it could be done, so I didn't think about it.
Well, perhaps that choice of language was too strong. At the same time, it's not quite equivalent. When a fighter's super shiny sword is sundered, if he sunk 5 gp into a backup blade or takes a blade of some recently slain foe, then he's still a reasonably effective combatant. When a wizard is without his spellbook, he's basically a commoner.
@dunelord - Technically yes, your GM can create any number of implausible ways to deprive you of your spellbook, regardless of your defenses. Doesn't mean it's a bad idea to make a backup copy. Perhaps if you do, your GM will only inconvenience with having to retrieve the backup copy from wherever it's stored, as opposed to trying to find the stolen copy or worse yet, start from scratch.
EDIT: @Ravingdork - What he said.
When I play wizards I usually scribe a scroll of each new spell I get and keep them stashed away somewhere safe should my spellbooks be lost to me. Wizards get that feat for free and you scribe at half cost it is a relatively minor investment, all things considered. That way, I can scribe a new spellbook with all of my favorite spells later. There are a few (easy) skill checks involved, and it may take some time, but is better than starting from scratch. And if the spellbooks remain safe, then I can always get the money I spent back by selling some of the scrolls or even using them in an emergency.
Otherwise I like to have a ring of sustenance when I can afford in, as it lets me keep awake and alert to guard my spellbook among other things, but the alarm spell can be usefull to get through a rest without needing to worry about someone sneaking off with it in the middle of the night as well.
I generally don't bother trapping my spellbook, especially with a trap that may harm the spellbook that I likely hope to recover, though I have been known to occassionaly use a Sepia Snake Sigil. Generally though, these are purely thematic precautions as I generally don't expect to have my spellbooks stolen, and if a GM really wants to take it from a wizard he'll sidestep any precautions in place anyway.
Where do you usually store these scrolls? Do you build a room and ward it and build constructs to guard it? Do you do something more modest?When I play wizards I usually scribe a scroll of each new spell I get and keep them stashed away somewhere safe should my spellbooks be lost to me. Wizards get that feat for free and you scribe at half cost it is a relatively minor investment, all things considered. That way, I can scribe a new spellbook with all of my favorite spells later. There are a few (easy) skill checks involved, and it may take some time, but is better than starting from scratch. And if the spellbooks remain safe, then I can always get the money I spent back by selling some of the scrolls or even using them in an emergency.
Otherwise I like to have a ring of sustenance when I can afford in, as it lets me keep awake and alert to guard my spellbook among other things, but the alarm spell can be usefull to get through a rest without needing to worry about someone sneaking off with it in the middle of the night as well.
I generally don't bother trapping my spellbook, especially with a trap that may harm the spellbook that I likely hope to recover, though I have been known to occassionaly use a Sepia Snake Sigil. Generally though, these are purely thematic precautions as I generally don't expect to have my spellbooks stolen, and if a GM really wants to take it from a wizard he'll sidestep any precautions in place anyway.
It is completely dependent on the campaign and level. If I'm high enough level and powerful (read: rich) enough to maintain a tower as a home base for the party, likely there, stashed someplace hidden. Sometimes at the home of the character, possibly with family, usually the case with lower level characters. Occasionally in secret chest or like places. Every once in a while I do something creative. I once had a 10' by 10' by 10' hole hallowed out several hundred feet in the ground below a town we frequented and could D-Door the stash as needed with some little mark or sign for myself so I knew exactly where to stand when I teleported downward, but was meaningless to anyone else who happened upon it (this is also where we kept party funds when we didn't feel like hauling it around). I should note, in that last example, don't let a vindictive party member know how the trick works, otherwise you might be in for a very painful practical joke.
I keep it in the bottom of my backpack when not actively reading it. I might have a sepia snake sigil, don't recall if I got around to putting that on.
A little more detail:
The wizard I'm currently playing is a 10th level Enchantress, who is part of a large adventuring guild which contains 3 other wizards. I have two back ups. One is my old spellbook, from before I got a blessed book and copied everything over. I think I was 6th level at the time (so it has a selection up to 3rd level spells. The other is a crystal spellbook (from the Eberron setting) which I keep a 20 pages worth of emergency spells in. If something ever happened to my active book, I could just use the spares, or use the books of the other guild wizards to re-scribe all the spells I need. We generally make sure that no spell can only be found in one book.
