Brevoy Southern Reclamation Project - BS RP (Kingmaker) (Inactive)

Game Master fnord72

oh noes! rufus is angry with me!

*shivers with anticipation*

yeah... I'm a gosh durned bard, darlin'. I could tell them yer a fey prince come to impregnate men and they might believe me. I say might because this dice roller hates me.

@Kari: >P

Ok, the *shivers with anticipation* bit took my brain places I REALLY wasn't intending for it to go.
I'm blaming you. I'm not saying it was your fault, I'm just saying I'm blaming you...

Why? Coz Kari's flirted shamelessly with the lording, proven that she's easy and willing to use her sexuality to make really bad men uncomfortable?

*giggles* Is that why? :P

this is the part i like, taking advantage of unspecified conditions by the players...

I like it when I set up that a girl is evil for my players, and even though they suspect her, they bang her anyway. Casts Bleed and titters with glee, never uses her channel energy feature when people are obviously hurt, or shows her unholy symbol? Yeah, totally the right girl to get involved with.

Ooooh, the reckoning!

That's my favorite part of GMing. :P

Still here. Unless you allow aid another actions for intimidate attempts, I'm not sure what use Salvator'll be.

Aedon would take all the help he could get trying to diplomacize the bandits.

the players are welcome to become as sadistic as they want...

however, in the end, sense motive will be enough to let you know that any promises of repentance are lies.

the bandit Rufus beat up will continue to obstinate and violent at any chance he can get.

Should Happs be healed and offered, he would (too) quickly, say he was repentant, and try to take vengeance.

Provided another storm doesn't roll through, tracking the bandits back shouldn't be too difficult, especially as one of them will accidentally let slip enough information to give you a rough idea of where the camp is.

kari, i think you missed aedon calling Rufus in for this meeting...

I will be going into the woods for a week or so on a camping trip. This means that I highly doubt I will have access to internet.

I apologize for this delay in everyone's gaming schedules and I hope to be back before you know it!

P.S. If bears devour me, give a short prayer to Cayden Cailean for me eh?

I thought Kari breaking up Rufus's pity party with a smack or two would have been fun.

Wrong bad fun apparently. *sniffles*

Hrm... This is bad.. I was planning to have Salvator follow Lyster's opinion on this, but now it seems like Lyster will not be weighing in..

If there was ever a moment I wanted knowledge (religion), it'd be now.

Bother, I guess I didn't fully grasp that Lyster was already gone when he made the post.

@Kari: Some percussive compassion would have been amusing in that case. On the bright side, as I implied before, Rufus will likely be making regrettable decisions in the future & sulking about them as well.

As far as the current conversation goes, Rufus is now mainly playing devil's advocate to what he already considers to be a lost cause, he is not completely convinced at Rejin's lack of guilt but he is fairly sure the rest of the bandits are unwilling to plea in good faith.

@DM Fnord: Are the six River Freedoms respected by the 'natives' of this area?

the way I see the area outlined by your charter, there are no permanent establishments. Oleg's would be considered on the border and the closest thing to any type of permanent dwelling. And you can see how well that went for him.

As far as people go, the 'civilized' races (core) have really just been driven from the area. there are a few here and there, like Mikhail the trapper.

the bandits were really driven into this wilderness area from the more established kingdoms to the north and east. Further south are the river kingdoms, but (and I may revise this later) I see them as being pretty provincial and not much more than city-states. They control what is directly around them. They may claim considerably more, but they can only control a small area.

The area of your charter may fall into someone else's claim, but there is no control, and ownership is 9/10ths.

Rule of law and due process, as we know them today, are considerably different in fantasy worls, especially like Golarion.

The party members individually each have a charter that basically gives each of them a narrowly defined area of responsibility. Within this area, they each are judge, jury, and executioner. It is this charter that may separate you from the brigands.

Since Brevoy doesn't actually own this land, Brevoy's legal enforcement (the charters) is pretty weak. Think of age of sail privateer charters. Britain gives out a writ of privateer. this is recognized by the brits, the americans, and the french. but the spanish still call it piracy and will hang you.

Having said that, your group may wish to start thinking of how you will either individually, or collectively determine guilt or innocence. And it may be that your decisions will impact how others perceive you. wise choices and your charter is a good thing. Poor or inconsistent choices and you may be perceived as just another group of brigands engaging in a hostile takeover.

If input is needed from Lyster, I will review his posts and attempt to bot a likely response. I'm generally flexible about retroactive adjustments regarding such, provided they don't significantly impact other events.

