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10 con is really pretty low, and 2.5 playing up to 3-4 would be understandably more difficult, especially for a party of 4. (Now, a solid level 2 party of 6+ getting creamed at tier 1-2 by a 'speedbump' encounter...)
That said, I think people frequently split up attacks (players do it all of the time), and I don't how often she and her group will keep coming back. :-\
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Well, I mean, I'm the same - I prefer not to kill characters as well and will typically not attack a character who is down... but I don't think saying "Well the troll would've actually stopped attacking so you live!" is really fair. It makes in-game sense that the troll didn't control itself and kind of teaches the character a lesson about not trying to face-tank a melee brute with 10 Con :P
Plus... ret-conning stuff after the game isn't really kosher.
Given what is going on in the gameplay thread, my answer should come as no surprise. If their actions lead to their deaths, then that is on them. Someone shouldn't get truly upset over a 10 con melee person playing up, and then dying because of it. If they are, then they have an unrealistic perspective of the game, and I probably wouldn't want to play with them anyway. Sad over the death, sure, that happens, but pitching a fit and not playing again... This game should be challenging at times, and without that challenge, we might as well just make all characters lvl 20 and make up stories about how they got there.
The only time I've ret-conned a death, was when it was someone who had to miss an event was being NPC'd. I don't kill PC's if the player isn't around, but will treat them like the enemy should.
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Mez,
... And I'm wondering how on earth this is supposed to have been a "speedbump" encounter considering the lack of light abilities at this level.
The first creature (darkness caster) was a Derro alchemist. The second is a level 3 rogue Mite with weapon finesse. Normally he isn't that big of an issue because he gets his surprise jump out and stab, then dies like a chump. The fact the darkness cloud was chased in here is adding a whole new level of difficulty. Yes, both are for the 1-2 level range. I checked. At higher levels there are more creatures and a few trolls thrown in.
Also, sorry about the darkness issue. I'm realizing I may have to buy a potion of darkvision in the future for all my characters. I can also see why they give you a dwarven cohort to help.
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::puts on VC hat::
Derek, as Alice said, retconning is frowned upon in PFS. In this case, I say to let it stand. It's sad, but death is a part of the game, even if such death seems undeserved. I had a GM TPK a party on the first encounter of the scenario; an encounter which, by all rights, should have been fairly easy for them, but due to a series of particularly poor dice rolls, all of the PCs went down and the scenario specifically stated that the enemy had been instructed to kill them, not capture them. In retrospect, there were ways that the GM could have saved the party, but at the time, he didn't think of them.
It was particularly tragic because these were 1st level characters, one of which was brand new to the game.
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A potion of darkvision costs 300, though, for that 1 minute, IIRC.
And as I remember derro, they can cast darkness at will, IIRC, reinforcing my points about being pretty screwed and waiting a bit not being very useful: the derro escapes and comes back healed, with friends (or even just a, and with the darkness.
Sorry James/Ebon and Todric, but we might have to exit this encounter and scenario, as we are both diminished and unable to handle darkness, risking a really futile TPK: Norine, Targost, and Calanthe aren't going to do any better against this than the whole group, especially the fighters.
Calanthe, we could still try to circle around the other side, as Torvic appears to be doing, and support him, whatever the risk. (Is he even armored?)fu
WhtKnt - Losing 1st level characters in live games is a lot less tragic, though, than losing characters built up over months by the slow, intensive PbP method. And, since there is no way to come back with a similarly-leveled PC in PFS (as in a typical home game), a loss of a character can be the same as the loss of the group unless the player conveniently has another character of that level. (It is possible that James/Ebon could 'rejoin' the group still since we are only level 2, but such would be really impossible at any higher level.) I think I am rapidly souring on PFS and its limitations. At least in a home game, you could roll up another level 2 (or whatever) character.
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A potion of darkvision costs 300, though, for those few minute, IIRC. Better take two or more if there are (likely) two of more such creatures in a scenario.
