My parents are visiting. Then early next week I'm on a business trip. Posting will be sporadic til Wednesday or thursday. Sorry, I 'm looking forward to picking up regular posting then.. I will post as much as possible, please don't be disappointed if it's not the pace you'd like.
I would like to say that the last few posts and the drama and the different viewpoints were particularly interesting and make for a rather good read, if I do say so myself. In particular, I like how Akorian and Marius use words that mirror each other's but are different at those points relevant to each character's way through life.
Thank you It's been fun to write this friction but sooner or later one or the other off us has to give way ...Waif is absolutely right Akorian and Marius are the two sides of the same coin.
It's even more amusing when you realise that in Thom's other game and my character and Neil's are good friends and get each other perfectly.
I guess we can roleplay after all. :)
True! And that's why I absolutely trust you as a player in portraying Marius as a foil to Akorian. It's true that something has to give somewhere down the road, but not right away (I hope!). This kind of intra-party tension is what makes for a more dramatic and memorable story. It's not just a bunch of PCs going from one encounter to the next. It's also about how each of them interact with one another and interpret what they're doing as a group.
For the moment, I'm planning on having Akorian press the point with Marius a bit. I went back and re-read the sections where we've disagreed in-character before, including the threat Marius made while he and Waifrin stayed at the Henderthane estate. In that exchange, Marius mentioned that he didn't have to like Akorian to work with him. And that's true. And I'll have Akorian accept that, because it's becoming very clear that Marius doesn't like him (or what he represents). So, instead, I'll probably have Akorian pull rank to secure his cooperation.
Basically, Arael (by way of Thom) 'appointed' Akorian as the group's leader. So, in that light, Akorian's going to ask Marius to be a follower rather than an alpha-male leader for awhile. Akorian will take on the responsibility of the decision-making. He'll ask for Marius' input and commit to giving it fair weight. But, at the same time, he'll ask for Marius to honor whatever decision he makes. And if Akorian turns out to be wrong on something, he'll ask Marius to trust that he'll learn from it and do better next time. And, lastly, I'm going to have Akorian press the point about feeling disrespected by Marius for being a noble. Basically, he'll come back at Marius with the point that he's the one practicing class-warfare with his continued distrust and distaste for all nobles. If Marius views every man as an "equal" then Akorian is going to demand equal respect...because right now, he doesn't feel like he's getting any respect from Marius, based purely on his hatred of the Chelish nobility...which Akorian is clearly trying to fight against in the form of the current regime.
So, let me know your thoughts on where we take it and if that approach sounds plausible, story-wise for you to work with me on it. I like the interplay of all these characters. There's a great story weaving throughout the adventure just based on how we all relate to one another. I'd like to see us keep it going...and hence, there's no need to immediately resolve the conflict between Akorian and Marius. Somewhere down the road, there can be some dramatic moment or ephiphany where the two recognize one another for the value they bring to a certain challenge or situation, shake hands, and then join forces to really do some damage against the forces of evil. But, for now, it's really cool seeing two hot-heads with good intentions arguing over how things should be done. I like that kind of interplay.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
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I like the RP aspect of the interpersonal tensions, but I do get frustrated when the different viewpoints end up making it less likely that we are going to 'win.' Drama is fun, but the epic stories involve heroes who succeed in their missions despite any inter-party drama (even if they have to lose drama-queen Boromir along the way...).
We have opportunities that the adventure seems to hand us on a silver platter, such as the most recent opportunity to recruit / bribe / trick a group of oh-so-conveniently-placed goblins *with Darkvision* to learn about / use against the Bastards (who use *darkness* as their primary weapon), and it felt, to me, like any chance we had of taking advantage of that was sabotaged, just as we stood on the brink of success.
I was pretty disappointed that the plucky band of rebels working undercover to free the city of Westcrown from the grip of hell itself had been sent in panicky rout by a relatively small band of goblins that we seemed to have more or less beaten.
