Screw it. Apparently I'm too tired to say what I'm trying to say here, so why bother?
Talking is hard.
As is not-slacking.
Okay, I've been wondering this for a while: Tanith, how are your saves so high?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He gets to add his Strength to all his saves. And his AC.
Basically, Tanith is pretty close to being literally SAD. All he needs is Strength-based spells and some way to add Strength instead of Constitution to Hit Points. ;D
He gets to add Str to all saves. And AC.
I don't allow Godlings in my games.
Ah. Right.
It's like I'm a dex-based character!
Really though Tanith's saves aren't that much higher than a paladin's would be at this level. I have a level 8 PFS paladin and I believe his saves are roughly the same.
Dex based characters need to spend 2-3 Feats just to function, have a limited weapon selection, and still only add their Dex to Ref saves. All in exchange for stat consolidation and STILL doing less damage than a Str based character.
And the difference between a Paladin and...this is that Cha is a secondary stat needed for Divine Grace. And Cha does a LOT less than most other stats already.
That Godling ability is as bad as that one Feat that lets Oracles add Cha to saves.
You use Str for hit, damage, AC, ALL saves, carrying capacity, and basically everything but skills and HP.
Edit: Scratch that, you partially get to use it for SKILLS too.
And I still don't know where "Armored by Brawn" comes from.
Over a dex-based character Tanith adds strength to two saves. A roughly dex-based equivalent would have invested 2 feats (weapon finesse and fencing grace). Tanith’s invested 1 feat and two class levels. Is two class levels a fair cost to use your primary stats for two additional saves?
Carrying capacity? Seriously? I’ll be generous and call carrying capacity a wash in exchange for initiative and ranged attack rolls.
And I still don't know where "Armored by Brawn" comes from.
That's just a reskinned Nature's Whispers.
He actually invested three class levels—Force of Brawn comes at third level. That said, godling isn't exactly only good for that one ability. You're getting d10 hit dice and good BAB, good Reflex and Fort saves, lots of new class skills, a domain, and your divine trait.
*Beat*
...wait, how is Tanith getting Force of Brawn at 2nd level? What'd I forget this time?
Over a dex-based character Tanith adds strength to two saves. A roughly dex-based equivalent would have invested 2 feats (weapon finesse and fencing grace). Tanith’s invested 1 feat and two class levels. Is two class levels a fair cost to use your primary stats for two additional saves?
Carrying capacity? Seriously? I’ll be generous and call carrying capacity a wash in exchange for initiative and ranged attack rolls.
Two class levels in most classes would be a fair trade. Maybe. 2 level dips aren't sacrificing much, really. So actually no.
Definitely not two class levels in a full BaB class that gets a free Domain at 1st level that stacks with all your other Domain granting classes, and gets to cherry pick from a bunch of other class' abilities as it pleases.
The Godling is basically "The Build-A-Class class".
Feats, on the other hand, are fewer and farther between than class levels overall, and worth more to a character as well.
Fencing Grace requires THREE Feats (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and itself), to use Dex to damage with ONE weapon.
Deadly Agility, the 3PP equivalent, requires two to use it with any Finesseable weapon, which is still more of an investment than 2 levels in a class that gives you +2 to two saves, +6 to all three in addition, and +6 AC.
That'd be Extra Divine Trait (which is supposed to be Extra Divine Talent... fixing now).
Where's that from? It's not on the PFSRD, and it hasn't been mentioned on this thread. It seems weird that a feat would grant you extra access to an ability you don't even have yet.
EDIT: Ah.
Where's that from? It's not on the PFSRD, and it hasn't been mentioned on this thread.
It's just not particularly well designed. Unlike every other Feat like it, it does not have a Prerequisite: Scion Talent class feature. So while you only get Scion Talents at 3rd level normally, you can pick it up at 1st.
I agree godling is very open for abuse. I wouldn't trust it in the hands of most players.
That said, I don’t think I’ve abused it at all. If KC feels otherwise I’d be happy to revisit things. All I really wanted originally was a way for strength to do what dex does for AC.
I don't think you've abused it per se, but the effect is still MASSIVE.
Without those 2 levels I'd say you'd be functioning at at least half capacity (-6 AC, -6 saves, -2 Fort/Ref), so to say that the investment is heftier than three Feats is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? Roughly 1/4 of your levels determine over half your effectiveness.
Is that a sign of godling being too good or strength being too bad?
I'll say that had I gone over godling more fully at the start, I might have felt differently about allowing it. I like the flavor, but Tanith is pretty effective even without eliminating next to every possible weakness. I was trying to work out what Tanith's weakest point is the other day—Carina is vulnerable to Will-based effects, both she and Eben can't easily withstand a prolonged melee, Farrukh's Touch AC and Will save are both fairly mediocre, etc—and the only one I could really find is lacking ranged attacks. This is going to matter more as time goes on, and I wouldn't ignore it, but it's fairly situational. Especially when there are spells like wind walk available.
Everything else about Tanith isn't just good, it's extremely good. He can raise his AC to equal Farrukh's, his CMD lets him add Strength twice, his damage and to-hit is great, his saves are airtight, he has the most Hit Points of the entire party, he can fight with reach and at close quarters simultaneously, and he can heal himself as a swift action. I can't even remember the last time Tanith went into negatives or seemed to be in serious danger.
In short, he's very, very well-built. In all fairness, some of this was due to pressure from other players—Feral was fine with a low AC before people started pushing him to get armor. I don't think Feral's trying to minmax. It just sort of happened that Tanith has the most minimized weaknesses and maximized strengths of the entire party.
