GM Fuzzfoot's AP: Giantslayer

Game Master PJP

Okay, so what I'm hoping to buy right now is:

+1 rapier
+1 burgler's buckler (Tam can make half-price)
+1 mithral shirt (Tam can enchant half-price)
mwk shortbow
slippers of spider climbing (Tam can make half-price)
amulet of natural armor (Tam can make half-price)
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone) (Tam can make half-price)

The only things I'd have to check whether I could buy are the small +1 rapier and small mwk shortbow. Tam should be able to craft the rest.

Am I good to go with these purchases?

Yes these should be available.

Will we have enough money for Tam to create that belt for me?

Back in Trunau, the party gets some much needed rest. Upon hearing Balmir’s wishes, he sends off to a friend to acquire a scroll of Bull’s Strength so that he can make a Belt of Oxen’s Strength. In a few days, he proudly displays his creation to the dwarf. (Tam - you can add Bull’s Strength to your spellbook now as well).

Then Tam looks over Derrik’s list, and finds little he can help with, althought he can produce the 3 scrolls of Bull’s strength for him at half cost.

Finally, he looks at Mouser’s list. Then at Mouser. Then back at the list. Muttering under his breath, he gets to work. There are a few things on the list he just can’t make, so he does the best he can. In the end, he enchants +1 mithral shirt and after acquiring a scroll of spider climb and learning it, he makes the slippers.

The Dusty Rose Prism is beyond his abilities yet (CL12 needed), and the bugler’s buckler requires major creation. Neither is available in this town for purchase either. The amulet is also not something Tam can craft (needs Barkskin, not on his spell list), but it is available in town.

Sorry - it took a while to research all of these items….

Soooo unless you want to do it differently, in PF you don't actually need to meet all of the requirements. If you're missing a spell used to make an item, it just increases the Spellcraft DC. For most items, even if I'm taking 10 I can hit the DC for something even if I'm missing one or two spells. Additionally, the caster level is not a minimum requirement, it is simply the normal level at which such items are found.

Does creating a magic item require the creator to be of the same or higher caster level of the item itself? This doesn’t seem to square with the CLs listed for specific magic items; for instance, a belt of giant strength +2 has CL 8th, but the only spell required in its creation, bull’s strength, has a minimum caster level of 3.

Am I missing anything here?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level–it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can’t cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn’t meet the “able to cast 3rd-level spells” requirement.

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

This means that, for instance, I can make an amulet of natural armor +1 even though I can't cast barkskin; the Spellcraft DC is 5 (base) + 3 (minimum caster level) + 5 (don't have barkskin) = 13, which I automatically succeed.

OK, I'll accept the amulet based on this, especially since Derrik could provide the spell for you. The Dusty Rose Prism specifically calls out that the caster must be 12th level, and I don't think increasing DC by 5 is nearly sufficient to make up for missing 5 levels. If we want to say +5 DC for each missing level, I would probably allow that.

Not sure if this is helpful, but here's the Sean K. Reynolds answer on crafting level requirements. It looks like you just need to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10

I saw that - and that is fine for CL in general.

But for the Ioun stone, it isn't just a listed caster level - the requirements also specifically state creator must be 12th level.

Yep, the aforementioned amulet of natural armor is similar in that it has a level requirement of three times the + value, and those are presumably hard limits.

I saw that - and that is fine for CL in general.

But for the Ioun stone, it isn't just a listed caster level - the requirements also specifically state creator must be 12th level.

The CL for pearls of power is 17. It's a cheap magic item (as is the ioun stone I wanted, which is 500 gp). If we had to wait until level 17 to create a level 1 pearl of power, it's basically not craftable (or not worth it once we can).

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level–it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can’t cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn’t meet the “able to cast 3rd-level spells” requirement.

That said, I'm fine with whatever you decide.

Sorry, Mouser, I think you are missing the nuance of the issue here.

Pearl of Power has a not next to the CL 17 listing to see the construction requirements.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item; Special creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Cost 500 gp (1st), 2,000 gp (2nd), 4,500 gp (3rd), 8,000 gp (4th), 12,500 gp (5th), 18,000 gp (6th), 24,500 gp (7th), 32,000 gp (8th), 40,500 gp (9th), 35,000 gp (two spells)

Given that, Tam can create a pearl of power of level 4.