My favorite GMing sketch

I don't think that we've done anything that would make us seem like new bandits. We've helped Svetlana and Oleg with the chores they would allow us to, and secured their little hovel.

Anyway, it's all about perspective. When we get a larger population, between the two of us bards, I doubt there will be a bad perception of us anywhere, really. History belongs to the victor and bards are great at the editorial process. Rufus could become a living god, heck, even Cayden's avatar if Kari passes her bluff check.

Can't wait till fourth level and access to alter self. Watch out, gents, you'll never know whose taggin' ya in the bum!

Salvator, upon hearing that. "I will never sleep with anything ever again.."

Awh... I was just joking. Kari would really like to know what it is to be tall. Maybe a half orc or an elf.

So Aedon has removed himself and the young bandit from the task at hand.

What is your disposition with each of the other bandits?

Coup de grace, Gizsmith will do it, no one else will.

Rufus has said he would do it, he just asked that we give them the opportunity to make peace with their gods first.

*double face palms*

not guilty of thievery, assault, kidnapping, and murder, but of ignorance and sloth, huh?

so glad Kari is having her own pity moment, or she'd totally slap rufus's s$*%.

By certain interpretations of the Six River Freedoms, those things are only crimes if you get caught for them, therefore, the real crimes are being ignorant of your target's capabilities & being too lazy to find out about them before making the attempt.

Hence ignorance & sloth.

The River Kingdoms are also called the Bandit Kingdoms for a reason...

we're brevoyans, though, here on a charter to establish brevoy's rule of law. not River Kingdoms folk.

unless we're all agreeing to ditch the charter this early in...

'course, Kari, being a bandit herself is all too eager to ditch the gov't.

FIGHT THE POWAH!

We are Brevic, but we are going to be operating in the River Kingdoms. If we want to be seen as something other than foreign invaders, we would do well to recognize that a significant portion of the population has more respect for the River Freedoms than Brevoy's 'rule of law'. Historically, River Nations (& their rulers) which respect the River Freedoms have a higher survival rate than those that ignore them.

Also, the sad fact of the matter regarding said 'rule of law' in Brevoy, is that there isn't really one there either. Otherwise Brevoy's alignment would be N or LN instead of CN.

Aye, i know this as a player but the demonstration we were all present at as characters suggests that straying from our regent's charter is going to be punished. severely.

meet the new bandits indeed.

i recommend setting up our own trade union and slowly leaching business from Oleg, establishing a monopoly and controlling the price of every good in the area by offering ours at an extremely low price.

hehehe. CN and intelligent. :)

Interesting dialogue, and one of the issues with a game that has limited information on areas of sudden and sometimes passing interest.

Please consider these as suggestive in nature. If anyone would like to expand or suggest an alternative, i'm receptive.

I am taking my information from PF Chronicles: Guide to the River Kingdoms,

The River Kingdoms is a loose federation of small political entities with variable boundaries. They have a Council where disputes trade agreements, and such are negotiated annually. Note that with the exeption of a handful, most "kingdoms are considered too transient to merit full consideration". I take this to mean that Brevoy's using patsy's (you) to explore the land south of Brevoy as being one of those transitory entities, assuming you live long enough. I'd also like to note that as far as I am concerned, the area noted as "River Kingdoms" isn't a hard border like the USA/Mexico, but more of an area outside a hard border that is inhabited to some extent (think 13 colonies, everything west of their defined border was someone else's problem).

Brevoy knows that turmoil in the River Kingdoms is an every day event. He also is working to avoid a civil war in his own country. By trying to create some buffer states, he hopes to have a few speed bumps for any invasion force.

The third Freedom is Courts are for Kings implying that "law within the River Kingdoms is malleable, and rulers of a kingdom do as they wish. In their lands, one must obey." Assuming the Stag Lord (that you know next to nothing about) was the closest thing to a local ruler, then you would be expected to follow his rules, except you are planning to usurp his position, which is also fine in the River Kingdoms. Which fits with the last Freedom You Have What You Hold. Technically, the bandits were robbing the Leveton's legally. Had they stolen the goods in the middle of the night, then their actions would be considered punishable. The book also states that the band of land on the northern border, known as the stolen lands, is not claimed by any current political entities in the River Kingdoms.

I don't consider Brevoy's CN to mean that they have no laws, or even that those laws allow anything. I see it as meaning that the laws are arbitrarily enforced, that the rich can buy their way out, etc. Generally, the laws are going to emphasis personal freedoms over social responsibility. contracts that are morally bad are still binding, or contracts may be easily voided.

