End Of Discussions: An epic fight between martials and casters

Game Master ElMustacho

Opened.

AAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggg ghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Something wrong?

;)

EDIT: Oh, also, don't forget to talk some smack here in Discussion. Gotta talk smack.

Something wrong? You mean besides the fact that Terylin lost initiative and can't see her opponent?

Nooooooo! What could be wrong?!

I'll talk smack when I sever Ahrena's precious head from his (?) body, and not a moment before. As it sits right now, I'm just waiting for the thunder I called down to go boom.

*listens for the thunder*

*hears crickets*

I think we should give some serious discussion to using some, or all, of the performance combat rules for future bouts. Since none of them are restricted to CRB only. Some of them look pretty fun.

What are you doin', shootin' the breeze in Discussion when we're waiting on you in Gameplay? You runnin' from yer fate?

I didn't know it was my turn? Kind of hard to, when everything is written in a spoiler. I was waiting for the GM to tell me it's my turn. :O

Oh, I assumed that was what was in the spoiler he addressed to you. Maybe I'm just eager. >:)

Sorry, I stepped away, and missed that there was a spoiler aimed at Terylinlara.

Edit: Pretty soon I'm going to have to "quit for the day" anyway, as real life stuff will take up the bulk of my evening. So I'll rest uneasily knowing Terylinlara will likely be getting pummeled with magic for seven or eight rounds before her opponent is even visible. I really wish there was such a thing as a potion of see invisibility. You'd better believe in the higher level bouts, I'm going to make sure any martials I play, have some kind of wondrous item that allows them to see invisible creatures.

You've got to be freaking kidding me.

I'm out for tonight, I'll jump back online tomorrow morning. Have fun blasting Terylin with all kinds of magic. Not only does the system dislike martials, it appears my dice do too!

*titters*

I'm online and ready whenever CMDDM and Jiggy are. :)

I've decided, the dice hate me.

Edit: Apparently I can't roll above a 7.

Would it make you feel better or worse to know that it wouldn't even matter?

Would it make you feel better or worse to know that it wouldn't even matter?

Oh I figured I'd have to roll a nat 20 just even get a hint of the location. Right now I'm just hoping to hold out until your Greater Invis, wears off. If that's even possible. More than likely Teryl will die curled up in a little ball, sucking her thumb, calling for the gods to sunder all magic from the universe.

:)

Crap, I forgot that total defense is a standard. That's where my action economy got messed up. I'll just use the potion swallowing as her standard action next round, to balance it out. Sorry about that.

Edit: That is the only action that's over economy as far as I can tell.

The perception check was reactive, and therefore not an action, as far as I know. Drawing the bow is part of the move because BAB +1 allows it. Notching an arrow is free (or is it immediate), talking is free, and total defense is standard, correct? So besides swallowing that potion, I'm within action economy limits there, aren't I?

I believe so, yes.

Also, got something special for you this round. Hope you like it. :)

I believe so, yes.

Also, got something special for you this round. Hope you like it. :)

Yeah, like there's any chance of that. :P

Edit:Percent Chance I'll like what Ahrena throws out: 1d100 ⇒ 10

Edit2: Oh sure!!! Now the dice cooperate?!

Heh, you martials and your "dice". ;)

It should be noted that if Terylinlara rolls enough to beat the Stealth check by 20, ignoring invisibility, she automatically pinpoints his opponents by hearing rules. It's possible but unlikely.

I really wish there was such a thing as a potion of see invisibility.

Why can't you have a potion of see invisibility? It's less than a 3rd level spell, and it has a casting time of less than a minute. I feel like I'm missing something obvious.

It's a personal spell, so no making potions of it.

It's a personal spell, so no making potions of it.

This! I didn't realize that until I tried to make one in Hero Lab, but that's it. The language becomes very important:

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.

Emphasis mine. That last bit becomes a SERIOUS part of the rules. If a spell doesn't target a creature or object, you can't turn it into a potion. So any spell with a range of personal, and a target of "you" is not allowed to be made into a potion.

Obviously I'd like to get that rule changed. Just think about how this fight could have been different if the first potion Terylinlara swallowed in the prep rounds was See Invisibility? I'm honestly not even sure what the rationale is for having that rule. It might just be one of those legend rules ported over from 3.5 without any thought.

Cwethan wrote:

It's a personal spell, so no making potions of it.

This! I didn't realize that until I tried to make one in Hero Lab, but that's it. The language becomes very important:

d20pfsrd.com - potions wrote:

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.

Emphasis mine. That last bit becomes a SERIOUS part of the rules. If a spell doesn't target a creature or object, you can't turn it into a potion. So any spell with a range of personal, and a target of "you" is not allowed to be made into a potion.

