Aubrey's Eberron campaign. (Inactive)

Game Master Aubrey the Malformed

Ah, you already looked, didn't you? Just a question - did you even understand what Montalve was complaining about? I could understand (though I completely disagree with every single word) what Disenchanter was saying, but Montalve... No such luck.

Funny thing is, some guy in the thread congratulated everyone in it for being rational and polite. If listening to Disenchanter rambling about how crappy clerics are and have always been is what passes for "rational" discourse on the Pathfinder thread, I'm glad I stayed away.

I just sort of skimmed the thread and skipped a lot of the posts, though I did read Montalves and Disenchanters initial comments / complaints, and yes, I did catch the one where whoever it was congratulated.

Regarding the latter, I kind of get where he’s coming from, yeah, I’m not sure about rational, but it’s certainly one of those threads that could have quickly degenerated into name calling and poo flinging (for no good reason), and it hasn’t done that, nor has it been sm*rfed or slaaded or Jacked etc.

I think I understand Montalve (though I don’t agree with what he has to say). It basically boils down to “domains have gone from how they worked in beta to closer to how they worked in 3.5, therefore clerics suck, clerics are my favourite class, they now suck, therefore I will not be playing PFRPG.”

Disenchanter … I’ve very rarely ever seen an argument he’s put forward that I agree with. On any topic. And he doesn’t come across as the sort of guy who will let his mind be easily changed, no matter what evidence is presented. However, lately he seems to be making an effort to stay polite and not get drawn into slinging matches, so I have to give him that. I may not personally agree with his thoughts on clerics and whether they’re now better or worse or whatever, but the changes obviously don’t suit his playing style and I can respect that.

Sorry I haven't been around much - both work and World of Warcraft being particularly compelling at the moment. And the site has been a bastard over the last few days. Getting back into it now.

Regarding conversions - the one feature in the Beta I really didn't like was the clerics' energy channeling, but after reading the cleric thread it sounds like Paizo has returned to the tried and true domain formula. With that, the last reservation I might have had towards conversion is gone.

PS: Don't bother reading the thread itself, as it is mostly ill-articulated whining. I only read it as I was bored at work, but even then I wish I hadn't...

Thanks for the warning. I generally don't look at the threads, but that was one I might have sought out. I don't think they totally nerfed the channel energy ability from the beta, but they do appear to have made significant changes to the domains. I don't have the link to the actual post, but I thought Jason made a pretty strong effort to explain what had changed from the Beta compared to some of the descriptions for earlier iconics where he seemed to intentionally leave the reader hanging. Not that I had a problem with either approach -- I can see the merits of each from the publisher/designer point of view.

I am glad to hear you like the changes. Hopefully, the finished product is an improvement on all fronts. We don't need to be going backwards...

I don't think they totally nerfed the channel energy ability from the beta, but they do appear to have made significant changes to the domains. I don't have the link to the actual post, but I thought Jason made a pretty strong effort to explain what had changed from the Beta compared to some of the descriptions for earlier iconics where he seemed to intentionally leave the reader hanging. Not that I had a problem with either approach -- I can see the merits of each from the publisher/designer point of view.

Jason made some very good points about why things were changed, demonstrating yet again why Paizo is head and shoulders above the competition. And the Beta channel energy was far, far too powerful. Seriously, if an evil cleric can stand behind his wall of zombies and unleash blast after blast of negative energy that hurts all living things and heals his own minions and a good cleric can do the converse, then fights will be determined by who has more iterations of channel energy left. One effect is OK, but both are over the top - it feels more like Exalted than anything else.

I think I understand Montalve (though I don’t agree with what he has to say). It basically boils down to “domains have gone from how they worked in beta to closer to how they worked in 3.5, therefore clerics suck, clerics are my favourite class, they now suck, therefore I will not be playing PFRPG.”

