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So this is the Sand Bomb from Antihero Handbook:
A 2nd level alchemist can take this as a discovery. Bombs are known for their ability to hit consistently thanks to it being a touch attack. So a 2nd level alchemist can consistently throw on one of the strongest debuffs in the game (blindness) and do so quite consistently. Granted it's only for 1 round but 1 round is often all your allies need to really mess a blinded enemy up. It also acts as a blindness AoE, albeit the splash targets get a save.
Is there anything even remotely as powerful as the Sand Bomb for any character? A no-save blindness effect that only requires a touch attack? It only gets better when you get fast bombs. I played a scenario with my alchemist who picked it up at level 6 and I shut down encounters.
Obviously in home games GMs can limit stuff, but assuming all paizo published stuff is on the table, what other abilities even come close to matching this power?
The spit venom spell blinds its target on a successful touch attack. No direct damage but it does follow that up with black adder venom.
Mass dazzling blade is absurdly good. A swift action to cast, and the wielder of each weapon it's cast on can try to blind an adjacent enemy as a free action, once. If several of your friends are adjacent to one enemy they can make it very likely that that enemy is blinded.
Just want to first point out that it is not PFS legal. What is illegal in PFS is not always overpowered, but it is usually banned for a reason (though I admit I use and allow most of what is banned in PFS anyway).
Alchemists have a rather small amount of bombs to go around in a day. If a DM does a proper job of having multiple small encounters per day to deplete the PCs' resources, then that should not be too much of a problem.
At later levels, when the alchemist has enough bombs to last more than a few battles, lots of monsters will have access to alternative ways of detecting where the PCs are (blindsight, thoughtsense, lifesight,etc.), and both monsters and npcs should have enough perception to get a good feel of where the PCs are at these levels anyway (unless said PCs sneak). At that point, all these enemies need is a way to use area of effect attacks. Note that not all enemies will have these options, meaning that the alchemist will sometimes be able to have an enormous impact on a battle (especially if the encounters are the bad kind of "one big monster by itself"), but every player should have enemies which they are very good against.
Is it good? Yes, it is very good, especially since it is a touch attack with no save at the cost of a single discovery (basically a ranged Improved Dirty Trick). Does it completely break the game? Not really.
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It IS pfs legal actually. Antihero's Handbook: 'Misc.: The alchemist discoveries, bloodrager bloodline, phantom emotional focus, social talents, and vigilante talents in this book are legal for play except poisoner.'
I have fun with it with my bomber. The only problem so far was the opportunity cost - by taking it I couldn't take the other discoveries I want yet.
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Spit venom is a good spell, I have to keep that in mind. The earliest it can be taken is at level 5 with a druid/witch though. Still something I might want to pick up for my oracle. Dazzling blade is nice too assuming your save DC is decent.
I'm not suggesting sand bomb inherently breaks the game, but blindness is one of those conditions that shuts down PFS encounters. PFS scenarios definitely tend to favor 1 BBEG in the final fight than mobs of enemies, and they don't often have the tools to deal with blindness. A smart bomber alchemist knows when to use bombs and when to use other tools at their disposal. I've never run out of bombs with my alchemist and I've been in some resource heavy dungeon crawls with him.
As for the opportunity cost, I agree, there are some discoveries I would like but probably won't get, but sand bomb is such a good discovery it's ultimately worth it
I think the usual drawbacks of bombs (short range increment, small radius, possibility of friendly fire) hold it back if you pick it up at level 2. A 16 Dex Alchemist is still going to miss touch AC 30-40% of the time at level 2 and if you miss, you might blind and damage your party. You'lre even less accurate if you haven't got Precise Shot. Plus, like all debuff bombs, you can barely use it without Precise Bombs. So the level 2 Alchemist pretty much has to be a Grenadier. I know most bombers were going to take Precise Bombs and Precise Shot anyways and that makes Sand Bomb feel like a freebie. But the fact is, it requires investment. You should be able to do powerful stuff if you spend two feats and a discovery to make it work properly.
In later levels, it's a lot better. But, like previously mentioned, there's spells that can do similar stuff at later levels. If all we're concerned about is ending encounters with one trick, then arcane casters have been doing that since 1st level with Color Spray and Sleep*. Personally, I think Sand Bomb is about even with Glitterdust, which is available level 3 onward and doesn't require the sort of feat/discovery investment that Sand Bomb does to be good.
