Can summoners cuddle with their eidolons?

I had this humorous conversation with a player (a nature, animal-loving type). She's considering a summoner, and her eidolon, not able to fly yet or have those other cool powers that require mucho Evolution Points, is pretty basic with a bite and claws. She likes dogs, so it's kind of like a magical wolf-like creature right now.

She hesitated before switching from a nature mystery Oracle (with animal companion) to the Summoner, however, when she saw the following in the APG:

A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

She said, "Well, but I couldn't sleep with my eidolon so that kinda sucks."

You can imagine the jokes that ensued from there.

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

First off, that's Hilarious! Second, you don't even have to worry about it. There are no rules for sleep. You just need to "rest" for 8 hours a day. Everyone's an insomniac! But seriously, that's a fine house rule.

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

So if I'm playing a Synthesist in your game I never, ever, have to take off my eidolon super-suit? Venerable aged with a '1' in all physical Ability Scores here I come! :)

Quote:

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

So if I'm playing a Synthesist in your game I never, ever, have to take off my eidolon super-suit? Venerable aged with a '1' in all physical Ability Scores here I come! :)

Blecch, what a gross exploit! But perhaps that is more a defect of the Synthesist archetype design?

But actually, if I wanted to kill you in your sleep I'd find a way, your desire to cuddle with yourself notwithstanding. :)

So if I'm playing a Synthesist in your game I never, ever, have to take off my eidolon super-suit? Venerable aged with a '1' in all physical Ability Scores here I come! :)

Don't get hit with dismissal while suffering any amount of con damage!

I had this humorous conversation with a player (a nature, animal-loving type). She's considering a summoner, and her eidolon, not able to fly yet or have those other cool powers that require mucho Evolution Points, is pretty basic with a bite and claws. She likes dogs, so it's kind of like a magical wolf-like creature right now.

She hesitated before switching from a nature mystery Oracle (with animal companion) to the Summoner, however, when she saw the following in the APG:

Quote:

A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

She said, "Well, but I couldn't sleep with my eidolon so that kinda sucks."

You can imagine the jokes that ensued from there.

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

It's a house rule with incredible consequences. As eidolons don't need to sleep, they would simply be able to stand watch all night. As it is now, they cannot, and a summoner is without his eidolon if he gets ambushed in the night (unless he has Summon Eidolon available for casting or spends 10 rounds doing the ordinary ritual.

It's a house rule with incredible consequences. As eidolons don't need to sleep, they would simply be able to stand watch all night. As it is now, they cannot, and a summoner is without his eidolon if he gets ambushed in the night (unless he has Summon Eidolon available for casting or spends 10 rounds doing the ordinary ritual.

Well, that's a houserule killer. But where does it say that eidolons don't need to sleep?

Omelite wrote:

It's a house rule with incredible consequences. As eidolons don't need to sleep, they would simply be able to stand watch all night. As it is now, they cannot, and a summoner is without his eidolon if he gets ambushed in the night (unless he has Summon Eidolon available for casting or spends 10 rounds doing the ordinary ritual.

Well, that's a houserule killer. But where does it say that eidolons don't need to sleep?

Houserule addendum: If a Summoner is unconscious, killed, or put to sleep through magic or poison, the Eidolon is immediately banished. If the Summoner is naturally asleep, the Eidolon enters a dormant state, present on this plane but unable to act or react in any way until the Summoner awakens.

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

Just rule that when Summoner sleeps so does the Eidolon. It gives a small edge of not needing to resummon Eidolon when awakened (if you really feel it is overpowered then tax her one feat for it).

Does she intend to sleep or *sleep* with her Eidolon? I know for sure that it would ended with lots of jokes in my group.

Omelite wrote:

It's a house rule with incredible consequences. As eidolons don't need to sleep, they would simply be able to stand watch all night. As it is now, they cannot, and a summoner is without his eidolon if he gets ambushed in the night (unless he has Summon Eidolon available for casting or spends 10 rounds doing the ordinary ritual.

Well, that's a houserule killer. But where does it say that eidolons don't need to sleep?

Eidolons are outsiders.

"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep."

ronaldsf wrote:

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

Just rule that when Summoner sleeps so does the Eidolon. It gives a small edge of not needing to resummon Eidolon when awakened (if you really feel it is overpowered then tax her one feat for it).

I hadn't have Summoner in my party yet (whole PF group went for the core classes, with the exception of Witch) but I am thinking about houseruling for the future that Eidolon is just stunned whenever Summoner is unconscious or sleeping - only killing Summoner banishes the Eidolon.

Does she intend to sleep or *sleep* with her Eidolon? I know for sure that it would ended with lots of jokes in my group.

