So—everyone can use javelins right now, and thus I figure we should split the quivers up easily. If we remove the spear heads, we can carry them in the bag (and give it to the massively-strong Tavros).
For damage purposes, Lucina might want the heavy mace, or might not; we should carry it anyway, because it could be a useful took for breaking things. I'll add the items to inventory spreadsheet, and people can move them around if they like.
The idea behind Lucina is ideally buff while they make their way to us then she becomes damage, judging by the goats seeming to be hd3 or so sleep will likely be useless a lot faster than i though but i'd still like to keep it as its one of the few things i could find fitting the sleep/dream theme
Did my sleep catch the runner?
Sleep isn't so useless at high Mythic Tier... the augmented version basically lets you take out an entire village. (Deep Slumber also gets kinda cool)
If you cheese dip into witch, you can also get powerful sleep hexes
Might a Sense Motive check help us out here in any way?
+12 skills get.
+14 HP get.
+1 to All Saves Get.
+2 Rounds of Performance per day get.
Versatile Perform get.
+1 Bard Spell/day, 1 cantrip, 1 known.
Bond Senses Get
+1 Summoner Spell/day, 1 cantrip, 1 known.
Divine Grace Get (+6 to all saves)
Lay on Hands Get (1d6 healing, 7/day)
Skill Focus (Perform: Wind) Get (Weapon)
Selective Channeling Get (Second)
Craft (Painting), Disguise, K(Planes, Religion), Linguistics, Perception, Perform (Dance, Wind), Sense Motive, Spellcraft x2, Stealth.
Bard Spells: Summon Instrument, Comprehend Languages
Summoner Spells: Open/Close (teh lazy), Comprehend Languages
Need to kill my single dead rank in diplomacy.
I will probably level up and stuff over the weekend. Although I agree that camping on the other side of the river might be nice (although maybe there's another goat tribe there? I'm thinking West Side Story dance off? :-D )
Since CaveToad will be gone, it also seems like an awesome time to talk about tactics/leveling up/whatever.
@Group: How do people feel about PoW stuff? I mean, I know it's OP, as Teniel loudly proclaims. But I'm wondering if people were planning on using it/generally avoiding it/what. I'm not super familiar with it, but I was thinking about reading through some stuff over the weekend. But if people wanted to keep things more core or whatever, I think I'd rather not waste my time (although yes, I realize I could do PoW stuff even if nobody else does).
@CaveToad: Feedback- It would be nice if in the future, large blocks of text had a line break between them (I'm looking mostly at the bullet point list you posted earlier). But nbd. :-)
Also, I feel pretty happy with this table.
And now I'm off to my IRL game.
I am neutral. If our table is using it (we might choose not to!), I may dip ninja down the line, rather than Kitsune Rogue; Since a lot of my charisma skills will be covered by perform, the bonuses won't do anything neat for me.
Ninja = Ki Pool based on Charisma, some nifty tricks, and that neat* 'ignore difficult terrain' feat.
*Completely broken in every way shape and form.
Sleep mythic is pretty cool yea and i looked at witch but i just hate familiars or pets and didn't see any way to get rid of them I plan to grab deep slumber when i can as well as pretty much anything else i can find on the ogc with dream or sleep in the name
I've never even seen PoW stuff so i wasn't really considering it might use it as a panic button with my brawler feat thing but other than that no real plans to use it atm maybe later if i find something i like, does it have anything related to dreams/sleep?
Proposed Changes to my level 1 build:
Drop Skill Point in Diplomacy, move it to Craft (Alchemy) (for paint making!)
Drop Enlarged Nomming Device (1 RP)
Drop Agile (1 RP)
Pick up Darkvision (60 ft) (2 RP), which helps out the team to be more like-minded.
What would be neat for Lucina is if she could take a Figment Familiar as a Witch. It's perfectly fitting. But... Witches can't have Figment Familiars, as Figments are an extension of self, and Patrons have to grant the familiar. Which is hilarious, because where better to get her familiar than from the dream world..?
