Restoration


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Ok, let me start by saying that Restoration is hands down my favorite card in the entire game, I was hoping something like this would be made and was thrilled speechless when I saw it in the 4th adventure pack. It should probably be noted that I like Lini and Lem far and above all the other characters.

For those of you who don't know what it does, it's a divine spell that lets target player draw 2 cards and has a Divine 14 recharge. It cannot be played during an encounter.

Having once played several trading card games, I immediately began to try and see I could break the game with this. Let me say, it's a good thing that there aren't any cards that move you from one location to another during your turn that can recharge. If there were, I believe I have come up with a Lem build that can beat an entire scenario on its own in one turn. Of course, it would require careful setup of both the deck before the scenario and during play (setting up the turn). Assuming 4 skill feats in Charisma and 4 card feats in spells I come up with this.

Lem
-Restoration
-Restoration
-Haste
-[Theoretical move during your turn card, like Teleport that doesn't say end of turn]
-Glibness
-Glibness
-Lightning Bolt
-Aid
-Cat
-Necklace of Fireball [Or the weapon]
-[Optionally a weapon]

A cat and two Glibness with Divine/Arcane = Charisma +1 [+2] [+3] [+4] [+5] auto recharges anything with recharge 14 or less. Restorations give you anything you recharge right back. Haste grants infinte explores. Aid and the Virtuoso power let you help yourself with any check. Lightning Bolt is d10+3d6+11 and will pretty much kill anything. The Necklace or weapon help with dual combat checks. And between Lem's ability to swap a card with another of the same type from his discard at the start of the turn and to pick his card of choice, combined with the strength of Restoration's draw 2, setting this up during the scenarion is easy.

All I can say is it's a good thing that every card that moves a player does it at the end of the turn or gets buried. But this build can still close a location every turn, even with just the cards released.

Much as I love shenanigans, this IS an exploit, that should probably be fixed. Even if you don't do the optimal build I listed above, things can get pretty bonkers.

I suggest that Restoration should say that it goes in front of the player you cast it on until the end of the turn and you can only cast it on each player once per turn. Thoughts?


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Restorations give you anything you recharge right back.

How do you figure? Recharging puts it on the bottom of your deck. Restoration lets you draw cards from the top.


Eh, seems like a super specific setup. This isn't a TCG, so it's not like you can have a deck with whatever cards you want. It's a neat combo, just not something I see coming into play a lot.

It also assumes you aren't running into anything that requires something other than a charisma check.


csouth154 wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Restorations give you anything you recharge right back.
How do you figure? Recharging puts it on the bottom of your deck. Restoration lets you draw cards from the top.

But if you have no cards in your deck before you recharge the card...

Mechalibur wrote:
It also assumes you aren't running into anything that requires something other than a charisma check.

Any check, actually. Lem's Skill + 4d+2 + d6 is quite good.

Also, this can be done with Lini. I picked Lem at first because he can recharge Haste, but I was forgetting that Lini gets to recharge her animals, which she can use to explore. Swipe can replace Lightning Bolt, she can replace the Virtuoso ability with her reveal animal ability, and she has more flexibiltity with where her card feats go. Of course, she'd have to replace the Glibnesses with Belts of Incredible Wisdom (or whatever they're called), but the idea is the same.


So are you saying those are all of the cards you have left?

Without getting into breaking down how this would actually work more than you did (I think you'd have to lose at least one more card before being able to cycle all of those cards repeatedly) the obvious problem to me is anything that does damage.

Not combat damage but things like the Scout or the Enchanter or one of the many Henchmen/Villains that does before combat damage. Some of these things get a roll to avoid, but not all.. and even something like the Siren or the Slashing blade barrier could be problematic - sure you've got a 1d4+2 additional bonus (plus another d6 with the Aid) but that's still far from a guaranteed roll.

I'm guessing you've probably got a Cure sitting in your discard somewhere that Lem can swap back at the beginning of his next turn, but A) if that's really all of the cards you've got left in your deck you might die right then if you're forced to draw up at the end of turn and B) even if you are able to get back around to using the Cure, it's going to screw up the cycle because Cure doesn't let you choose what cards you get back. If you've only got 11 cards that are part of the system, that means you've got up to 7-8 other cards (depending on where we are in the adventure path) in your discard which means that unless you Cure back the exact cards you want, the whole thing falls apart.


Brainwave wrote:

So are you saying those are all of the cards you have left?

Without getting into breaking down how this would actually work more than you did (I think you'd have to lose at least one more card before being able to cycle all of those cards repeatedly) the obvious problem to me is anything that does damage.