I think the real problem with Sand Bomb is this:
PFS scenarios definitely tend to favor 1 BBEG in the final fight than mobs of enemies
Sand Bomb is overpowering against single targets. Sand Bomb (and, like, every strong single target debuff ever) isn't going to shut down encounters on its lonesome if there's more than one bad guy.
*Not that the wizard is an example of good game balance.
His save DC is 23 at lv8, so it's not an easy save against the splash effect.
DC 23 at 8th means you've got Ability Focus, right? And Fast Bombs. If you took PBS and Precise Shot as well (I'm making an assumption but it seems likely), that's 3 of your 4 feats dedicated to bombing. You also have at least 2 of your 4 discoveries dedicated to bombing - Sand Bomb and Fast Bombs. That puts us right back at the point I made: You should be able to do powerful stuff if you invest into it.
You've shown me that you dedicated around 50% of your character's resources towards being good at this thing (and, again, I'm making an assumption - correct me if I'm wrong), and so you're good at it.
Sand Bomb can't target multiple creatures without Fast Bombs, it's a risk to your party without Precise Bombs, it still carries a risk of missing without Precise Shot* (and missing turns off Precise Bombs), and the saving throw isn't a big threat without your significant investment into making it one. Sand Bomb is good but not great without your character's dedication to bombing. You're definitely right that it's top tier for Bomb Discovery choices but I'd say it's still on par with stuff like Stink Bomb or Tanglefoot Bomb. No saving throw but a shorter duration.
It does kind of negate Blinding Bomb. Not sure it's worth adding a save to make blindness last a minute.
*I keep making assumptions but you probably have about +10 to hit? Touch AC averages something like 9-14 at that level, so without Precise Shot you miss 20-40% of the time you fire into melee.
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My current to hit is +12 (6 bab, 1 size [Ratfolk], 3 dex, Throw Anything +1, PBS +1)
I'm a Grenadier with 24 Int (+4 headband) and when I down my cognatogen it bumps up to 28, which is how I get my DC 23 (10+4+9)
My favored class bonus gives me an extra discovery every 6 levels, and I picked up Extra Alchemist Discovery for wings.
1(Grenadier bonus) Weapon Prof(Longbow)
1) PBS
3) Precise Shot
5) Splash Weapon Mastery
7) Extra Alchemist Discovery (Wings)
9th level will be Extra Discovery for Preserve Organs
2(Grenadier bonus) Precise Bomb
2 Cognatogen
4 Frost Bomb
6 Tumor Familiar (Hedgehog)
6 Sand Bomb [only reason I took this so late was because I only just recently read what it does]
7 Wings
8 Fast Bomb
8 Retrained Frost Bomb into Force Bomb
10 will be Mummification
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Sand bomb can't hit people with no save without fast bombs, but if you get caught in the splash zone you can get blinded if you fail the fairly high reflex save. Not as big of an area as Glitterdust, but especially with Precise Bombs and splash weapon mastery I tend to be able to pick whichever squares I want to hit.
I also forgot to mention that I typically have Heroism up by use of Alchemical Allocation, so that's another +2 to hit. The last time I played this character the only reason I couldn't even hit a monk was because they had deflect arrows and I was only level 7 and without fast bombs yet.
My initial intent of this character was to be a major powerhouse damage dealer with my bombs, but as I got higher in level my ability to deal good damage compared to others started dwindling, so I have sort of changed tactics. I was originally going to do TWF and rapid shot, with all my other spare feats going to Extra Bombs so I don't run out so quickly. being able to nova is no longer something I'm shooting for (though I'll still likely buy boots of speed later for that third attack) and with sand and force bomb I fit that role really nicely as debuffer and skill monkey. I fill the role of trapfinder/breaker thanks to Aram Zey's Focus. Eyes of the Eagle put me at over 20 perception, high Int and heightened awareness means I'm a good at all the knowledges too.
It's by far the most powerful * (bomb additive) discovery out there. The crazy part is that once the target is blind, the target's AC is lowered, increasing the chance to hit with your other attacks (likewise for your allies' attacks). That makes the discovery not only amazing for defense, but also for offense!
Mass Dazzling Blade allows a will save per target, and Spit Venom is single target only (and against the poison is pretty weak). Both are 3rd level spells, which means you have fewer of them per day at lower levels, and later the Alchemist can throw multiple bombs per round.
*I keep making assumptions but you probably have about +10 to hit? Touch AC averages something like 9-14 at that level, so without Precise Shot you miss 20-40% of the time you fire into melee.
