Deepwater Rising

Game Master Winterwalker

Thread for Discussion.

Moving here because its less cluttered than Recruitment (hope that's ok) but here are the general concepts I have so far I'm struggling to choose from

- A Monkey Goblin Paladin. This one is least optimized but I've always thought it would be fun to have a Goblin Paladin. I'd imagine them climbing up to be the lookout from the crows nest, etc. Would probably take the Virtuoso Bravo or Holy Guide (for favored terrain~ water) archetype.

- A Dragon Blooded sorcerer -> Dragon Disciple Blaster/Switchhitter(Race undecided, but likely something that gives a bonus to Cha), with a focus on either Bronze or Brine dragon for the aquatic flavor

- An Unchained (Scaled Fist) Monk. Gnoll would probably be the race, and for the aquatic theme tie-in I'd go for one of the new fighting styles from aquatic adventures or blood of the sea. Would also pick up the water sprint ki-power at level 6

Here's my array:

STR: 15
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 9
WIS: 12
CHR: 22 (4)

What are people's thoughts on those options, and how might they fit in with the party composition we have?

Good call!

Here's my array:

Str 16
Dex 11
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 15
Cha 16

For my mounted idea, I'm actually looking at bloodrager with the bloodrider and primalist archetypes. Primalist so I can take the Ferocious Beast line of rage powers. If I go this route, I will go either merfolk or gillman.

I still like this statline for a cleric also. If Jing ends up going warpriest or something else non-cleric I will look at this more.

I could also switch up my stats since we have so many high Cha characters already and play a slayer or other straight melee guy.

Basically I think i'm probably the highest Str character (other than Umbungo possibly?) so I'm trying to work around that.

@ambnz I think the scaled fist looks pretty cool personally. But we might be short on arcane casting so sorceror could be good also.

I think bloodrager-bloodrider/primalist would be really cool!

Make sure to double check with @Winterwalker first though, recruitment thread says we needed to ask for permission for anything not on the core, base, or alternate class lists (I know Occult classes were already called out but I don't remember reading anything one way or the other for Hybrid classes)

Thanks for the feedback on the classes. I think I'm going to wait to see how it goes and whether we end up with needing more frontliners or casters. Either way I'm sure it'll be a blast to play!

I think I'm planning on playing a Summoner (aasimar) with the Spirit Summoner archetype- probably taking the Heavens spirit? Winterwalker said that if we had no 18+ stats it'd be fine to rearrange them.

The eidolon will probably be a more 'scout-y' type of Eidolon, looking like some gross sea creature fusion. Though that will probably help to cover the frontliner role, it obviously won't be as good at tanking, and she won't be able to use the summon monster SpA's to actually do anything if the eidolon drops.

Oh yeah I forgot about those class restrictions. I don't remember seeing a ruling on hybrid classes either. Well it's up to the GM.

That would affect going slayer as well.

@189birds, were Aasimar allowed as a race?

From the recruitment thread, @Winterwalker said

"If you're going off the other races list on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/, keep the racial points to a max of 10."

which would seem to knock out aasimar as a race option if you didn't get express permission.

Oh, I must've missed that. Welp, I'll change that up then :)

Grauk is a Lizardfolk Oracle with the Waves Mystery and the Tongues Curse. I was really interested in possibly taking the Deep One Curse but it might have been a bit annoying for Winterwalker.

For the moment angling for defense and utility spell wise.
Orisons: Light, Purify Food and Drink, Guidance, Detect Magic
1st-Air Bubble, Cure Light Wounds, Shield of Faith

Although his Con of 11 after racial isn't that amazing he's got an impressive strength of 17 after racial modifiers and a bite and two claw attacks so is pretty vicious once he closes. If I had gone Paladin it would have been terrifying using smite evil with his natural weapons but Oracle will sit better with me and a solid healer will be good.

Frontier Healer is a trait from Ironfang Invasion, the main part of it is when you heal someone with the heal skill or a spell (not with a potion etc) you increase the amount healed equal to half your HD to a minimum of one.

Hmmm....well if we got someone going Oracle. Huh....I gotta stare at stuff again to try and figure out what I want. I was gonna go Cleric but I'd rather not step on toes and with one of the peeps with a god tier stat being our healer...well I could be better placed elsewhere.

~taps chin~ I'm still sticking with the Skinwalker (May switch it up to being something non Divine.) I could possibly go Inquisitor or Ranger with these stats...Or possibly swashbuckler. Rather large amounts of options.