Obviously I'd like to get that rule changed. Just think about how this fight could have been different if the first potion Terylinlara swallowed in the prep rounds was See Invisibility? I'm honestly not even sure what the rationale is for having that rule. It might just be one of those legend rules ported over from 3.5 without any thought.

Huh. I didn't know it worked that way. I always thought "you" counted as "one or more creatures". Well, you learn something new everyday.

It's from the Magic Item Creation section, actually.

Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Meanwhile, those of us in combats with less source restrictions can simply use Elixirs of Spirit Sight.

Note to self. Make SURE you can see invisibility and have defenses against grappling >.>
Edit: also, a free tidbit for all you others out there, You can use UMD to gain benefits from scrolls, such as See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Vanish, or freedom of movement. Just a thought :)

Note to self. Make SURE you can see invisibility and have defenses against grappling >.>

Edit: also, a free tidbit for all you others out there, You can use UMD to gain benefits from scrolls, such as See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Vanish, or freedom of movement. Just a thought :)

Right, I get that, but that just proves the whole "the game is for casters" argument all the more. If a martial maxes UMD to get magic, it proves that past a certain point the game REQUIRES you to have magic. Obviously that was one of the points of this arena. To offer up some regulated game proof that magic, as the rules are written, IS the game, and the game cannot be properly played, at least from certain levels on up, without it. If you come into the arena with maxed out UMD, you might as well just concede the point right there.

Edit: I have to be honest and say that for this match, I even felt like potions were a kind of "cheating," but Terylin would have had zero chance without them. Of course, as it is, she appears to have had zero chance even with them.

If UMD and potions go against the spirit of the arena, then the character I've prepared has ripped the spirit of the arena into pieces and stomped on them with glee. I've looked at this as less of a competition between styles of combat and more of a competition between characters of different classes. As such, I have had no qualms about preparing whatever magic or non-magic tactics I feel would work the best. Honestly, this arena is more of an optimization contest than anything else.

Of course you need magic after certain level. Playing Pathfinder implies that you'll eventually find something magic in your adventure, or else you should play with another system. The problem is that people complain that spellcasting is unbalanced. While this arena compares options between martial and casters while fighting each other (when they are fighting together you should run an AP to compare differences), it's up to the players to make the game funny for everyone. And for the UMD discussion, if casters didn't pump perception, which is a mundane thing, they would have a bad time surviving ambushes.

And for the UMD discussion, if casters didn't pump perception, which is a mundane thing, they would have a bad time surviving ambushes.

Or be diviner wizards and always get an action in the surprise round even if they roll a 0 for Perception.

If UMD and potions go against the spirit of the arena, then the character I've prepared has ripped the spirit of the arena into pieces and stomped on them with glee. I've looked at this as less of a competition between styles of combat and more of a competition between characters of different classes. As such, I have had no qualms about preparing whatever magic or non-magic tactics I feel would work the best. Honestly, this arena is more of an optimization contest than anything else.

I don't think there is a spirit of this arena other than, does the character I built survive. I think we've already done a good job just with my short match with Jiggy showing that the game is run by magic, and every martial is just a squirrel trying to find his magic nut, or the bodyguard of the guy/gal slinging spells.

So, yeah, UMD away. Maybe we should change the name of the game to Magicfinder!!! Eh?!

Well, if you can stick enough magic on your martial then you're still proved something.

Hey MendedWall, why didn't you use a Shielding Brooch?

Hey MendedWall, why didn't you use a Shielding Brooch?

Well, it's not like he knew ahead of time he would be attacked by magic missiles. And let's be honest, all it would have done is delay the inevitable. Or more likely, quicken the inevitable, because Arhena would probably have switched to more drastic tactics.

Maybe we should change the name of the game to Magicfinder!!! Eh?!

I think it's no coincidence that the game is named Pathfinder and the core rulebook has a 6th level spell called find the path.

Well, if you can stick enough magic on your martial then you're still proved something.

Hey MendedWall, why didn't you use a Shielding Brooch?

Sure now you tell me!

Honestly I never even planned for magic missiles which was dumb on my part. I should have known Jiggy was going to try and defeat me with the most "mundane" of spells, just to prove the point that magic is superior in every way to martialness. Ah well, point proven. I spent all my creation energy worried about things like fireballs, and scorching rays, so I was trying to jack up my touch armor class, and reflex saves. In addition I was trying to give her the best possible chance to win the initiative. Of course, rolling a 3 for init ruined that like sharts ruin underwear.

All right on to the next round of bouts!!! What's next level 8's?