I don't know DSP, and I don't have much interest in it. I'm going to take the minimum levels in whatever psionics class I pick then go full levels in something cool. I'm heavily leaning toward Kensai Magus.
I don't mind people taking PoW stuff, I just prefer when it's used to do things thematically that aren't available without (that running on water feat, for instance, is pretty broken, but with the other dancing feat from that book which isn't nearly as strong it forms a cool thematic style). Also, difficult terrain is actually pretty easy to get around; I don't really care how we all do it.
There are other ways to get Slumber—Hexcrafter Magus, for instance (which is actually an awesome option if Cavetoad says Arcane Strike Spell Combat can stack with your flurry, but sadly takes until level 12 with how cheese dip works. Don't know if there's an easier/quicker way to get hexes.
Proposed changes to my level 1 build: Prophetic Whispers replaced with Misfortune (holy cow the low AC, though—but I can wear medium armor without *too much* issue until level 3 if we find any)
*Also, anyone I hit with a melee attack from now on is shaken for a minimum of 8 rounds...
Level 2:
+12 skills (2 Acrobatics, 1 Perception, 1 Stealth, 2 Perform comedy, 2 Handle Animal, 1 Ride, 2 Spellcraft, 1 Knowledge nature from studying the trees around us and whatnot)
+12 HP (1 con, 1 favored)
+1 Saves
(man, our characters are all still somewhat similar at this point)
+2 Perform/day, +2 Bloodrage/day
Versatile Perform (comedy)
Spells learned:
Spark, Color Spray (Bard), +1 Lv1/day
Purify Food and Drink, Ill Omen, ? (Oracle), +1 Lv1/day
Feat: Intimidating Prowess
Weapon Feat: Enforcer
* * *
Interestingly, my rank in Intimidate can't be retrained since it's a feat pre-req... and since I'm going for Signature Skill (Intimidate), I'll need to dump more ranks into it...
The idea behind Lucina is ideally buff while they make their way to us then she becomes damage, judging by the goats seeming to be hd3 or so sleep will likely be useless a lot faster than i though but i'd still like to keep it as its one of the few things i could find fitting the sleep/dream theme
Did my sleep catch the runner?
yes it was just a little regular goat. He actually didn't wander too far.
I kinda feel bad for the little goat. :(
Sleep mythic is pretty cool yea and i looked at witch but i just hate familiars or pets and didn't see any way to get rid of them I plan to grab deep slumber when i can as well as pretty much anything else i can find on the ogc with dream or sleep in the name
I've never even seen PoW stuff so i wasn't really considering it might use it as a panic button with my brawler feat thing but other than that no real plans to use it atm maybe later if i find something i like, does it have anything related to dreams/sleep?
I think there is a Sleeping Goddess discipline and stance stuff.
I don't know DSP, and I don't have much interest in it. I'm going to take the minimum levels in whatever psionics class I pick then go full levels in something cool. I'm heavily leaning toward Kensai Magus.
Many of the regular classes have a psionic archetype, so you wouldnt even have to take a dedicated psionic class.
Sleeping Goddess is a PoW/Psionic hybrid...
Which reminds me: Twin Mind has you covered! Psionic Slumber scales its affected HD with your level (and at level 12, the HD limit is removed); Mindhunter lets you track people through their dreams, and Dream Travel lets you teleport through the plane of dreams.
...and now I've seen the mechanically devastating Dread class (with the thematic Shadow Hunter archetime), I'm not sure if I still want to go Raging Wilder. Although it's a little dark, I could take the friendlier powers, like swift-action teleportation between any shaken enemies. Hmm.
Hmmm... That Wizard archetype doesn't look too bad... I mean, Mlinzi doesn't really need levels in Wizard, but more spells never hurt anyone...
Where are you finding the Dreamscarred Archetypes (or do you own the books)? I don't seem to see them on the SRD.
Let's hope the Goatlings eat fish...