I realize that most adventuring wizards don't have a nice safety net like I do in case they need to reconstruct their books, so might want to have a good back up. With the luxury of being able to get everything back without having to pay before hand I can skip that.
But you wanted real game stories, and that's mine.
I had a player that put his grimoire in a portable hole, the portable hole in a small string tied to one of his tooth... And SWALLOWED it. Tell me about paranoia.
I had an Abjurant Champion that put adamantine plates as the cover of his grimoire... And used it as a shield! Hehehe.
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When you're playing a class that depends on a spellbook (or witch's familiar), what prrotections do you actually put on your spellbooks to protect against theft/destruction/etc.? How many backup spellbooks do you actually have and how do you protect them?
I'm not asking about what kind of protections you might use, but about what kind of protections you actually do use (by class level please).
I'm curious because I want to see what risk mitigation strategies (given the limited wealth available as per WBL) are in actual play. On the one hand, every gold piece spent on protecting your spells is a gold piece you can't spend elsewhere. On the other hand, every gold piece not spent protecting spells known increasess the potential for cataclysmic failure.
So, how do the majority of real players playing real games handle this issue?
I do it by not playing with a DM who's out to screw me over.
Seriously, in my mind the DM who goes after the wizard's spell book is in the same league of dickishness as the DM who sets up morally impossible situations to force a paladin to fall.
Blessed book backups are cost effective. moreso than traditional spellbooks because of the 100gp per page cost waiver. so if you are making them yourself at 6250 they quickly pay for themselves. once you get or make one of these and transfer your spells i recommend if you are high enough level to cast a perm shrink item on the original, although thats 11th level you'll have to have about 7500 gp in diamond dust to spare. but then you can fold it up and stash it somewhere safe, like a secret compartment ring, or in your shoe or as hat if you know origami and decide not to shrink it. alarm stones are good. traps are good. symbols are good. a charmed juvenile mimic disguised as your spellbook might be a nice pet for the backpack, just don't forget to feed it.
The DM who sets up morally impossible situations to force a paladin to fail sets up situations in which the paladin is going to lose.A wizard can survive a DM who goes after his spell books - by providing protections/back up books/etc.
So, no, these aren't equivalent.
In your opinion. I disagree. Which is why I've never done either.
Toss it in a handy haversack. It should be fine. If the DM is gunning for you, you're hosed.
a wizard is screwed without thier spellbook. unless they take extremely costly precautions that likely are difficult to perform until they gained several levels under thier belt.
but a witch is even more screwed without thier familiar, because a witch cannot just get a backup familiar. and thier familiar costs more than a level appropriate spellbook to replace. and they are commoners for a whole week.
not every DM awards the amounts of cash required for a wizard to keep more than one, maybe two backup spellbooks. and these backups take time to scribe. unless you are playing the later half of rise of the runelords, i doubt there is another AP similarly loaded with potential backup spellbooks. Sins of our Saviors is a wizard's wet dream. i doubt most DMs give endless creation time. they probably limit it as desired.
Okay, a smart player running a Wizard - one who knows how to protect it and secure back ups can survive a DM who goes after his spell books barring the DM using a Deus ex Machina.In your opinion. I disagree. Which is why I've never done either.
The DM who sets up morally impossible situations to force a paladin to fail sets up situations in which the paladin is going to lose.A wizard can survive a DM who goes after his spell books - by providing protections/back up books/etc.
So, no, these aren't equivalent.
And requiring a player to squander resources on protecting something needed for their class to function on a basic level when no one else has to is dickish. All I said was that in my opinion it borders on the same level of dickishness as trying to screw over a paladin. I never said they were 1:1 equivalent.
things I like
+1
*random aside*
Good news from my GM! He won't be considering my spellbook as a legitimate target in the upcoming campaign. Maybe something could happen to it, but no surprisingly clever bandits surpassing all odds to "appropriate" my spellbook. I, the squishy wizard, on the other hand, am still a legitimate target. :/
*random aside*
Good news from my GM! He won't be considering my spellbook as a legitimate target in the upcoming campaign. Maybe something could happen to it, but no surprisingly clever bandits surpassing all odds to "appropriate" my spellbook. I, the squishy wizard, on the other hand, am still a legitimate target. :/
Good to hear. :D
A spellbook is no more required for a wizard to function on a basic level than a weapon is required for a fighter.
I wasn't going to argue about this. But since you seem so intent on starting an argument over something I expressly stated as being my opinion in the first place, I'll oblige you.