So, if Brevoy said 'we are annexing the Stolen Lands.' Then it is more than likely that the River Kingdoms, especially Pitax, would band together to push out the invader. Instead they are funding private individuals to create kingdoms. Since it is not directly involved, less chance for an international incident. (Note that this is metagame knowledge as the characters are only chartered to explore, not colonize.

DM Fnord's comments pretty much fit with what I (and Aedon, to a lesser degree) think about the Stolen Lands, the Six River Freedoms, and why Brevoy sent us there in the first place.

Specifically to the Freedoms, I didn't think they were part of a codified legal system, more like A Peasant's Guide for Living in the River Kingdoms. All the governments "abide" by the Freedoms, but they have a totally separate legal system of laws and punishments as well. Point being, there isn't any evidence that shows respecting the Six River Freedoms and also having an established and orderly legal system are mutually exclusive objectives.

regarding the fourth bandit, that was the dude with the shakes i think we discussed leavin' out of the killing, but i'm not certain.

and yeah, the explore versus settle stuff is always sorta hinky. on the one hand, you get to the stag lord, kill his butt dead and take his stuff, then you look waaaaay up north and at the distance between you and new steven and get pretty uppity. most people don't look east and west at the psychos who kill other contestants in their tents so that their blood spills all over though, in case anyone forgot that :P

I recommend setting up our own trade union and slowly leaching business from Oleg, establishing a monopoly and controlling the price of every good in the area by offering ours at an extremely low price.

hehehe. CN and intelligent. :)

My problems with that idea are a) That requires being able to establish a monopoly, which requires the resources to be able to undercut the competition, which we don't have; and b) would require more time & effort from us than it would really be worth. We are adventurers not merchants.

I don't consider Brevoy's CN to mean that they have no laws, or even that those laws allow anything. I see it as meaning that the laws are arbitrarily enforced, that the rich can buy their way out, etc. Generally, the laws are going to emphasis personal freedoms over social responsibility. contracts that are morally bad are still binding, or contracts may be easily voided.

So, if Brevoy said 'we are annexing the Stolen Lands.' Then it is more than likely that the River Kingdoms, especially Pitax, would band together to push out the invader. Instead they are funding private individuals to create kingdoms. Since it is not directly involved, less chance for an international incident. (Note that this is metagame knowledge as the characters are only chartered to explore, not colonize.

I didn't mean to imply that Brevoy didn't have laws. I meant that the laws were inconsistently (or arbitrarily as you put it) enforced. As to the 'Brevoy annexing the Stolen Lands' idea, from that standpoint it is actually in Brevoy's best interest for their 'patsy's' (I.E. us) to act in ways that appear to distance them from Brevoy, so a guy who seems to use the Freedoms as his basis for decisions may well be just the sort of thing Brevoy would want. Technically, Mivon would be the RK most likely to notice our presence first, considering we are directly North of them, a fact Rufus is keeping in mind as he has people he knows there. Not to mention that as the son of an Aldori Sworldlord, Rufus is going to consider Mivon more of a concern than some jumped-up Numerian warlord who has only held power for less than five years, which is what Pitax currently has, at least to Rufus' mind.

Specifically to the Freedoms, I didn't think they were part of a codified legal system, more like A Peasant's Guide for Living in the River Kingdoms. All the governments "abide" by the Freedoms, but they have a totally separate legal system of laws and punishments as well. Point being, there isn't any evidence that shows respecting the Six River Freedoms and also having an established and orderly legal system are mutually exclusive objectives.

Related to my responce to DM Fnord's post, I don't mean to imply that following the Freedoms precludes having an established & orderly legal system, Rufus spent the last few years of his life in Liberthane, which is ruled by a Paladin, not an ex-Paladin, so he knows it is possible. When Rufus made the pronouncement he made, he was implying he knew the 'laws of the land' so-to-speak as well as they did & he had no intention of making the mistakes they had.

my suggestion was more of a joke.

in my TT I was the only player who gave a damn that our country had codified anything other than laws. I built a whole cult of personality around our party fighter to have our citizens look to his example as an ideal.

i built Kari to be spymaster or assassin and keep us in the clear in terms of good versus bad acts by creative editing of our history. Like no one needs to know that Rufus beats up men who have no possibility of fighting back. no one is going to be looking to Kari as a shining example of virtues a citizen should have.

Rule of law stuff is a lot bit beyond us at the moment as aside from a few factions that can get along with each other, we haven't even coalesced as a group yet.