Okay, so Level 2 is turning out to be a BIG upgrade for Mlinzi! I'm picking up the Lesser Beast Totem rage power, which gives him two primary natural attacks! I think that should stack with Flurry, effectively allowing him to trip two enemies and then make claw attacks against them while he's raging. I'll have to look at how natural attacks work to be sure of the mechanics. For example, I think I should be able to Flurry, doing two unarmed strikes at -2, then attack with both claws at +0. Is that right? EDIT: Err... wait, no. I think all the attacks should be at -2.
Since I'll also be picking up Ki Throw, that means that I can trip two enemies per round and move them to wherever I want within my reach. I could throw one out into range of my hammer, and then the other closer in so I can claw him to pieces.
I'm also excited about level 6, when I'll be getting +1 natural armor when raging, making me even tankier than I already am and making Rage less of a risk. By level 10, I'll have Pounce and will have the same AC while raging as normal. I should also have Crusader's Flurry with my hammer by then, so I'll be flurrying with a combination of a high-damage reach weapon, two claw attacks, and unarmed strikes, throwing in trips whenever I feel like it. I'll still probably be the defensive tank, but seriously, this is SO fun!
You cannot mix flurries with natural attacks. Feral Combat Training lets you substitute in natural attacks for unarmed strikes, using your unarmed strike damage, and also you can apply effects from feats for unarmed attacks to natural attacks, but since taking a flurry is its own full round action it excludes anything else.
Oh right, I just realized that. So basically, it does nothing for me then, other than add some flavor. Oh well, at least I now have the option of doing an equivalent to flurry for damage, but at +0 instead of -2, and I've got slashing damage whenever I need it. Lesser Beast Totem is the price you've gotta pay for the rest of those juicy rage powers.
EDIT: LOL! I just realized that if I wanted to maximize climbing for some dumb reason, I totally could! Using Raging Climber and Bestial Climber, I'd have Barbarian level to Climb checks and be able to move at my full land speed while climbing! I can't think of a situation where being able to climb with the terrifying speed of a Monkbarian while raging would be terribly useful, but I'd be so Tarzan!
I can think of several times when a massive climb speed is nice. Put it to work for you.
Is the natural armor from barbarian an enhancement bonus to natural armor? If not, it may not stack.
Meanwhile, I think Sensation is being renamed Synaesthesia. At level three I'll be sporting a +20 to wind instruments while using it. Pretty sure that's effectively going to paint pictures with all the colors of the wind (and then some). :p. Add in Gregarious, and if I shout something like 'Hello goat people!' before I start my performance, I'll have a minimum of 23 if I roll, and get a 32 if I take 10. Not bad, IMO.
The natural armor bonus from Beast Totem increases by 1 for every 4 levels of Barbarian. Now that I read it again, I'll actually have full AC during rage at Level 6, which is even better, since I'll have just picked up Rage Cycling one level before.
-sigh- I can't believe I still feel feat starved! I'm getting extra feats right and left, and I still want MORE! I'd love to take Improved Initiative and Extra Rage at some point, though I'm not sure where in my progression I'll have room to fit it!
I'm sure it's already been answered, but how does someone else picking up our weapon work?
Eh, you can climb well enough already. I'm picking up Animal Totem when I hit Dual Mind 5, then using Extra Rage Power to get pounce by 10 just like every other Barbarian in all the campaigns.
Also, my AC is now going down to 14, or 12 when I rage. Heh heh heh this will totally not end badly.
-sigh- Teniel, you really need to work on that AC.