Edit: The registration sheet shows characters all over the board at 4th level: PRD, PFS, CRB. We need to tighten it up and match up levels and modes!!! On the plus side it looks like we have two level 8 PFS martials, and two level 8 PFS casters...

Well, now that I've officially won, I can really drop the bomb:

In response to the common assertions that C/MD is merely the result of "magic marts" or GMs being too liberal with access to new spells, I decided to secretly place some extra restrictions on myself. First, the only spells in my spellbook are those gained from leveling up, so that even if the GM is a dick and in 7 levels you never find a single new scroll and never encounter a single settlement where a new spell could be found for scribing and never loot a spellbook with a new spell, you can still do what I did. Second, I crafted all my magic items myself, so that even if the GM never drops any wizard-relevant loot and doesn't have any "magic marts", you can still do what I did.

Additionally, in response to common assertions that C/MD is only a result of there not being enough encounters in a day so that spellcasters are able to "nova" too reliably, I further restricted myself by needing to be as resource-efficient as possible. Of all my daily spell volume (by spell levels per day), I used only 9 out of 41 levels' worth of spells, and consumed 262.5gp worth of consumables. That's about 22% of my daily resources, and about 1% of my WBL. And that's for soloing an encounter with a CR something like 1-2 over my "APL".

Furthermore, continuing in accordance with this idea of a reasonable wizard build, I didn't even build for this fight. If you check out my profile, I actually built very generically, even going so far as to learn and prep spells (and scribe scrolls) that have no relevance to this fight whatsoever (like endure elements or comprehend languages).

So, to sum up:
A generic and well-rounded wizard,
Who did not have spell availability catered to him,
And who did not have access to magic-marts,
And who only spent a hair more than a fifth of his daily resources,
Was able to easily solo a CR=level encounter that was specifically built to try and kill the wizard.

And combat is only like 20% of the C/MD.

Honestly I never even planned for magic missiles which was dumb on my part. I should have known Jiggy was going to try and defeat me with the most "mundane" of spells, just to prove the point that magic is superior in every way to martialness. Ah well, point proven. I spent all my creation energy worried about things like fireballs, and scorching rays, so I was trying to jack up my touch armor class, and reflex saves. In addition I was trying to give her the best possible chance to win the initiative. Of course, rolling a 3 for init ruined that like sharts ruin underwear.

The bonded wand was almost gonna be scorching ray, but magic missile was cheaper and wouldn't be screwed by fire resistance or a high touch AC, so that became Plan A.

If you had a brooch of shielding (which I wondered if you might), then I had some nice little necklace of fireballs beads to blow you up with (tucked safely in an extradimensional space in case you had the same thing).

And if you had managed to blow my invisibility somehow (like with dust of appearance or something) or if you had both a brooch of shielding and resistance to fire, then I had a couple shots of hold person plus a x4 crit weapon to CdG you with.

And just in case I needed to slow down an assault while working on any of that, I had a couple shots of grease to wreck your ability to handle your weapons.

You really had no chance.

Priase the ever darkening putrid ones!

Though the praise is received the only response is eternal apathy.

Well, now that I've officially won, I can really drop the bomb:

In response to the common assertions that C/MD is merely the result of "magic marts" or GMs being too liberal with access to new spells, I decided to secretly place some extra restrictions on myself. First, the only spells in my spellbook are those gained from leveling up, so that even if the GM is a dick and in 7 levels you never find a single new scroll and never encounter a single settlement where a new spell could be found for scribing and never loot a spellbook with a new spell, you can still do what I did. Second, I crafted all my magic items myself, so that even if the GM never drops any wizard-relevant loot and doesn't have any "magic marts", you can still do what I did.

Additionally, in response to common assertions that C/MD is only a result of there not being enough encounters in a day so that spellcasters are able to "nova" too reliably, I further restricted myself by needing to be as resource-efficient as possible. Of all my daily spell volume (by spell levels per day), I used only 9 out of 41 levels' worth of spells, and consumed 262.5gp worth of consumables. That's about 22% of my daily resources, and about 1% of my WBL. And that's for soloing an encounter with a CR something like 1-2 over my "APL".

Furthermore, continuing in accordance with this idea of a reasonable wizard build, I didn't even build for this fight. If you check out my profile, I actually built very generically, even going so far as to learn and prep spells (and scribe scrolls) that have no relevance to this fight whatsoever (like endure elements or comprehend languages).

So, to sum up:
A generic and well-rounded wizard,
Who did not have spell availability catered to him,
And who did not have access to magic-marts,
And who only spent a hair more than a fifth of his daily resources,
Was able to easily solo a CR=level encounter that was specifically built to try and kill the wizard.

And combat is only 20% of the C/MD.

