Mended Wall's PBP for beginners (Inactive)

Game Master Hoary and Wizened

Rules question for my 14th level Sorcerer in my Wed Night tabletop. Help please. I'd especially like your input please Mended!

How do you rule on Prismatic Spray? It says "Every creature in the area is randomly struck by one or more beams, which have additional effects." So if there is only 1 creature is it struck by all 7 rays? Or just one ray rolled randomly, unless you get lucky and roll an 8? And then, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if there are 30 creatures in the area, they could all end up getting the same ray if you rolled the d8 that way? So there's no guarantee of getting a certain ray, such as the poison?

Also ... poisons!?! "Poison (Frequency 1/rd. for 6 rd.; Init. effect death; Sec. effect 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves)* ??? Init. effect death; ??? So if they don't make the first save they die?

This game we are currently fighting a lot of elemental creatures, especially the plane of shadow and shadow elementals. I just got to learn 1 7th lev spell. I'm considering this spell, any suggestions out there?

Oh, wait, I just looked at elementals and realized they are immune to poison which is one of the options of this spell that looked awesome! ... back to the drawing board, but still open to suggestions!

How do you rule on Prismatic Spray? It says "Every creature in the area is randomly struck by one or more beams, which have additional effects." So if there is only 1 creature is it struck by all 7 rays? Or just one ray rolled randomly, unless you get lucky and roll an 8? And then, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if there are 30 creatures in the area, they could all end up getting the same ray if you rolled the d8 that way? So there's no guarantee of getting a certain ray, such as the poison?

Yes.

Also ... poisons!?! "Poison (Frequency 1/rd. for 6 rd.; Init. effect death; Sec. effect 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves)* ??? Init. effect death; ??? So if they don't make the first save they die?

You have it exactly right.

Even if they do not die then they will take con damage if they fail their save.

It is a very powerful spell against creatures that are not resistant or immune to the various effects of the spell. It is not ideal against elementals, but not wholly bad either. Note the first thing it does is blind all creatures with 8HD- with no save.

It is also a most venerable spell. It goes back to the original Advanced Dungeons and Dragons from the 1970's.

As to replacing the spell, as a way of disabling groups of things its likely the best of the level 7 spells. The 2 waves of... spells don't allow saves, but they only do one thing, which won't affect everything either.

Also read your latest dramas Dolok.

As you have observed, I tend to read them. People say soap operas are addictive, I would not know as i don't watch them. But i have your posts instead.

You are lucky to have such parents. And it sounds like your landlord is not wholly bad. Not the most stable maybe, but not wholly bad.

Hmm, could I create kinetic cover out of the ceiling or walls to force them down to our level?

Good thinking. Mended, how high is the doorway? Kinetic cover specifies that it must be supported by the ground, but not how high it is, though it seems to imply that medium creatures don't need to crouch behind it, so it should be at least 10ft, and possibly all the way to the ceiling. Not hard to break through, but it could give us some time to get them grouped up, then we all ready actions to use our various attacks when the cover comes down.

I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with the best way to ask this, and I don't know whether this is the best way or not, but:

Why don't we focus our fire more often?

I ask because it seems to me that the magic missile damage you just put up, Dolok, would have been better spent on one of the slurks that had already taken damage.

As Mended indicated earlier, this fight is a potential TPK, and we'll likely live or die based upon action economy attrition. We started this combat in a really bad spot, and though we all are likely going to make it to the relative safety of the side room with little ill effect, we still have 10 opponents with which to contend. With Illiam and Chillel doling out status effects, it falls to Dolok, Kairon, and Goruck to do the killing (so far as hp are concerned). The sooner an enemy falls, the better. Does that make sense to y'all?
________
And while we're waiting for Mended's ruling on the applications of kinetic cover, it may be a good thing for me to outline my current thinking about how to proceed with this combat.

We don't know whether this is accurate or not, yet, but if a slurk sticks to the wall even in death, then we can gain time against the kobolds if they are forced to maneuver. If a slurk falls in death, then we get some "free damage" against the riders *and* put them in much easier reach of our harder-hitting weapons. That's a win either way.

