Well, when we all die don't blame me :P
Ill get the new map and round up tonight after work. :D
OK if interested and you can see pics on facebook
here is the link to pictures of the cruise vacation (almost 500 pics)
wow that's very very cool. Now Im even more envious lolol
Did you seriously just ask if it is an evil act to kill helpless women, children and craftsmen who have surrendered to you?
By all modern conventions, the answer is a simple yes.
By the mechanics, killing other creatures for your convenience is pretty much straight out of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook from the description of Evil. Below is the entire third paragraph of Good vs Evil on THIS PRD page.
"Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."
This gets into why extreme negative prejudice is, on it's own, normally considered Evil in our modern world.
Well this isn't the modern world....thus the question.
Unfortunately all it takes in the modern world to make killing innocent women and children "not evil" according to most people I've met in North America is a couple weeks of TV news labeling them terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. In any world evil is socially and culturally defined. Aztec human sacrifice? To us evil, to them necessary. The examples are endless. But on Golarion none of that matters, you can cast a spell on someone and determine their alignment. It's an objective thing. Neutral spellcasters can summon evil creatures, thus committing an evil act, and not have their aligment shifted (assuming they're doing it for a "good" reason). Sometimes "good" people do "bad" things. Grommund's not even good, he's true neutral.
Hatred: Dwarves gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes because of their special training against these hated foes.
Grommund wouldn't care if it's evil or not, they aren't people with thoughts and emotions to him, they're goblins. Dirty stinking evil monsters only good for death. He's trained for decades, since he was little, in special ways to kill them. To him slaughtering those "innocent" women and children is preventing them from growing up and attacking Oakhurst when he's too old to come back and finish the job. What I'm asking is if it would shift his alignment.
So, the book reference to killing others for your convenience doesn't strike you as being EXACTLY what you're asking?
Or are you going to say that you are asking if attempted genocide is evil, in a world were individual creatures can provable hold different philosophies (alignments) than the majority of their race?
The potential redemption of Evil is one of the oldest story threads in existence. You'll have a hard time justifying that it is irrelevant ot the question of attempted genocide.
I as a player know it's "evil", I'm saying does it matter? Grommund doesn't care, he doesn't think it's evil. As a DM, I wouldn't care if a PC did that if that's what their PC believes. There might be consequences because of it. One of them possibly being an alignment shift depending on the PC's current alignment.
A neutral player? Meh, go for it.
Even if we don't kill them, what's an acceptable solution for a bunch of goblins? What if we cast detect evil on all of them first and they are all evil? Would it still be wrong to kill them? They had to do something to get that alignment. How do you know know all those mothers aren't abusing their children and murdering each other when we're not around? Maybe they've all got it coming.
This debate has been going on for as long as there has been alignment and there is no correct answer. I'm not looking to continue the never ending debate here, I'm looking for a short simple yes or no from the DM for this particular game in this particular incarnation of Golarion.
I had a campaign I was running end suddenly when I stripped a Paladin of his Paladinhood for slaughtering unarmed children fleeing a warren that the party was smoking out.
As Larry's next level is SUPPOSED to be Paladin, there will HAVE to be an IC argument if you decide to start the slaughter. Children can be taught different behaviors.
Remember, "me and mine first" is actually NEUTRAL on the good/evil axis.
Hurting others for convenience or pleasure is Evil.
Taking risks to help others is Good.
Those 3 points are pretty directly out of the system alignment definitions.
Well in Grommund's mind, it's both putting he and his first, and the goblins don't count as others any more than cows or rocks do. Good ol' ignorant racism. (-_-;)
Larry ran off downstairs and has no idea what's going on up there. So it might be more like vomiting and wanting to punch Grommund when he comes back upstairs to find everything covered in goblin bits. To which Grommund would stare in disbelief and say somethin' like "Yer sidin' with a bunch o' damn gobboes? They aint people man! They're monsters!"
But yeah, lets see what DM says. I think characters with serious flaws and interparty conflict make things more interesting, but some DMs like to keep everything harmonious.
PS:If the paladin was in my game I would have done the same thing.
If I had to make the decision Id Let Grommund follow his conscience If he killed them I wouldnt have him shift alignment for one action, as I see that as something that would gradually change, not immediately for one action. However, there would be repercussions...in game.
Id let the interparty conflict build to the point of it breaking things down.
Id have the word get out. Someone in a bar sometime has loose lips and lets it slip. From then all folks in the town look at him odd and some shun him while others praise him. NPC Good Clerics refuse to help him.
etc...
notice is herby given that Klor in his current state of ineffectiveness (at 0 hp) I will be going away for the weekend. leaving early Friday morning and returning sometime Sunday evening.
will most likely be unable to post.
have fun. Ill have him jump up swinging and put himself out ;) ...kidding
Can we use him as cover? :)
Hey.