I believe we have two Cha based characters (Anyone without a stat above 18 can adjust their stats however they please so no one else is really set in stone other than Umbungo I believe)

My (as yet unnamed) magus is looking like possibly less of a traditional tank and maybe more of an area controller (using reach to block off a big square), though I still haven't quite nailed down the concept yet. Also, I'm going to be pretty busy until the weekend, so might not get much up until then.

Hmmm....I think I am holding concept to fruition till I see what the stat static characters have chosen.

I have more versatility in my choice so I can fill a gap of some kind.

I suppose I should offer my stat array.

I have 16,15,14,13,13,12

Slightly above average at everything than the average human...

I'm leaning Were-shark (Skinwalker) which is a +2 wis, -2 Int, (+2 con while shifted)

But I could adjust to being a Were-croc instead which is +2 Int, -2 Wis (+2 str while shifted)

So I have some options on what I could be.

Barbarian, Fighter, Inquisitor, Ranger, Rogue, Slayer, Swashbuckler, and Warpriest are all viable options with what I am thinking so far.

Honestly the first two might be a waste with these stats given that I have plenty of bonuses in plenty of areas so I should try to make a character that makes that useful....Inquisitor, Rogue, Swashbuckler, and Warpriest are currently the high choices.

But I will be eager to see what others think of it, what others plan on doing.

Hm...honestly, seeing that we already have a bunch of devoted spellcasters I may change the character to be a sacred huntsmaster Inquisitor instead of a summoner- probably using something like a pteranodon or quetzalcoatl companion (if those are allowed?), or just a Big Bird.

Gahrul go Cleric if you want you wont be stepping on any toes. They are different classes and I've happily played in a game as a cleric with another cleric PC before, what you are interested in will lead to you having more fun... though of course if that turns out to be an antipaladin I reserve the right to be nervous. I've only played in one game with an antipaladin, we made him board enemy ships with skeletons at the opposite end of the ship since he was negative energy happy.

Oh, don't worry. Trust me, I'm happy to play anything. I am currently leaning on a Gunslinger Musket Master (3 or 5)/Slayer Sniper everything else.

I mean, if Slayer isn't allowed and he'd prefer no guns I can easily go back to my aforementioned thought of Cleric...or even Anti-paladin!!!

With the Magus, Oracle, possible Inquisitor-huntmaster, and possible gunslinger or cleric, one of the Frontline options is looking good to me. So either paladin or monk then...

Also Gahrul, they erratad werecrocodile in inner sea races to give extra con instead of int, so keep that in mind.

I think skinwalker-crocodile would be nice as a race for myself as well. Could be interesting to be from the same family if anyone else ends up choosing the same race as me. Still keeping options open though, trying to decide if swim speed is better than an even higher charisma bonus.

~scratches chin~ I'd not be opposed to doing a brother thing, thought Were-crocs are notoriously willing to abandon all including family to achieve their goals...I'd be curious as to what common(ish) goal they might have.

Working as a team, Gahrul covering his brother's back with musketfire while his brother handles the up close and personal work.

I am not sure I could follow a paladin brother (Lest we come up with a god's ideals we both could agree to and the GM agrees that as a Paladin you need to be LG towards the ideals and virtues of your god not the ideals and virtues of your land).

But swashbuckler would be interesting (Plenty of Panache so not literally stuck wielding an 18-20 weapon just to have their panache pool available to them).

Bloodrager would be an interesting choice, self buffing barbarian of pure destruction if you're looking at Frontline options.

Gunslinger Gahrul Were-croc

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 13.

Cleric Gahrul Were-shark

Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 13

Just to give a small idea of his builds....

It actually looks like the biggest niche remaining is skill monkey. My two preferred classes for that role are hybrids: investigator or slayer. Otherwise I think we are limited to rogue, bard or ranger for 6+Int, right?

@GM: can we get a ruling on legality of the hybrid classes?

We may need more arcane support still also. Hmm.. maybe a bard since Kevin went oracle? That could cover us for skills and some arcane spellcasting.

Maybe a watersinger? Maybe with dirge bard also?

heh I just don't know. :D

Bloodrager came to mind for me as well as an option, but since its a hybrid Im keeping it on the backburner for now.

Good to know the two builds you have so far, thanks for posting those Gahrul.

Tundran, bard seems like it could be very fun, but don't play anything out of a sense of duty! It'll be more fun if everyone plays what they want, even if its a suboptimal team composition.

For Paladins I typically like to subvert the more common tropes, for example a skinny, heavily-tattood paladin of Vildeis filled with rage and vengeance was an idea I was entertaining.