If Chillel can continue putting kobolds to sleep while we hammer on the active slurks, and Illiam does . . . well, whatever (daze for days?), I think we'll come out of this in good shape.

Mostly, we've got to avoid those slurk snotrockets . . . . If we can't move, we're in worse shape.

I'll point out that while focusing fire is usually the best strategy, it's not necessarily the best thing to do while you're actively trying to get the enemies to bunch up so that you can hit them all with an AoE. (Sorry if I'm over-explaining here, but...) An AoE does the same damage to each creature in the area if effects, regardless of how many creatures there are (unless there's a limit like Sleep's HD limit, which is not the case with our other spells), so the DPR is multiplied by the number of enemies you can target with one of them. Damage beyond the remaining HP of any enemy affected is, of course, wasted, as is the damage that would be applied to any enemy that would have been in the area, but has already been killed. In this case (and probably only in this case), attempting to soften up all enemies equally until (and only until) the AoE(s) can be unleashed can be a sound (though risky!) strategy.

Since the slurks and their riders are sharing squares, all 12 opponents could potentially be in the area affected by Dolok's Burning Hands (allowing it to do a total damage, assuming average rolls and nobody making their saves, of 90 points spread across the group). Illiam can also potentially one-shot them with Color Spray, but again, only if we can force them into a tight enough grouping. Since Color Spray doesn't allow affected creatures to wake up early the way Sleep does, and because a sleeping creature can't make a reflex save, we should actually use Color Spray first. Then, if only one or two make their saves and everyone else is vulnerable to Coup de Grace, Dolok should probably save his spell for later, but if more are awake, Dolok can damage all of them (especially the unconscious) in one round, potentially killing those who have already been hit and likely leaving the others one good hit away from death. Both Color Spray and Burning Hands are only limited on how many characters they can affect by the space they cover, so having more enemies up and in the target zone makes them more effective.

As a separate strategy point, I'll point out that we've seen both slurks and riders go unconscious, and in neither case did anyone fall. This suggests that a dead slurk will stay where it is, but ALSO that the rider will have to do some work to extricate himself from the slurk corpse, meaning he should be immobilized for at least a turn, and could still take damage when he does get himself loose and drops to the floor. While I do wonder how much of a threat a slurk without a conscious rider is (the fact that the one with the sleeping rider hasn't moved suggests a significantly reduced threat), I agree that the slurks should be our primary targets, if only to avoid those snotrockets.

I suspect we don't co-ordinate fire more because it is PbP. It is easier to co-ordinate if you can speak and get answers straight away. We should have concentrated on injured slurks as you say.

My guess is slurks stick in death. They stick when they go to sleep and death is just the big sleep.

Chillel intends to use Aggressive Thundercloud, giving me 3 rounds of damage [hopefully] and the second and third as a move action. And I can try to send Kobolds to sleep, just for a change.

Good points, all.

1) Should we each be more specific in calling for force to be applied, then? I have avoided such in the past because I don't want to risk trampling on others' plans and/or decision-making. I can certainly start adjusting that practice.

2) Unconscious slurks not falling does indeed point to the same for dead ones. I hadn't thought through on that one enough. So the worst-case angle of forcing the riders to spend actions dismounting is still an edge in action economy. Let's make it happen!

3) Getting a good set-up for AoEs is choice, but it does carry a fairly fat stack of "if". I'm smellin' a whole lotta 'if' comin' offa this plan. Once we can gauge their reactions to our next round of actions, maybe we'll notice a key to accomplishing that.

4) Mended's AM posts can't get here fast enough!! Looking forward to the rest of this fight!! :)

Why don't we focus our fire more often?

I ask because it seems to me that the magic missile damage you just put up, Dolok, would have been better spent on one of the slurks that had already taken damage. ...

Everyone is making good points about strategy here.

BUT DOLOK WAS SCARED OF THAT SLURK AND ITS RIDER ONLY 5 FT IN FRONT OF HIM!

I would say that this is a perfectly reasonable way to decide on an action, IF you roleplay that fear.

1) Should we each be more specific in calling for force to be applied, then? I have avoided such in the past because I don't want to risk trampling on others' plans and/or decision-making. I can certainly start adjusting that practice.