Not combat damage but things like the Scout or the Enchanter or one of the many Henchmen/Villains that does before combat damage. Some of these things get a roll to avoid, but not all.. and even something like the Siren or the Slashing blade barrier could be problematic - sure you've got a 1d4+2 additional bonus (plus another d6 with the Aid) but that's still far from a guaranteed roll.

I'm guessing you've probably got a Cure sitting in your discard somewhere that Lem can swap back at the beginning of his next turn, but A) if that's really all of the cards you've got left in your deck you might die right then if you're forced to draw up at the end of turn and B) even if you are able to get back around to using the Cure, it's going to screw up the cycle because Cure doesn't let you choose what cards you get back. If you've only got 11 cards that are part of the system, that means you've got up to 7-8 other cards (depending on where we are in the adventure path) in your discard which means that unless you Cure back the exact cards you want, the whole thing falls apart.

That's a good point. My counter argument is pointing out that double, auto-recharging restoration pretty much means infinte hand. You could have staff of minor healing and, using double restoration, simply add your entire discard pile to your hand. Use Shalelu or an eagle to keep yourself from dying and you're good. How this would work:

0 cards in deck
Play staff of minor healing to recharge a random card
Recharge Staff of minor healing
Play eagle to look at the top card of a location deck, and add the eagle to the top of your deck
Play Restoration to draw the eagle and the random card
Auto recharge Restoration (There's now only the Staff and Restoration in your deck)
Play Restoration, drawing the staff and another restoration
Auto recharge Restoration (There's now only the Restoration in your deck)
Play the staff, recharging a random card
Recharge the staff
Play Restoration to draw the random card and the other Restoration
Auto recharge Restoration (There's now only the Staff and Restoration in your deck)
Rinse and repeat

Note that the eagle isn't even necessary, you can simply do this when you have 1 card in your deck.

Come to think of it, this combo that I just thought of makes things worse. Now you have blessings that you can use...


csouth154 wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Restorations give you anything you recharge right back.
How do you figure? Recharging puts it on the bottom of your deck. Restoration lets you draw cards from the top.

I am pretty sure he was talking about having a deck with almost no cards left in it.

If you have a deck with 1 card in it, then you can play any card that recharge's, such as the druid's ally to explore again. You now have a two card deck. Play a Restoration drawing the two cards, getting back the card you just played and recharging Restoration. You now have a 1 card deck. Recharge your ally again for a explore. Cast another Restoration drawing your first Restoration and your ally leaving you with a 1 card deck. Repeat as often as you like.

This seems ridiculously overpowered to me. Even if you take away the extra cards mentioned above, you can still get free explores until you fail to recharge. If you have a very good chance to recharge, then you can still abuse this extensively, probably becoming far more powerful they they intended with no changes to your deck other than just adding Restorations.

Fortunately the spells like strength have been errated to stay in front of you the whole turn, otherwise you could play strength infinite times each turn. As well as taking infinite explores.

As printed I look forward to playing this in my Kyra deck:
1) Start with one card in deck.
2) Play some strengths.
3) Explore.
4) Recharge blessing of serenrae to give me an extra die on the check. (2 cards in deck)
5) Recharge Restoration, drawing blessing of serenrae plus random card (probably another serenrae) (1 card in deck).
6) Recharge a blessing of serenrae to explore again (2 cards in deck).
7) Recharge a blessing of serenrae for +1 die on check (3 cards in deck).
8) Recharge Restoration, drawing Restoration and blessing of serenrae (2 cards in deck).
9) Recharge Restoration, drawing Restoration and blessing of serenrae (1 cards in deck).
10) Recharge blessing of serenrae to explore again.
11) Go to step 4, we are now back in the same station with 1 card in deck.

That gives me infinite explores, plus a blessing to use for a check on each of those explores. Starting with strengths also makes me quite powerful.

Now what are the problems with this? First it takes no unusual cards, I am already running blessing of serenrae for sure. And strength is a pretty good card as well, but isn't even necessary.

I do need to start with 1 card in my deck, but if you are trying to set up this scenario, that is easy to do. This also makes me dangerously low if I do take some unexpected damage and discard my whole hand. However than can be mitigated by having someone with a cure at your location. You'll always have 3 cards in your deck after an encounter so they shouldn't need to cure you a whole lot.