If I did end up going monk, it might be fun to go with an intimidate-build, which the high charisma and scaled fist archetypes would really help compliment. Were-croc kin even start out with scare once a day, which would have a pretty high dc.

Either build would also probably benefit from eldritch heritage for some utility.

Anyway, still just spitballing at this point.

Grauk is a Lizardfolk Oracle with the Waves Mystery and the Tongues Curse. I was really interested in possibly taking the Deep One Curse but it might have been a bit annoying for Winterwalker.

For the moment angling for defense and utility spell wise.
Orisons: Light, Purify Food and Drink, Guidance, Detect Magic
1st-Air Bubble, Cure Light Wounds, Shield of Faith

Although his Con of 11 after racial isn't that amazing he's got an impressive strength of 17 after racial modifiers and a bite and two claw attacks so is pretty vicious once he closes. If I had gone Paladin it would have been terrifying using smite evil with his natural weapons but Oracle will sit better with me and a solid healer will be good.

Frontier Healer is a trait from Ironfang Invasion, the main part of it is when you heal someone with the heal skill or a spell (not with a potion etc) you increase the amount healed equal to half your HD to a minimum of one.

NINJA: boo I hit reply, but this is for all

Lizardfolk is fine by me ;) as for classes try to keep it core, base, and alternates if possible with monster levels being the exception. My npcs aren't built with anything else so I don't really have much experience with classes off those lists in gameplay.

re: Hybrid classes, sure. I can roll with that.

If you REALLY want another class though I can check it out, but you're giving me homework ;)

I think that fills all possible character ideas I have!

I typically HATE non paizo material as paizo even has a terrible time balancing their own classes and archetypes and I legit hate trying to go through the process of trying to determine if some 3rd party material is remotely balanced as like 50% of them i have come across are LEGIT not.

Also...Bard! I LOVE hard. They do not get enough love the little spooner bastards.

So for everyone, has there been any sort of consensus on alignment yet? Even those without full characters yet, what are your thoughts on party alignment restrictions.

I ask because I could potentially go Anti-paladin (LE Tyrant/Fearmonger fear based build) instead of Paladin, but I don't want to cause any overwhelming party conflict.

Also @Gahrul or anyone else, if we did end up both being were-crocodiles from the same family, that doesn't mean that we have to get along necessarily.

"I am not sure I could follow a paladin brother (Lest we come up with a god's ideals we both could agree to and the GM agrees that as a Paladin you need to be LG towards the ideals and virtues of your god not the ideals and virtues of your land)."

Sounds good to me if we do end up going that route! Though I believe part of the worldsetting in general is that the gods have largely abandoned this flooded world. The basic code of conduct for Paladins isn't nearly as strict as most people treat it (though that might just be my interpretation)

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Idk, I've always just thought of that as being very interpretive. "Legitimate authority" I think is one that especially trips people up, as two paladins could have wildly different definitions for what legitimate authority might constitute.

Anyways, sorry for the semi-off topic rant.

To bring it back a little, bloodrager would be absolutely fantastic for these stats, though I'm not sure which bloodline to pick and whether to build a natural-weapon build or go classic two-handed.

Chaotic good people can and have (Or at least I have) Threatened innocents in the past in order to scare them away from trouble/danger.

A paladin would have to smite said CG person for this and personally I find that RUDE or lose their powers.

At least if we are being literalists who demand the most out of a Paladin's code.

I saw Tyrant and I'm glad that that was made an Archetype to drag Anti-paladin away from the position of CE...I just never felt that was right unless there was an archetype that allowed paladins to be beacons for the greater good IE CG and just be people who embody their gods tenets and not the "paladin code"

(I see a Paladin still attempting to believe his god could never truly die and that their ideals and code should still be honored...but that's my interpretation of the class.)

It's true that we don't have to get along necessarily, but I feel that given that Skinwalkers don't exist outside their respective bloodlines (They don't just happen as some divine accident or fiendish accident....they have to have a Skinwalker parent to receive the 'curse') and that they are fairly tight nit communities that don't let people just walk away and start their own community....that we grew up thinking that abandoning others for our goals in life is something not to be scorned...but that if you want to have a family that gets along and doesn't leave the other to die...they should have somewhat of a common goal even if it varies just ever so slightly.

Chaotic good people can and have (Or at least I have) Threatened innocents in the past in order to scare them away from trouble/danger.

A paladin would have to smite said CG person for this and personally I find that RUDE or lose their powers.

At least if we are being literalists who demand the most out of a Paladin's code.