My mom just asked me to come visit this weekend. I make no promises about how much I will or will not post while there. They re well connected to the internet, and have plenty of resources for me to use through said connection, BUT . . ..
The point is to spend time with family, not closed in a room by myself.
I'm 48. The people I am told are there already are both of my parents, both of my dad's older brothers, and my dad's mom. This could well be the last time all of her boys are together with her. She isn't really ill. She's "just" over 90 years old . . ..
I won't leave until tomorrow morning, so I will be as active until then as normal. Not that you guys have seen how often I'm checking in or have any clue about that right now, honestly. The guy unconscious on the floor has been being quiet. Imagine that.
On that note, since combat has lightened up and I don't have to do turns for 20 guys, I plan on picking the pace back up. I should be able to get back to a round a day now. :D
now that Tae can get to Larry without being aoo'd, you will likely be healed shortly, Larry.
Hey, PLEASE do NOT mistake any aspect of my above comment as a complaint!
Characters fall down. It is part of the game. It serves as a reminder that failure REALLY IS an option, which is important if we're supposed to get a feeling of satisfaction out of winning.
I know that the group will get Larry back up and involved when they have a reasonable chance to do so. ESPECIALLY since he's stable, I don't expect any heroics just because players think I might be feeling left out. I've been playing these games too long to feel left out just because the character's down.
oh no worries Larry, I didnt think it in the least. I was more remarking because I dislike going 3 days or more between turns in combat. I like to try and do the post a day thing...but that combat got way big ;) and I couldnt manage the hour hour and a half it took to do a turn every night lol
and Im organized ....sheesh Id hate to see a disorganized DM do it. ;)
by the way
its a good time to talk about leveling since Im sure you are all aware that combat will put you over 2nd level.
Grommund, Klor, Ekan and Tae have to stay in the current class for this level. At Third they can multiclass if they wish.
Zarrick- Can multiclass now into Cleric. However if he stays Adept for this level he will Gain 400 Gold in Potions/Scrolls from the DM at 2nd
Larry Can Multiclass now into Paladin. However if he stays in Commoner he gains Double the Favored Class bonus' at 2nd and another Hero Point. (Im sure you realized He has 1 Hero Point currently....if not you do now)
To Level up you need to here from me to do so, and have 1 nights sleep. to digest what youve learned. So it wont be like an MMO where suddenly you go up a level...but after rest you will (and that ties into knowing new spells when you awake and pray/study them)
When I read the stuff about using the NPC classes, I wasn't sure if the Hero Point was part of the Toughness Feat choice or a distinct Feat choice or in addition to the Feat choice. I had defaulted to assuming it was a Feat choice. Now I know better.
Literally, Larry won't get much for remaining a Commoner. I've got him built so that he could get away with it, probably, but he really doesn't get much. As per your class list for Favored Bonuses, Commoner does NOT get a Favored Class Bonus for planned Paladins. So, double the nuthin', carry the nuthin, gives ya nuthin'. (Think Jayne Cobb.) Again, not a complaint (the Firefly reference was an attempt to keep the mood light), just a reminder of the rules I CHOSE to work within.
Level 2: +1 BAB, +2 Skill Points, +1 Hero Point, +8 HP
Level 3: +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will, +2 Skill Points, +1 Hero Point, +8 HP. +1 Level Feat
netting total at 3rd level:
+1 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will, 7 Skill Points (including the free Profession), 3 Hero Points, 27 HP, 4 Feats, proficient with 1 simple weapon
versus
+2 BAB, +3 Fort, +3 Will, 7 Skill Points (including the free Profession), 1 Hero Point, 27 HP, 4 Feats, proficient with all Simple & martial Weapons, proficient with all armors and most shields, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and my choice of either 2 more HP, 2 more skill points, or splitting them.
My inner munchkin balks at the idea of staying Commoner for the full 3 levels.
I could still justify waiting as part of the story. Looking for something to kick in and signal it is time for him to become a Paladin. Among other things, though, I don't know that the story will provide that call!
Color me indecisive. What else is new?
No, I'm not trying to complain.
No, I'm not fishing for what the promised bonus might be.