The biggest problem with this is ensuring those Restorations recharge. If you have wisdom maxed, that is a d12+6 to get a 14, which isn't very good. The poster above included all those extra cards to ensure the recharge. This could also be played with the druid, who can add a d4+2 to their recharge attempt, making them more likely to recharge, and their explores can come from recharging an ally. Their ally can also be a cat to help them even more with recharging (if I remember cat correctly). They cannot get the extra die each combat though.

So in summary, yes you can go infinite if you really try. However you can still abuse it greatly even if you don't try. Also, the card is still really good on its own, even without a small deck. Now I have not played with this card yet, but it seems to me that is probably overpowered by a good amount.


For me, this raises the question of when the recharge happens in relation to the resolution of the power. Does the "draw 2 cards" power on Restoration resolve before you would recharge it, or does it resolve after you recharge it?

This question applies more generally to a lot of cards, not just Restoration. I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before, but I can't seem to find anything about it in the rulebook or in the forums. Anyone know offhand what the answer is? Thanks.


quicksilver89 wrote:
So in summary, yes you can go infinite if you really try. However you can still abuse it greatly even if you don't try. Also, the card is still really good on its own, even without a small deck.

This exactly. Multiple Restorations per turn per character allows for some crazy shenanigans.


Oh god, I didn't even think about staff of minor healing, nice catch! Yes, that gives you back every card in your discard pile whenever you want. Oh my god. Miss that recharge on Restoration? No problem, just staff it back! That also gives you an ally, a blessing, and a spell to help you out each combat. This card seems so insane the more you think about it and realize more stupid things you can do.

It really looks like this card is going to need an errata. I haven't played with it yet, but the scenarios seem mind blowing.


QuantumNinja wrote:

For me, this raises the question of when the recharge happens in relation to the resolution of the power. Does the "draw 2 cards" power on Restoration resolve before you would recharge it, or does it resolve after you recharge it?

This question applies more generally to a lot of cards, not just Restoration. I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before, but I can't seem to find anything about it in the rulebook or in the forums. Anyone know offhand what the answer is? Thanks.

You recharge after applying the effect of the card. It's the last thing you do. However, you make the check AS you're playing the card, which would matter if you were, say, playing as Lini in combat and you're about to have to discard your hand due to damage.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
You recharge after applying the effect of the card. It's the last thing you do. However, you make the check AS you're playing the card, which would matter if you were, say, playing as Lini in combat and you're about to have to discard your hand due to damage.

Ok, thanks, that's kinda what I figured. The answer seems to have been in the rulebook all along, I just manged to forget about it:

pg 15 wrote:
Recharge: This explains circumstances under which you may recharge the card—put it on the bottom of your deck—after playing it.


gasoline into fire, but the Giant Badger ally will let you bury it to move to a different location.


Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
gasoline into fire, but the Giant Badger ally will let you bury it to move to a different location.

I know, and cape of escape can do the same thing more or less, but that's just one time each. If Teleport didn't say end of turn (or Haste, for that matter), then you could close an infinte number of locations in one turn after setting up for a few turns by just resetting your hand.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Assuming 4 skill feats in Charisma and 4 card feats in spells I come up with this.

Did Lem receive some sort of errata that increased his maximum number of spell card feats from 2 to 4?


Milo Windmoon wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Assuming 4 skill feats in Charisma and 4 card feats in spells I come up with this.
Did Lem receive some sort of errata that increased his maximum number of spell card feats from 2 to 4?

My bad, I don't have the cards in front of me.

But it's not a big deal, he could drop several things. The aid comes to mind, now that I've thought of the staff combo that'll net you all your cards into your hand (including blessings). For the same reason the haste could go. The hypothetical teleport spell doesn't exist, so it can go. The lightning Bolt isn't strictly necessary. Heck, you can have another player cast the glibnesses on you too.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Milo Windmoon wrote:
Did Lem receive some sort of errata that increased his maximum number of spell card feats from 2 to 4?
My bad, I don't have the cards in front of me.

Oh, all right. For a minute there, I thought I was missing out on being able to load more spells into my Lem decks. XD


Orbis Orboros wrote:
QuantumNinja wrote:

For me, this raises the question of when the recharge happens in relation to the resolution of the power. Does the "draw 2 cards" power on Restoration resolve before you would recharge it, or does it resolve after you recharge it?

This question applies more generally to a lot of cards, not just Restoration. I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before, but I can't seem to find anything about it in the rulebook or in the forums. Anyone know offhand what the answer is? Thanks.

You recharge after applying the effect of the card. It's the last thing you do. However, you make the check AS you're playing the card, which would matter if you were, say, playing as Lini in combat and you're about to have to discard your hand due to damage.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but you cannot play restoration during an encounter, so the damage comes first (and you lose restoration).