And as I remember derro, they can cast darkness at will, IIRC, reinforcing my points about being pretty screwed and waiting a bit not being very useful: the derro escapes and comes back healed, with friends (or even just a, and with the darkness.
Sorry James/Ebon and Todric, but we might have to exit this encounter and scenario, as we are both diminished and unable to handle darkness, risking a really futile TPK: Norine, Targost, and Calanthe aren't going to do any better against this than the whole group, especially the fighters.
Calanthe, we could still try to circle around the other side, as Torvic appears to be doing, and support him, whatever the risk. (Is he even armored?)fu
WhtKnt - Losing 1st level characters in live games is a lot less tragic, though, than losing characters built up over months by the slow, intensive PbP method. And, since there is no way to come back with a similarly-leveled PC in PFS (as in a typical home game), a loss of a character can be the same as the loss of the group unless the player conveniently has another character of that level. (It is possible that James/Ebon could 'rejoin' the group still since we are only level 2, but such would be really impossible at any higher level.) I think I am rapidly souring on PFS and its limitations. At least in a home game, you could roll up another level 2 (or whatever) character.
I'm sorry this scenario has seemingly become so un-fun for everyone :(
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Nah, not your fault Mez. Sorry if I seemed crabby. I had an exam this morning and I've been stressing out about that (and manifesting an aura of menace 20 ft. as a result).
Plus I'm just overall frustrated at how useless we all are (and that my only valid turns are basically either "do something (which is probably ineffective because everyone always saves against my stuff *grumble*)" or "do nothing but at least everyone else can do something" - so basically, crap for me or crap for everyone else.)
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Yeah, as Targost is saying, it isn't the GM but the scenario(s) and the composition of the party: if we had a fighter with darkvision, especially, it might have different.
(Also crabby as I haven't slept well recently.)
God. F!%% darkness. Seriously. Twice in a row I have to deal with this stupid mechanic that has no counterplay at low levels. Either you see through it or you don't. Ugh!
Me, too, my last was also at Tier 1-2, although the other GM (I believe incorrectly) allowed my continual light to dispel the darkness. We had a 3rd level dwarf in the party, so perhaps it would have been a different story.
On the other point, I was wondering whether I should stick with PFS for the group reason. What do you do if you have a regular group and you lose a character? You're kind of stuck without options - the player is out of the group - especially where this is the only PF playing someone is doing and so doesn't have some built-up characters waiting in the wings.
I had expected to possibly lose a character, of course (and done some calc's on 2% and 5% risk per scenario - very grim odds of getting to 6th), and even a TPK means the group can just trudge back to 1st level again.
But, there is precisely zero chance of changing the system, so it's take it or leave it. :-\
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My only suggestion is to always keep a buffer of PP in case your character dies so you can afford the rez.
(No, really. That's what most people do.)
Home games are always better, of course. PFS has its charms though. The ability to play it anywhere, with varied people each time, is awesome. It's also less likely for the GM or players to drop mid-scenario for PBP which is a sadly common occurrence.
But you can pool money. Also, have a little faith my dear cleric, or I shall begin calling Desna the Goddess of Doom and Gloom!
Thanks for the support guys. I think I took the PC's death harder than the player seemed to. You always remember your first...*head snaps back out of reverie*.
I'd never heard the term "face-tank" before Calanthe, but it fits this player's 10 CON and 20 CHA paladin perfectly. I don't feel bad they suffered for dumping a KEY stat with a martial character.
And we might survive this yet! You know, if Ebon and I were both prone, you others could be slinging ranged attacks at the now uncovered foe. As is, one of us really needs to support Ebon.
I have now run 16 tables of PFS games, and I've had exactly one PC death. Probably should have been more *looks at GM Mezegis re: Dalsine Affair*, but there it is. I have even more tables of credit as a player (18-ish), and I've yet to have a PC die *crossing fingers, knocking on all wooden surfaces*. It's going to happen sometime. As I said, this is only the third time one of my PC's even went negative.