Personally, I find weaknesses—both roleplaying ones and statistical ones—make a character more interesting. I think Feral's fine with Tanith having a few vulnerabilities, too. I'd like to leave godling be, but after this installment, some modifications might be appropriate. Feral can decide what he values and what he doesn't find important to the concept of Tanith.
Saving throws and Armor Class are the only two ways a character can get hurt. Having your entire defensive front be supported by the same ability you use for your entire offensive front is pretty dang powerful.
I can do without the strength to saves thing. If you don’t remember, it was actually you that convinced me to take it originally. I’m going to miss strength to a few skills. Poor strength. =(
I wouldn't say I convinced you. I pointed it out as an option, since you were looking ways to do the "flexing" thing. I actually brought it up for the secondary skill-based benefit. :P
The ability can probably be modified to just apply to one save or the sort. It doesn't have to be removed completely. We'll work it out later.
In the meantime, Astraden might want to roll her save preemptively while we wait for Rodrigo.
If only someone had a way to reach her...
I think Gark's in a class right now. He's not online on Skype.
How dare he?!
Are you guys attending the same school?
Nah. I'm at community college, he's at regular college. It's finals week, but I finished Tuesday. :D
Admittedly, the reason I brought the whole thing about Tanith's saves up is that I was feeling rather salty about RNGesus seeing fit to keep subjecting me to high-DC Will saves, bombs to the back, near-total strangulation, and being right smack-dab at the front when the latest surprise hits (killer floor, being doused in amniotic fluid). It's all rather contributed to me feeling like I'm dragging the party's effectiveness down.
I'm reasonably certain that's not the case, but...
Just bad luck on your part, really. And one of the hazards of playing a character with low Will saves.
And low STR. Ya kinda left that out. :)
One of Carina's strengths is her being the only partymember with a steady stream of touch attacks.
In this installment, she has faced:
Invisible stalkers
Rogues
Monks
Creatures that grapple her
These are four things that tend to be difficult to hit with touch attacks. Carina's actually done a lot with her buffs, too, but that's obviously harder to spot. :P
If it's of any comfort, the next installment is going to have a lot more all-out battles. Fewer surprises.
I think Carina’s fine. She’s perfectly effective for a 7th level alchemist. It just so happens that everything we’ve been encountering 7th level alchemists aren’t so effective against. =(
On the plus side we’ve eliminated several dangerous gunslingers from the world. Soon Carina will be the only one!
She's actually 6th level with a dip in Gunslinger.
Of course, next level I'll get an attribute boost and 3rd-level extracts. So that'll work out fine. :)
3rd level elixirs are pretty nice.
Mmm… Orchid’s Drop…
Yeah, Orchid's Drop is the BOMB.
Expensive though.
Get a Potion of Orchid's Drop and Alchemical Allocation it instead. =)
Gross.
Also you can't make a potion of Orchid's Drop. It's a personal spell.
Just a note, Orchid's Drop is a pretty explicitly setting-specific spell. As such, some flavor changes might be in order. I wouldn't change any actual statistics, though.
I was going to offer to ping WW on Steam and then I remembered I didn't have his Steam info. =/
He just showed up on the map.
I get the feeling people really want me to take Orchid's Drop as my 3rd-level extract...
A +2 bonus to all saves for an hour/level is pretty good.
Still expensive though.
As long as you promise to not spit it back into the bottle so you can drink the backwash again later.
Couldn't you guys have remembered the magic circle thing before this combat so I could have dismissed him and called a hound archon instead? :'(
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My powers are strong, but only activate when they will cause maximum inconvenience.
Just to retroactively throw in my two cents on the Str based character thing....damn. I didn't realize godling could add str to so many things. That's insanely powerful.
In my book, strength is better than any other stat because it equals damage, which ends fights. Unless you're a full spell caster, not being str based will almost always be worse in PF rules. Dex equaling str is a joke. Make any dex character and I'll make a str based character that can take them.
I never allow 3PP stuff in my games anyway, and I don't care how powerful Tanith is. But, damn. I wish I'd known that for some of my past characters with DMs who allow 3PP.
I like 3PP stuff, but only on a very select basis. Dreamscarred Press' stuff is good at my table, along with a few things I've been given copies of to review and liked (Fighter: Nuances and Dragon Tiger Ox, especially the latter. I'm a sucker for Monks.).
Rogue Genius is one of my least favorite publishers, however. They don't seem to care a whole ton for balance, going SOLELY on a thematic basis.
There's a few other classes on the SRD I like (the Artificer seems neat, frex) but mostly no.
All I want is strength to AC. I'd gladly pay 2-3 feats for it.
There's no 3PP I'm especially fond of. Their design is usually way off the mark one direction or the other. Some of the Red Goblin Games stuff has piqued my interest in the past but it never quite hits the mark.
Edit:
I also want whatever performance-enhancing drugs this octopin is on banned.
You know what's sad?
Aside from standard conversions (meaning giving it the two feats 3.5 didn't grant) and fixing a small bookmaking error that didn't give it its ability score hit dice increases (applying neither to Strength), I did not adjust this encounter at all.
I did consider moving it in with Zyrxog for the final fight, but that weird little voice in my head told me that would be wrong for some reason.
Strength to AC is worth two Feats IMO (just like I think Dex to Damage should be). But I'm not really clamoring for you to rebuild.
This monster literally one-shots any of us.
Am I allowed to call this encounter rocket tag? =P
I can try to stagger it with my frost bombs.