You'll never play restoration during an encounter, but with my proposed exploit, you'll never face an encounter without a bajillion hand cards.

Simply spend the first several turns resetting your hand ONLY until you have no deck and the desired hand. Then use the Staff of minor Healing trick to put your entire discard pile into your hand. Now you can afford to take damage. Then, after the encounter that dealt you damage, use the Staff exploit to get the damage back. Then explore again.


If this is really your strategy, then the the risk is being required to get a card from your deck and dying. So there would be a few monsters that would be your probable death. Ghoul Bat being probably chief among them. Enchanter would be an issue. I'm sure their are others as well.

So while that strategy might work for a while, eventually you will probably hit something makes you bury a couple of cards. And when it does, wouldn't you be dead?


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

If this is really your strategy, then the the risk is being required to get a card from your deck and dying. So there would be a few monsters that would be your probable death. Ghoul Bat being probably chief among them. Enchanter would be an issue. I'm sure their are others as well.

So while that strategy might work for a while, eventually you will probably hit something makes you bury a couple of cards. And when it does, wouldn't you be dead?

I don't recall Ghoul bat, what does it do?

Enchanter is covered in the staff of minor healing exploit.

I don't know of anything that makes you bury a card from your deck without failing a check first. The virtuoso ability, aid, and/or blessings should cover that. Not to mention other cards in your deck, like a sage, that could be added to your hand with the Staff exploit.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
eventually you will probably hit something makes you bury a couple of cards. And when it does, wouldn't you be dead?

You'll have a 15 card hand, which will give you tons of buffs, taking enough damage to go through that would probably be near impossible. Also you could have armors or armor like things. And even then you could be at the same location as someone else who could cure you. Seems very difficult to die.


Ya, I would also be concerned about doing this against monsters that have before or after encounter effects. onna the ones I really hate is the enchantress. 2 points of damage, neither of them combat, even if I win? ouch.

Also, I dunno if you would get to draw your whole discard pile back. I could definitely see there being a possible timing issue, and you would want to have multiple restorations in your deck (I dunno if there are two off the top of my head).


Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

Ya, I would also be concerned about doing this against monsters that have before or after encounter effects. onna the ones I really hate is the enchantress. 2 points of damage, neither of them combat, even if I win? ouch.

Also, I dunno if you would get to draw your whole discard pile back. I could definitely see there being a possible timing issue, and you would want to have multiple restorations in your deck (I dunno if there are two off the top of my head).

There are two, which is all you need. And between those and a single staff of minor healing, you can add your entire discard pile to your hand if you have exactly one card in your deck and can make all your Restoration recharge checks.


If you have 6 players, you will spend half the game discarding cards to get your hand size down to where this works. If you want to live on the edge, go for it, but I hardly think this breaks the game, and I doubt most will attempt this 'exploit.' Takes balls and luck.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

If this is really your strategy, then the the risk is being required to get a card from your deck and dying. So there would be a few monsters that would be your probable death. Ghoul Bat being probably chief among them. Enchanter would be an issue. I'm sure their are others as well.

So while that strategy might work for a while, eventually you will probably hit something makes you bury a couple of cards. And when it does, wouldn't you be dead?

I don't recall Ghoul bat, what does it do?

Enchanter is covered in the staff of minor healing exploit.

I don't know of anything that makes you bury a card from your deck without failing a check first. The virtuoso ability, aid, and/or blessings should cover that. Not to mention other cards in your deck, like a sage, that could be added to your hand with the Staff exploit.

Ghoul Bat wrote:
Check to Defeat Combat 17. Bury any card with the Magic trait played during this encounter, unless that card would be banished.

I don't really see this as game breaking. It might be possible, but there is no guarantee you will have acquired the necessary cards. And there are enough effects from locations and encounters that will put you at risk of death with a small character deck.


Bidmaron wrote:
If you have 6 players, you will spend half the game discarding cards to get your hand size down to where this works. If you want to live on the edge, go for it, but I hardly think this breaks the game, and I doubt most will attempt this 'exploit.' Takes balls and luck.

It's not meant for six players.

The game actually works best at 3 players in my opinion, it's certainly skewed at 6. Either way, just because it's poor when there are six players doesn't mean it's a good idea to leave around.

This can totally destroy a solo game. Even saying I spend ten turns setting it up, i then close a location a turn making 8 locations trivial in a solo game, shich should not happen.