What happens to a fighter who's sword is sundered? It gains the broken conditon but he can still use it at a penulty! If worse comes to worse, it gets destroyed and he has to buy a new one. But what does that do to for right now? Not a hell of a lot. Nothing's stopping him from disarming someone and taking their weapon, or taking any weapon off a nearby corpse. His effectiveness might be marginally hampered in the short term.
What happens to a wizard when they lose their spellbook? They can't prepare spells. You know, the one thing their class does. The thing that separates a wizard from a commoner. How can you say that's not "needed to function on a basic level"? And it's not like replacing the thing is easy. You have to get a new spellbook and copy all your spells back into it, which requires scrolls or another spellbook to copy from. And can take days depending on your level. Making the wizard squander resourses on protecting his spellbook isn't the same as making a fighter do that for his sword. It's the same as making a fighter do that for his feats or making a barbarian do that for his rage.
What happens to a fighter who's sword is sundered? It gains the broken conditon but he can still use it at a penulty!
You can opt to destroy an item you sunder that's reduced to 0 hp.
And it is also possible for a spellbook to be broken, but not destroyed much the same as a weapon.
And a wizard can still prepare spells without a book. Read Magic, and anything with Spell Mastery.
And a wizard can still prepare spells without a book. Read Magic, and anything with Spell Mastery.
oh yay, a cantrip that lets me read those glowing glyphs, too bad i know that they will have some nasty effect on me/
oh, yay, a feat for a handful of basic spells i cannot ever change, i may as well have become a gimped sorcerer. i better hope these have generally useful applications.
And requiring a player to squander resources on protecting something needed for their class to function on a basic level when no one else has to is dickish. All I said was that in my opinion it borders on the same level of dickishness as trying to screw over a paladin. I never said they were 1:1 equivalent.A spellbook is no more required for a wizard to function on a basic level than a weapon is required for a fighter. So, if your GM is gonna be fair, he's just eliminated disarming and sundering of weapons as well as stealing of a lot of gear.
I just find it hilarious that people are whining when what is widely considered the most powerful class in the game has a weakness exploited.
The Chort:
A good GM will never have surprisingly clever bandits surpass all odds to appropriate your spellbook. But he will have thieves make reasonable attempts to steal things of value. That's what thieves do.In addition to thieves, you've got normal environmental damage (water damage for example), assassins (at least the kind that aren't deliberately nerfed) smart enough to attack where their enemy is weakest, and accident (of which, as adventurers, there will be plenty).
But, your table will be run the way your table will be run.
I'd sooner be the unarmed fighter (or fighter with 5 gp weapon) with full BAB and d10 HD than the wizard without a spellbook. What can I say? It sucks to be made a worthless character. Are wizards really powerful? Sure. Do you need to punish your players for playing them? Hopefully not.
Actually my GM did mention that environmental damage is fair game, just not the thieves. Thus, a spare spellbook stored away could be a worthwhile investment, but no need to spend thousands on all sorts of material components for Symbol spells, Secret Chest, etc.
While I guess it would be unfair to construe the theft of a spellbook as absolute evidence of the GM being jerk, that's often how it can play out. How to put this; make sure it's what you had in mind as a challenge for your players. Not just as some counter-measure against a min/max-ed wizard you feel needs to be cut down to size. So long as players are still having fun, it's all good.
And a wizard can still prepare spells without a book. Read Magic, and anything with Spell Mastery.oh yay, a cantrip that lets me read those glowing glyphs, too bad i know that they will have some nasty effect on me/
oh, yay, a feat for a handful of basic spells i cannot ever change, i may as well have become a gimped sorcerer. i better hope these have generally useful applications.
Or are flesh to stone with spell perfection.
I haven't played a wizard in a while, but I'd just suggest a Bag of Holding. Place the bag on a rope hanging inside your shirt/robe/whatever, so it can't be pickpocketed.
Or are flesh to stone with spell perfection.
And a wizard can still prepare spells without a book. Read Magic, and anything with Spell Mastery.oh yay, a cantrip that lets me read those glowing glyphs, too bad i know that they will have some nasty effect on me/
oh, yay, a feat for a handful of basic spells i cannot ever change, i may as well have become a gimped sorcerer. i better hope these have generally useful applications.
sorry, but that requires you be 11th level to cast flesh to stone. most campaigns rarely go too far above 10th. and with Weekly William. he tries everything he can to make leveling take forever. so that spell you mentioned isn't really going to help. and you have to be around 15th to take spell perfection. you are talking WAY beyond endgame with Weekly William, that there is post campaign end stuff.