Anyway, I don't think I have enough feats to do everything I'd wanted, at least not as early as I'd wanted. Here's my advancement plan so far:
Level 3: Dragon Style
Level 4: Felling Smash (Special Item Feat), Mobility
Level 5: Monkey Style
Level 6: Combat Style Master, Beast Totem Rage Power, Improved Disarm (Monk Bonus Feat), Greater Trip (Special Item Feat)
Level 7: Dragon Ferocity
Level 8: Elemental Fist, Disruptive (Special Item Feat)
Level 9: Crusader's Flurry
Level 10: Spring Attack (Monk Bonus Feat), Whirlwind Attack, Spellbreaker (Special Item Feat), Greater Beast Totem Rage Power
Level 11: Pin Down
Level 14: Improved Ki Throw (Monk Bonus Feat)
I'm getting Power Attack, Dodge, and Ki Throw at level 2. Now, I'm not unhappy with what I've got worked out so far, but I have pretty much no room for any extra feats anywhere until level 11. I definitely see no need for getting my climbing to be any better than it already is. I'll probably pick up Monkey Moves at some point, just because it would let me do some pretty cool treetop combat stuff, but I don't have room for it with all the other stuff I'll be wanting to do. I can't even afford Weapon Focus for my Unarmed Strikes! I may end up cheese dipping Fighter for the extra feats (and the other great benefits of Fighter), since I can't afford much else.
Still, if you look at the build I've got, it's pretty impressive. Level 10 is when Mlinzi will become a holy terror on the battlefield. He'll be able to charge through allies and across difficult terrain to pounce enemies with a Whirlwind attack to trip them all. When they get tripped, they'll provoke attacks of opportunity, allowing me to leave enemies prone and damaged all in one hit.
Hmm... Spellbreaker doesn't do much once you hit mythic (since there are mythic ways to auto-succeed at concentration checks), and Felling Smash has the danger of getting useless once you have better things to do with swift attacks... but I'm not sure whether feat retraining is in this game, and if so, it's definitely a useful low-level option.
Also, there's an early mythic ability that lets you charge through an unlimited number of allies AND enemies.
Feat retraining is definitely possible, and I know we won't be getting Mythic for awhile yet. Obviously Disruptive and Spellbreaker are things I'm saving till fairly late - around the time we'll be going Mythic, so I may not end up taking them if a better way of taking out mages becomes available. I should also be picking up Superstition as a Rage Power fairly early (haven't yet worked out when, but looking at it now, probably Level 4), at which point I'll be less vulnerable to Mages. I'm not used to the changes Mythic makes, nor am I sure how often we'll be facing Mythic enemies, so I've been working on this plan without reference to Mythic.
I'm currently working on updating my character and quickly discovering that I have no idea what I want to do, haha. I think I might just dump skill points into semi-random knowledges with the assumption that if I can't use them yet, I just won't roll.
Also trying to figure out if I should get powerful sneak (because clearly I need to do more damage) or the rogue talent that will let me stand up without an AoO, given the last battle.
I guess it's now time to wade through feats to try to figure out what I want there.
PS- Totally open to suggestions on this. :-)
For me... I more have a very large wishlist that I'd like to get to over time. I don't expect to get there, really. I've got a ton of stuff I want, that I'll have to shove in as time goes by.
Also, I've been trying to clean up our information and make it look a little better, be more eye pleasing and that sort of stuff. In addition to reformatting a -little-.
Edit: It's really really hard for me to follow your character sheet. Are you unchained or not? Do you have any archetypes?
Yup. I imagine I will also clean it my sheet as well. I'm Unchained Monk/Unchained Rogue (Scout)/Magus (Kensai)
Alright, well... my suggestion for rogue talent:
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, a rogue with this ability always considers opponents flat-footed, even if they have already acted. A rogue with this ability adds 1/2 her rogue level to her sneak attack damage rolls made during the surprise round.
Because as long as you can act in the surprise round, this lets you use your considerable number of attacks of opportunity as -sneak attacks-. If you can get a way to always act in the surprise round... even better.
For monk's bonus feat: It's really hard to go wrong. Especially when you already have so many.
For magus: You know magus better than I do.
