Paladin: Deific Weapon

Alright, so I read through the paladin class features and feats and am loving them so far. I did come across one issue though with a class feature while building a paladin of Iomedae and I hadn't seen it addressed yet(entirely possible I missed it):

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Deific Weapon
If your deity’s favored weapon (see page 72) is uncommon,
you gain access to it. If the weapon is simple, increase the
damage die by one step when you wield it (d4 to d6, d6
to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12).

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Looking at all compatible deities, this ability seems to be hit and miss(mostly miss).

Starting with: all weapons for paladin deities are common!

Abadar(Crossbow) - Simple damage bonus, but is dex-based for a str-based class
Erastil(Longbow) - Martial(no bonus) and dex-based for a str-based class
Irori(Fist) - Simple damage bonus
Sarenrae(Scimitar) - Martial(no bonus)
Shelyn(Glaive) - Martial(no bonus)
Torag(Warhammer) - Martial(no bonus)

I'm really liking the direction this class is going, but would hate to see a great opportunity to be a champion of your deity wielding their weapon of choice wield no benefit for all but two deities.

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

Looking at all compatible deities, this ability seems to be hit and miss(mostly miss).

Starting with: all weapons for paladin deities are common!

Abadar(Crossbow) - Simple damage bonus, but is dex-based for a str-based class
Erastil(Longbow) - Martial(no bonus) and dex-based for a str-based class
Irori(Fist) - Simple damage bonus
Sarenrae(Scimitar) - Martial(no bonus)
Shelyn(Glaive) - Martial(no bonus)
Torag(Warhammer) - Martial(no bonus)

I'm really liking the direction this class is going, but would hate to see a great opportunity to be a champion of your deity wielding their weapon of choice wield no benefit for all but two deities.

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

As I mentioned in another thread, sure it will boost fist damage for Irorans, but it lacks any sort of text to allow them to do lethal damage with their fists. An important thing to have if you want to smite undead.

I think the bigger problem is that most base class features aren't modular enough. Why not let us choose our armor-type proficiency increases? Why not make simple weapons actually good for Paladins/Clerics instead of pretending to make them acceptable?

The idea of Deific Weapon isn't "let's give everyone a boost! oops we missed some." It's "let's even the playing field among favored weapons." If Deific Weapon weren't there, a lot of paladins just wouldn't use their deity's favored weapon, which would be a shame flavor-wise, and some would switch to deities with better weapons (also a shame).

But if you have it pump every weapon up equally, you make the initially better (martial) weapons much more attractive, thus de-evening the playing field again.

The idea of Deific Weapon isn't "let's give everyone a boost! oops we missed some." It's "let's even the playing field among favored weapons." If Deific Weapon weren't there, a lot of paladins just wouldn't use their deity's favored weapon, which would be a shame flavor-wise, and some would switch to deities with better weapons (also a shame).

But if you have it pump every weapon up equally, you make the initially better (martial) weapons much more attractive, thus de-evening the playing field again.

This is correct. In many cases, simple weapons are almost exactly one die step behind a similar martial weapon, which means this feature equalizes most of them pretty well.

Considering the limited choice of deities for Paladins and given the list above, how many paladins are you going to see that are going to use non-lethal fists or crossbows just because of a small damage boost?

To begin with, the fact that Paladins are meant to wear heavy armor(per their proficiency progression) automatically makes them unable to wield Irori's favored weapon since heavy armor typically comes fitted with gauntlets which are a different weapon than fists and actually is considered lethal. (Though it should be noted that you could make your non-lethal fist attack lethal if you make an untrained strike. p.294)

The only other simple weapon is a crossbow, which is dex-based for a class which is by rules meant to be strength based(as opposed to the fighter which can chose dex over str). Also, and this I would have to do research on, I'm not sure a crossbow works with their class feature "Retributive Strike".

So even with the small damage bonus, you still wouldn't chose the only two weapons that this ability affects.

Considering the limited choice of deities for Paladins and given the list above, how many paladins are you going to see that are going to use non-lethal fists or crossbows just because of a small damage boost?

There will be more paladin-having deities as more material is published. Future-proofing is important. Especially when we already know what a lot of that material is going to look like based on current material.

I don't think I should be sold on a defining core class feature not having use until future books come out.

Make it a feat, or incorporate blade of justice/ holy smite into it and let you spend an action to add Cha to damage.

There will be more paladin-having deities as more material is published. Future-proofing is important. Especially when we already know what a lot of that material is going to look like based on current material.

Ok, if it's setting the groundwork for something outside the scope of the playtest, that makes sense.

