No I wasn't trying out a concept, I didn't even know what the skald could do until I sat down to make Beltzer. I found the combo, thought about it and carefully went to find sources to back me up. I found many , many , many , many , many , many , many , many sources that say it works (ctrl-f skald or rage). With precedent sources that show that rage is anything with the rage word with the precedent set by the rage spell. Not to mention that it works with courageous weapon to, or are you going to rule that doesn't work too and make my options even more limited?
I assume you think it's just too powerful? Despite that is the whole focus of the character. I have other things too but I sacrificed class abilities and feats just to do it. Even then you can just kill the familiar or try to force it further away from me, calm it, bull rush it, grapple it, push me away from it, any status effects that cause it to stop moving, to immediately make me lose hp equal to my level and cut my healing in half?
The issue I'm having is you have found a single source that says no and the guy isn't even sure about it. That was even posted AFTER I made Bel, despite the use of this power for nearly a year now across the pf boards and in PFS. The only difference is I can get it at level 3 instead of 5 now since familiar folio allows me to sacrifice my class abilities instead of a feat to get a familiar. So honestly it is just upsetting that it is tarnishing hours of work and planning, and curbs my enthusiasm. As I don't really want to make a one trick pony hit stick with a couple of sub standard bard spells.
To put this in perspective, I have low AC, the 2nd lowest hit points in the party, don't do as much damage as the other frontliners, if I'm brought down for any reason my fast healing means nothing (until I get diehard but even then it might get me killed), I have a very limited spell pool because of it being a hybrid class (I can't use offensive spells effectively), Bel relies on a single song which will lock me out of the others, if you are worried about the fast healing being somehow powerful as the only good thing about the character options I have then I feel you're barking up the wrong tree.
Edit: Also the fast healing starts the round after I use the song, which takes a standard action. So I need 2 rounds of song to get my first fast healing 8 out and sacrifice a turn of attacking. Which is less than healing spells.
It's a neat trick, but there are so many ways to negate it (silence, fatigue, target the familiar) that I don't think it's overpowered or anything.
As for the marching order choices, I'm in front either way so I don't mind which order we pick. :-)
Personally I think fast healing 8 is overpowered for this level. Your run of the mill troll has regeneration 5 and that's CR 5. You can out heal a troll over a number of targets longer then an average encounter would likely last at level 3 with no way to bypass it. This is putting aside any combat benefits you grant with the fast healing. Which means one encounter is pretty much in the bag, maybe two depending.
As for all the ways to break that advantage. Do you really want encounters to take into account that advantage and class feature. Be targeted or have events worked against you in the name of balance. I sure would not and it would drain the fun for me.
All that being said, I go back to my first sentence. I think it's overpowered for our level. Come level 5 and upwards it will not be as big a deal nor will it keep up with the CR. I am sure when you built Beltzer, you did not expect to have two healers, one of which is a heavy. So my suggestion would be wait until level 5, as you said you could. It's a minor change and does not put a wall in front of your ability.
That's my 2c, just my opinion. The wizard is walking slowly away from the half orc, arms raised. With no pointy objects or provoking movements. xP
OK Beltzer
I've reviewed your other links, and I still agree with the link that I provided earlier. "While maintaining a raging song, you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides." At your level, that equates to Fast Healing 2, which increases with level to 4 at 8th and 6 at 16th. Bottomline, I feel that the Skald's Vigor feat is tied to the baseline power level that the song provides.
This is equivalent power level to the Inquisitor Healing judgment gaining fast healing 1 at 1st level, which increases by 1 point for every three inquisitor levels.
Your Amplified Rage feat still applies to your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution using your valet familiar, as would a Courageous weapon, but neither would affect the level of the fast healing.
Considering this ruling, you can rebuild Beltzer if you want. I would hate to see you quit this game due to my ruling but would understand. It would have been better if we had discussed this issue during Recruitment, but I'm glad it came now.
cheers
Even without amplified rage you do realise my rage song provides +2 OR the bonus of a class feature right? So it'll be +4 at the very least, the song does not provide a static number if other class features get into play. Further proof to this is the song can provide a grand total of zero if I choose not to use inspired rage, as all the feat says is raging song. So by your ruling following it then I would still be getting fast healing 2 as that's the number the song provides. Though if that's the way you want to rule fine, feels like you are just penalizing synergy between feats. I will have a think about remaking Beltzer at this point because there is no point in half my choices now. Though I tied in pretty much his whole backstory to his feat and ability choices so I'd be rewriting that too, if I think it's too much effort I'll just drop.