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Or are flesh to stone with spell perfection.sorry, but that requires you be 11th level to cast flesh to stone. most campaigns rarely go too far above 10th. and with Weekly William. he tries everything he can to make leveling take forever. so that spell you mentioned isn't really going to help. and you have to be around 15th to take spell perfection. you are talking WAY beyond endgame with Weekly William, that there is post campaign end stuff.
TRULY, SQUISHY SPELLBOOK AM MORE PROOF OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
AM NO REASON TO PLAY ANY OTHER CLASS. CASTYS AM FAIL.
BARBARIAN REST CASE.
Stealing/damaging a spell book is no more "screwing over a character" than sundering a weapon.I beg to differ. Spellbooks tend to be far rarer and, at times, far more expensive then even the most powerful weapons. The fighter could use any old weapon off an enemies corpse, likely only suffering a few minor attack and damage penalties compared to his original.
If I had a million dollars for every spellbook I captured in an actual game I'd be a hobo on the streets. If I had a dollar for every weapon our party had captured, however, I would be able to pay off my college tuition.
While i agree with most of your post in general, i have to disagree with the spellbooks being more expensive than even the most powerful weapons, as long as by powerful weapons you don't mean nodachi>falchion and don't use any house rules for calculating the price of the spellbook then there is no chance for a wizards spellbook to be worthing more gp if selled than the fighter's main weapon after 2nd level.
Other than that i have no problem if all of the party's equipment is stolen, what i have a problem with is my spellbook being the only item stolen (and no let's say the two +2 weapons lying around) while my wizard has done nothing to cause someone to target only him.
Usually, my wizards :
* cast Sepia Sigil Snake on their spellbook and make it look like some mundane book
* have a false spellbook with Explosive Runes and Sepia Sigil Snake
* craft a Blessed Book as soon as they can to copy their spellbook and store it in a safe place.
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So, how do the majority of real players playing real games handle this issue?
I always kept a copy in a Leomund's Tiny Chest + a backup copy in a secure location. Typically under lock & key at the local mage's guild if available.
The spellbook I actually keep on my person , once I have access to Leomund's, only contains my most frequently used spells.
In some higher level games, I crafted a spellbook as a magic item, enchanted to be difficult to destroy / stored in an extradimensional space / infinite pages / bound to the creator. Required working with the GM and usually at least some questing.
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While I guess it would be unfair to construe the theft of a spellbook as absolute evidence of the GM being jerk, that's often how it can play out. How to put this;...
As a GM I would often opt to have the party captured rather than deal with a TPK.
A naked party chained to the wall in a torture chamber is far more fun than a dead party.
It also gives the monk a chance to truly shine :p
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My Explosive Runes page in my spellbook has Explosive Runes cast on it. If I can't have my spellbook, no one can.
Sundering a warriors sword will be a fair comparison to ruining a wizards spellbook when the wizard can pick up a restaurant menu and memorize spells off of it.
As a DM I consider the spellbook fair game. But moderate precautions, such as those listed by Kenderkin, LazarX, and the inventively paranoid DreamAtelier will be adequate to keep it safe.
As a player I usually try to keep a second copy someplace safe.
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I keep mine safe by letting the Ranger carry it instead of me. Incredibly high Perception check means thieves will be unlikely to lift it off of him. High hit points/attack bonus mean that he's able to put up a solid fight against ruffians that try to take it by force.
Once you're high enough level for it, it's certainly worth the 1000gp to treat your spellbook with instant summons. If it is ever taken, scry the book, wait until it is inevitably set down/stored somewhere, and instantly recall it back to you. :)
You keep it with your clone. No wait, that comes much later..
+1 at high levels, keeping a backup spellbook with your clone is a no-brainer.
Normally I keep my spellbook in my backpack at low levels, in my haversack at mid to higher levels.
Never had it stolen, but have had it taken away when the party gets captured (etc). Definitely sucks, but doesn't happen often. Depending on the campaign style, I'll sometimes make a backup even at mid level (at low levels it's not really an option)
My witch doesn't do anything exceptional to protect her familiar (a dust mephit). He can't really be "stolen", but he can die. He can be raised though.