Yeah, it is pretty cool. Also suuuuuper dangerous.
I have some ideas about how to mitigate the risks, but we're going to have a conversation in game just to be sure everyone's on the same page.
Our encounter with more dangerous undead has made clear that we should allocate the magic weapons we have out to different characters.
It doesn't have to be a permanent decision on who gets what, but we should make sure we aren't stuck figuring it out in the middle of a battle.
Ok, so I want to have an out-of-game discussion about the Shadow-
I want to be sure this is something we want as a group. Controlling a Shadow is pretty much the win-condition for low level necromancers. It's awesome to the point of maybe being game breaking. It has the potential to make the game itself less challenging for a while, and also to make individual characters feel obsolete.
Having an incorporeal, nigh-invisible, minion makes scouting pretty easy. Encounters against animals, plants, humanoids, oozes, aberrations and many outsiders are going to become trivial. To make matters worse, Shadows propagate, and because they obey the shadow that created them, Grey could control a lot of them through controlling the first one.
In addition tot he out of game concerns, there's also the in-game issue of this being really dangerous. If your character is the sort that feels this might be a bad idea, I want you to know that Grey is thinking the sam thing, and could be convinced this is more trouble than it is worth.
So, please speak up if you have concerns. I want to hear them and talk about them, and I don't want to go ahead with this unless we are all on the same page.
Brok's favored enemy is undead so he is in the no bueno camp.
What kind of dangers? Can you be more specific? I'd also be interested to know what kind of relationship Keil would have with the shadow as Keil would have ties to the shadow plane.
Once per day it makes a new save (50/50) to get free and try to kill us.
Once per day it makes a new save (50/50) to get free and try to kill us.
This is true, but mitigated by doing a new Channel energy every day, and commanding the shadow to submit to the power ("voluntarily" failing it's save) and effectively resetting the timer.
This breaks down if I ever run out of channels, but since I only use them for command undead and occasional undead healing, I don't foresee this being an issue. If I'm killed or petrified or something for longer than a day, it could put the rest of you at risk (which is why the shadow is under orders to destroy itself before that could happen).
Brok's favored enemy is undead so he is in the no bueno camp.
A bounty hunter with Favored Enemy Human isnt necessarily against being around humans. It just means they are good at hunting them down and killing them too.
Brok might be personally very anti-undead, but the class ability doesn't force that.
Grey is a Necromancer, so this is going to continue to come up (particularly past level 5). Grey recognizes that undead are dangerous weapons, so having Brok around as insurance is something he likes a lot. We should probably have a discussion about this in game.
What kind of dangers? Can you be more specific? I'd also be interested to know what kind of relationship Keil would have with the shadow as Keil would have ties to the shadow plane.
Intelligent undead are notoriously dangerous to control they can "interpret" commands in the ways that best suit them, and do things of their own volition if they aren't commanded not to. I was in a game once when a Cleric managed to control a Vampire, and it still bit him because he hadn't commanded it not to.
A shadow only has a 6 intelligence, so it probably isn't going to be able to pull a fast one on us, but it is a possibility. I think Grey's commands should do to keep it in line.
Also, an enemy necromancer becomes way more dangerous if they can wrest control of a couple shadows from me. I have some contingency plans for this, but nothing is foolproof.
As for Kiel specifically, I have everyone in the party the ability to command the shadow, so Kiel could certainly use the Shadow as a scouting tool.
Brok has it correct here. Once a day the shadow will get a Will save with a 50/50 chance of breaking it. Like Praetor says, a high risk/high reward move. And sorry Praetor I think a command to order it to fail a save or sending it into sunlight to destroy itself would be considered a suicidal command and would trigger an immediate Will save. Your other commands make sense here...once thing Praetor would realize that enemy clerics could try to wrest control of the shadow from him.
As I am also playing Raaz here, I will stay neutral in this debate. I will say this: Rappan Athuk is a dangerous place and you will need all the help you can get here.
Nothing in the control undead spell grants the shadow the ability to speak. It understands commands in any language, but it has no known languages in the prd.
If it does have a language, there wouldn't be a guarantee one of us can speak it.
It's incorporeal and probably won't set off traps.
It's perception is mediocre.
I don't think it makes a very good scout.
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Varg is not really a big fan of undead, controlled or uncontrolled. However, that is Grey's forte and purpose, so he will work with it.
I have no problem with the Shadow. As mentioned before, at level 4, Varg will be able to damage the shadow with his fists as he will have the ki which will enable him to overcome DR Magic.
Nothing in the control undead spell grants the shadow the ability to speak. It understands commands in any language, but it has no known languages in the prd....If it does have a language, there wouldn't be a guarantee one of us can speak it.