The way I read it was that he felt that Beta domain powers were "gifts from your god" while 3.x and PF domain powers are merely "powers and extra spells", and that this change in fluff (and he kept repeating that it is all about fluff; at least Disenchanter was unhappy with the rule mechanics) is the deal-breaker that made it impossible for him to get into PF. To which I can only say 'heh?' . But I might have been misled by his incomprehensible writing style.

I started reading that thread but I only had the patience to get to the third page last night. I like the changes they made to the cleric but then again I haven’t played much with the Pathfinder rules yet. I’d rather wait for the final rules before proceeding.

We need to be thinking about Heathy’s domain choices for Rodergo as the date of the release draws near. One of them, Exorcism, doesn’t appear in the beta and will probably not be in the final draft. Since it appears they pulled back on special abilities for clerics, except for those at 1st and 8th levels, I can see a character with the Exorcism domain getting the Turn Outsider feat from the beta rules for free at 1st-level. Don’t have a suggestion about the 8th-level ability but then again Rodergo isn’t at that level. Although I have seen some suggested conversions for missing domains posted in one of the Paizo threads.

So, just thinking about hypothetical conversion further, only the core classes would convert, correct? The other classes would basically remain as they are, subject to the redefinition of feats, abilities, etc.?

I guess that would depend on the relative power levels. I understand that the beguiler is considered to be a reasonable class in 3.5 terms. It might be worth checking it out in comparison to the new version of the sorcerer to see if there might need to be any changes, but I suspect they would be minor if necessary at all. But with added feats and so on it will improve anyway.

I guess that would depend on the relative power levels. I understand that the beguiler is considered to be a reasonable class in 3.5 terms. It might be worth checking it out in comparison to the new version of the sorcerer to see if there might need to be any changes, but I suspect they would be minor if necessary at all. But with added feats and so on it will improve anyway.

That's what I was thinking -- that the non-core classes were more "powerful" than the core, so the plan was to bring the core up to par with the non-core.

Part of my question was what to compare to. It makes sense to use the spontaneous arcane caster, I suppose. Might be good to look at the core skills character, too. OK, so I've got a plan. I just need to get my hands on the final rules. <drumming fingers on tabletop> Oh, this is going to be a long wait, isn't it? </drumming fingers on tabletop>

Yes - the beguiler is a sort of rogue/sorcerer. I would say that it is probably fairly balanced as such except that it is unclear what impact the restriction on spells (effectively, only illusions and enchantments) might have, especially as a large number of the spells are non-core. Could be tricky, and suggests that maybe we have a watching brief and see how Gil operates compared with the others before we leap to any conclusions.

Yes - the beguiler is a sort of rogue/sorcerer. I would say that it is probably fairly balanced as such except that it is unclear what impact the restriction on spells (effectively, only illusions and enchantments) might have, especially as a large number of the spells are non-core. Could be tricky, and suggests that maybe we have a watching brief and see how Gil operates compared with the others before we leap to any conclusions.

A "watching brief"? I'm fine with letting her run as-is (hopefully with the always-welcome improvement of hit points, of course) until some later date. Is that what you mean?

(Yes, I'm way, way, way outside my reasonable posting window, in case you were wondering.)

A "watching brief"? I'm fine with letting her run as-is (hopefully with the always-welcome improvement of hit points, of course) until some later date. Is that what you mean?

(Yes, I'm way, way, way outside my reasonable posting window, in case you were wondering.)

Yes - and go to bed.

AinvarG wrote:

A "watching brief"? I'm fine with letting her run as-is (hopefully with the always-welcome improvement of hit points, of course) until some later date. Is that what you mean?

(Yes, I'm way, way, way outside my reasonable posting window, in case you were wondering.)

Yes - and go to bed.

Heh - now it's time to get up!!