Baby steps.

One thing I will reward in various ways is meaningful conversation about how to define what will be acceptable in the kingdom building. The rewards won't be much use combat wise to avoid unbalancing any characters that have players less inclined to take part, but I will work to make sure it is rewarding for those that do.

Rufus looks to be wanting to develop a lawful system, something that would certainly stand out in these parts, and would have it's on pro's and con's.

Kari looks to be a bit more chaotic in her outlook.

And Aedon also seems to be lawfully inclined for a kingdom, though his definition is varied from Rufus.

Haven't heard much from the others on these points.

I built Kari to be spymaster or assassin and keep us in the clear in terms of good versus bad acts by creative editing of our history. Like no one needs to know that Rufus beats up men who have no possibility of fighting back.

.

She is never going to let him live that down is she?

Good.

@GM: actually, Rufus doesn't really give a fig about Law per-se. But he has enough experience on the borders of Galt to know the very real difference between what someone is accused of & what they actually did. Rufus, being a follower of Milani, cares about giving people hope & in the Stolen Lands giving people hope basically means showing mercy as well as law.

Yes, he also does things like beat a man to unconsciousness when interrogating him because he didn't want to kill him outright (which is what he threatened to do) when the guy decides to try playing silly buggers. Chaotic with Wisdom as effective dump stat.

Nope.

Kari aint gonna wear filthy rapist rags, either. She already picked up beat up armor so she doesn't look so far outta place, but that's the extent of her willingness to pretend for ya'll.

I imagine save for the hair and smellin' good for the most part, Kari looks like a bandit, anyway... She's not the type of bard that is really in it for the fashion statements.

I view Kari's CN as she has nothing driving her to be actively good. Clerics have gods with dogmas they need to appease to keep their status. Kari's just a bard. She hates bad guys, and will avoid being deliberately evil (keeping her lets torture these POSs as thoughts in her head and not actively indulging them). Maybe she'll find some reason to be good. Dunno. For now I shrug.

No worries, I will have to do some more reading to better incorporate your background. For now it shouldn't be an issue, going south far enough to run until much later.

Related to my responce to DM Fnord's post, I don't mean to imply that following the Freedoms precludes having an established & orderly legal system, Rufus spent the last few years of his life in Liberthane, which is ruled by a Paladin, not an ex-Paladin, so he knows it is possible. When Rufus made the pronouncement he made, he was implying he knew the 'laws of the land' so-to-speak as well as they did & he had no intention of making the mistakes they had.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I didn't get that from your earlier posts so I appreciate the explanation. Given that, I'm pretty confident Aedon and Rufus can reach some level of understanding about how the laws should be handled. I'm beginning to think Aedon and Rufus are talking past each other rather than to each other. Time will tell.

I would also say that Aedon is absolutely inclined to have a lawful system in place. He has grown up in a family where contracts rule just about every aspect of their business. In that way, his LN alignment is a very accurate description of his personality.

And mercy is fine within the law, but Aedon would argue that people who commit certain crimes do not deserve it. Giving people hope is fine, but Aedon would argue that providing a safe environment for citizens is just as important. A significant part of which is the imposition and continued vigilance regarding enforcing a consistent set of laws and punishments. But that said, not every punishment needs to be execution either, there are a variety of different ways to deal with criminals. Justice is only partially interested in punishing the guilty, it is just as interested in deterring anybody else from committing the same crime.

At this point in time, Oleg has most minor basic goods from the core book. Weapons and armor are spotty (I will roll). Anything more than $50g has a minor chance of being available, anything over $500 isn't available and will need to be ordered.

Keep in mind that the outpost doesn't even count as a thorp, even though there has been a sudden population increase of 50%, from 2 to 3 residents.

Oleg will grudgingly send any requests for more expensive items back to Brevoy for sale or purchase.

Did I get a volunteer to track group loot? Rufus should be asking the other characters if he can have the bow, instead of the GM. GM would give it to the character with the worst str/dex. :)

i can keep it in a google doc linked to my alias if ya'll would like.

I'll do group loot unless somebody else wants it.

I work in finance and I'm a sucker for a new Excel file. :)

I'm pretty confident Aedon and Rufus can reach some level of understanding about how the laws should be handled. I'm beginning to think Aedon and Rufus are talking past each other rather than to each other. Time will tell.

I would also say that Aedon is absolutely inclined to have a lawful system in place. He has grown up in a family where contracts rule just about every aspect of their business. In that way, his LN alignment is a very accurate description of his personality.