But darkness sucks, and we could all die, so let's be smart, and maybe we'll pull through with a great story to tell about it!
Have I ever mentioned I HATE the Diehard feat?
It completely handcuffs the GM into certain tactics they might have otherwise not employed. :(
I do understand the RP reason for taking it, and I applaud Ebon for sticking true to his character in the face of almost certain death and not tactically retreating. I also applaud Chakka for pointing it out to me and not pulling a "Oh wait, I have this feat, I'm really up!" kind of thing after the fight is over. That said, I do apologize in advance if the next turn goes VERY sour for the PC's :(
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Thanks for the support Ebon! Glad I could come through with a timely hit. With 9 HP I can take up 22 damage and still live. We both have CLW wands on us.
Calanthe is still showing as being right behind you on the map. Maybe she could give you a quick heal, then you could attack? One good hit ought to drop this sucker.
I'm finding a frustrating part of this is not telling you guys the optimum set of actions, lol!
See, no TPK! Heck, not even a single death! Told ya to have faith :D
I also liked Calanthe's mini-heartattacks as she watched Ebon and Todric yoyoing at deaths door. Sometimes having deathwatch up may not be the best thing, lol.
Tactic #3: Profit !!!
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Yes, tactics could be improved. I'm not sure how we're best able to apply our resources in every given encouter. We also may need some mechanical improvement if our team is to continue together.
In terms of traditional roles we have:
Melee combatant: Ebon and Todric
Ranged combatant: None
Skill Monkey: Brandon?
Divine Caster: Norine, Calanthe
Arcane Caster: Targost, Calanthe
Utility Caster: None
Now, we don't necessarily need a PC in every role, and overlap is good in case one or two PC's get in a real jam (unconscious, color sprayed, dominated, darknessed).
We ought to be able to function pretty well given most encounters. One thing we may lack is the ability to reliably deal good damage at range, which only comes up once in a while.
By level 4-5 Ebon and I should always carry a potion of fly with us, and we should have several oils of daylight in the group.
I am considering burning 5 PP to retrain my Weapon Focus feat to gain proficiency with the Elven Curve Blade. It wouldn't fit my "swashbuckler" style, and I wouldn't go Duelist after level 6 (admittedly a LONG way off). But having a two-handed weapon that I could finesse and Power Attack with would greatly improve my DPR potential, especially at level 4 and 8 when that Powr Attack bonus reallt ramps up.
Now, none of the above deals with actual tactics. So to address tactical concerns: In general, who should move where and when given a certain encounter type? How do we make better use of action economy?
EDIT: Ninja'd! - the following is a no-no! - Should we generally allow fleeing enemies to run, or chase them down?
Should we avoid in-combat healing when possible, especially when our primary combat "role" is to deal hit point damage?
What expendables should we purchase to expand our tactical options? I.e. poitons of darkvision and fly; oils of daylight; wands, etc.?
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Once Calanthe gains a few levels (and, hence, doesn't have almost no spells/day), she will be decent at range - my intention is to use a lot of rays and eventually enervation. Of course, she's primarily a debuffer rather than a damage dealer, but...
Targost will probably be good at range too.
For Utility casting, we have Norine and I as prepared casters. Especially Norine who doesn't have to pay to learn new spells. :P
I don't know if it's really worth trading away your awesome rapier imagery just to get better DPR. I think characterisation is more important than optimising damage output. BTW Tod, have you considered this PRC: Student of War? I think it goes well with the Lore Warden class, although perhaps Duelist might be more your style.
Should we generally allow fleeing enemies to run, or chase them down?
Circumstantially let them go. Running into unknown territory is dangerous. Also, generally speaking, most "runners" will be essentially noncombatants from there on, but if it might have an impact in the future we can reconsider... but not at the expense of dangerously running into unknown terrain.