I agree with Brok. Although the PRD does not get into the creature speaking, it doesn't say an intelligent undead won't respond either. I'd interpret this as the shadow only understands Grey as the spell grants the caster the ability to communicate with the creature in any language. There's no mention of anyone else gaining that ability. Someone other than Grey wishing to communicate with the shadow will have to speak it's language, whatever that is, or use Grey to interpret.
Perception +8 isn't bad; Keil only has +9 :( I'm willing to play the odds; the more rolls we have the better our odds of finding something, but this will only last so long. The same odds say we will eventually have to put the shadow down.
I still haven't decided if Keil will see this as a good thing, since shadows come from his domain, or a bad thing since it has "no goals or outwardly visible motivations other than to sap life and vitality from living beings". I think shadows would just as soon hunt a Kayal as it would anything else living. With that in mind, Keil is probably very wary of this thing and would have some knowledge of it. I'll make a check in gameplay, maybe Keil will know what language the shadow uses.
I've been trying to play Keil as trusting no one, however Grey worships a common deity (Hel, right?) and that would score a point or two but not as many as Brok's got ;) I'll let Keil's greed win him over, should the shadow produce results.
Here's the data block on shadows.
Languages: Common is listed. They have a language, are intelligent, and they are not listed as mute, so it seems like they could speak. The unofficial errata linked if james jacobs being asked about that.
Regardless, it seems like the consensus is that this is too risky. I'm fine with that. We can destroy it.
Can't go into long winded posts, but my vote is definitely to keep it. This place is tough as can be, and I am sure we will need the extra 'oomph'. Also, scouting through walls and doors? Come on. It is amazing.
Also, I like to see the Necromancer in actual play, so I say live with a little risk people, we stand to gain a lot in my opinion.
Sorry out yesterday. Also.
My parents are coming to stay for the week. So the wife and I are taking a staycation. We will be doing stuff around the house and hitting the beach and stuff with them so my posting will be spotty and way down from my normal rate till next Friday.
So I will catch up today, but my posting may go down to once a day probably at night once I can hop on and check.
Here's the official paizo stat block for Shadows
No language listed.
Yours is the d20pfsrd stat block which added a language as a house rule from James Jacobs.
I don't know if the developers meant for it to talk or not, but they didn't put it in the bestiary and they have had opportunities to errata it since.
My general opinion of command undead is that it shouldn't be a better class feature than a mount or animal companion would be.
@Grey: Actually I see the consensus accepting the shadow, no need to destroy it just yet.
There are more ways to communicate than just verbal, each posing interesting role playing opportunities. Its up to Komm as to which source is accepted, D20 or the PRD and how the shadow will communicate as it is certainly intelligent enough to do so.
The game will certainly get more interesting (not that it's not already!) with a shadow in the group due to the fact we don't know if or when it will turn. The shadow can still be played as an animal companion, using language barriers and misunderstanding (lost in translation) to either benefit the group or lead it astray.
The one thing I don't like is:
"Each day while the sun is high you shall submit yourself to my control, reminding me if I somehow forget to reassert my dominance over your through the power of my Goddess. Should I be unable to renew my control, you shall go to the surface and allow yourself to be destroyed in the sunlight before my control over you wanes."
Ordering an intelligent creature to go destroy itself shouldn't go down well. It's almost worth another will save. It should be Grey's responsibility to remember to renew the command (and I'm sure he will) and if he forgets, we will weep the consequences and I'm ok with that.
Since the shadow has an INT score I will rule the shadow does indeed understand Common, and can speak it to a degree. Consider a creature so succumbed by hate and evil the only thought is to destroy the living. and has basically 'forgotten' to speak. Needless to say I don't think you will have detailed conversations with it though Praetor will have the best chance to understand it due to his link with it.
Ordering an intelligent creature to go destroy itself shouldn't go down well. It's almost worth another will save. It should be Grey's responsibility to remember to renew the command (and I'm sure he will) and if he forgets, we will weep the consequences and I'm ok with that.
That's pretty much exactly what my plan was. Renew the control every day, before it's daily save, to "reset the timer" and make sure that as long as I can channel it never gets an escape attempt.
The "go kill yourself before my control lapses" thing was my idea of a failsafe in case I wasn't able to renew my control for some reason. (I'm hoping that never happens)
Yes, it would grant the shadow a second save at the time it was compelled to kill itself, but since this kicks in when it would get it's daily save to escape anyway, I figured it didn't matter much.
Since the shadow has an INT score I will rule the shadow does indeed understand Common, and can speak it to a degree. Consider a creature so succumbed by hate and evil the only thought is to destroy the living. and has basically 'forgotten' to speak. Needless to say I don't think you will have detailed conversations with it though Praetor will have the best chance to understand it due to his link with it.
This is great. It might not be very talkative, but if it can understand language then it means the rest of the group will be able to command it as well. That turns it into more of a party asset, rather than just a potentially disastrous weapon that only listens to me.
Thanks.