And the combos go on forever. Eagle + auto-recharge Restoration means look at every card before you explore, for instance...

I'm honestly thinking about how my Lini has two Restorations... I may snag cat and a Staff of Minor Healing and stop aquiring cards to help myself explore. Wen my deck runs low, I simply esplode in a super turn until I fail to recharge Restoration, and then I just Mass Cure myself.


Ghoul Bat wrote:
Check to Defeat Combat 17. Bury any card with the Magic trait played during this encounter, unless that card would be banished.

That's interesting. But a non-magical weapon, Virtuoso ability, and blessing should get the job done. Or just evade it, assuming that he doesn't bury evade spells. If you fail to kill it because of a bad roll, well, take a few damage, shuffle it back in, and use the staff exploit again.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I don't really see this as game breaking. It might be possible, but there is no guarantee you will have acquired the necessary cards. And there are enough effects from locations and encounters that will put you at risk of death with a small character deck.

You don't see the potential, optimal deck as a problem, fine. But you can still do bonkers things just by having two restorations, a staff of minor healing, and a cure in your deck or a friend's. Then, if something does go drastically wrong, you have a nice hand to draw into. You may not be god, but you can still power through things like crazy with just a few cards.


Orbis Orboros wrote:
Ghoul Bat wrote:
Check to Defeat Combat 17. Bury any card with the Magic trait played during this encounter, unless that card would be banished.
That's interesting. But a non-magical weapon, Virtuoso ability, and blessing should get the job done. Or just evade it, assuming that he doesn't bury evade spells. If you fail to kill it because of a bad roll, well, take a few damage, shuffle it back in, and use the staff exploit again.

Since an Evade spell has the magic trait, you would have to bury that.


I thought you can only play one card of a specific type per turn for example you cant play levitate twice.


DevonOnline wrote:
I thought you can only play one card of a specific type per turn for example you cant play levitate twice.

Per check or step of an encounter; not per turn.


I agree the Staff/Restoration combo is pretty ridiculous. Now there are a few effects that cause you to draw/discard cards directly from your deck - those might be problematic since you'd only be wanting 1-2 cards in your deck at a time, but at least as of right now those effects are few and far between. Also, obviously anything that causes you to bury a card would take it out of the cycle.

It's also worth noting that you can't really get this combo going until fairly far in - you don't get the Lem self-use on his ability until AP4. Restoration was added in AP3 or AP4, not sure which.. so IF something were to pop up in AP5 that would invalidate this - a monster that causes you to draw/discard cards directly from your deck as a before the encounter effect or something - then you might run into some problems. And if the combo was only really good for AP4 then it's probably not worth too much concern. But... barring something like that, I agree it's a pretty crazy combo that isn't countered by much of anything currently in the game.


Orbis Orboros wrote:

Ok, let me start by saying that Restoration is hands down my favorite card in the entire game, I was hoping something like this would be made and was thrilled speechless when I saw it in the 4th adventure pack. It should probably be noted that I like Lini and Lem far and above all the other characters.

For those of you who don't know what it does, it's a divine spell that lets target player draw 2 cards and has a Divine 14 recharge. It cannot be played during an encounter.

Having once played several trading card games, I immediately began to try and see I could break the game with this. Let me say, it's a good thing that there aren't any cards that move you from one location to another during your turn that can recharge. If there were, I believe I have come up with a Lem build that can beat an entire scenario on its own in one turn. Of course, it would require careful setup of both the deck before the scenario and during play (setting up the turn). Assuming 4 skill feats in Charisma and 4 card feats in spells I come up with this.

Lem
-Restoration
-Restoration
-Haste
-[Theoretical move during your turn card, like Teleport that doesn't say end of turn]
-Glibness
-Glibness
-Lightning Bolt
-Aid
-Cat
-Necklace of Fireball [Or the weapon]
-[Optionally a weapon]

A cat and two Glibness with Divine/Arcane = Charisma +1 [+2] [+3] [+4] [+5] auto recharges anything with recharge 14 or less. Restorations give you anything you recharge right back. Haste grants infinte explores. Aid and the Virtuoso power let you help yourself with any check. Lightning Bolt is d10+3d6+11 and will pretty much kill anything. The Necklace or weapon help with dual combat checks. And between Lem's ability to swap a card with another of the same type from his discard at the start of the turn and to pick his card of choice, combined with the strength of Restoration's draw 2, setting this up during the scenarion is easy.

All I can say is it's a good thing that every card that moves a player does it...

Isn't there only 1 copy of the Glibness spell in the game?