I mean, yeah, they were pounding a drum, but I'm pretty sure they didn't have a Balrog in the basement... And if they did, Zarabeta was totally ready to hold the bridge and come back as Zarabeta the White!
I really could give a rat's butt about some piddly 100 gp reward, since I'm sure we'll see more shadowbeasts in the course of our Wiscrani adventures (and, purely meta, but WBL tends to adjust itself anyway, so that we'll end up coming into a windfall if we get shorted somewhere else...), but losing the chance of finding out about the Bastards defenses and territory from the 'natives,' as well as the possible chance to use them to find secret ways into the Bastard's holdings (goblins being so good at that sort of sneaky squirmy thing), or even using them against the Bastards (and, ultimately, weakening two presences that we'll need to eventually deal with), is just brutal.
But that could just be me playing too much Vampire, and thinking of NPC encounters as opportunities for diplomacy and intrigue, and not just swordplay. My own views, as always, are tainted by my own playstyle preferences...
I thought we'd easily beat the goblins too, and eliminate them as a threat to Westcrown. I don't Waifrin really had the patience to deal with the Goblins, but she was already half-convinced that they were working with the Bastards anyway.
That said, the friction is fun to watch, and poor Waifrin caught in the middle and having to act as peacemaker when she'd rather start the trouble ... at any rate, she has made her tactical suggestion, and now she needs to catch up on her beauty sleep.
My posting may be erratic for the next few days. My father passed away this evening after a long fight with cancer.
My posting may be erratic for the next few days. My father passed away this evening after a long fight with cancer.
My condolences, Wellard. Don't worry about the game, it will be here when you're done with more important things.
Condolences, Wellard.
Best wishes to you and your family, Wellard.
Also, FYI, my own participation in the game may be a bit more spotty in the days ahead. I've got PaizoCon coming up (but should still be able to check the boards every now and then). I've also got some writing deadlines looming.
--Neil
Guys, I'm playing in a Kingmaker PbP that's looking for 2 new players. Death-Lok posted the opening last night.
I'm always interested, if there's an opening. What characters have you already got and what do you need?
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I'm always interested, if there's an opening. What characters have you already got and what do you need?
Looks like they have 2 rangers and a fighter, and lost a cleric and something-I-forgot-in-the-three-second-it-took-to-open-a-new-page (alchemist?).
Of the submissions they've got so far, dwarven clerics seem to be popular. :)
Well I'm running Kingmaker at our club so I'm out. Druids excel in this game for a change..though a cleric of Erastil is always a good choice.
Naturally, I have proposed a wizard ....
I'm intrigued by the thought of joining a Kingmaker campaign, but I really shouldn't. I'm in too many PbPs as it is...and it doesn't always help my writing deadlines. :-)
Still...if I did join such a game, I'd want to play a druid with a level or two in barbarian for good measure.
Well I'm running Kingmaker at our club so I'm out. Druids excel in this game for a change..though a cleric of Erastil is always a good choice.
When we got our first peak at the Golarion Pantheon, Erastil was the one I was most excited about. Longbow + cleric = cool.
Naturally, I have proposed a wizard ....
Well that should set you apart from the cleric gang. French Wolf has already chipped in too. Speaking of which I better go vouch for you too.
So sunrods in the darkness area will provide dim light ... this time around!
Since light and darkness spells are now described as moving the illumination level up or down, mundane light will establish the base illumination level of any area, and we'll modify with magic from there. Overlapping illumination or darkness spells may stack up to a limit of three. So for instance I can't create an area of super-darkness by stacking 200 darkness spells so that you could never light your way to vision.
Was I clear?
Castor is right. Darkvision lets you see through darkness, but not deeper darkness.
Set, how many dogs can you summon? I may need to make the Bastards more numerous.
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Set, how many dogs can you summon? I may need to make the Bastards more numerous.
That's it for today. Like a ninny, I prepped a couple of color sprays instead (and a grease), kinda/sorta not thinking about whether they would be terribly effective in a lightless scenario.