Taking up a feat (or simply modifying Resilient Eidolon from UM), I'd say this is a good houserule as long as no one's playing a synthesist, who can benefit inordinately from having their eidolon around when they sleep.

Does she intend to sleep or *sleep* with her Eidolon? I know for sure that it would ended with lots of jokes in my group.

"Sleep," as in the everyday, non-suggestive use of the term. Their relationship is not only interplanar but platonic. :)

We were not about to let our game slip into F.A.T.A.L. territory. Already with an extra creature, I have enough stats to keep up with now as it is!

There's a feat in UM that allows it to stick around while you're unconscious, but only for as many rounds as your class level. That's probably not enough, but I figured that I should point it out.

There's a feat in UM that allows it to stick around while you're unconscious, but only for as many rounds as your class level. That's probably not enough, but I figured that I should point it out.

I thought that I saw such thing on d20pfsrd site but I don't remember exact details - did it allowed Eidolon to take actions during this time?

Actually, I like the image of Eidolon just standing here stunned, slowly bobing from side to side and with video-game-like stars circling over its head while Summoner is incapacitated.

You could also just houserule that the eidolon goes into an invulnerable coma like stasis and won't awaken or become active until the ritual is enacted the next day OR the summoner casts the spell to activate the eidolon during that period (after which it slumps back in to the "coma"). That would follow all the restrictive rules given and still allow the character her planar "teddy bear."

Xenophile wrote:

There's a feat in UM that allows it to stick around while you're unconscious, but only for as many rounds as your class level. That's probably not enough, but I figured that I should point it out.

I thought that I saw such thing on d20pfsrd site but I don't remember exact details - did it allowed Eidolon to take actions during this time?

Actually, I like the image of Eidolon just standing here stunned, slowly bobing from side to side and with video-game-like stars circling over its head while Summoner is incapacitated.

There are no restrictions put on the eidolon when the feat kicks in, it would continue on doing whatever it was/should be doing. If there were restrictions on it, what point would there be in the feat anyways now that I think about it? Saving you from having to redo the ritual because you were lucky enough to not die completely? Seems rather pathetic for a feat.

Hmm, part of my problem here is that the RAW doesn't give any fluff about why something so severe as "banishment" occurs once our hero decides to take a catnap. And what if she's narcoleptic?

And I have a somewhat-related question: summoners control their eidolons in battle without having to do any skill checks, right? So would it be correct to say Summoners have some psychic link with their eidolons that also "grounds" the eidolons in the Material Plane? That would explain why the eidolon would be banished once the Summoner goes to sleep.

Drejk wrote:

Does she intend to sleep or *sleep* with her Eidolon? I know for sure that it would ended with lots of jokes in my group.

"Sleep," as in the everyday, non-suggestive use of the term. Their relationship is not only interplanar but platonic. :)

We were not about to let our game slip into F.A.T.A.L. territory. Already with an extra creature, I have enough stats to keep up with now as it is!

Well there is a magic item in the gods and magic book..

Hmm, part of my problem here is that the RAW doesn't give any fluff about why something so severe as "banishment" occurs once our hero decides to take a catnap. And what if she's narcoleptic?

And I have a somewhat-related question: summoners control their eidolons in battle without having to do any skill checks, right? So would it be correct to say Summoners have some psychic link with their eidolons that also "grounds" the eidolons in the Material Plane? That would explain why the eidolon would be banished once the Summoner goes to sleep.

Fluff is dependant on the gaming group, it will vary from table to table. Paizo, or any publisher will flesh out the RAW (ideally balanced rule variations) and "fluff" how it best works in their world. With that underlying concept sometimes things don't get fully fleshed out or explained. Heck sometimes going into those details ends up contradicting the RAW or causing confusion as the "fluff" doesn't change the mechanics as it is only a description or reasoning for the effect of the rules. Mechanically, the summoner has an intelligent customizable cohort. The existence of the cohort is based on the character being aware and functional, fluff it however you want for your games =) As long as you aren't altering the RAW the intended balance stands and works.

Given this is the rules forum my suggestion stays within the limitations of RAW and still gives the character what she wants, and I would consider that a win-win situation as both of those conditions being met isn't typically that easy lol. If you would like to alter the way the class works, I'd suggest a new post in the homebrew or advice forums as the topic strays from the intent of this forum here.

As for the lack of fluff I'd go out on a limb and say it was intentionally vague, detailing a psychic link or connection leads to people attempting to break that link or exploit it. The developers left it as, the summoner is in some way incapacitated, the eidolon goes *poof* and it is a limitation the class is built around (otherwise why allow for a spell for emergencies?) So I'm okay with it and will mold the fluff around the RAW as needed in our games for each individual character on a case to case, or as needed if people want to give a differing feel to their character concept.