Yes, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, because I'm being indecisive.
oh no worries Larry, I didnt think it in the least. I was more remarking because I dislike going 3 days or more between turns in combat. I like to try and do the post a day thing...but that combat got way big ;) and I couldnt manage the hour hour and a half it took to do a turn every night lol
and Im organized ....sheesh Id hate to see a disorganized DM do it. ;)
by the way
its a good time to talk about leveling since Im sure you are all aware that combat will put you over 2nd level.
Grommund, Klor, Ekan and Tae have to stay in the current class for this level. At Third they can multiclass if they wish.
Zarrick- Can multiclass now into Cleric. However if he stays Adept for this level he will Gain 400 Gold in Potions/Scrolls from the DM at 2nd
Larry Can Multiclass now into Paladin. However if he stays in Commoner he gains Double the Favored Class bonus' at 2nd and another Hero Point. (Im sure you realized He has 1 Hero Point currently....if not you do now)
To Level up you need to here from me to do so, and have 1 nights sleep. to digest what youve learned. So it wont be like an MMO where suddenly you go up a level...but after rest you will (and that ties into knowing new spells when you awake and pray/study them)
I recently started a Witchwar Legacy game on here. The players are 12th level gestalt synthesist summoners. They just attacked a camp of 14 frost giants, 10 ogres, 6 winter wolves, 9 mammoths and a dozen wooly rhinos. Talk about long ass updates. Wrote one yesterday and I think it took me three hours x_x* That's with software keeping track of the map and all the numbers!
Anyway, I feel your pain.
When I read the stuff about using the NPC classes, I wasn't sure if the Hero Point was part of the Toughness Feat choice or a distinct Feat choice or in addition to the Feat choice. I had defaulted to assuming it was a Feat choice. Now I know better.
Literally, Larry won't get much for remaining a Commoner. I've got him built so that he could get away with it, probably, but he really doesn't get much. As per your class list for Favored Bonuses, Commoner does NOT get a Favored Class Bonus for planned Paladins. So, double the nuthin', carry the nuthin, gives ya nuthin'. (Think Jayne Cobb.) Again, not a complaint (the Firefly reference was an attempt to keep the mood light), just a reminder of the rules I CHOSE to work within.
Level 2: +1 BAB, +2 Skill Points, +1 Hero Point, +8 HP
Level 3: +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will, +2 Skill Points, +1 Hero Point, +8 HP. +1 Level Featnetting total at 3rd level:
+1 BAB, +1 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will, 7 Skill Points (including the free Profession), 3 Hero Points, 27 HP, 4 Feats, proficient with 1 simple weapon
versus
+2 BAB, +3 Fort, +3 Will, 7 Skill Points (including the free Profession), 1 Hero Point, 27 HP, 4 Feats, proficient with all Simple & martial Weapons, proficient with all armors and most shields, Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and my choice of either 2 more HP, 2 more skill points, or splitting them.
My inner munchkin balks at the idea of staying Commoner for the full 3 levels.
I could still justify waiting as part of the story. Looking for something to kick in and signal it is time for him to become a Paladin. Among other things, though, I don't know that the story will provide that call!
Color me indecisive. What else is new?
No, I'm not trying to complain.
No, I'm not fishing for what the promised bonus might be.
Yes, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do, because I'm being indecisive.
Dude. Commoners are lame.
While laying there unconscious you just had a near death experience in which a Deity called you to service based on the good and self-sacrifice in your heart.
lmao. commoners aren't lame... they are the backbone of any society... don't let the nobles hear me say that though. They all think they are the be all and end all, of course.
That may be true, but I'd much rather go adventuring with a Paladin than Larry the farmer. Larry the farmer is a liability. Larry the Paladin is a greenhorn with potential.
I have to agree with you there... commoners may be the backbone of society - but that is where they belong - in their proper place in society - being commoners: farming, perhaps following a trade, or performing some skill, having babies, that sort of thing. We'd much rather adventure with Larry the paladin than Larry the commoner. Nothing personal, Larry...
Well, remember, the schtick I applied with was that Larry is not going to believe he's a Paladin. Yes he gets called in a dream and the class powers begin to work for him after that, but he won't think "Smite Evil", he'll think something more like "Somebody needs to stop this evil, evil man!"
So, you'll get Larry the Farmer regardless of the Class Features in play.
It is just more fun that way.
works for me! :) I've seen class 'powers' and features played that way in the past, and it's always a cool character quirk.
For me, the fluff is irrelevant. Whatever's more fun for you. That paladin crunch is what I'd prefer :)
Grommund, Klor, Ekan and Tae have to stay in the current class for this level. At Third they can multiclass if they wish.