I think conveying strategic ideas to other PCs more is a good idea. I am not going to be offended, and knowing what you guys are planning is going to help.

3) Getting a good set-up for AoEs is choice, but it does carry a fairly fat stack of "if". I'm smellin' a whole lotta 'if' comin' offa this plan. Once we can gauge their reactions to our next round of actions, maybe we'll notice a key to accomplishing that.

If we can get inside the room as planned this encounter becomes a lot more survivable. With those in armour in the doorway and the spellcasters casting away behind we have our best shot. And I think Dolok and Goruck get to move before any more slurk mucous gets unleashed, so that is a big plus.

I think the player behind Chillel just failed a will or fort save at the very idea of that and gained the nauseated condition. :(

Wow. Um. I just looked at the map again, and I'm really exposed... Might need some backup...

Wow! You guys are really serious about this... :P

Kinetic cover says: " The face you select must be supported by the ground." The "ground" is above you in this current situation, which means, as far as I'm concerned you can call down some cover from the ceiling. My reading of the RAI there is that you need "the earth" to be part of producing the elemental "wall." Well, the earth is both above and below you because you are underground. Putting the temporary wall of stone at the top of the entrance would shrink the size of the opening to 25', as the opening is now 5' wide and 30' tall. Of course, it would also force the kobolds to either stop and test the strength of the new stone wall, or just attempt to climb around it. Obviously, if they were dumb enough to try and climb over it, both slurk and rider would immediately fall to the ground because the "wall" can only support 5 lbs of weight. So, putting the kinetic cover at the top of the doorway seems like a fantastic idea. Or would anyway, if Illiam hadn't just been stuck fast by a bunch of frog snot... Now I think Goruck will want to go and stand guard over his caster friend, so that he isn't exposed to instantaneous death from above... Poor, poor Illiam, who will come and rescue HIM!!!

Wow. Um. I just looked at the map again, and I'm really exposed... Might need some backup...

And now you are going to stay really exposed. :( Particularly with your 6 str and needing to make a str check to escape. Really sucks.

I think Mended has the right idea with Goruck going to play bodyguard with Kairon, already in position, fighting at the door.

Dolok or Chillel going out and trying to stage a rescue is just going to make things worse by getting them killed. The most help I can be to our unfortunate halfling is to stay put and try to kill or incapacitate the foes.

Whew, forgot about Shift. I was almost going to use arcane bond to cast invisibility so that I could stay there, but they would THINK I had teleported away, then I remembered I actually DID have the ability to teleport!

Whew, forgot about Shift. I was almost going to use arcane bond to cast invisibility so that I could stay there, but they would THINK I had teleported away, then I remembered I actually DID have the ability to teleport!

I totally forgot about Shift as well! Good job. I was worried, seriously, then when I checked your post and saw "shift," I was like... WHEW!!!

I am very glad Illiam's not afftected, as opposed to Illiam's snot affected.

If puns are the lowest form of humor, snot puns must be the lowest of the low.

Btw, for future reference Mended, if Illiam had been hit directly but the snot, the non-anchoring variety that just sticks to him and not to the floor, would you allow him to shift away, excluding the snot and leaving it behind (to fall to the floor where he was standing)? Or for another example, if he had been captured and was in manacles, would you allow him to teleport himself but exclude the manacles, thereby freeing himself? That would be an extremely Illiam thing to do, and would think the existence of dimensional shackles strongly suggests that it should be possible to escape from other types of restraints in this way.

Interesting question Illiam. I went to the "source" of language for Shift, which is really just a watered down version of dimension door. Dimension Door says: "You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels." The key words here, that struck me, are "can" and "may." Which indicates that the teleporter has the ability to mentally select what's coming along. Having that in mind, I'd say, yes, absolutely you could "select out" objects on your person that you do not wish to travel with you. It's magic after all!!! Also, the idea of mentally selecting out things when casting magic is not new to Pathfinder. Selective Channeling is the first instance that comes to my mind. :)

Edit: Also, I wanted to be clear, I think you figured it out, but I never overtly stated it. The reason Illiam was stuck to the floor, was because of the Nat 20 on the ranged touch attack for the snot. If the attack had "just" hit, and not crit, the entanglement would not have prevented movement, but I always reward good dice rolls, even for the enemies. ;) Thank goodness for Shift!!! Or that could have gotten really bad really quickly.