To be precise, the average Touch AC across all monsters and NPCs of CRs 7, 8, and 9 are each 13.
PFS scenarios definitely tend to favor 1 BBEG in the final fight than mobs of enemies
There's my reminder never to play PFS...
*Build stuff*
You have a really good build where even your race choice is geared towards being a better Alchemist. I was wrong about which feats were there to make you better at bombing but right that you'd dedicated 3 of them to it. Do you think that you shouldn't be powerful when you dedicate yourself to it? I'm not necessarily trying to be rhetorical with that question, I'm legit asking if I'm wrong to believe that you building towards negating the potential drawbacks of a debuffing bomb justifies the consistency of your Sand Bombs.
It's by far the most powerful * (bomb additive) discovery out there.
Only if you believe 1 round blindness is a worse condition than Stink Bomb's Nauseated 1d4+2 rounds or Tanglefoot Bomb's "entangled+can't move" for 2d4 rounds. I don't think that's true. I think the main power of Sand Bomb comes from consistency.
I take more issue with it being way better than the very similar Blinding Bomb, which is level gated. It's just... I never felt Blinding Bomb was that powerful. I only took it once I'd gotten Fast Bombs, so I could do a bunch of debuffs on a full attack.
I also think that part of the issue comes from the inflexibility of PFS. I wouldn't gun for a player who used this but I'd have no problem with boss-level enemies knowing about some of the PC's tactics and preparing stuff like Echolocation or having some boss fights be things like dragons. Boss fights being easy is partly because the bosses can't effectively prepare while the PCs very much can.
To be precise, the average Touch AC across all monsters and NPCs of CRs 7, 8, and 9 are each 13.
I generally check this and factor in some deviation. I gave those numbers from memory but I wasn't too far off from 11.8 with a 3.7 deviation. Where did you get your stats? I like being able to cross reference multiple sources.
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I think the main power of Sand Bomb comes from consistency.
Exactly! Stink Bomb allows a save, and it prevents your party members (and yourself) from properly attacking the target. Tanglefoot Bomb also allows a save, and it doesn't prevent ranged or caster enemies from functioning (although not being able to 5'-step away to prevent AoOs can certainly hinder them if you have a party member adjacent to your target). Sand Bomb allows no save for the primary target, almost nothing is immune to blindness (just 26 out of 8309 entries in my spreadsheet, see below), and very few things properly overcome blindness (blindsight (which only 248 entries possess natively, plus 42 with Lifesight), mostly, and Greater Blind-Fight (1 entry) if the enemy can pinpoint, although Blind-Fight (375 entries) prevents the AC malus).
In my experience and opinion, against single bosses, you don't normally need your full power - the action economy imbalance generally makes those combats favourably anyway. Hearing based blindsight/blindsense like Echolocation is also overcome by Silence. All in all, I'd expect high saves on single target bosses to be more frequently a problem than blindsight.
I take more issue with it being way better than the very similar Blinding Bomb, which is level gated. It's just... I never felt Blinding Bomb was that powerful. I only took it once I'd gotten Fast Bombs, so I could do a bunch of debuffs on a full attack.
That's something sadly pretty common. It's like how 99% of all curses are utter crap, because the permanent duration isn't any better than 1 round/level duration in combat, and since enemies that escape should have easy access to Remove Curse, the long duration is only relevant if used against the players.
I also presume Sand Bomb's writer didn't realize that the duration is easily renewable by throwing a bomb each turn.Where did you get your stats? I like being able to cross reference multiple sources.
Bascially on an updated version of the spreadsheet you've linked. It uses the most recent spreadsheets by Chopswil, (to be found here), with the calculations redone from scratch. I have a newer version online here, but because of your post, I've today added the NPC list to it (as humanoid enemies are often a bit different). I'll see about uploading the whole thing later on.
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@Taudis you're right in that I have built my character to be a good bomber and should be able to do good things with it. Even if I were to take blindness bomb instead of sand the DC 23 is difficult enough that I would succeed more often than fail. For that reason I don't feel as bad about sand bomb. Sand bomb probably shouldn't even exist since blinding bombs have already been around. But it does exist, so I'm going to use it.
@Derklord I agree that the Sand bombs consistency wins out over other bomb types like tanglefoot. It makes targets so much easier to hit for allies, and so few things are immune to it, which is why blindness is such a powerful debuff
Stink Bomb allows a save, and it prevents your party members (and yourself) from properly attacking the target.
