Something odd about tieflings

I was looking at the Tieflings, working on a character, and I noticed something odd. Not sure it has been brought up before here but did they mix up the Hellspawn and Pitborn Tieflings?

The Hellspawn Tielings (Devils), thematically fit in with being manipulative and diabolical. As an alternate skill modifier, they get bonuses to diplomacy and sense motive. They have +2 con, +2 wis, and -2 cha. Seems strange that they have a charisma penalty since they seem to be the persuasive, manipulative lawful based talkers. You know, like devils are themed to be.

The Pitborn Tielflings (Demons) are listed as destructive and savage beasts, like how demons tend to be. Yes I know there are exceptions, like Succubi but I am talking thematically on average. They get +2 cha, +2 str, and -2 int. They also get bonuses in disable device and perception. A bit odd given these are generally not the subtle talkers and more of the "Smash the enemy" chaotic beings.

It just really looks like that the hellspawn ones should get the charisma bonus and the pitborn should have the con bonus. Change the penalties too I suppose. I dunno, but they don't seem to fit what they are described as and look like they need a rebuild on their attributes.

Anyone else notice this, or am I wrong on this?

No, Pitborn seem fine for Strength.

Maybe change the 1st ability score listed keep the second.

So Hellspawn become:
+2 Wis. Bonuses to Diplomacy/sense motive.

Pitborn become:
+2 Con, +2 Str, -2 Int. Makes way more sense actually. Although maybe too strong.

The fact that the devil one has a minus to cha really bothered me for my infernal sorc/diabolist who was a lawyer. So he was pitborn instead.

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

Skylancer4 wrote:

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

The way folks consider used car salesmen... it's just as easy to ascribe a Charisma penalty to them as anything else. They are just wise enough (and perhaps have good Sense Motive mojo) to prey upon those who AREN'T wise.

Devil feels like a +2 INT, +2 CHA, -2 STR type. Demon feels like a +2 STR, +2 CHA, -2 INT fits. Devils are not only charming, but clever. The previous sort of devilborn tiefling would make a decent Cleric, but I envision devilborn tieflings to be better wizards or sorcerers- the studious, arcane type. Being perceptive and wise is a secondary trait. Demons are brimming with raw power and are terrifying, but most don't have a lick of common sense and the vast majority aren't so smart, either. Barbarian, Bloodrager, and Sorcerer are the classes I imagine they'd most likely fall into. Still, it might be worth an analysis.

The problem is Paizo made every tiefling variant have a penalty to a mental stat and devils don't have a good mental stat to dump.

Squiggit wrote:

Skylancer4 wrote:

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

The way folks consider used car salesmen... it's just as easy to ascribe a Charisma penalty to them as anything else. They are just wise enough (and perhaps have good Sense Motive mojo) to prey upon those who AREN'T wise.

Unfortunately, this just means that the mindset doesn't fit the reality.

Having a higher Wisdom and Sense Motive has nothing to do with actually being a used car salesman. It has nothing to do with convincing anyone else of anything. It's only useful in seeing through people's lies and doesn't help in telling lies or even being convincing, in the slightest.

We can spin most anything how we want but at the end of the day it either produces results or it's just talk.

This, good sir, is just talk.

I don't even understand how wisdom and sense motive could possibly be used to convince someone to buy something, from a flavor perspective (if thats what ashiel meant by mindset, and reality being mechanics, I apologize if I misunderstood).

On the flipside sure. Someone naive being swindled by a skilled liar. (IE sense motive, a WIS skill, vs bluff, a CHA skill)

A car salesman having a penalty for Charisma for being a stereotypical skeezy car salesman (not saying all are, but thinking cartoon villain here) I can see that. But that guy isn't going to be a very good car salesman. And a devil is trying to make a deal with you thats far worse than being sold a lemon.

Because Profession(Barrister) is based on Wisdom

I don't even understand how wisdom and sense motive could possibly be used to convince someone to buy something, from a flavor perspective

It's not very well supported by the mechanics, but I think from a fluff perspective you could argue that being very good at reading people allows you to know exactly the right thing to say.