[Okay, I was thinking 'attack during the day, roll well on Initiative, color spray 'em before they shut off the lights, but that was a silly thought, in retrospect.]
Excellent, mwahahahaha!
Seriously, the dog was super impressive there. My word you rolled well.
Almost as good as my Sorceress' run of amazing Intimidation/Diplomacy rolls in Thoms other game.
Well, I think color spray should still be effective in darkness, if nothing else it can highlight us targets. In the meantime, Waifrin has at least saved her power points!
Marching order:
Raven, then Marius, then who? I suggest either Zara or Waifrin so they can use their offensive powers, with Akorian as rearguard.
Almost as good as my Sorceress' run of amazing Intimidation/Diplomacy rolls in Thoms other game.
You guys have been very good at the social skills in that game. Makes it hard sometimes to flavor NPC reactions without going too stereotype.
Well, I think color spray should still be effective in darkness, if nothing else it can highlight us targets. In the meantime, Waifrin has at least saved her power points!
Yes, it will highlight you nicely, but the teiflings don't need it.
Set, could you weigh in as a special guest on my Korvosa Chat thread in the PbP Discussion thread?
Well why don't you open with a few minutes of standup. Then we'll do a short interview?
Waifrin's bluff kinda sorta reminded me of the fabled Han Solo bluff. Only our girl's thing was actually convincing. So convincing in fact that the... err... bluffee wants to get inside the house even more now... :-P
Guys, I am going to be out of town -and away from a computer- for the next three or four days. I should be back around Monday or Tuesday. Thom, feel free to use Raven at your leisure during this time. :-)
Waifrin's bluff kinda sorta reminded me of the fabled Han Solo bluff. Only our girl's thing was actually convincing. So convincing in fact that the... err... bluffee wants to get inside the house even more now... :-P
It was a spur of the moment inspiration and it could have gone horribly pear-shape, and still might! But it also might just let us keep the element of surprise a tad longer.
Spectre avatar
BTW, I'll be away for the Independence Day weekend. Posting resumes Tuesday.
Seeing as how I could use a few pointers from my esteemed colleagues, as well as our illustrious DM, here is the thing.
The idea about Raven has been that he would be advancing as a rogue up to and including the 5th level and then he would be moving down the Shadowdancer prestige class, since I have always found that particular PrC a fun and interesting one.
However, it does make me wonder how such a transition could be explained, at least in a PbP, where the story and the roleplaying are actually turned up a notch when compared to the P'n'P tabletop version. I mean, it is -at least in my mind- infinitely easier to go e.g. from wizard to Loremaster and simply say he studied or researched his way there, or from rogue/wizard to Arcane Trickster and say that with practice he managed to meld the two ways of doing things. Same goes for other PrCs, such as Arcane Archer, Assassin, Duelist and so on and so forth. The Shadowdancer, though, goes from the good old-fashioned rogue, essentially a thief and scout with perhaps some extraordinary abilites here and there, to someone who casts illusions and shadow spells of a sort, summons shadows and more or less teleports short distances.
So, ideas? Flex those RPG muscles chaps!
In another PbP I'm playing an elven rangerr/fighter who's going into Arcane Archer. Although he's only first level , I've already had him pestering the alchemist about things arcane. The other cool thing you could try is the arcane rogue tricks. Give Raven a cantrip, or even a first level spell, kind of build him in that direction.
Or start hanging out with the shadow beasts. Maybe all they need is for someone to talk to them. ANd a nice hug.
Chalk it up to some ancient tradition of elven magic...i.e., something that elven legends talk about...the way of the Shadowdancer. Then, as a course of combatting the shadowbeasts and having to skulk around Westcrown in the dark all the time, have Raven start practicing and eventually becoming an actual shadowdancer himself.