Aedon is LN? That makes a bit more sense. I think I read somewhere in your write-up that he was some alignment other than that & his statements & actions seemed kind of off as a consequence.

And mercy is fine within the law, but Aedon would argue that people who commit certain crimes do not deserve it. Giving people hope is fine, but Aedon would argue that providing a safe environment for citizens is just as important. A significant part of which is the imposition and continued vigilance regarding enforcing a consistent set of laws and punishments. But that said, not every punishment needs to be execution either, there are a variety of different ways to deal with criminals. Justice is only partially interested in punishing the guilty, it is just as interested in deterring anybody else from committing the same crime.

Rufus doesn't disagree there, his disagreements, if you will go back & check, have always been that we don't know that they committed the crimes we haven't witnessed them committing.

Rufus has witnessed mob rule & trial-by-heresay, it's not pretty. That said, I don't see a reason why Aedon & Rufus can't work together either, Rufus will just frequently be the one arguing the other side of things when we have the time to argue.

I vote our first edict is to legalize prostitution and recreational drugs.

Then we regulate them and tax the crap out of those who indulge, just like cigarettes and alcohol, coz we all know how well that works, right? Right?

I'm with you, Aedon took Svetlana and Oleg's word when they identified the bandits and went with it. After some confirmation from Rejin and the injured one that they were indeed members of the bandit group, that was enough for him.

Either way, Aedon would definitely agree with you re: mob-rule, etc. He isn't really a hardcore law guy either, but if there is a law, it has to be followed.

I figure he'll be the one taking his time to examine any agreements or treaties the group is asked to sign. He'll want to make sure the other side didn't slip something into the "small print" at the bottom of the page when nobody was looking.

I vote our first edict is to legalize prostitution and recreational drugs.

Then we regulate them and tax the crap out of those who indulge, just like cigarettes and alcohol, coz we all know how well that works, right? Right?

Actually, it does. Maybe not the 'tax the crap out of' part, but legalizing it & making certain it is regulated and required to pay for it's own 'upkeep' as-it-were works much better than just criminalizing it completely.

Or was that another 'sort of a joke' comments?

Nope.

Keep the calistrians out of our brothels. Crazy bee goddess cultists who enjoy backstabbing should not be encouraged to come stay.

There's only one backstabbing slut in this kingdom, and it's gonna be me! Wait.. wait, allow me to rephrase that...

As I recall from the rules, there's still prostitution if you don't have brothels, it just isn't regulated, which means girls get hurt etc etc. It's the one aspect of the economy and society that Kari will take a really active interest in. Just like we can't all grow up to be president and someone has to pick up the garbage and dig ditches, there are some girls who won't ever be bards, but that doesn't mean they should be treated like crap.

The drugs thing is more of a precaution. Can't have our youngin's going into the fey infested forest looking for a high and coming across our random encounters now, can we?

I would argue that we let the Calistrian's in so they can keep the Gyronna cultist's out. Trust me, if you think the wasp girls are bad, they have nothing on the Hag-wanna-be's.

"You didn't tip me enough so I'm gonna make sure you can't f--k anything for a month" is a lot better to deal with than "You won't have anything to do with me 'cause I'm a crazy b---h, so I'm going to bring your entire town down around your ears."

Also, who says the only brothels are Calistrian? A partnership of like-minded business women who like the idea of not having to be out in the cold (remember, the River Kingdoms are still pretty far north compared to much of Avistan) & having back-up in case the customers start getting 'overly-frisky' sounds like a good idea to me...

As far as the drugs thing goes, well yeah, keeping the kids out of the fae forests is probably a good idea, not to mention there are much worse things than just your average fae in some of those forests...

Just my two cp.

Kari's not that versed in religion to worry about cultists of Gyronna before the reveal their stupid hag faces.

Calistrians have their own information networks, b*tchy little bees. Information is not something we should be competing for.

Rufus knows of Gyronna because she is a local deity for the River Kingdoms & her priest(es)hood likes to brag they were responsible for the destruction of an entire RK (to be fair it was a small one).

Oleg offered to hold any gear you don't want to have with you. So I will assume that unless specifically claimed or noted, any 'group loot' is left at the trading post.

Just a quick post to let you know I'll be back tomorrow. Thank god for random internet spots.

And just a quick note to let you guys know I'm catching up and working on a post now.

Damn, this game exploded while I was at table...

*sniffles*

ummm... i'll post sometime this morning, and since most of ya'll are in america, it probably won't matter much.