Now, compare that to the ioun stone entry.

Aura strong varied; CL 12th; Slot —; Price 5,000 gp; Weight —

DESCRIPTION
This stone grants the wearer a +1 insight bonus to AC.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item; Special creator must be 12th level; Cost 2,500 gp.

I bolded the text I was referring to. Since it has a special note to require 12th level, then I believe that should be held to.

The CL at the top sounds like the "typical" caster for a standard implementation of the item. In this case, they appear to be the same level (12).

As Tam pointed out, the amulet lists

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Feats Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Cost 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5)

So, at level 7, Tam can create a +1 or +2 right now. The CL will be 7, since Tam is level 7 and is creating it, regardless of if it is a +1 or +2.

Regarding the +5 DC for missing requirements, I think that can be read a few ways. Personally, I think it means that if you don't have the spells necessary, you can still do the work but need to use another person or process to succeed which makes it harder. I really don't feel a +5 is equivalent to blowing off a requirement like this. It may not be how the developers now claim it works, but even in those explanations I am not sure this is what they mean.

But I think we should move on. However, given this, I need to spend another hour or so recalculating everything because some of the items for Derrik that I assumed Tam couldn't make I am not so sure about now.

Sounds good--no worries. It was just a 500 gp item, so I'll just do something else. I may just add another enhancement to something Tam is already crafting for me.

Thanks!

I'm sorry for the extra workload. Thanks for bearing with us, DM.

OK, so I have 4 items for Mouser, and I changed my mind on the buckler because the requirements don't make sense, and it just isn't that high powered.

Rapier +1 for 1320
Slippers of Spider Climb for 1200
Mithral Shirt +1 for 1600
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 for 1000
+1 burgler's buckler for 2450

What was the 500 item? I am wondering if I have somehow misunderstood what you were looking for?

The only item that was not available due to cost or lack of local resources is the Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone) - 5000 (Tam can make at level 12 for 1/2)

This leaves you with 13k gold (not counting the extra 13k set aside for Tam later).

Cool?

That’s great, thanks!

The Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone) I wanted was the cracked version worth 500 gp.

I’ll just spend it later.

Ah, well in that case, you can get one here in town.

Nice! I think I'm covered on purchases, then (aside from maybe a couple mundane things to round out equipment).

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by "This leaves you with 13k gold (not counting the extra 13k set aside for Tam later)."

I thought I had 10,000 gp to spend--was it supposed to be 13k?

Sorry - that was the collective "you" - party cash is 13k. Both you and Derrik spent less than your "suggested allocation" of 10k. You (Mouser) have about 2500 left, and Derrik about 4k.

Okay, if I have about 2500 left, would anyone be opposed to my taking an extra 500 gp right now and having Tam enchant both my chain shirt and my buckler to +2?

Cost to enchant from +1 to +2 is 3000 gp, and since Tam can do it it would be 1500 gp each, or 3000 gp total.

That would help my AC quite a bit.

(Tam is super handy!)

I have 1k left after Tam building stuff for me

:D

Hopefully we have enough time for all of this! Every 1000 gp of enchanting = 1 day!

Yah - the signed you up for like a month or two of work!! But it’s ok - I’d rather you get equipped as you like before the next romp

So when are you ready to continue GM>?

I'm assuming that the "Belt of Oxen's Strength" is really a "belt of giant strength +2".

I'm all set now.

I'd like a bit of clarification on my Vital Strike feat. The text is:

When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

The way that I understand this is that on one attack per round I can double my damage dice. Currently Agrimmosh dmg is 2d6+7 so I think that with Vital Strike that would be 4d6+7. Is this correct?

yes it is just damage since it is basically adding the second attack.

I've made my purchases and am good to go.

I was still hoping I could get 500 gp extra value right now to get my chain shirt and buckler enchanted to +2 (I'm 500 short if someone can spot me).

I'm also glad to have the extra time to make/purchase everything, since us small folk have had a tough time in the land of giants finding anything that fits!