A 1 round cloud is pretty easily worked around, for what that's worth. The whole "allows a save" thing becomes pretty moot with Fast Bombs, since you can just force 2 or 3 saves a round. That's more of a single BBEG issue again, though.
Tanglefoot Bomb also allows a save, and it doesn't prevent ranged or caster enemies from functioning (although not being able to 5'-step away to prevent AoOs can certainly hinder them if you have a party member adjacent to your target).
To be fair, Blind might not prevent a caster from functioning (it barely affects AoEs) and also often needs your party to be able to attack the creature to be relevant. Entangled is a -4 penalty to ranged attacks and forces concentration checks (NPCs don't minmax as hard as PCs, they do fail those). Blind is worse for an archer but I think that it's a toss up for a caster - not being able to move away from combat is generally worse than having to guess where to place an AoE. As for having a party member adjacent, that's what the 2d4 round duration is for.
Hearing based blindsight/blindsense like Echolocation is also overcome by Silence. All in all, I'd expect high saves on single target bosses to be more frequently a problem than blindsight.
If the party found out the BBEG prepared Echolocation and brought in Silence to keep Sand Bomb working, good for them. I don't want my players to fail, and that's the sort of forethought and cooperative planning that should result in success. Meanwhile, the Alchemist doesn't have Silence on their list, so without a party who can cast it, they're left with Concussive Bombs. That's another investment into making sure Sand Bomb works and it allows a save.
I agree that high saves are way more likely on a single target boss (though, like, dragons are probably one of the better choices for single monster boss fights). But I'll reiterate: a DM shouldn't be presenting boss encounters that don't compensate against the party's strength and the inability to adjust is a PFS issue, not a balance issue. I gave heavy-handed examples of how Sand Bomb is negated but you could also do something like boosting touch AC, Syries brought up Deflect Arrows as a counter, you can use cover (improved cover grants +8 AC, +4 to Ref, and Improved Evasion), you can break line of sight to prevent the Alchemist from hitting, Wind Wall imposes a miss chance, so does Displacement, Mirror Image, etc.
I dunno, I don't disagree that Sand Bomb is really powerful. I'm halfways starting to convince myself that it should be banned in PFS. But I just don't think it's unbalanced so much as pre-planned single BBEGs are weak and easily exploited by powerful attacks that are too uncommon for a writer to plan around.
Spreadsheet link
Thank you!
A 1 round cloud is pretty easily worked around, for what that's worth. The whole "allows a save" thing becomes pretty moot with Fast Bombs, since you can just force 2 or 3 saves a round.
Oh, don't get my wrong, I like Stink Bomb - it previously was my favourite devbuff bomb discovery! It's just that the save, and the concealment, do provide weakpoints that make Sand Bomb better, in my opinion.
I did underestimate the the entangled condition (I should've re-checked it), and thus Tanglefoot Bomb, though. Thank you for wising me up! Sand Bomb's AoE still trumps in most encounters, though.
I guess Sand Bomb's impact on casters depends on the prepared spells.
I do admit that some of my awe stems from an encounter a few sessions ago, when I had the party of four 6th level PCs face a Hellcat. It failed the initial save against the Skald's Glitterdust, and suddenly every attack from every party member hit (due to a -8 to AC). The Hellcat made the save on its turn, but at that point, the encounter was already decided.
There are so many discoveries that you need to pick up (Infusion, Precise Bombs, Fast Bombs, and a damage type changing one), it's hard to take more than one debuffing discovery until fairly high level. It's similar to a spontaneous caster's spells known - reliability and versatility are what's best. And that's why I hold Sand Bomb in such a high esteem - it's good against single targets, it's good against groups, it's good against high offense targets, it's good against high defense targets (the weaknesses it has are shared by (almost) all your bombs), and it's good regardless of your fellow party members.
There are so many discoveries that you need to pick up (Infusion, Precise Bombs, Fast Bombs, and a damage type changing one), it's hard to take more than one debuffing discovery until fairly high level. It's similar to a spontaneous caster's spells known - reliability and versatility are what's best. And that's why I hold Sand Bomb in such a high esteem - it's good against single targets, it's good against groups, it's good against high offense targets, it's good against high defense targets (the weaknesses it has are shared by (almost) all your bombs), and it's good regardless of your fellow party members.
Oh yeah, for sure! I do think that it's a slightly different build that takes Sand Bomb over Stink Bomb (mostly cos dropping clouds all over the battlefield is a different combat style and Stink Bomb Alchemists are really a subset of bomber Alchemists) but Sand Bomb is definitely the debuff your average Alchemist should generically take.