Hey Mothman-

I know LB doesn't have 2nd level spells yet, but check this one out from Forge of War:

Smite of Sacred Fire
Evocation (Good)
Level: Paladin 2
Components: V, DF
Casting Time: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round / level

Have to cast with a Smite attempt, grants 2d6 extra damage. You keep doing an extra 2d6 damage as long as you keep attacking the same target until the spells ends or you completely miss the target with all of your attacks in a round.

That is some serious smiting.

That is some serious smiting.

Goddamn! And a swift action to cast!

I was also looking for stuff to help Runzyl out during the duel. Ghost Armor and Ghost weapon seem like sure things, but they are both cleric spells. Both grant Ghost Touch for 1 round per level and and 2nd (armor) and 3rd (weapon) level spells.

From today I have a friend in town. I'm around, but less so.

Friday - Sun we will be on an island with no net connection.

Move things along at any point you need and npc Ez, Illes & Da'gret freely. Don't wait on me.

Hey, Aubrey, one of the changes they seem to be making for 4e Eberron dragonmarks is that anyone can take them now. (Reminds me of Birthright’s bloodlines). Will you be adopting that change for this campaign? Can Lightbringer suddenly manifest a Mark of Sentinel or Gil a Mark of Shadow if they so desire? Just curious.

Don't worry ithuriel, Ez will be in good hands. "What's that you say, Farlowe? You wish to take point in the dungeon. Go ahead."

OK, folks. Assuming she gets to pull off that spell, Gil should be able to sell ice to Eskimos, but I'm really not sure what to sell the commander, if he will even listen. Ideas?

Hey Mothman-

I know LB doesn't have 2nd level spells yet, but check this one out from Forge of War:

Smite of Sacred Fire
Evocation (Good)
Level: Paladin 2
Components: V, DF
Casting Time: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round / level

Have to cast with a Smite attempt, grants 2d6 extra damage. You keep doing an extra 2d6 damage as long as you keep attacking the same target until the spells ends or you completely miss the target with all of your attacks in a round.

That is some serious smiting.

That's some good sh*t! Exorcist of the Silver Flame slows down my spell casting progression a bit, so it'll probably be a bit yet before I can cast 2nd level spells, but I'll keep that one in mind if Aubs allows it.

The non-Valenar could surrender their weapons as a sign of peace and our good intentions while staying in Taer Valaestas and/or Rolund could stay behind with the commander to avoid causing any more trouble.

Sorry for the lack of posting, been busy at work and home, and every time over the past few days I checked the thread it seemed like there was another 25 new posts ... a bit daunting to catch up on.

OK, folks. Assuming she gets to pull off that spell, Gil should be able to sell ice to Eskimos, but I'm really not sure what to sell the commander, if he will even listen. Ideas?

I cross posted with you, suggesting essentially that we be given a fair trial, and making an offer to help catch the real bad guys. If you can adjust his attitude up to Friendly or Helpful you can probably convince him easily enough to let us go about our business without making any particular concessions.

Let's assume, worse case, he was Hostile when he ordered us out of the city. If he's willing to listen to LB, that should being him back up to Indifferent. Some fast talking by Gil after that should bring him to Friendly or even Helpful ... assuming he's willing to listen.

AinvarG wrote:

OK, folks. Assuming she gets to pull off that spell, Gil should be able to sell ice to Eskimos, but I'm really not sure what to sell the commander, if he will even listen. Ideas?

I cross posted with you, suggesting essentially that we be given a fair trial, and making an offer to help catch the real bad guys. If you can adjust his attitude up to Friendly or Helpful you can probably convince him easily enough to let us go about our business without making any particular concessions.

Let's assume, worse case, he was Hostile when he ordered us out of the city. If he's willing to listen to LB, that should being him back up to Indifferent. Some fast talking by Gil after that should bring him to Friendly or even Helpful ... assuming he's willing to listen.

I can certainly try. Too bad that spell only affects bluffs "to conceal the truth." I was intending to use it for a Diplomacy buff, actually.