If puns are the lowest form of humor, snot puns must be the lowest of the low.

The campaign generally appears to be in a rather snot-encrusted place at present.

And isn't sarcasm the lowest form of wit?

Even accepting for the moment that puns are the lowest form of humour [actually this is an outrageous error], and snot puns are lowest of the low , this would explain why the snot pun, along with much of the snot, attached to the halfling. Halflings are after all one of the shortest races.

Illiam, I believe you mentioned having an app that notifies you when there is a post in this game? If my memory is correct on that, some of my players in my campaign may be interested. Would you mind sharing a link or something to it please?

Well, there's an android app called wayfinder. It doesn't give you notifications, but it makes it a little easier to check from a phone.

I use a chrome extension called page monitor to notify me of updates while I'm at my computer (which is most of my waking hours). It's a little tricky to configure since the pages here all have sidebar content that is constantly updating, as well as dates in relative format (which means the text isn't static). The trick is to select only the post count on each page you want to monitor, and make sure the page you're monitoring is page=last if you want clicking the notifications to take you to the new stuff.

Thanks Illiam! I'll just copy your post and post it in my game for any who want to give it a try.

I just want to make sure that I have the same reading of Aggressive Thundercloud as everyone else. My reading is that the spell creates a small cloud in the square of the caster's choosing upon completion of the spell, if that square contains living creatures it immediately fires off little bolts of lightning doing 3d6 damage. Illiam, yes, since the slurk and rider share a square it will do the damage to both. The spell says that a reflex save negates the damage. Meaning if the slurk makes the reflex save, it takes no damage.

As for the unconscious kobold in that square. Here's another wonky part of the rules that has always given me pause. There is nothing stated in the unconscious or helpless conditions that says a creature doesn't get to make reflex saves... Common sense would say you can't use your reflexes when you are passed out, and that is how I've always wanted to rule it, but the flip side of that coin is that you, the PCs, would also not be able to make reflex saves when unconscious or helpless, and that could be very dangerous. So, I'd like a consensus from the group before I adjudicate the thundercloud saves. Do unconscious/helpless creatures get to make reflex saves, or not?

Chime in!

My 2 cp:

If one is unable to move, one cannot evade --> auto-fail

Even though that means we're potentially vulnerable.

Agreed. If you can't move, your reflexes don't do you any good.

I also agree.

It is unusual that the save negates the damage, normally saves half damage. I infer the thunder misses entirely anyone who saves.

I would have thought the rules would say an unconscious character does not get a reflex save. But apparently not.

Unconscious characters are helpless, which means there dex is treated as zero. That is all I can find.

Exactly so, Chillel. A Dex of 0 would indicate that no dexterous actions could be taken, nor reactions made, to my mind. Mechanically speaking, could that be justified a non-roll Reflex save with a -5 penalty?? Just spitballing . . . .

I think the RAW is that a reflex save is allowed, but the dex is zero [which isn't the same as a -5 penalty].

But I don't claim to be a Pathfinder rules expert.

I think Mended's proposed no save house rule is more sensible.

Unconscious = Can't choose to move of your own accord = no reflex save. Agreed.

Okay, that's four of the five chiming in saying if a character is unconscious they are not allowed to make a reflex save. This will be the rule going forward. This means, of course, the kobold will take all of Chillel's Aggressive Thundercloud damage (which will wake him up from his unconscious state), but also means that should any PC find themselves in a similar situation in the future, no reflex saves will be allowed. I have some work to do this morning so I won't be able to get to the in-game post for a while. I hope to be able to get to it before noon. If not, I should have time to get to it this afternoon.

Woot!!

Fun-employment!!

Walked out a couple hours ago. Just 2 hours after our general manager, who had been with the company nearly 15 years (January would have been the anniversary). Those guys are in for a world of hurt, now that we're gone.

WOW! About time Syrus! At least from all the horror stories you've told us!