I saw Tyrant and I'm glad that that was made an Archetype to drag Anti-paladin away from the position of CE...I just never felt that was right unless there was an archetype that allowed paladins to be beacons for the greater good IE CG and just be people who embody their gods tenets and not the "paladin code"

(I see a Paladin still attempting to believe his god could never truly die and that their ideals and code should still be honored...but that's my interpretation of the class.)

It's true that we don't have to get along necessarily, but I feel that given that Skinwalkers don't exist outside their respective bloodlines (They don't just happen as some divine accident or fiendish accident....they have to have a Skinwalker parent to receive the 'curse') and that they are fairly tight nit communities that don't let people just walk away and start their own community....that we grew up thinking that abandoning others for our goals in life is something not to be scorned...but that if you want to have a family that gets along and doesn't leave the other to die...they should have somewhat of a common goal even if it varies just ever so slightly.

Hmmm, good points for the Skinwalker culture. I too would imagine the groups would be fairly tight nit.

And yeah, Paladin codes are always GM dependent like you pointed out, although I'm so far lucky to not have any super-demanding GMs or players who push it so far as "The paladin must attack the party member who just intimidated the witness or they lose their powers and have to go pay 2,500 gold to get them back" .

I could get behind staying true to a Paladin's god code though like you said.

Andoletta, Kurgess, Ragathiel, and Yuelral all have interesting Paladin codes, you can find them on archive of nethys if your interested.

A Paladin of a LN god like Anubis, Imbrex or Magdh could be potentially interesting.

I also wouldn't mind working with you and the GM to come up with a custom code appropriate to the campaign.

If only the Gray Knight archetype didn't suck! I would love a Paladin version of the Insinuator or Tyrant archetypes that stood for the "greater good" and didnt lose practically everything that makes Paladins good in the first place lol

Chaotic good people can and have (Or at least I have) Threatened innocents in the past in order to scare them away from trouble/danger.

A paladin would have to smite said CG person for this and personally I find that RUDE or lose their powers.

At least if we are being literalists who demand the most out of a Paladin's code.

I saw Tyrant and I'm glad that that was made an Archetype to drag Anti-paladin away from the position of CE...I just never felt that was right unless there was an archetype that allowed paladins to be beacons for the greater good IE CG and just be people who embody their gods tenets and not the "paladin code"

(I see a Paladin still attempting to believe his god could never truly die and that their ideals and code should still be honored...but that's my interpretation of the class.)

It's true that we don't have to get along necessarily, but I feel that given that Skinwalkers don't exist outside their respective bloodlines (They don't just happen as some divine accident or fiendish accident....they have to have a Skinwalker parent to receive the 'curse') and that they are fairly tight nit communities that don't let people just walk away and start their own community....that we grew up thinking that abandoning others for our goals in life is something not to be scorned...but that if you want to have a family that gets along and doesn't leave the other to die...they should have somewhat of a common goal even if it varies just ever so slightly.

re: paladins

On the topic of gods- I'm planning on playing a divine spellcaster (inquisitor, probably a Varana) who still possesses divine magic- although the gods being dead may throw a wrench in this plan.

What ways would divine spellcasters still be able to hold on to magic in this campaign without deities?

GM responded in the recruitment thread, "No PF deities, spells will function normally but come from a mysterious source" in response to a question about deities

Yeah, I was asking in terms of RP- how do the characters feel about their deities being dead and still having magic?

How do you want us to format our posts in Gameplay?

Yeah, I was asking in terms of RP- how do the characters feel about their deities being dead and still having magic?

It doesn't say anywhere (that I can find) that they are dead Winterwalker just says they are gone, they could have just abandoned the world but let their followers keep having magic

I'm using background Skills for Krendec
how do you guys feel about:
Unchained disease and poison
Unchained Alignment
Wound levels
Contacts
Most if these will affect you more than me (being in the background) Winterwalker has already said he doesn't care one way or another about these alternate rules.

Don't have any experience with the last three, contacts would be interesting though. Don't really feel strongly either way.

As for disease and poison, I've found them alot smoother than normal rules in most cases (though for some things there is some guesswork for conversion from the normal rules), and I'd be fine with using those.

On the topic of gods- I'm planning on playing a divine spellcaster (inquisitor, probably a Varana) who still possesses divine magic- although the gods being dead may throw a wrench in this plan.

What ways would divine spellcasters still be able to hold on to magic in this campaign without deities?

They aren't dead, just not answering. :) magic still works though.

Yeah, I was asking in terms of RP- how do the characters feel about their deities being dead and still having magic?

That's more an IC discussion I'd say ;)

How do you want us to format our posts in Gameplay?