And you didn't think the arena would prove anything. XD

Good show Jiggy. Seriously. It was fun, and I do think we may have actually proved something, to somebody, somewhere. :) You gonna join in any of the other bouts?

Dude, so I just now looked, since the match is over. I cannot believe you rolled a 14 for initiative, and Terylin rolled an effing 3. I really can't, I think the dice are trying to help prove you right. Honestly, that would have been a completely different fight had Terylin won init. She would have used her knowledge of where you were teleported in to run (since she was hasted so she could run the full 60') and throw her dust of appearance. Then you would have been taking AoOs for casting spells or moving out of her threatened square, and couldn't five foot step away from her because she had step up. I think part of what was just proven is that one unlucky roll of the dice can seriously mess with your day.

You mean "Rocket Tag"? ;)

Of course, I could just walk away and eat the AoO, then hold person you with a DC 20 Will save. Then CdG you. I had about as much HP as you did.

I am of the opinion that the longer we continue the arena for, the more interesting the fights will get. This is because we just watched Jiggy crush MendedWall. Now we know how he did it. Counter strategies are already being mentioned. In a few more fights, the casters will start running out of new tricks/gimmicks, and the martials might start catching up.

And before you say it, I said catching up. Not winning, catching up. Maybe getting a hit or two in.

Well done, Jiggy.

So, who else is excited for the next fight? I believe we have four 8th level PFS-legal characters ready for combat.

CMDDM, would you like us to PM you our characters at this point? And should we include our three rounds of preparation?

One more thing - I was assuming that mounts/familiars/summons/etc. would start adjacent to or in the same square as the character that brought them. Is that how you'd like to run it, or did you have something else in mind?

Feel free to pm me the builds. Also, companions starts on their master's square where applicable, otherwise they start adjacent but not in front of their master.

I'll have the leveled up Terylinlara ready by late this afternoon. I'm going to tweak her equipment just a titch. Shielding brooch anyone? I'll PM the leveled up build to you CMDDM. I know story doesn't matter too much in this arena, but I'd like to play the narrative as though Terylin was teleported out and healed to fight another day...? Sound good?

Also @Jiggy, eating the AoO would have been fine, but I took improved trip for a reason. Replace that AoO attack with a trip with a +12 base (meaning I only had to roll a 2 or better to knock you prone), and then we've got ourselves a ball game. Not to mention the fact that Terylin had a net ready to snag Ahrena should he try and fly away. :) Like I said, my whole strategy was basically dependent on winning initiative. I'm not joking when I say that after I saw that 3 come up for the d20 roll, I let out an exasperated sigh. I knew it was over right there. I don't know that Terylin would have won, but I know it would have been a much more contentious fight.

All of which just serves to excite me all the more for the next bout!

Also @Jiggy, eating the AoO would have been fine, but I took improved trip for a reason. Replace that AoO attack with a trip with a +12 base (meaning I only had to roll a 2 or better to knock you prone), and then we've got ourselves a ball game.

Even better. My ability to cast spells is completely unhindered by being prone, I don't care about the -4 AC because you hit on a 2 anyway, and now I'm still at full HP.

MendedWall12 wrote:

Also @Jiggy, eating the AoO would have been fine, but I took improved trip for a reason. Replace that AoO attack with a trip with a +12 base (meaning I only had to roll a 2 or better to knock you prone), and then we've got ourselves a ball game.

Even better. My ability to cast spells is completely unhindered by being prone, I don't care about the -4 AC because you hit on a 2 anyway, and now I'm still at full HP.

At that point it basically comes down to dice again, and whether or not she would have made that will save. XD You fighters and your dice! :P Also now you're making me want to switch out one of her feats for Combat Reflexes to get multiple AoOs. :)

Not a bad idea; since casters don't need full-round actions, "pre-provoking" with a move action is a good way to make sure your spell goes off. Combat Reflexes (combined with Trip so they don't get out of range) is a good option.

Assuming the caster is on the ground, of course.

But yeah, had you won initiative, you'd have at least forced me to involve dice in the battle, thus granting you a theoretical possibility of victory.

The above sentence made me feel really sad to write.

Not a bad idea; since casters don't need full-round actions, "pre-provoking" with a move action is a good way to make sure your spell goes off. Combat Reflexes (combined with Trip so they don't get out of range) is a good option.

Assuming the caster is on the ground, of course.

But yeah, had you won initiative, you'd have at least forced me to involve dice in the battle, thus granting you a theoretical possibility of victory.

The above sentence made me feel really sad to write.

What?! You're saying that it is theoretically possible for a well built martial (using a morass of magical items including spell-consumables) to actually have a chance against a caster!!!???

I don't believe it.