Even without amplified rage you do realise my rage song provides +2 OR the bonus of a class feature right? So it'll be +4 at the very least, the song does not provide a static number if other class features get into play. Though if that's the way you want to rule fine, feels like you are just penalizing synergy between feats. I will have a think about remaking Beltzer at this point because there is no point in half my choices now. Though I tied in pretty much his whole backstory to his feat and ability choices so I'd be rewriting that too, if I think it's too much effort I'll just drop.
Yes, I considered that, too. Bottomline, I feel that the Skald's Vigor feat is tied to the baseline power level that the song provides.
That second paragraph of Inspiring Rage merely allows you or an ally to use the best of your Rage bonuses with the benefit of not burning their own Rage rounds or incurring fatigue after the Rage song ends.
Personally, I think your build is viable as is. Beltzer has boatloads of rage rounds from his song and bloodrager that are both amplified by the familiar. With your song up, you are fighting with a 26 Strength and 23 Constitution at 3rd level! The only thing my ruling affects is your Fast Healing, which at 2 is still very good.
cheers
If I were to throw down which order I would likely be in, I would start with Varin's 1st. Given his whole protect the others style, he would be up in the front regardless of situation for the most part unless they were unsure of possibly being surrounded...then close to the middle. As this is a startling event, definitely up front.
Keep in mind, you don't have to just use 1 or 2. You can basically say, I would be in front line, I would be in middle, I would cover rear and we could easily adjust the marching order to fit after everyone chimed in whereabouts they would normally place their character.
I'd likely be first or second to be completely honest. I need to stay in the middle of the group in case I have to channel, plus it would help to keep close for my command and murderous command spells.
I don't see no reason not to go with Varin's first order. I'm ready to get going! There's orcs to shoot and giants to slay!
It's mostly at that point I'm not offering much as a skald until level 12, or level 7 maybe because of the offset in bloodrager. So there is little point in me being one at least the way I've built it, since the way it was going was a survivable support melee, which I can't do with fast healing 2. At AC 17 I'll be hit way too often for that fast healing to matter even in the slightest considering it takes a standard to activate. Skald's vigor with no bonus is worthless till level 11 skald for greater skald but anyway.
I'll just rebuild him as a bloodrager, since that's what he would've been left like anyway.
Two for Varin's first, two votes for his second. I say we go with whichever order get to 4 votes first, then get ambushed by some orcs!
Gm Jubal, could we possibly meet in the middle and let it work as Fast Heal 4 so we dont have to rebuild a cool character?
Beltzer, rebuild as you wish. Giving everyone that can hear you +2 Strength and Con AND almost doubling your potential rage rounds should be weighed against a rebuilt full Bloodrager. Just saying that it's not insignificant. I'm glad you're staying in the game. Let me know when you want me to review.
Everyone, the rules debate today consumed my allotted game time. Beltzer's rebuild will not delay the next encounter. I will get a Gameplay post up by tomorrow at the latest.
Please finalize your default marching order. It will be important but not for the next encounter. I just needed to know if anyone was more than a minute ahead of the others.
cheers
Alright....so Arlan you be up front of course. Wulfrum is a front liner as well, Varin also. Then we got Kel as a mid, Mohs as a Mid, and if I'm not mistaken...Nerak is back line, Elize is back line...Beltzer, you are adjusting so I'll let you place yourself when you figure it out.
My thoughts are
Arlan, Varin, Wulfrum Front (in that order)
Kel, Mohs Mid
Nerak and Elize Back
Beltzer wherever he sees himself after his rebuild. If he's front, Wulfrum would end up behind him in marching order.
Thoughts?
Is there any concern about something coming up behind us and chewing through our ranged specialist and mages?
I think we should have at least one melee capable character (with a good movement rate so he/she can reposition rapidly) in the back to guard against that possibility.