If you want to go the route Thom has suggested (i.e., tack on the rogue talents for minor magic and major magic), you could give Raven access to a cantrip like ghost sound or touch of fatigue as a way of demonstrating his growing knowledge of manipulating shadow energy. And, if you wanted to take it a step further with the major magic talent, you could grab a 1st level spell like chill touch, disguise self, ray of enfeeblement, silent image, or ventriloquism.
My two-cents,
--Neil
I would agree with this, that the change could simply be some kind of elven magic or affinity with the shadows (I mean, we ARE conflicting with shadow beasts here).
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There could be some inborn potential for shadow-manipulation in Raven's distant past, which might spark into life the first time he gets a tiefling's blood on him, or in the presence of magical darkness, he begins to see things that exist in another place, one that cannot abide the presence of even the smallest sliver of light.
Later attempts to commune with these shadowy figures might require him to extinguish all light sources, and wait for them to contact him in the darkness, where his training in the arts of shadow-manipulation can begin.
Thanks guys! Excellent ideas all, though I think I will be using Set's idea as a basis. So, how about something like this?
The name of Raven's House -or family, if you will- is Dwin'Alir, which loosely translated into the Common tongue means "Walkers in Shadow". Whether that was always the family name or not, it still seems a fitting one for an elven House comprised mostly of scouts and thieves and spies and even assassins, people who would live most of their life in the day's shadows and the night's darkness. But for some of them, the aforementioned appellation has been much more literal, much more fitting as it were.
Whether there is simply something in the blood or some long-forgotten pact is to blame, it is of no consequence. Suffice to say that within some of the Dwin'Alir elves there exists the potential to not simply feel at ease in the shadow and the dark, but to actually be one with it, use it and become masters of it. The ones that have been able to do so have been known to manifest abilities far greater than any of their relatives, being able to not only see perfectly in utter darkness, but use the shadows in a variety of ways, from hiding within them even while being observed to conjuring illusions and shadowy servants and more.
What triggers the ability's manifestation for the first time seems to differ from person to person, but almost always it is of a supernatural nature and almost always it is connected to the presence of shadows or darkness.
By the way, Zarabeta is possibly going to be pestered by the friendly elf on this, you do realize that, yes?
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By the way, Zarabeta is possibly going to be pestered by the friendly elf on this, you do realize that, yes?
Cool with me. I'm pretty sure she's got a rank in Knowledge (the planes), so she'll at least have some idea about the presence of a shadowy reflection of the living world out there.
The Scarred Lands setting had a demigoddess of shadows named Drendari, IIRC, who was said to exist deep within every shadow. If a Rogue ever made a Hide check of 30-35 ish (or rolled a natural 20 at a lower ranking), she became aware of him, and, in some rare cases, particularly if he was an attractive male, he might be pressed agaisnt a cold stone wall, squeezed into a shadow barely large enough to conceal him, and suddenly be aware of a soft feminine form behind him, whispering into his ear, as there was no shadow so small that she could not find her way into it.
While Drendari isn't part of this setting (and the decidedly un-sexy Zon-Kuthon being the only native diety with the Darkness domain), you could personalize the entity that will eventually become your shadow companion, either manifesting it as a shadow from within yourself, as a 'shadow-twin' from 'the other side,' something that has whispered to your ancestors, or perhaps even some spiritual remnant of those same ancestors.
Building off of the elven fey / First World connection, the shadow companion could have a touch of unseelie 'winter court,' and prone to pranksterism and cutting remarks (shared only with Raven), and, if not cautioned, acts that could be interpreted as going past fickle and fey into downright mean...
Just remember the whispered fates of those who presumed to call themselves 'master' of the shadows. It's a dance, between two partners, as subtle and as dangerous as a knife-fight, not the relationship between owner and slave. The arrogant man forgets this, and the relationship does indeed become that of master and servant, only it is not the shadow that is the junior partner!