And here I am, from just months ago working part-time, now I'm doing 16 hours of OT this week and am currently signed up for 13 next week, may sign up for more! RL finances are kicking my ass right now! Need all this OT and any other money I can get!

Keep at it, chief!! :)

And, yes, it was long overdue.

Quite the conundrum, both tactically *and* strategically . . . .

Kairon is at 60% HP right now, and no one else in the party has taken damage, right? Hmmmm and hmmmm . . . .

I gotta figure something to do . . . .

EDIT: Ah, yes -- Goruck had taken 2 points of damage. I don't even remember when . . . . Oh. Forge spurned. Right.

Here's a thought:

Mended -- potential applications for about 6 gallons of water being conjured between a slurk's stickysnot and the wall/ceiling?

Or, at the very least, it'll serve to prevent a fire from killing us all . . . .

I could just start saturating the room as a preventive measure . . . . But defense isn't good enough right now . . . .

EDIT: Nevermind -- got the snot mixed up with the grease . . . . Urgh.

I think you could probably block the snot if you readied an action to create water in its path, thereby diluting/splattering it in mid air. Probably not the best use of action economy, but I'd allow it if I were GM. As for using it to force a fall... I think I'd probably allow that too, since biological slimes tend to be water soluble. Prestidigitation's "clean or soil" ability might be able to do it too, but with a range of only 10ft, if Illiam was close enough to try it, they would have to be low enough that they wouldn't take any damage from the fall.

Climb speed alone nixes my errant brainstorm.

If anyone thinks it would make a difference (and that they could survive it), I could cast invisibility on them (using my arcane bond) so that they can get out and ambush the bombardiers as they approach. If we knew for a fact that these "bombardiers" were carrying explosives that could be set off with Burning Hands, I'd say Dolok should go to make sure he can get off a good shot at them (then run back for cover when his attack makes the invisibility end).

I'll also point out that with all of the kobolds on the ceiling, none of them are in AoO range of anywhere we would be. If there's a better tactical position, we could all make a run for it. Not crazy about that idea, since I'm the slowest, just pointing it out. Actually, with Goruck in mithral full plate and Illiam able to get an extra 5ft of movement with Shift, I guess I'm the second slowest...

I realize being unemployed can be... unsettling, if not downright scary, but I know you know Who's got your back. ;-) So, I'll just say, I'm happy for you, because I know that job has been a major source of stress and unhappiness for quite some time. Godspeed your job search for joyful and rewarding employment Syrus!!!

As to the current in game predicament. Many excellent ideas have been offered up. Many of them would work well. The great thing about this game is that there is no "right answer." It's not a binary event. There are almost infinite ways that the current situation could be dealt with. I'm waiting on an action from Kairon before having the other kobolds and their slurks take their actions...

Options:

1) Summon a monster with the wand.

2) Obscuring mist and a rope as we beat feet.

3) Chuck the flammable stuff out of the room as best we can, drench and create water to contend with the rest. We could even try smoking *them* out of the elevator room . . . .

4) We have a crossbow.

5) Grappling hook and a rope to drag slurks off the wall and into spear range.

6) Bless and cantrips and whatever other ranged attacks we can muster to keep whittling away at them.

7) Give Gurtlekrep a weapon (not that I'm recommending it).

Other ideas? 'Cause we need to save our "big gun" spells for the opportune moment . . . .

Man, oh, man, but this is a rough fight.

EDIT: I'll have a post up presently. Weak as water, but maybe it'll be productive.

Options:

1) Summon a monster with the wand.

Excellent idea. And we can do it more than once. Maybe the monsters can go over in the tunnel to slow down reinforcements. What level is that wand?

2) Obscuring mist and a rope as we beat feet.

A last resort maybe.

3) Chuck the flammable stuff out of the room as best we can, drench and create water to contend with the rest. We could even try smoking *them* out of the elevator room . . . .

It is a matter of finding the time to throw stuff out. Whoever is doing that is not fighting.

4) We have a crossbow.

True. who to fire it? Gurtlekrep?

5) Grappling hook and a rope to drag slurks off the wall and into spear range.

Yes but again who.

6

) Bless and cantrips and whatever other ranged attacks we can muster to keep whittling away at them.