When I mentioned it in the first place I was imagining this sort of slightly sleezy used car salesmen who is just silver tongued and convincing enough to have you not realize how much slime you've gotten yourself covered in dealing with him until you're already leaving with the keys.

Which is basically how I picture a good chunk of devils too.

Skylancer4 wrote:

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

Why? nobody likes used car salesmen, not even other used car salesmen.

Squiggit wrote:

Skylancer4 wrote:

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

Why? nobody likes used car salesmen, not even other used car salesmen.

And yet, people still make deals with them... To me, that's a good sign that they're charismatic.

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Skylancer4 wrote:

Intimidate is a CHA skill, so it isn't totally out of place.

I agree with this. I can totally see demons toting around the whole force of personality aspect of Charisma. Bludgeoning people with that as much as they bludgeon them with weapons.

It is weird that the used car salesmen of the underworld get a cha penalty though.

Why? nobody likes used car salesmen, not even other used car salesmen.

And yet, people still make deals with them... To me, that's a good sign that they're charismatic.

Actually it's more political than that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMWmYJOa-BM

Being able to read your customers wants and needs is essential to a skilled salesman. It may not be represented well in game mechanics but in real life it is very important. One of the most common sales techniques is to find something in common with your customer and talk about it. This allows you to analyze the customer and find out what is important to them. From there you can tailor your pitch to better target the customer. By framing the benefits of your product in a way the target can relate to greatly improve your chances of making the sale.

Devils also tend to be more subtle in their manipulations. Instead of overpowering your will and forcing you to do what they want they offer to fulfill your desires for a small price. The whole pitch is more about your desires than the cost of the service. Instead of arguing with the devil you end up arguing with yourself. You really want <insert hidden desire>, and the cost is really not that bad.

None of that has anything to do with +Wis though. If we're trying to frame it as you are, we could just as easily say +Int is the key factor. However, what actually is relevant is which stats actually affect these things, which is what's causing the disconnect for the original poster.

Wisdom and Sense Motive factually do nothing in this case.

That said, aside from whatever fluff is attributed to either one, "the pit" is also synonymous with Hell. Hence "Pit Fiend", so Hellspawn and Pitborn could just represent different points in Hell.

That said, it doesn't really matter because they don't draw very good parallels anyway and in either case they're both at a wash when it comes to how good they are at convincing others to do things (+1), albeit the Pitborn is universally better at it since they also get the same +1 to Bluff for deceptions.

The Hellspawn Tielings (Devils),get bonuses to diplomacy and sense motive. They have +2 con, +2 wis, and -2 cha.

The Pitborn Tielflings (Demons), get +2 cha, +2 str, and -2 int. They also get bonuses in disable device and perception.

a teifling is only half (evil source) so, maybe... devil gives bonus wis but everyone can tell your evil so you take a cha penalty(you don't get whatever inherent magic that makes them so believable.) diplomacy, and sense motive are both skill I would practice excessively, if my dad was a devil.

it makes sense to me, but yes this is MUCH more convoluted then their heritage's would lead me to belive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there ways to use your Int or Wisdom bonus instead of Cha bonus for social skills?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there ways to use your Int or Wisdom bonus instead of Cha bonus for social skills?

Several. The Student of Philosophy and Clever Wordplay Traits and the Conversion Inquisition leap to mind.

I could easily see the Clever Wordplay trait on any tiefling who's intending to be the "slimy car salesman" type.

I could easily see the Clever Wordplay trait on any tiefling who's intending to be the "slimy car salesman" type.

Which is neither here nor there. Because such a trait exists doesn't somehow suggest that dwarfs are actually social geniuses, nor does it to a particular race.

It's just a trait that exists in a vacuum that does a thing. It doesn't by any stretch represent anything about a particular race.

It's just questionable design, plain and simple. Happens all the time. Writers are only humans after all.