Just before I go off and actually plan the bloodrager properly this is about the damage it's got and what it's going to do come 4th level and up.
Attack: +10/+8, 2d6+15, 1d3+4. 13 Rounds of Rage per day.
Level 4
Attack: +12/+8, 2d6+18, 1d3+4
Level 5
Up to additional 3 attacks of +8, 1d4+11 (need to research a bit more on natural attacks but in that ball park.)
Losing a bunch of face and knowledge skills but by level 5 should reliably be doing in the rough region of 41 damage a round. With a few more tricks with share spell and bull's strength if I need to.
I just want to know if that's acceptable or am I going to have to go back to the drawing board again?
I wouldn't worry too much about it. We got a bigger party than usual, and noone strikes me as terribly optimised.
Beltzer. I don't mind the numbers. I mind the rules. If you want, validate the rules that get you to those numbers. If it's just Str, rage and power attack, go ahead.
At this point, I may double or triple the numbers in the encounters to keep things challenging depending on setting.
Im throwing my name down for Wulfrums line out. If we have the space to travel three abreast I think we should where we can.
Straight by numbers. Don't really want to be vetoed on interesting choices again so might as well get something to end combats earlier.
At this point, I may double or triple the numbers in the encounters to keep things challenging depending on setting.
That sounds great! Yeah, with us being 8-strong and 20 point buy, we should be able to handle a much higher degree of difficulty.
Beltzer, my two cents--if you optimize you can make a nasty Bloodrager, awesome class and fun to play, but we already have a lot of beef with me, Wulfrum, and Varin. The bigger the party, the better Rage Song is. And consider the other town defenders. You can buff them ALL with Rage Song, which is amazing both mechanically and story-wise!
I know it stinks to plan for FH 8 and only get 2, but I honestly think with all of the healing we have available that you should be fine with 2. It's obviously your character and your decision, but I think Beltzer as-is fits both the story and is a huge asset to the party. Rage Song alone is worth Skald vs Bloodrager, in my opinion. Throw on some other songs and spells and it's a lot of utility that we need.
I would agree with Arlan, but again it is your choice.
I don't know about increasing numbers overly much to deal with the party. Once long ago, a single half orc barbarian and some lackey fighters managed to nearly wipe out a party they out numbered by one with the same levels. All because the barbarian intimidated them all while his boys made use of flanking and tactics. PCs are often the weaker group in encounters, they live by being smarter and working better with each other. ;)
Concerning the marching order as I said. Perfect place would be in the middle, with someone between me and danger from any side. But if it's not practical for whatever reason, good in the back.
I don't know about increasing numbers overly much to deal with the party. Once long ago, a single half orc barbarian and some lackey fighters managed to nearly wipe out a party they out numbered by one with the same levels. All because the barbarian intimidated them all while his boys made use of flanking and tactics. PCs are often the weaker group in encounters, they live by being smarter and working better with each other. ;)
Concerning the marching order as I said. Perfect place would be in the middle, with someone between me and danger from any side. But if it's not practical for whatever reason, good in the back.
Well, APs as written are for 4 15-point buy characters. With 8 20-pointers with max HP, I think increased numbers are definitely in order.
Just need votes from Nerak and Beltzer:
Formation 1:
Arlan
Varin + Wulfrum
Bel + Kel
Nerak + Mohs
Elize
Formation 2:
Arlan
Varin + Kel
Bel + Mohs
Nerak + Wulfrum
Elize
Wulfrum’s suggestion (Formation 3):
Arlan, Varin, Wulfrum Front (in that order)
Kel, Mohs Mid
Nerak and Elize Back
Beltzer wherever he sees himself after his rebuild. If he's front, Wulfrum would end up behind him in marching order.
Votes:
Arlan—no preference
Mohs—wants second or third row, prefers Formation 2
Wulfrum—wants to be up front, Formation 3
Kel—wants to be towards the front, prefers Formation 2?
Lys—Formation 1
Varin—Formation 3
Beltzer?
Nerak?
Concerning the marching order as I said. Perfect place would be in the middle, with someone between me and danger from any side. But if it's not practical for whatever reason, good in the back.