Skills and Feats: I honestly have no idea. This is something I tend to use very heavily to show who my character actually is beyond their powers... so who is Tavros? Level 2, to me, is basically an extension of who they've been their whole life. I tend not to be able to fit in who someone is with their level 1 build (maybe I'm a mary sue? :()
I am refusing to go Grappling with Mlinzi. I know he'd probably be good at it, but between being feat starved already and not understanding the grappling rules, it's just not something I have any interest in. So if Tavros wants to go that route (and he'd be AWESOME at it), that might be a suggestion for those Monk bonus feats.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the early ones, and then the later ones are pretty good... but you get them late. So... yeah, I miss the MoMS bonus feat list because it's ten thousand percent better than vanilla monk.
@Makoto: Hmmm, maybe. But I just have ~so many~ skills. And the knowledges are just kind of awkward right now. :/
@Mlinzi, are you focusing on tripping? If so, I'm thinking maybe this would be a good feat to pick up for me. Hmm, although now that I look at it, the "adjacent" part may be annoying. As for the grappling, I'm not sure that fits with the charging build I'm going for.
Vicious Stomp is really good with Ki Throw, since you can always choose *where* the enemy falls prone, but is otherwise kind of meh.
Tavros: you may want to consider eventually cheese dipping Brawler/Lore Warden for feats and maneuver bonuses (or not—brawler especially might not be worth it with only a few levels). A good contender though, especially if you take a fighter dip for free unchained stamina, is the Snapping Turtle Style feats. With Combat Style Master, you can defend in Turtle and flip to attack in Brawler without penalty; Unchained raises the shield bonus of the first feat to +2, and Snapping Turtle Clutch is just generally neat, especially if you wind up with a small amount of grappling feats from being a monk.
@Lucina and Tavros: You may both be interested in Sap Adept (Lucina especially). Since you have unarmed (and thus bludgeoning) sneak attacks, you can deal nonlethal without the penalty, and that bumps sneak attack damage up by 2 now, 4 at level 3, and 6 at level 5, when you can take Sap Master to up damage even more (Tavros benefits little from Sap Adept but could get the same mileage out of Sap Master if he's interested in attacking multiple flanked targets over pummeling style for a round).
Also, at level, 4, Teniel will be able to use summons to flank several enemies constantly in all battles, so at that point sneak-attacking should be nearly always possible.
How big of changes are we allowed to make? I'm considering changing brawling into unchanged monk and switching my con and wis around
I am thinking about trading out Crushing Blow for Vicious Stomp, since it would give me two AoO's against any opponent who falls prone adjacent to me once I pick up Greater Trip. Tavros, I'm definitely going for a tripping build, so things that would let you take advantage of that might be smart to take. The "adjacent" thing is a bit of a problem, but remember that you've got 50% more adjacent squares than the rest of us, and as Teniel pointed out, I can use Ki Throw to make them fall prone wherever I want. Once I get Greater Trip, I could trip an opponent, make them fall adjacent to you, get an AoO with my smashy hammer, and give you an AoO with your terrifying magic horns.
Sticking with current classes unchained monk just doesnt seem to fit as well also going to lock in my item as noncombat feats because of my insane access to combat feats
Hmm, also monk has alignment restrictions and implies very disciplined training. There all always more good combat feats to take, but spell focuses can be cool too. And there's a lot of different ways to take all our builds at this point, though I suggest power attack for everyone, and anything that lets you take advantage of enemies suffering from fear is cool, since I now auto-fear literally anything with a brain.
I'll be knocking enemies prone A LOT, which I guess means it's good we don't have much in the way of ranged fighters. Anyway, anything we can get to take advantage of our two reach characters would be smart. I wish I had room for some item creation feats. I hate to be neglecting my Sorc side so much...
Just bear in mind, Teniel: If someone is within 10 feet of Maks (friend or foe), they gain a +2 v. Demoralize attempts (so... dazzling display and its ilk). I'm not sure how exactly that translates into the things you do, though. I just picked the 'I have an innately calming aura', as it seemed to fit really well. :)
Oh, and also: Will my Gregarious Trait (reroll diplomacy 1/day) have any effect if I'm using perform, or should I swap that out, too?