I am not entirely certain if I should be the one deciding what the shadow's nature is. It feels a bit like I am stepping on the DM's toes a little more than I would feel comfortable with. I think I will leave it up to Thom to decide if he or I should be the one choosing what the shadow companion is and personalizing or fleshing the entity out as it were. :-)
Be that as it may, I think Set's idea would be an AWESOME addition to Raven's development over the course of the AP. Very cool stuff.
Oh, make no mistake: I absolutely love Set's idea!
It is just that I am not sure who should primarily handle its implementation, Thom or I. I would assume that at least the first time Raven becomes aware of the existence of the Shadowdancer's path, as well as the first time the shadow entity that is to become his companion makes its existence known, both fall within the DM's purview. From then on, personalizing the shadow and fleshing it out being my job is fine by me, as long as Thom is ok with it; if he wants to do that too, that is also fine by me. I am, if nothing else, a flexible chap, or at least that is what I would like to think. :-)
Immaturity first!
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While Drendari isn't part of this setting (and the decidedly un-sexy Zon-Kuthon being the only native diety with the Darkness domain), ...
Pleasure, pain, sharp implements, and tight black leather. Who says ZK's not sexy?
While Drendari isn't part of this setting (and the decidedly un-sexy Zon-Kuthon being the only native diety with the Darkness domain), you could personalize the entity that will eventually become your shadow companion, either manifesting it as a shadow from within yourself, as a 'shadow-twin' from 'the other side,' something that has whispered to your ancestors, or perhaps even some spiritual remnant of those same ancestors.
Building off of the elven fey / First World connection, the shadow companion could have a touch of unseelie 'winter court,' and prone to pranksterism and cutting remarks (shared only with Raven), and, if not cautioned, acts that could be interpreted as going past fickle and fey into downright mean...
Just remember the whispered fates of those who presumed to call themselves 'master' of the shadows. It's a dance, between two partners, as subtle and as dangerous as a knife-fight, not the relationship between owner and slave. The arrogant man forgets this, and the relationship does indeed become that of master and servant, only it is not the shadow that is the junior partner!
Oh, make no mistake: I absolutely love Set's idea!
It is just that I am not sure who should primarily handle its implementation, Thom or I. I would assume that at least the first time Raven becomes aware of the existence of the Shadowdancer's path, as well as the first time the shadow entity that is to become his companion makes its existence known, both fall within the DM's purview. From then on, personalizing the shadow and fleshing it out being my job is fine by me, as long as Thom is ok with it; if he wants to do that too, that is also fine by me. I am, if nothing else, a flexible chap, or at least that is what I would like to think. :-)
Lost this post once already so you're in luck. I'll be brief.
Shadowdancer's shadow is equivalent to caster's familiar. So you get a good bit of control. And I've never liked the Shadowdancer's shadow as undead. It irks me on a couple levels. (Oh, this is a good undead. {Undead=evil for me, except for some ghosts and spirits that are usually plot devices} Why would shadows have to be undead? I can see undead might like to hang out in the shadow-plane, but that doesn't mean all shadow-things are undead.)
So if you want to tweak the shadow companion around a little I'm good with it so long as I get my usual DM veto power. And I do like Set's take, too.
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Shadowdancer's shadow is equivalent to caster's familiar. So you get a good bit of control. And I've never liked the Shadowdancer's shadow as undead. It irks me on a couple levels. (Oh, this is a good undead. {Undead=evil for me, except for some ghosts and spirits that are usually plot devices} Why would shadows have to be undead? I can see undead might like to hang out in the shadow-plane, but that doesn't mean all shadow-things are undead.)
The critters in Shadow Absalom seem like dark reflections of the living, but neither undead nor necessarily evil. Similarly, the residents of the Plane of Shadow (or even the Negative Energy / Material Plane) have generally been sinister and dangerous, but never explicity evil.