^
Concerning the marching order as I said. Perfect place would be in the middle, with someone between me and danger from any side. But if it's not practical for whatever reason, good in the back.^
Whoops, sorry. Ok, so maybe a little bit up from where you're placed in all of the formations if possible, but no strong preference for one choice over the other?
Ok, on Roll 20 we reached a majority verdict.
Marching order!
Varin, Beltzer, Wulfrum Front
Kel, Mohs Mid
Nerak and Elize Back
Arlan rearguard
Hurrah!
So many threats in so little time
Everybody so intimidating.. these are our kinsmen! Even if they are a rabid mob at the moment.
When people form a lynch mob instead of manning their posts, Arlan's niceties go out the window :-)
Speaking of all the intimidating, mechanically--should we use Kel's roll and all the subsequent are AA attempts? She has the highest bonus.
Well, Mechanically speaking. You would probably use her roll for the mob, mine for the ring-leader...and I have no clue on the rest. You guys targeted the mob, I'm be knock some knees backwards :P
Beltzer, my aid another must go to you. As a party, we might try to lead with diplomacy in the future; these people are our friends and family after all.
Mobs form when sense flies out the window and Diplomacy requires sense. I dunno, Diplomacy mixed with fear is probably good.
Aye. Just thinking of initial reactions that are in character. After all, Keltza is a half-orc woman just like the person being targetted. She takes this especially personally and is just hot-headed at the moment.
Beltzer, my aid another must go to you. As a party we might try to lead with diplomacy in the future; these people are our friends and family after all.
If in RL my family and friends were trying to lynch someone, I would not be diplomatic. I would have strong words because they should know better. And Arlan is much more hot-headed than i am.
Well, Bel will be good cop.. and Kel will be bad cop. Just pick who you want to aid? :D
I think the whole good touch, bad touch might work. After all, some people will likely back off because of the 8 heavily intimidating people, while others would back off because they also hear reason.
I don't know. I wouldn't threaten to kneecap by wife or friends from the theatre, but different reactions from different folks.
All this is fine. Remember the mechanical differences between Intimidate and Diplomacy. Intimidate turns people to Friendly for about an hour, then those same people turn Unfriendly toward you, representing the social repercussions of your words.
cheers
Heh, I already assume that Wulfrum has a reputation with the town for not being a nice person...well except the kids might think he is kind hearted...or the townsfolk might think he is well intentioned just an ass.
Aye. Those people are likely to defend the town though. They personally may not like Keltza, but the job is done. She might want to have a speech later on to repair the damage, and explain why she was so harsh.
I don't know. I wouldn't threaten to kneecap by wife or friends from the theatre, but different reactions from different folks.
Well, that's not what I said but, regardless, this is different. This is war and these people are abandoning their posts to try to kill one of their own. That is cause for strong action. Wulfrum, youre a marine. What are the penalties for desertion and murder of a fellow soldier during a battle? Im assuming not just a stern talking to.
Lol, it's pretty easy. Death by firing squad.
I don't know. I wouldn't threaten to kneecap by wife or friends from the theatre, but different reactions from different folks.Well, that's not what I said but, regardless, this is different. This is war and these people are abandoning their posts to try to kill one of their own. That is cause for strong action. Wulfrum, youre a marine. What are the penalties for desertion and murder of a fellow soldier during a battle? Im assuming not just a stern talking to.
Not you, but Wulfrum made that threat to the ringleader.
I would be wary though of holding everyone to the standards of marines. In any event, we have success.
Tis very true and all that. But yea, Wulfrum isn't that nice but I wouldn't consider what they were doing as a very lawful or good act. And coming to the defense of a woman in such a situation...I may have gone a little chaotic on that but it was still with good intentions I believe.
I come back from lunch and BOOM!
The post blew up. xP
P.S. Intimidate has no lasting effects besides bad ones. That is why I never use it first if at all unless it's against an enemy. Diplomacy on the other hand has lasting effects and can even turn a enemy into a ally. So it's my go to social skill. Bluff is sort of the middle ground and in my mind the most flexible if your creative with wordplay.
I would normally not be for intimidation but I felt this was the proper character to really only have it as a skill. I may occasionally try diplomacy untrained but that just shows how terrible he really is at being nice.