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Isn't there only 1 copy of the Glibness spell in the game?

Now that you mention it, yeah, there's only 1 copy.


Brainwave wrote:

I agree the Staff/Restoration combo is pretty ridiculous. Now there are a few effects that cause you to draw/discard cards directly from your deck - those might be problematic since you'd only be wanting 1-2 cards in your deck at a time, but at least as of right now those effects are few and far between. Also, obviously anything that causes you to bury a card would take it out of the cycle.

It's also worth noting that you can't really get this combo going until fairly far in - you don't get the Lem self-use on his ability until AP4. Restoration was added in AP3 or AP4, not sure which.. so IF something were to pop up in AP5 that would invalidate this - a monster that causes you to draw/discard cards directly from your deck as a before the encounter effect or something - then you might run into some problems. And if the combo was only really good for AP4 then it's probably not worth too much concern. But... barring something like that, I agree it's a pretty crazy combo that isn't countered by much of anything currently in the game.

Restoration is AP 4. That's only halfway through the game. Also, the second scenario in AP 4 gives out spells like they're candy. It's not exactly impossible to find relatively quickly.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Isn't there only 1 copy of the Glibness spell in the game?

You're getting too hung up on the little details. Maybe that Lem build won't work at all. That's not the point. It doesn't mean that you can't do crazy dumb things with restoration.

Look at it this way. Play a standard spell-casting Lini build with a cat, eagle, staff of minor healing, a major cure and two restorations in it. All of that is very solid indeed, and I bet a lot of people have that in their Lini build, or would like to, with only the staff being unusual and it's a great card anyway. But now that Lini is almost impossible to kill. If she ever gets low on deck, suddenly, instead of being weaker, she becomes insanely powerful. You guys really don't see any issue with this?


I'm getting hung up on the details because I'm trying to actually test out what you are suggesting. Its easy to think something works in theory, but it might not work practically. The best way to find out is to try it. I don't play Lini. What would you suggest as a deck for her to use this strategy you suggested?


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I'm getting hung up on the details because I'm trying to actually test out what you are suggesting. Its easy to think something works in theory, but it might not work practically. The best way to find out is to try it. I don't play Lini. What would you suggest as a deck for her to use this strategy you suggested?

Here's a build based on feats gained after the end of AP4S1, the earliest time to reset your deck after acquiring two Restorations, and granting you precisely enough Power Feats to auto-recharge 14's.

Lini - Wild Warden
Wisdom + 3
Weapon Prof
Reveal for d4+4

Burning Mace +1 (Name? Any strength fire weapon will do)
Cat
Cat
Eagle
Bear (Not the tiger, you don't want to recharge)
Shalelu Andosana
Restoration
Restoration
Swipe
Swipe
Aid
Headband of Incredible Wisdom (Name?)
Staff of Minor Healing
Blessing of Abador
Blessing of Pharasma
Blessing of ??? (The AP 4 one that helps close locations)
Blessing of Gorum

That should do it, I only put the cards that I felt were necessary, so that there's still space to add something if I forgot. You need 5 cards in hand to do the combo: Cat, Headband, Restoration, Restoration, and Staff. If you can afford to wait until another power feat, this is as easy as resetting your hand every turn, drawing at least one card, until Shalelu is the only card in your deck. Then you use the Staff exploit I mentioned earlier. With 5 hand cards, you will need to explore using a cat so that it gets recharged, and AFTER that recharge Shalelu. Then reset your hand over and over, keeping the Restorations, Headband, and Staff in your hand until there are only two cards left in the deck. Reset one more time to draw the cat, and now you have the needed five cards for the staff exploit.

After the Staff exploit, you have your entire deck in your hand, sans one Restoration, which is the only card in your deck. Make an encounter. DO NOT RECHARGE ANY CARDS EXCEPT THE RESTORATIONS AND THE STAFF. Between encounters, get every card back with the staff exploit. Each encounter will have the option of a weapon or spell, usually a 2x blessing, and an aid, on top of Lini's d4+4 power. If you find the Ghoul bat, just punch it using Lini's d4+4 power, her discard to make strength a d10 power, the bear, and a blessing of Gorum. That's 3d10+3d4+4. If you lose, shuffle the ghoul back in, take damage from your massive hand, use the staff exploit, and continue on as normal.

Did I forget anything this time?


It seems elaborate, time consuming, requires specific cards, and not even that much more powerful than playing the game normally. On the while, I see no issues whatsoever with restoration.