Should we avoid in-combat healing when possible, especially when our primary combat "role" is to deal hit point damage?
At low levels healing in combat is unavoidable at times, but especially as we gain a few levels you should probably think otherwise. In any case, I strongly suggest you leave that to Norine and I because we play second-fiddle in combat to you guys!
What expendables should we purchase to expand our tactical options? I.e. poitons of darkvision and fly; oils of daylight; wands, etc.?
Potions of darkvision and/or oils of daylight as soon as feasible.
Potions of fly once you hit level 5 or so and flying foes start becoming more common. (I can cast Fly at level 5, but it will probably be a few levels before I can afford to do so frequently. A wand of fly would be nice if exorbitantly expensive...)
Splash weapons for the inevitable swarm encounters!
Crazy day at work cleaning up fires before the holiday. I'll have an update a bit later tonight. Try and decide which path to take next please.
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Sorry to keep the pessimism going on the gameplay thread instead of the discussion thread... :-P
I don't know how much in-combat strategizing is permissible, but as I was mentioning to Mez in another of his incarnations, one possibility might be if a revived Norine casts True Strike (her last spell), thus hitting with an alchemical silver/cold iron sling bullet - knocking out regeneration for a round - followed by a good magic missile and hits with various bows and crossbows.
We could also try to wait out her spells (particularly flight and the fear effects) and hope there is a limitation on times per day, putting everyone on more level footing, literally speaking.
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It was specifically noted that she did not cast a spell to fly, and I am going to hazard a guess that her fear auras are not spells either, but supernatural abilities...
This encounter makes #2 of "Stuff that is incredibly unbalanced and unfun for low tier" about this scenario. I am likely to write a very critical review of this scenario once we are done.
Part of why I feel bad is because I picked this scenario specifically because ppl mentioned it had some challenging encounters, and I feel the majority of PFS have some fairly easy ones. It seems they have a hard time balancing the fine line between rewarding challenge and stupidly powerful.
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I think that these challenges would've been better at a higher tier (say, 3-5) where you have more likelihood of a couple of things to help out in these encounters - silver weapons, darkvision potions, fly potions, more buffs and spells that can help deal with the enemies - and you aren't hoping for a 15+ to even hit the target or a really good roll on the (near constant) fear saving throws.
Don't feel bad for picking the scenario, feel bad for rolling stupidly well constantly! :P
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So I think if we want to blanch arrows, Todric might be our best option. Just have Mez roll my attacks! With bless up, I would "only" need a 14 to hit (35% chance!). Brandon's really close, but I can deal d8+2 dmg compared to d6.
Calanthe/Alice - I checked out the Student of War - looks interesting, but I'm wondering which source it comes from. Couldn't seem to tell based on what the d20prd had listed.
Gravity bow is personal only, so you couldn't have cast it on Todrics bow.
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Targost, Maybe save your Magic Missiles until the regeneration is knocked out or a knock out blow can be dealt by other weapons.
As per her apparent spell-like abilities, I should have said "spells or spell-like abilities", since the SLAs could range from 1/day to "At will (like the derro's darkness, IIRC). So, they might run out or they might not.
I was thinking that I was relatively well-prepared, too: wands of CLW and Bless, a bludgeoning weapon, cold iron and alchemical silver daggers, 5 sling stones of cold iron with adamantine w.b., 5 cold iron with alch. silver blanch (more at home, but sling stone are heavy), some flasks for swarms, etc.
Having one classic, dedicated archer with the appropriate arrows could swing it, though.
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Well, other scenarios can be unexpectedly hard, too:
In another one (the
Spoke with someone else I know who GM's a lot of PFS about this scenario, and he agrees it's just brutal. When he ran it there were 2 deaths. One from the rogue mite, and another from this nightmare cleric.
So look on the bright side, you guys/gals are actually doing BETTER than other people, lol.