I do think the amount of reach and prone we have will work well with our sneak attacks, but we'll see. Mlinzi: just cheese dip Lore Warden, then Twin Mind Psychic Warrior/Pack Leader Ranger... by level 8, you'll have tons of swift-action wis-based psionic casting, as well as 8 more bonus combat feats.
As for crafting feats... I support the "everyone gets a single one" idea. I could potentially take Craft Wondrous first (and potentially retrain it later), since most of the feats I want won't be useful until level 3... but I don't get any bonus feats from my classes, so that is a bit tricky. We'll definitely want Craft Wondrous, Craft Rod, and potentially Forge Ring, Arms and Armor, and Craft Staff—which comes out to five.
@Makoto: Good to know. That'll make it a bit harder to Frighten/Panic people based on positioning... but Teniel currently gets +18 to demoralize, which is usually going to be an auto-success even with that penalty. I didn't have the feats for the Dazzling-on-every-critical chain, so instead I'm going with Enforcer + Undead Bloodline, which means 1 round of shaken if I *fail* my demoralize check against an enemy I charge, and at least 9 rounds if I succeed, regardless of my success margin. Since Teniel wants to fight by giving his enemies reason to surrender, I'm enjoying the automatic self-doubt that combat now gives said enemies.
Well, I don't know enough about Staffs and Rods and how they work to know if they'd be a good idea. My hope was for Mlinzi to take Craft Wondrous and then Cooperative Crafting and just help everybody out by providing spells and such, but that's two very precious feat slots.
Then again, if I cheese dip Brawler and take the Mystery of Untwisting Iron Winding Path Renegade, I'd have an excellent excuse for taking Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Also, why Lore Warden? That archetype does literally nothing as a cheese dip, because you don't get skill ranks or class skills from cheese dips if I remember correctly. Vanilla fighter is as good or better.
You get abilities, I assume, which makes +2 skill points for each level. Also, I'm pretty sure getting the class skills is part of the point of cheese dipping.
Lore Warden is the canonical best fighter dip. You get 2 free skill points per level. You get Combat Expertise for free (and thus, three bonus feats in two levels instead of just two, once you retrain any existing Expertise you might have taken). You replace the useless (to you) Armor Training with +2 to CMB and CMD at level 3.
Brawler is less-than-ideal for dips because your flexibility level will never be high enough to be useful (move actions when you have five iterative attacks? ugh)—but Untwisting Iron also doesn't get you any of that stuff within the 5 max levels you get as a cheese dip.
The reasons Lore Warden looks rather unimpressive to me:
1) I've already got Combat Expertise, and so taking a dip would require retraining, which I expect is a hassle.
2) The bonuses are nice, but they come really late.
3) Not sure if the skill ranks actually do anything with how this system is set up. Even if they do, I can do a LOT better with either a different archetype or a different class altogether.
I mean, I don't wanna knock Fighter. Fighter's a great class an I love it and I'm seriously considered dipping it. Lore Warden just seems really "meh" to me given the system we're working under.
I haven't looked at the Brawler archetypes for awhile, but I'm pretty sure Untwisting Iron does give you some cool things at early levels. I know it doesn't give you the crafting feats that early, but that's fine. I'm pretty sure it gives bonuses, though. A move action to pick up any feat you qualify for for an entire combat is better action economy than casting a buff spell, so Combat Expertise IS worth it, even at its least impressive levels. Still, it might be a better candidate for Twin Mind than anything else (Still not liking the psionic classes).
At 2nd level, metal weapons and armor in the winding path renegade's possession are treated as masterwork unless they have the broken condition.
This ability replaces bonus feats gained at 2nd level.
And that's all the archetype gives you. Lore Warden is just the standard fighter dip because it gives more feats than anything else you can dip.
I'm probably just personally going to go Lore Warden/Monk for my cheese dips, because I'm addicted to feats, though I might want to make my monk MoMS for actually *useful* feats and that requires an alignment shift by level 8, so we'll see. (Wizard being the backup, because it drops some interesting things)