Yes you can cuddle with your Eidolon, but spooning is right out.

Also, it's a full-round action and provokes attacks of opportunity.

Does it count as vigorous motion for concentration checks..? ;)

Sorry, sorry - it's late... I really should go to bed... :p

I don't have my Core Rulebook handy but -- do Elves sleep in Pathfinder? If not, then an Elf Summoner could cuddle with his or her eidolon all night long while trancing.

Fluff is dependant on the gaming group, it will vary from table to table. Paizo, or any publisher will flesh out the RAW (ideally balanced rule variations) and "fluff" how it best works in their world. With that underlying concept sometimes things don't get fully fleshed out or explained. Heck sometimes going into those details ends up contradicting the RAW or causing confusion as the "fluff" doesn't change the mechanics as it is only a description or reasoning for the effect of the rules. Mechanically, the summoner has an intelligent customizable cohort. The existence of the cohort is based on the character being aware and functional, fluff it however you want for your games =) As long as you aren't altering the RAW the intended balance stands and works.

Given this is the rules forum my suggestion stays within the limitations of RAW and still gives the character what she wants, and I would consider that a win-win situation as both of those conditions being met isn't typically that easy lol. If you would like to alter the way the class works, I'd suggest a new post in the homebrew or advice forums as the topic strays from the intent of this forum here.

As for the lack of fluff I'd go out on a limb and say it was intentionally vague, detailing a psychic link or connection leads to people attempting to break that link or exploit it. The developers left it as, the summoner is in some way incapacitated, the eidolon goes *poof* and it is a limitation the class is built around (otherwise why allow for a spell for emergencies?) So I'm okay with it and will mold the fluff around the RAW as needed in our games for each individual character on a case to case, or as needed if people want to give a differing feel to their character concept.

I getcha. I can see the balance considerations involved here.

I like your proposal of a coma-like state, actually, and I think it's a good compromise between fluff and game balance. My only complaint is that there's limited cuddling potential when the cuddlee in this case is in a coma lol. I don't see her complaining or drawing a hard line on around this, however. And I can always respond: "I'm willing to blur the line between planes for ya, whaddelsedayawant?" :)

I don't have my Core Rulebook handy but -- do Elves sleep in Pathfinder? If not, then an Elf Summoner could cuddle with his or her eidolon all night long while trancing.

Elves sleep in pathfinder.

I getcha. I can see the balance considerations involved here.

I like your proposal of a coma-like state, actually, and I think it's a good compromise between fluff and game balance. My only complaint is that there's limited cuddling...

If having a cuddle buddy is that important to the character I would probably be asking them to take a hard look at the druid, cleric or any of the other classes that offer some sort of companion. The hard truth is certain classes are not going to be able to fulfill certain character concepts even if they have abilities that you want included or to have access to. It is part of the "pain" you deal with when trying to create a character in a class based system. One of the strengths of the summoner is the ability to get help from thin air if you will. No need to have an animal companion following you everywhere being a possible detriment (stealth scenario with a huge animal anyone?). You can cherry pick when it is around, you can release it before it is destroyed to save it, there are many upsides to the "banishment" of the eidolon in comparison to animal companions or cohorts. And that is before getting into the customization aspect.

My proposed solution could even be considered a nerf honestly. If the party was ambushed and the eidolon was killed during the rest period, the summoner would be weakened quite a bit the next adventuring day. I know I wouldn't be happy about it, but at low levels a lucky shot or decent aoe opener could really mess with the summoner using that house rule/fluff option. Just something to consider before it accidentally happens ;)

I was just using coma as a readily understandable state. You could call or describe it however you want as long as the eidolon is effectively "out of play", it could still move in its current square, inch over, curl up and be semi reactive as long as it stayed in the same spot and took no real game/mechanically defined actions and gave no bonus to anyone else. The eidolon letting out a long huff while getting petted is okay, it getting aggravated and shuffling around in its spot because it heard incoming opponents and wants to wake you up is not.

If you want to balance it out, what I've done is this.

If you give up the SLA, then the eidelon stays around even when the summoner is unconscious. Then her eidelon can stay around all night, keep watch over her, etc. It's balanced as she's giving up the ability to summon creatures at will if the eidelon get's knocked out. She still has her spells.

We do the same in our group.
A Summoner in natural sleep does not have his Eidolon vanish but magical sleep, unconsciousness etc causes it to vanish. The fluff reason being that while naturally asleep the Summoner can subconsciously maintain the summoning. However it is effectively staggered during the duration of the sleep.