Feel free to to do it as you see fit. I just as the actual spoken word be quoted so I know what was said aloud ie:

"What are we doing?"

Can I cast This spell from faiths of balance?

Can I cast This spell from faiths of balance?

I don't see why not.

Ancient Dragon Master wrote:

Can I cast This spell from faiths of balance?

I don't see why not.

Thanks :) couldn't complete my whole character without confirmation one way or another

Ok, so updating our combat party with the latest:

Kevin - Grauk - lizardfolk oracle locked in stats- 22 CHA
ambnz - skinwalker paladin or monk? locked in stats- 22 CHA
189birds - vanara inquisitor stats locked?
Jing - Gahrul - skinwalker gunslinger or cleric stats unlocked
umbungo - magus stats locked?
Tundran - bard or bloodrager? stats unlocked

So I think my biggest issue is that I was trying to run with my stat array of 16 Str, 16 Cha. But since we have 2 PC's with superhuman Cha, it makes more sense for me to change my stats and put that 16 into a different mental stat.

And looking at that list, we definitely seem to be short on arcane support and skills. So bard is probably the best but honestly I'm just not feeling a bard character for this setting.

On the other hand, I am feeling really inspired by blue wizards from Magic: the Gathering so I think that's where I will actually end up. Probably an aquatic elf I think, a scholar at the Tolarian Academy before all the chaos begins. I know elves aren't blue in MtG but close enough. :D

We will need someone else to take skills like Disable Device if I go wizard. Can anyone cover that?

As far as alignment: 98% of my characters fall into NG, CG, or N. I'm fine with characters of any alignment personally as long as the PC will work with the group.

Wizard sounds good to me Tundran! As an mtg player I love the inspiration.

Any thoughts on the type of wizard? Are you leaning towards a blaster, a buffer, or something else?

I think....I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the Paladin (holy guide). I just love the idea of a heavily armored were-crocodile riding around on a hippocampus throwing out the occasional smite.

Gahrul, could be cool if you were still open to being brothers as were-croc kin, but no worries if you aren't interested. If you want to we can adjust backstory stuff as necessary

With that in mind, I'll work on writing up the crunch of it.

Backstory: A shaman or witch archetypal character from a small swamp community. His sense of honor and duty put him out of place among their kin (although his powers earned him respect and fear), but his racial curse kept them from being accepted by society at large.

Worked as both a religious healer and monster hunter, though he was never the brightest tool in the shed. Still, his heart was pure.

When the waters began to come, he was at first unalarmed. Then when they didn't stop coming, on of his tribe members finally convinced him that these new waters were dangerous and he would have to abandon his home. Eventually among the chaos, he was separated from much of his kin. He's now adrift in vessel among many strangers, tired, confused, and afraid.

I'm cool with it, I'll lean my character to being...NE at worst, but most likely neutral with a stealth issue >.>....~garrotes~

I may or may not be able to write it up this weekend. I've been dealing with switching psych meds and it's taking a little longer to get over the withdrawal effects of my last medication than I'd like.

Brain Zaps have been on the legit annoying bad side with a case of the Sundowning

Sounds good to me! Was going to keep ranks in stealth as well myself, I like dusk knight themes even though the actual archetype isn't the greatest. Love the idea of popping up behind someone unseen in a full suit of full plate shadow armor.

Hope you get over the brain zaps soon! I imagine that can suck quite alot.

Grauk is CN, he does bad things on occassion but to try to survive rather than profit or maliciousness.

Tunran, you might want to consider Exploiter archetype for Wizard, you'll lose your arcane bond and school but you get an arcanists arcane reservoir and a few exploits. Exploits like Counterspell, Spell Tinkerer and Spell Disruption might fit thematically for a blue.

Actually that inspired me to just make a full arcanist, something I haven't done before. I think I will take the occultist archetype to have some cheap summons too.

I'm working on it now. :D

@GM: Am I ok taking the elf favored class bonus as an aquatic elf?

edit: Aquan isn't listed as available for a starting language which seems like an oversight. Am I ok taking it?

OK, I think I'm all set. Let me know if you have any comments or see anything wrong with my guy.

I'm thinking some kind of neutral (possibly LN) for alignment. I feel like a paladin might be a fun addition to the crew.

Well you're in luck because that's what I settled on! Here he is, let me know of anything wrong sticking out.

Ouch, them skill points....i feel yah

That said, not having high perception/sense motive favors me being able to lie and sneak off for terrible deeds to further out goals.

Well you're in luck because that's what I settled on! Here he is, let me know of anything wrong sticking out.

Your traits are not 100% visible and you forgot to write your movement speed