Hey, Aubrey, one of the changes they seem to be making for 4e Eberron dragonmarks is that anyone can take them now. (Reminds me of Birthright’s bloodlines). Will you be adopting that change for this campaign? Can Lightbringer suddenly manifest a Mark of Sentinel or Gil a Mark of Shadow if they so desire? Just curious.

Don't worry ithuriel, Ez will be in good hands. "What's that you say, Farlowe? You wish to take point in the dungeon. Go ahead."

That's actually a cool idea.

Sorry for the lack of posting, been busy at work and home, and every time over the past few days I checked the thread it seemed like there was another 25 new posts ... a bit daunting to catch up on.

I wouldn't know, I've been the same way. I think my wife's getting better, although today was a hard day.

Green Giant wrote:

Hey, Aubrey, one of the changes they seem to be making for 4e Eberron dragonmarks is that anyone can take them now. (Reminds me of Birthright’s bloodlines). Will you be adopting that change for this campaign? Can Lightbringer suddenly manifest a Mark of Sentinel or Gil a Mark of Shadow if they so desire? Just curious.

Don't worry ithuriel, Ez will be in good hands. "What's that you say, Farlowe? You wish to take point in the dungeon. Go ahead."

That's actually a cool idea.

Sounds difficult to adapt or whatever, IDK, but it sounds cool.

I'm not convinced, personally - I suspect there are no real mechanical reasons preventing anyone manifesting a dragonmark, but I would need to be convinced by the fluff. My 4e Eberron Players' Guide is winging its way to me from Amazon, so we shall see.

Hey Mothy, have you seen the paladin prequel in the blog? That's a pretty powerful class....

Hey Mothy, have you seen the paladin prequel in the blog? That's a pretty powerful class....

I hadn't seen it yet, either. Thanks for the heads-up.

Hey Mothy, have you seen the paladin prequel in the blog? That's a pretty powerful class....

That is a badass paladin.

I see myself playing that class again.

Hudak's going to learn the lawful good ways. ;)

It struck me as somewhat OTT, but then it depends on what the other classes are like, I suppose.

Redotting the thread.

Also, I like the new paladin. It's seriously tough, but no more so than the new ranger or barbarian.

I’ve glanced at it, it looks fairly badass. Hard to tell based on the information we’ve got so far if its unbalanced compared to the other classes, but certainly a few extra tricks over the 3.5 paladin. But then all the classes seem to have received moderate to serious power-ups.

If it is over the top, its probably directly due to all the whining you get about how no-one wants to play a 3.5 paladin, which basically comes down to two issues; people have problems with the alignment / code of conduct issue and people are disappointed that the paladin is not a good a fighter as, well, the fighter (or conversely not as good at being a cleric as the cleric).

I don’t know, personally I don’t have much of an issue with the 3.5 paladin; they hold their own in combat and have some nice tricks up their sleeves in the form of special abilities and spells and such. Sure, a well designed fighter probably will outshine a paladin in combat; until you get a lot of combat versus undead and fiends, when the paladin’s tricks will probably give him the edge over the figher. The LG Code of Conduct thing has never caused me too many headaches either, its all good RP fodder.

Having said that, as a player I’m not going to say no to lots of shiny new abilities!

My only real issue with the old 3.5 paladin was that there was no good reason to go beyond level 5. The spellcasting isn't substantial enough to warrant all the dead levels and you've already got every special ability you're ever going to get by level 5. If you want more smites, you can just take Extra Smite as a feat for another 2/day instead of sinking more levels into paladin. 2 smites a day is equivalent to 10 paladin levels! Now, granted, since the smite bonus damage is based off your Paladin level, you're missing out on a few extra points of damage, but the +to-hit bonus is based on your CHA, which isn't going to vary much between a Pal 15 and a Pal 5/Ftr 10. To be honest, if you sink the CHA bonus into Power Attack with a two-hander, you're getting a decent damage boost anyway and your to-hit bonus remains the same.