Noooo, Vital Strike is designed to allow you to make a single attack as an attack action. This way you can move and make one attack that does multiple dice of damage, since normally you would have to Full Attack, which prevents you from moving more than 5'. Vital Strike means when you make a single attack only - using the Attack action, NOT the Full Attack action - you get to add damage to the single strike.

Basically:
Attack action - This is a standard action. You can Move and then Attack. When you do this, you attack once.
Full Attack action - This is a full-round action. You can't Move if you do this; you can only 5' step. You get all of your iterative attacks.
Vital Strike feat - When you use the Attack action, above - which means you can Move and make one attack - you get extra damage as if you had hit twice.

Basically, the Vital Strike chain is a way for a fighter to be able to move and attack, but still get damage output as if they were moving and getting their iterative attacks. It just lumps all the damage into one hit, instead of taking multiple swings as a full-round action.

What Tamxander said.

Mouser, please spend more.

If there is money left at the end I would like to buy an Agile Breastplate just to move to medium armor i think. never mind I don't need it and I am sure something will drop.

Mouser, are you trying to make my life more complicated?? :)

I am going to allow a flat +1500 per item in this case, but the buckler you chose does not use standard pricing rules, and so just because I am allowing the upgrade in this case, it doesn't mean I will allow the same in general.

I am really having a hard time justifying the price tag on this shield anyway - I mean, it is handy to have a bunch of tools that you don't have to carry separate, but it doesn't seem that handy. Am I missing something re: the true value of this thing?

Ok - let's get you hunting giants again!

Hey all,

Big apologies, but the last few days have been way too busy for me to get on to post. I probably won't be able to catch up until Monday.

Hey all,

Summer continues to be way too busy with a couple of jam-packed work days before another trip through next weekend.

The bad news is I'll be out pretty much through next Tuesday. The good news is this should be the last break of summer!

GM do you want me to creature a Profile for Umlo and play him to help you out a bit in combat?

If you would like to do that, that would be great.

Can I use Unchained rogue instead?

Also I thought he had some armor? The Mithril Breastplate?

Unchained is fine. You can still buy armor if you like (retcon)

Did we lose people?

I dunno, what are we waiting on?

Me - last week was rough, and then I finally got free and the site was down...

I'm curious as to where we are with respect to the books. Are we still in book 2? Started book 3? Are we 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 into which book?

You are basically at the early stages of book 3.

This Friday my wife and I will be having our second daughter. My posting is going to be spotty, frankly this is also why it has been spotty. I am around and will post as much as I can.

So who wants the Hand? Derrik would use it as it will allow me to wield the long spear 1 handed with my shield still.

Be my guest.

I think I large size longbow would be silly so not for Somer. You or Balmir I would think. Now who is going to cut off the hand. :)

So who wants the Hand? Derrik would use it as it will allow me to wield the long spear 1 handed with my shield still.

After reading the description, I don't think the Hand works that way. It lets you use a larger-than-normal sized weapon without changing the handedness. So you could use a Large longspear in two hands, but it wouldn't turn a Medium longspear into a one-handed weapon, because a Medium longspear isn't a one-handed weapon normally. It would let you use a Large spear as a one-handed weapon. Basically you can use a Large version of a one-handed weapon that you would normally use - thereby getting a better damage die, but making it harder to find a magical version of the weapon (unless you have someone who can make it magical, like me!).

yes I see what you are saying now I miss understood how the weapon worked. It would be cool to have the hand still since I am the other melee guy who uses Str mainly.

Balmir could use it and the spear for sure but then he has all the artifacts and cool stuff but that is fine with me.

It would definitely still be cool for you! The tradeoff is that if you go to a Large spear you no longer have a reach weapon, but you do more damage. If you stick with a longspear you keep the reach but still can't use a shield.

If you want the best of both worlds, then next time we get a feat you should take Shield Brace! Then you could use a Large longspear and a shield! If you use a heavy darkwood shield, it has no armor check penalty and thus no penalty on your attack roll!

If you want to go that route, I'd see if the DM will let us use retraining next time we have a little downtime in a town to get Shield Focus instead of your Skill Focus (Knowledge - Religion). Then at 9th level take Shield Brace, or else swap Combat Advice for it.

I would have to Swap combat advice since I need the Skill focus for my Prestige class