Technically, by D&D standards, a spirit or soul, separated from it's body is usually regarded as evil and undead, even if it's a ghost of a Paladin, which I've never understood, some sort of reverse anti-materialism where the flesh is the source of all good and a nice guy's soul is a ravening undead monster 45 seconds after his heart stops beating. I'm all for the undead type being applied to various other souls and spirits, but not the arbitrary 'evil for no reason' clause, such as the einherjar called up through a Horn of Valhalla or that spell in Dwarves of Golarion that calls up a few weapon-weilding ancestral spirits to help in a fight.
Either the shadowdancer could be calling up a resident of the shadow plane, the First Worlds dark reflection, an actual spirit devoted to some neutral power (perhaps a 'shadow' of the spirit of an older shadowdancer, who has passed on, but lingers to provide advice and counsel to the new generation) or a shadow of *his own spirit,* following the Egyptian-esque notion that souls have components, and that he's learned to fragment off a bit of his own soul and send it out to enact his will, like 'astral projection' but with him staying conscious and mobile at the same time.
There's tons of potential for the 'shadow' to be not-really-undead (because it never actually died, in most of the above cases, and is an incorporeal manifestation of spirit or even some sort of outsider or dark fey) and yet still be mechanically treated as undead (just as elementals are technically outsiders, but use a different type than demons and angels). Or it could, like an Einherjar, just be a straight-up Outsider with the Incorporeal subtype. Or it could come from the 'Umbral Court' and be a Fey with the Incorporeal subtype. (Add Con score, Str scores that they can't use while Incorporeal, which is pretty much always, tweak the skills, HD, BAB & saves accordingly, and pretty much good to go.)
But even being Undead type just means that, as spiritual energy unshielded by a flesh and blood body, it's susceptible to the cleansing power of positive energy channeling, which one could characterize as rushing spirits away to their final destination, regardless of their alignment.
It's not like Positive Energy is good or anything. It's just power, power that doesn't like 'undead,' even if they are the souls of nuns, orphans and puppies. If I take the Alignment Channel feat, I can use Positive Energy to damage or heal good outsiders, or to damage or heal evil outsiders, but there is no feat that 'aligns' my Channeled energy so that it heals the angels and smites the devils any more than there's a feat that allows me to do that with fireballs.
On another note, I have finally, and after much deliberation, decided on Raven's fighting style. Since Marius has the short swords in both hands area nicely covered and because I like the idea and the image of a dark-clad shadow-jumping knife-fighter, your friendly neighborhood rogue will be dual-wielding daggers. This way, with one Weapon Focus feat he has both weapons covered, not to mention he will be able to throw them at an enemy if push comes to shove. Plus, they are light weapons, thus the penalty for two-weapon fighting will only be -2 (after the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is chosen of course).
I am growing rather fond of the elven rascal I think. :-)
And on a different note:
Loot So Far (up to the battle in the tunnels under the tailor's shop):
553 gp
180 sp
‘Fair Jerrick’s Fair Deals’ store credit (worth 500 gp)
2 small gems (worth 3 gp each)
3 wooden coins (demonic profile on one side, woman’s face on the other)
Silver holy symbol of Asmodeus (from Shanwen)
On another note, I have finally, and after much deliberation, decided on Raven's fighting style. Since Marius has the short swords in both hands area nicely covered and because I like the idea and the image of a dark-clad shadow-jumping knife-fighter, your friendly neighborhood rogue will be dual-wielding daggers. This way, with one Weapon Focus feat he has both weapons covered, not to mention he will be able to throw them at an enemy if push comes to shove. Plus, they are light weapons, thus the penalty for two-weapon fighting will only be -2 (after the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is chosen of course).
I am growing rather fond of the elven rascal I think. :-)
And on a different note:
Loot So Far (up to the battle in the tunnels under the tailor's shop):
553 gp
180 sp
‘Fair Jerrick’s Fair Deals’ store credit (worth 500 gp)
2 small gems (worth 3 gp each)
3 wooden coins (demonic profile on one side, woman’s face on the other)
Silver holy symbol of Asmodeus (from Shanwen)
I'm glad somebody is keeping track!