If LG paladins are the bar, and other deities mean to have their paladins aspire to be as "good" as LG Paladins(even though we all know they never will :P ), then I guess Deific Weapon will help them reach that lofty bar. Haha

Jaling wrote:

Considering the limited choice of deities for Paladins and given the list above, how many paladins are you going to see that are going to use non-lethal fists or crossbows just because of a small damage boost?

There will be more paladin-having deities as more material is published. Future-proofing is important. Especially when we already know what a lot of that material is going to look like based on current material.

My wife created a goblin paladin for the playtest. Because she is is very much a roleplayer who enjoys working with the Golarion setting, she decided that her paladin would follow Alseta, the lawful neutral goddess of doorways, portals, thresholds, the new year, and transitions. This included midwifery and death rites, as the transitions into life and into death.

Alseta was not one of the options for the playtest, so we had to create anathema for her. Alseta objects to enabling unlawful entry, refusing permitted entry, and violating the rules of hospitality. The paladin was very careful to request permission from Talga before entering Mudchewer territory.

More relevant for this thread, Alseta's favored weapon is the dagger, a simple weapon. Deific Weapon ability boosted its damage from 1d4 to 1d6, making it worth using.

And this was great for roleplaying. The goblin paladin served in a hospice of Alseta, because he had been tended there a few years ago after a mind quake (Mind Quake Survivor background) after rummaging through the garbage heap behind the townhouse of a secret Black Tapestry researcher. Though the hospice clerics generally trusted the goblin, no-one wanted to give a goblin more than a dagger as a weapon. They were more generous with his armor.

It does seem that the default "Irorian Paladin" in the playtest is sort of a strange mental image: the hero in shining heavy armor who carries a shield... and punches you.

Making this particularly odd is how the Irorian Paladin archetype from PF1 asks you to wear light armor and eschew a shield.

I am not sure of intention but as written you get access to and damage bonus to uncommon simple weapons(if any deity has such). While a common martial weapon gets nothing. I would have it be you get uncommon at your level of proficiency, common at proficiency +1 circumstance and all weapons get the damage die increase or a circumstance bonus to damage.

I find it nice that this does try and make it so all deities favoured weapon are equally good, but this seems more for clerics, whom only gets trained in simple weapons and their dieties weapon, but for them they have to take a level 1 feat Deadly simplicity to get this bonus to simple weapons, but it feels wrong that clerics have to use a class feat to try and equal out deities weapons that way, maybe make Deific weapon a Cleric ability they start with instead of a feat.
For Paladins this seems really boring, as a Paladin you are trained in all simple and martial weapons, so unless there later comes a deity with an uncommen favoured weapon this feels like it does mostly nothing, as only to deities weapons are affected.
Personally i would say that Deific weapons should be expanded on, still keeping the upgraded dice for simple weapons to make them stack up to other weapons, but also adding another posetive effect for using your deities favoured weapon, cause currently the only reason to do it is flavour. I would love to see some small benefit for using your deities favoured weapon, not to big so it doesn't limit playstyles, but just something to make it worth using them, because personally it seems wrong to me that Paladins whom get better at using weapons, can't do anything extra with their deities favoured weapon.

Now that we have the archetypes for all the classes I have a doubt about Paladins of Irori:
If at Lv 2 she takes the Monk Dedication feat she gains the ‘Powerful Fist’ feature:

“When striking with your fist, you deal 1d6 damage instead of 1d4. You don’t take the –2 circumstance penalty when making a lethal attack with a nonlethal unarmed attack.”

Would it stack with the deific weapon?

Per the "increasing weapon damage dice" sidebar on page 91 of the rulebook

You can never increase your weapon damage dice more than once.

So Deific Weapon + Powerful Fist doesn't do anything, I think. However, there is some ambiguity about whether Deific Weapon would apply to Crane Wing, Wolf Jaw, etc. attacks.

So Deific Weapon + Powerful Fist doesn't do anything, I think. However, there is some ambiguity about whether Deific Weapon would apply to Crane Wing, Wolf Jaw, etc. attacks.

I don't think it would, as Irori's favored weapon isn't Crane Wing or Wolf Jaw or General Unarmed Attacks, it's Fist

I don't think I should be sold on a defining core class feature not having use until future books come out.

Make it a feat, or incorporate blade of justice/ holy smite into it and let you spend an action to add Cha to damage.

Personally I'd like to see an emblazon symbol equivalent incorporated into deific weapon or some such.

Because I don't really like how a lot of domain powers/channel life is impossible to use nicely in combat with the sword and board or polearm playstyle encouraged by paly.