Happy Independence Day!...for all USA players only he he.
Here's the way I figure-
If a Channel has a 24 hour duration before an intelligent undead gets a new saving throw, and a necromancer is willing to throw a new channel at an undead before that time is up, there's no way an undead should ever get to that 24 hour mark.
A smart player can find work arounds to make sure it can't successfully resist.
Even if a Charisma check is required, and I fail it, I'd still know that unless the Shadow out-bluffs me.
Even if I get bluffed into thinking it didn't resist me when it actually did, I can check that by asking "did you resist my power?" and it would have to answer truthfully (unless you think that would require a charisma check too).
As long as I have an extra channel or two to throw at this every day, I don't think it will be able to get that daily save.
Do I have this wrong?
Actually, according to THIS thread:
Once they are under your control they stay that way until:
1) You release them OR,
2) The number of HD you control exceeds your necromancer level OR,
3) Intelligent Undead get a new saving throw to break free each day, so if they make their save.
So once you have control of the undead, re-channeling has no effect on the undead UNLESS you release them. Then you may channel again (and hope they fail the Will save).
And according to THIS and THIS thread:
I believe the Command Undead feat does not have a duration. Mindless undead are your slaves forever, intelligent undead are your friends until they make the save.
They are permanently controlled, until they make their save (intelligent), somone else takes control by feat or spell, they are destroyed, or you let them go (willingly, or by overloading the HD limit of what you can control).
So in essence, the shadow is controlled by you until either you release it or it makes its save. In other words there is no need to re-channel the undead at all.
Neither of those thread say that re-channeling has no effect, but I'll go with that. It's your game and this makes things interesting.
At least we know a fight is coming every 24 hours and can prepare for it.
Might have to have Raaz take Command Undead too. That way we can just pass control back and forth to reset the timer on intelligent undead.
Bah! Bailing out on us are ya?! I never trusted the shadowy fetchling....
On a more serious note - enjoy your travels! :D
Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I’ll be traveling to Germany for the next week and will have limited connectivity. Bot me as needed.
Yeah Governor is closing offices at Noon under state of emergency. We had/have plans to travel this weekend so if the the Tropical Storm / Supposed to be Hurricane when it makes landfall tonight leaves us without power you may not hear from me for a few days :)
How closely are we tracking encumbrance?
I've put Keil's name down to some items in the loot list - I hope that's alright. If there are any objections from the group, let me know and we can erase it but I think it would be useful to start dividing up the loot at some point in the near future before Arlok drowns in weight.
Actually you have the two orc hirelings/warriors that are lugging around all this loot you have discovered so I have not worried about it too closely. Of course if your hirelings decide to desert on you, or end up getting slain, then it might become an issue :P
Feel free to take items from the loot list and put them on your character sheets. Just be sure you indicate on the Loot list what items you claimed. Once I get a chance I'll go ahead and audit the loot list and clean it up.
OK I went ahead and cleaned up the Loot List. I consolidated all of the coins into their own cells, and removed any items from the list that I saw recorded on your profile.
Please review the Loot list and notate what magic items/weapons you claim on both the list and on your profile. Once I have reviewed the List I will first verify they are notated on your profile and then remove the items from the Loot List.
I had already added Grezzor's name to some of the items in the loot list - I have also added them to my HL character file. Will update the profile on the alias as soon as possible.
I will take some other stuff if no one picks it up (like the holy water), but for now I'm good.
If only there were any small enemies in this dungeon ....
Thanks for that Komm. I've updated Keil's profile with those items I put his name beside. I will try to add up his character wealth later to make sure he's not getting a lion's share but there is still a lot of items there for the others :) I added the light maces (+1 and silver headed) to Keil as no one else seems to want to use them. The rapier he confiscated from the bandit leader (forget his name) and he had been using the quarterstaff as a walking stick.
Who else is using a bow? There are 4 +1 arrows on the list and a +1 Comp Long bow...anyone?
Most of you have daggers listed, there is a +1 dagger and a silver dagger up for grabs.
I'll take a silver dagger.
If we have unclaimed gear, would anyone mind if I gave something to our orcs as rewards?
There rewards are their lives.
All our combat-types should have silver and cold iron weapons.
You're right Malzii, I'm gonna grab a CLW pot also ;). Marked on the loot List.
If no one else is going to use the +1 longsword, Brok will carry it around like some sort of goblin greatsword, taking the -2 penalty.
(a net -1 to hit is probably worth an average +2 damage ... it's like power attack)
He'll also take a vial of holy water.
OK Loot list updated. Please mark whatever loot you claimed on your character sheet and then I will remove it from the Loot List.
We have a nicely embroidered bag in the loot list - we can put the gold dust there? ;)
EDIT: Komm, the 'golden wand encrusted with pearls' is not magical, is it?
Grezzor: Yes in answer to the first question, No in response to the second question.