Don't forget hexes.

7) Give Gurtlekrep a weapon (not that I'm recommending it).

I think we should at least give him a grappling hook or get him to start tossing flammable stuff out of here.

Other ideas? 'Cause we need to save our "big gun" spells for the opportune moment . . . .

Man, oh, man, but this is a rough fight.

Yes indeed. Good candidate for a TPK.

On big gun spells, I have a Frost Fall left. And-

For those who did not peek, the whispered word, couched in almost comically mild terms for the situation-

"Dolok, it seems to me being incinerated would be rather inconvenient. Perhaps it would be prudent if you preserved some of your characteristic fire spells, I have Burning Hands in mind particularly, for these "Bombardier" ingrates when they appear. If you can set their bombs off before they are thrown and incinerate them rather than us... Sound reasonable?"

I still think that is a good idea.

I did peek, because I figured Illiam was close enough to hear. As I said, I could use invisibility to allow him to get into position to do that earlier. (Honestly though, Illiam kinda wants to save that to allow himself to escape if things go the way they look like they might.)

Alternatively, if the bombardiers are not riding slurks, it may be the time to use Create Pit. Whatever we do, I think we need to spend our time preventing them from setting the room on fire with us in it rather than mitigating the damage when they do.

Eagles get three attacks, and their flight means that slurks being on the ceiling isn't a problem for them. Hopefully the wand is summon monster II, because 1d3 eagles would be better than 1 (or at least it has a 2/3 chance of being better than 1).

How long would it take to go back up the elevator (at least far enough to keep from being attacked)? Dropping an Obscuring Mist and making a break for the elevator might put us in a significantly better tactical position.

Slumber is good, but shouldn't necessarily be a go-to in a spread-out battle like this where we have trouble reaching the enemy. Remember that you can't use it on the same target again for one day. If we can't use that vulnerability to kill them before they wake up, it's not much better than Daze.

Fully agree with all tactics mentioned so far. Sorry, nothing new to add at this time, but just got home from 5.5 hrs of OT after 3 hrs sleep. Let me think/sleep on it and I'll see if I get any more ideas. Though truthfully Illiam has always been our main planner, with good assist from Syrus and Chillel both.

Good points Illiam.

I am aware that this combat isn't the best for Slumber. In fact this shows up it's limitations very well. Especially with slurk riders waking their mounts. Not as good as fighting undead however.

It is still good if used sensibly. A spell can only be used once per day, where a hex can be used once a day per target. It is hard to overstate how good that is. But I am going to try.

Hexes are just overwhelmingly better than spells. I mean Hexes are like, godlike, while spells are insect like. Who needs wish or time stop when you can have Smell Children?

Having established that while it is hard to overstate, it is in fact possible if you are as eloquent as I, I am going to wait a bit for others input and then see if I can set out a course of action.

Who has that wand by the way?

Eagles get three attacks, and their flight means that slurks being on the ceiling isn't a problem for them. Hopefully the wand is summon monster II, because 1d3 eagles would be better than 1 (or at least it has a 2/3 chance of being better than 1).

You are not thinking ambitiously enough. Summon Monster 9 is what we want. 1d3 eagles good. 1d3 Hezrou = game over.

It is a pity we don't have one of my Master Summoner characters in the party. There are some situations they get especially powerful and this is almost perfect. Numerous opponents [as opposed to 1 big bad] and time to crank up. A level 3 master summoner, built by me, would handle this situation alone, with the rest of the party doing no more than keep opponents from getting to them.

And Dolok- get some sleep. Basic human need.

At least daze can hit the same target every 10 rounds . . . . Not that I'm knocking a sleep effect.

The grappling hook would be best thrown by Goruck, of course, and Kairon could shield him with the improvised tower shield we (still?) possess. Hunkering down behind it would grant Kairon total cover, right? And impart our samurai with at least *some* AC benefit . . . . Or he can simply go "full defense" with his own steel shield, to avoid any nonproficiency penalties -- an AC of 21. Just an option.

And, yes, as I recall, it *is* summon monster II. I think some eagles would not go amiss right now. Though I don't know who has it . . . .