I'd have to see a video of someone actually being able to acquire all the cards required, then pull off that combo in a scenario. Honestly, I just don't see it happening.


Mechalibur wrote:

It seems elaborate, time consuming, requires specific cards, and not even that much more powerful than playing the game normally. On the while, I see no issues whatsoever with restoration.

I'd have to see a video of someone actually being able to acquire all the cards required, then pull off that combo in a scenario. Honestly, I just don't see it happening.

It's only that way if you want it to be completely fool-proof. A standard Lini build with 2x restoration and staff of minor healing can still go nuts when they get to the last card in their deck at no penalty whatsoever in character design as those three cards are awesome.

Really, I think you guys just don't realize how powerful it is to be able to draw extra cards. Everyone can agree that extra hand size is powerful, right? Restoration lets you basically increase the hand size of any player and then it can recharge. Even without the combos that's good, and it's downright crazy when you get to the last few cards in your deck. I urge everyone to try using it when they get it, EVERY build will be better for having restorations (assuming it can afford the spell slots).

It also really limits the design space for future cards. Any other card that lets you draw becaomes super powerful when combined with Restoration. If you could have three restorations, or Ezren could cast Restoration, or anything like that, there is virtually no limit to what you could do. Want everyone in your party to draw their entire deck, including their discard pile? You can do that with another draw ability. And then cure them when they're done. This card is seriously going to be a problem if it's not one already.


In theory, perhaps. I think the actual reality will be a different story. Your trick requires a LOT of things to fall perfectly into place throughout the course of a campaign that, quite honestly, probably won't.


csouth154 wrote:
In theory, perhaps. I think the actual reality will be a different story. Your trick requires a LOT of things to fall perfectly into place throughout the course of a campaign that, quite honestly, probably won't.

You asked for the optimal build, and that's what I made. But with a tiny fraction of those cards you can do crazy things. It doesn't have to be an infinte loop to be so good as to require fixing.

Eh, I guess I will just wait. As players actually acquire their restorations I think they will come around to see what I'm saying. I guess this discussion will have to wai til then; as of now, it consists of "Guys, look what restoration could do - shouldn't we fix this?" and "Meh, it requires luck to acquire that stuff, so no biggie."

Personally, I think the potential itself is enough to warrant a fix of some kind.


I suppose I'll be more engaged with the issue if our group ever acquires Restoration. We got a Major Cure and a Mass Cure running The Black Tower, last session...so that was pretty nice. :)


I have a restoration in My Lini deck, but having the other cards available and the time to wait for that perfect combo is certainly not going to happen in this game.

I think its best use right now is helping out a character that doesn't have a weapon or spell at the beginning of their turn, so that they can explore in safety. (if they draw one in the two cards)


Orbis Orboros wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
In theory, perhaps. I think the actual reality will be a different story. Your trick requires a LOT of things to fall perfectly into place throughout the course of a campaign that, quite honestly, probably won't.
You asked for the optimal build, and that's what I made. But with a tiny fraction of those cards you can do crazy things. It doesn't have to be an infinte loop to be so good as to require fixing.

And I'll believe that when I see it. Sure Restoration is a nice card, but I don't think in practical play anything will come up that's widely more powerful than current options. Nothing requiring an errata, certainly.


I don't have it in front of me, but does "Sandpoint Under Seige" have a Power feat reward? If not, Lini can only get up to d4+3 on her animal ally reveal power by then. She also only has a 5 card hand limit. If you want to make that 6 after AP3, she's down to d4+2 on her reveal.

The major flaw in this, considering you somehow managed to acquire the three cards to pull this off, is in discarding your draw deck down. Every one of those five cards you listed has to stay in your hand until your draw deck is depleted. Also, each one of those cards takes up a spot for you to draw to make the deck smaller. At the least, you need the two Restorations and Staff of Minor Healing in your hand. That frees up two slots to draw and discard every turn to deplete your deck. Even then, you're literally "rolling the dice" when you start the exploit to recharge the Restorations using a d10+5. Long odds. Add in an animal ally, you get a d10+d4+7. More manageable, but not a sure thing, and now you're only cycling one card per turn when you get to your last animal ally.

There just aren't enough turns, except in a 1 or 2 character game to make this effective yet. A couple more power feats dumped into hand size and animal ally, along with the last Skill feat in Wisdom might make it viable at 3 or 4 character games.

-Edited after some more thought-


huskyskins wrote:
If you draw those three cards in your initial hand, you can only discard two cards per turn. It will take 7 turns to discard down to 0 cards left in your deck where you can begin the exploit.