And I don't see the problem with having the eidolon awake during that time anyway. We already have elves in the party who only need 4 hours of rest so there's always at least 1 person awake at all times.

Some animal companions(and familiars) are nocturnal and can stay awake for most of the night anyway. Get yourself a homonculus and have a permanently awake sentry for little outlay.

isnt there a feat somewhere that allows the edilion to stay active while the summoner sleeps?

isnt there a feat somewhere that allows the edilion to stay active while the summoner sleeps?

Resilient eidolon only allows it to stick around a number of rounds equal to your summoner lvl after you fall asleep. So this would only be effective for short term cuddling.

isnt there a feat somewhere that allows the edilion to stay active while the summoner sleeps?

Yes, but that feat (Resilient Eidolon in Ultimate Magic) only lets the eidolon stick around for 1 round per level while the Summoner is asleeep, unconscious, or dead. That means that a 20th level Summoner/Eidolon pair would only get two minutes of cuddling in after the Summoner falls asleep -- so the Summoner will still wake up alone.

you could order your eidolon to nudge you awake every 2 minutes... then he would always be with you.

Your houserule works fine. It buffs the summoner, for sure. But an elf can still trance (elves of Golarion), though the devs have indicated that it's intended that they sleep, and overall "jump the party in the night" becomes useless pretty early on for most parties anyway.

Your houserule works fine. It buffs the summoner, for sure. But an elf can still trance (elves of Golarion), though the devs have indicated that it's intended that they sleep, and overall "jump the party in the night" becomes useless pretty early on for most parties anyway.

Elves of Golarion is on 3.5 system. This came up in another thread about keeping permanent watch.

(if you really feel it is overpowered then tax her one feat for it)..

I'd say this is minor enough to make it a trait rather than a feat.

Elves of Golarion is on 3.5 system. This came up in another thread about keeping permanent watch.

Yes of course, dev intent is known on this. But it's still official.

Sleeping elves is lame imo, but w/e.

you could order your eidolon to nudge you awake every 2 minutes... then he would always be with you.

No he wouldn't -- once you are sufficiently sleep deprived, you would quite likely strangle your eidolon. ;)

FYI, in case the originator of this thread still reads the Paizo boards after all these years -- The 3pp "Into the Breach: Summoners" has a summoner archetype called the Paracosmist. That archetype features an eidolon that explicitly does stick around while the summoner is asleep.

So it's funny that I've found this years later, due to the question I had to answer if Eidolon's need sleep on the Material Plane.

The reason this came around is that I came up with a similar house rule after having made a mistake in the very first session with my players as a new GM.

The house rule was this.

When the summoner is asleep, whether it be natural, from battle, or a spell, that his Eidolon would persist on the Material Plane. The drawback is that she (the Eidolon) would gain 50% concealment on both AC and Attacks. Meaning that she was halfway between her Home Plane and the Material Plane.

It gave an interesting perspective early game because it did indeed help with her tanking abilities early on in the game. As the Eidolon took on more evolutions (the ones that gave it 50% concealment all the time), the unconscious status is more prominently a hindrance.

This actually ended up developing some character specific plot points (as in this world, Summoner's typically have to resummon their Eidolons), which I'm still working with today. Thought I'd add my two cents on the subject though!

I had this humorous conversation with a player (a nature, animal-loving type). She's considering a summoner, and her eidolon, not able to fly yet or have those other cool powers that require mucho Evolution Points, is pretty basic with a bite and claws. She likes dogs, so it's kind of like a magical wolf-like creature right now.

She hesitated before switching from a nature mystery Oracle (with animal companion) to the Summoner, however, when she saw the following in the APG:

Quote:

A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

She said, "Well, but I couldn't sleep with my eidolon so that kinda sucks."

You can imagine the jokes that ensued from there.

Well, I'm houseruling that the aforementioned sentence, given its context, is referring to battle-caused unconsciousness and sleep. Thus, she may cuddle with her eidolon without burning any Evolution Points to do so. :)

The summoner in my game can't stay asleep without the hit to the head caused by her eidolon pillow disappearing as she doses off.

Late to the game, but RAW wise this is a no.
Homegame rule wise it can get tricky. I'd just have 'no mechanical benefit' while sleeping and have the eidolon go translucent. Maintain the 10 consecutive rounds to summon the eidolon to gain a mechanical benefit.

Resilient eidolon will still be there for a few rounds after you fall asleep :)

You can use the SLA for a handful of snuggle buddies. Just keep in mind that anything they bring with them disappears when they go away.... Including any clothing of theirs you might be wearing as you walk out onto the deck of a ship and shortly end up buck naked because your Azata summon expired. Just saying.