Oh, Ekan definitely plans to stay a wizard. It's his path to supreme arcane power!!!
he'll settle for okay arcane power and respect ;)Regardless, as his power grows no doubt so too will his confidence. He's a bit on the timid side right now
I was planning on staying in this class until at least 3rd level, then taking a couple of levels of hedgewitch before coming back to oracle... not sure if that is a path I will still follow or not... I have much to think about until that time, but definitely remaining an oracle for the first 3 levels.
Grommund- eeeek that combat makes mine seem like a minor league ;) holy yikes batman.
Larry- by all means go Paladin. I just wanted to make sure everyone was clear with what things meant to them.
I'm found Adept2. Can't pass up the potions, considering our fortune thus far. I will try to update later tonight.
remember don't change stats til you guys 'bed down for the night'
Treasure to be divided-
The Hucrele Family Signet Ring's, The Daughters, (return)
Masterwork Composite Long Bow +2 strength damage
silver Holy Symbol to Norgorber ??
2 vials of a clear liquid (Alchemical Item)
a scroll wrapped in black silk (Arcane)
potion vial that has a brownish liquid that is thick and oily
600 silver
96 gold.
6 Onyx Gemstones with 30 Gold each
2 statuettes of dwarven soldiers worth 30 Gold each
3 silver rings worth 30 Gold each
5 rather nicely shaped Moonstone worth 30 gold
Someone remind me how we were doing loot in this game? Grommund's only really interested in his share of the liquid assets.
I would like the holy symbol to return to the temple for proper disposal
Grommund was going to suggest melting it down and making coins from it. But he's not that kind of smith.
I was thinking the church can melt it down and it can be given as a tithe
I can't speak to what anyone else will want or can use.
Larry could use the chain shirt upgrade for sure.
He is easily capable of handling the pull on that bow, but I am NOT convinced that he's the best character to take it. His Dex just isn't that good.
Also need to watch for better weapon choices (two-handed for crunch or more sword and board style for defense) than the spears Larry's been using. Not that he needs his weapons to be on the weapon chart. <eg>
I had his gear specced to minimize the damage/maximize the advantage of his Commoner level. No Armor Check Penalty to be applied against his attacks. A versatile two-handed simple weapon to fill as many holes as possible during combat.
I am pretty low stress when it comes to passing things out, though.
The Hucrele Family Signet Ring's, The Daughters, (return)
Masterwork Composite Long Bow +2 strength damage
silver Holy Symbol to Norgorber ??
2 vials of a clear liquid (Alchemical Item)
a scroll wrapped in black silk (Arcane)
potion vial that has a brownish liquid that is thick and oily
600 silver (thats 100 each)
96 gold. (thats 16 each)
6 Onyx Gemstones with 30 Gold each (thats 1 each)
2 statuettes of dwarven soldiers worth 30 Gold each
3 silver rings worth 30 Gold each
5 rather nicely shaped Moonstone worth 30 gol
(of the above thats 1 each with 4 left over)
The 4 left over can be divvied up among the ones that dont take the holy symbol or the bow.
We know the scroll is going to Ekan, the potion and 2 alchemical items, ??
So 136 GP each plus an Onyx worth 30 GP each guaranteed. Grommund doesn't want the the symbol or the bow or the potion or the vials, so he'll also take a silver ring and a moonstone?
Yeah, while Ekan loves gold and gems as much as the next adventuring halfling, he definitely wants dibs on the scroll.
Ah yeah, you're right I did.
Tae can't carry a statue with her low str, so she'll take a moonstone and a ring (since she's not taking bow or holy symbol).
Their statuettes only about 8 inches high ;) but still ok. :D
Klor is interested in the gems only.
I have a table game tonight so minimal posting. from Klor.
Grommund
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
A Silver Ring worth 30 gold
and a moonstone worth 30 gold.
Carrying- The Hucrele Family Signet Ring's, The Daughters
Klor
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
Dwarven Statueete worth 30 Gold
and a moonstone worth 30 gold.
Larry
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
Dwarven Statueete worth 30 Gold
Masterwork Composite Long Bow +2 strength damage
(Chain Shirt)
Ekan
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
a moonstones worth 30 gold.
Arcane Scroll DC 20 Spellcraft or Read Magic to ID
Zarrick
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
a Moonstone worth 30 Gold
silver Holy Symbol to Norgorber- worth 25 Gold for value.
Tae
100 Silver
16 Gold
an Onyx Gem worth 30 Gold
A Silver Ring worth 30 gold
and a moonstone worth 30 gold.
Potion DC 16 Spellcraft using Detect Magic to aide.
2 Alchemical Vials DC 10 craft alchemy to id.
This look ok?
I think it looks generous.
Looks good to me.