Hmm, if there only some sort of card that could draw through your deck faster, then recharge to the bottom. Perhaps some sort of card that you are already playing in your deck. Some sort of restoration like card.

Also you don't just have to be sitting there the whole game discarding your hand and doing nothing to get to the combo. You could actually be using all those cards to explore and give blessings and whatnot like normal. The fact that restoration is a great card on it's own is what makes this problematic. You can build a great deck, that when it gets low, also says "I beat an entire location every turn".


huskyskins wrote:
I don't have it in front of me, but does "Sandpoint Under Seige" have a Power feat reward? If not, Lini can only get up to d4+3 on her animal ally reveal power by then.

AP4S1 gives you a power feat.

huskyskins wrote:

The major flaw in this, considering you somehow managed to acquire the three cards to pull this off, is in discarding your draw deck down. If you draw those three cards in your initial hand, you can only discard two cards per turn. It will take 7 turns to discard down to 0 cards left in your deck where you can begin the exploit. That's half your turns in a 2 character game, or around 70% of your turns in a 3 character game,and nearly all your turns in a 4 player game.

At best, they are the three bottom cards of your deck, and you only lose three turns discarding your deck down to 0. On average though, you lose 5 turns to empty your deck, leaving you with plenty of turns to close down a location per turn in up to a 4 character game (3 turns

So, I would conclude that this exploit is only currently effective for 1-3 character games, but will increase in effectiveness as you increase Lini's hand size to 6 or 7. IMO it's worth an errata limiting Restoration to once per turn.

It's true that the optimal exploit builds I listed are optimized for 1-2 player games. But they are so strong that they can solo an 8 location scenario with little trouble.

---

Also, I'd like to mention to those who think that acquiring all of these simultaneously is super difficult: in my main game with my friend where he's Ezrena and I'm Lini, I could have made the exploit deck almost exactly had I known about it. Having beaten up to and including AP4S2, myself or Ezren have acquired every one of those cards except the Bear, the mace, and Shalelu, none of which are strictly necessary. I dropped the staves and the cats and took +1 hand size for my first Role Card Feat, but I could literally be playing that almost exactly if I had planned on it. It's not that far from my preferred Lini build, anyway.


quicksilver89 wrote:
huskyskins wrote:
If you draw those three cards in your initial hand, you can only discard two cards per turn. It will take 7 turns to discard down to 0 cards left in your deck where you can begin the exploit.

Hmm, if there only some sort of card that could draw through your deck faster, then recharge to the bottom. Perhaps some sort of card that you are already playing in your deck. Some sort of restoration like card.

Also you don't just have to be sitting there the whole game discarding your hand and doing nothing to get to the combo. You could actually be using all those cards to explore and give blessings and whatnot like normal. The fact that restoration is a great card on it's own is what makes this problematic. You can build a great deck, that when it gets low, also says "I beat an entire location every turn".

You can't recharge it with nothing else in your hand. The auto-recharge requires 5+ cards for Lini, so no, it wouldn't be safe to use it before you could exploit it.


huskyskins wrote:
You can't recharge it with nothing else in your hand. The auto-recharge requires 5+ cards for Lini, so no, it wouldn't be safe to use it before you could exploit it.

False. You don't AUTO recharge it with nothing else in your hand. She can recharge it on a ten, lol.

But it's reasonable to assume that Lini would still have an animal. At that point she only needs a 6 on d10+d4 which is slightly better than average. It's also quite reasonable to say that the animal is one of her cats. Then you only need a 4 on d10+d4.

Regardless, the non-optimized deck would be made with you playing the Restorations and Staff before you ever get to the bottom of the deck, and if you have a cat, belt or no, you're probably recharging the Restorations. Then, when you finally do get down to the last few cards of your deck, the combo explodes until you fail to recharge, which is a only 3/40 chance if you have a cat in your hand. It's easy to combo it up and go nuts with those odds. you'll probably get a great hand before you finally fail to recharge, and then you can play your turn out, probably closing a location with ease. If you are running the headband, you can even get that back when you're doing you staff exploit and drop your odds of failing a recharge check from 3/40 to 0%.


With the whole exploit dependent on having the two Restorations and the Staff in your hand/deck, it is pretty ballsy to chance missing the recharge roll, and possibly losing it to your discard pile where there is no guarantee you will get it back with a Cure or the Staff.

I will concede that there may come a time when this combination will be OP. For now, it is highly dependent on multiple instances of luck, and only viable for a 1 or 2 character game.

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