Assuming 16 CHA, Pal 15 gets +3 hit/+15 damage.
The same CHA Pal 5/Ftr 10 with PA gets +0 hit/+11 damage. If he took Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus with any of his Ftr feats, it's actually +0/+15. Pretty minor difference, IMO. Definitely not worth 10 more levels.

The other issue is that a Paladin's turn undead is so weak as to be practically useless for anything other than fueling Divine feats anyway, so who cares what your turn check/turning damage works out to? You can still burn the turn attempts to fuel Divine Vigor and similar feats as a Pal 5/Ftr 10, so why not?

My only real issue with the old 3.5 paladin was that there was no good reason to go beyond level 5. The spellcasting isn't substantial enough to warrant all the dead levels and you've already got every special ability you're ever going to get by level 5. If you want more smites, you can just take Extra Smite as a feat for another 2/day instead of sinking more levels into paladin. 2 smites a day is equivalent to 10 paladin levels! Now, granted, since the smite bonus damage is based off your Paladin level, you're missing out on a few extra points of damage, but the +to-hit bonus is based on your CHA, which isn't going to vary much between a Pal 15 and a Pal 5/Ftr 10. To be honest, if you sink the CHA bonus into Power Attack with a two-hander, you're getting a decent damage boost anyway and your to-hit bonus remains the same.

Assuming 16 CHA, Pal 15 gets +3 hit/+15 damage.
The same CHA Pal 5/Ftr 10 with PA gets +0 hit/+11 damage. If he took Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus with any of his Ftr feats, it's actually +0/+15. Pretty minor difference, IMO. Definitely not worth 10 more levels.

The other issue is that a Paladin's turn undead is so weak as to be practically useless for anything other than fueling Divine feats anyway, so who cares what your turn check/turning damage works out to? You can still burn the turn attempts to fuel Divine Vigor and similar feats as a Pal 5/Ftr 10, so why not?

So there's your concern with the old one. So what's your take on the iconic paladin build Jason's shared with us?

So there's your concern with the old one. So what's your take on the iconic paladin build Jason's shared with us?

I have no problems with the new one, in so much as what I've seen. I need to see the actual progression in the real book before I commit to any potentially damning statements though. :)

Looks like my ex-paladin abilities will remain the same except for the increase to Will saves. But I wonder if Mothman will stick with his charging smite or will he opt for the divine bond (weapon)?

OK, from the game, would anybody have a pertinent knowledge check for the effects of a manifest zone to Mabar? What type of knowledge would that be?

Kn: Planes. I have it as part of the sensible wizard package ;)

So we put in a little beach time on the island where Ulysses fought his cyclops this weekend. Was good times. Lots of rakomelo (like a cretan whiskey boiled with honey and cinnamon) at night and sun in the day. I, of course, burned a bit like the chronically white person I am. But there is hope- it may convert to a tan yet.

Did you have to cling to the underside of a giant sheep to get away?

Nah. I got the impression the cyclops people have settled down and focus more on your euros than making you into soup these days. Everywhere we went it was like "Cyclops Pizzeria", "Miss Maria the Cyclops' Tavern" and so on.

Miss Maria the Cyclops. Sounds hot.

Nudge nudge, wink wink. Or maybe just nudge nudge, wink.

Nice one.

Nudge nudge, wink wink. Or maybe just nudge nudge, wink.

Groan

Does your cyclopswife like......*ch* *ch*.......photographs?
Knowhatimean? Knowhatimean?

I'm friends with Tony DiTerlizzi, Gerald Brom, and (for some reason) Willy Nelson.

Anything interesting from them (not from Willie, really; I really don't care for country music)? I finally joined Facebook (slow night at work) and thought maybe I should follow some cool people. I'm already following China Mieville and James Ellroy, but I could always use some further suggestions.

IDK yet. I'll go lookee.

Y'all seen Aubrey?

In person? Gods, no! On the boards? Haven't checked.