I did sort of feel like that was Tanglefoot Bomb before I found out about Sand Bomb, though. You pretty much had to go Grenadier and then Frost Bomb->Tanglefoot Bomb->[open slot]->Fast Bombs before. It's a product of Alchemists not having enough discoveries to really bother with anything but the best debuff possible. It's definitely not great for having a diversity of builds. I think the real solutions to that rely on homebrew, though, like giving Alchemists Infusion for free so they can free up their discoveries for more diverse choices.
I do admit that some of my awe stems from an encounter a few sessions ago, when I had the party of four 6th level PCs face a Hellcat. It failed the initial save against the Skald's Glitterdust, and suddenly every attack from every party member hit (due to a -8 to AC). The Hellcat made the save on its turn, but at that point, the encounter was already decided.
My first character I ever played in D&D was a prankster sorcerer (3.5) that I accidentally built to be a really effective battlefield controller because Glitterdust and Grease seemed hilarious to cast on people. I ended up saving the party from a really brutal random encounter (I think it was 2d4 Owlbears at 5th level but the DM rolled an 8) by just casting Glitterdust. I feel you on the awe that AoE blind inspires.
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I personally haven't felt that Alchemist didn't have access to enough discoveries. There were two MUST HAVE feats for my bomber alchemist: Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Outside of that, I felt like I had a fair amount of freedom. I ended up taking Splash Weapon Mastery as it's such a powerful feat, especially with my ability to hit one more target with a blindness effect, but that is definitely a feat slot I considered just taking Extra Discovery for- a feat that can be taken any number of times. A Lv20 alchemist ratfolk can have PBS, Precise shot, and 21 discoveries (every feat from lv5 on as Extra Discovery, +3 discoveries from favored class bonus).
Obviously that's a bit excessive and ignores a few good, significant feats, but point being, I haven't felt that I've been short on discoveries.
AoE blindness is made all the more sweet when you're guaranteed at least 1 blind target, just as long as you don't roll a nat 1 on the attack roll.
I personally haven't felt that Alchemist didn't have access to enough discoveries. There were two MUST HAVE feats for my bomber alchemist: Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Outside of that, I felt like I had a fair amount of freedom. I ended up taking Splash Weapon Mastery as it's such a powerful feat, especially with my ability to hit one more target with a blindness effect, but that is definitely a feat slot I considered just taking Extra Discovery for- a feat that can be taken any number of times. A Lv20 alchemist ratfolk can have PBS, Precise shot, and 21 discoveries (every feat from lv5 on as Extra Discovery, +3 discoveries from favored class bonus).
I personally found Splash Weapon Mastery to be pretty nice for the far shot effect, being able to attack at further range increments without huge penalties is helpful. You're right that it's not necessary - I'd skip it to get Stink Bomb quicker if I was building for that discovery. Lots of feats in a similar spot - Rapid Shot on Grenadiers, Improved Initiative, Extra Bombs, etc. I'll prioritize some discoveries over those feats but I want the feats too.
I do sort of consider Iron Will a necessary feat for Alchemists but it can be put off til 7th or 9th or replaced by something like your hedgehog or the Half-Elf's Dual-Minded.
Ratfolk are great race for Alchemists but not everyone plays them (or humans, since their bonus feat is pretty much the same as the Ratfolk FCB until 12th). Discoveries are tighter without freebies.
The Tanglefoot Bag has half the range of the Tanglefoot discovery, but is also a touch attack, and always entangles when it hits. The discovery has a save or entangle on a hit.
The bag is better, as it always entangles, which give a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity for 2d4 rounds. It also imposes concentration checks. They may also be stuck, but that is much less important. This works best on martials, but casters have a harder time with the save. It really hurts ranged martials, since the dex penalty also applies to the ranged attacks.
/cevah
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The Tanglefoot Bag has half the range of the Tanglefoot discovery (...)
There are bomb throwing Alchemists not using the Bombchucker?
The Tanglefoot Bag has half the range of the Tanglefoot discovery (...)There are bomb throwing Alchemists not using the Bombchucker?
Shouldn't all bow-using Grenadiers not be using the Bombchucker? I know it doesn't list an action to take it off but it would interfere with bow use and at the very least would mean you have to take a move action to pull out your bow.
I wanna say all Grenadiers in general actually, since the only ones I've seen without bow proficiency have polearm proficiency which has the same two-handed issue.
