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We don't have to dumb down encumbrance at our table.
One could easily say that making encumbrance be only weight is ‘dumbing it down’ as any hiker can tell you that raw weight is most definitely not the only thing which matters.
To sum up: both measures have value. ;)
Also listing things like specific numbers rather than bulk/sizes leads to silly things where every character (regardless of the fact they are hulking muscle bound brutes) should write the minimal weight for their race so as to avoid setting off as many traps as possible.
So adventurers are Little Napoleons ... that explains a great deal. ;)
Also listing things like specific numbers rather than bulk/sizes leads to silly things where every character (regardless of the fact they are hulking muscle bound brutes) should write the minimal weight for their race so as to avoid setting off as many traps as possible.So adventurers are Little Napoleons ... that explains a great deal. ;)
I've actually done this for nearly every mounted character I've ever made, to better ensure my mount could carry more gear, or not get slowed in combat.
It would be nice to just have a general rule saying x mount can carry y sized rider, and be done with it.
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Just set the random element of the character's weight to strength mod plus con mod and call it good.
As to the actual topic. I don't see the point of bulk and haven't seen an argument in bulk's favor that makes any sense. Ten little things is a thing and some things are practically two things! A person could be as many as ten things! Ten pound object? Could be one or two things, but two ten pound objects would definitely not be three things.
Converting the game to metric is something I could get behind. Converting it to "things" is useless. It's dangerously close to "40 rods to the hogs head" territory.
I'm not convinced that players who ignored weight are suddenly excited about paying close attention to unwieldiness.
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I always saw Bulk as a measure of how "difficult" something is to carry rather that the actual Mass of a thing which frankly matters FAR more to a PC than it's inherent weight IMO.
Example:
A Ladder, Skis, and Portable Ram all weigh 20 lbs
A Folding Table, 1 Unit of Firewood, and a Portable Alchemist Lab also all weigh 20 lbs
In Bulk, I imagine ALL of these items having wildly different Bulk Scores but I doubt any of them would exceed 2 Bulk at Maximum, and others would likely be considered L Bulk.
By all measures it SHOULD be harder to carry 5 Ladders than it is to carry 5 bundles of firewood.
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I always saw Bulk as a measure of how "difficult" something is to carry rather that the actual Mass of a thing which frankly matters FAR more to a PC than it's inherent weight IMO.
Example:
A Ladder, Skis, and Portable Ram all weigh 20 lbs
A Folding Table, 1 Unit of Firewood, and a Portable Alchemist Lab also all weigh 20 lbs
In Bulk, I imagine ALL of these items having wildly different Bulk Scores but I doubt any of them would exceed 2 Bulk at Maximum, and others would likely be considered L Bulk.
By all measures it SHOULD be harder to carry 5 Ladders than it is to carry 5 bundles of firewood.
I get that. But with the bulk system we have a certain amount of firewood that is as hampering as carrying a ladder, and a certain level of strength that makes the unwieldiness of both unimportant. Bulk talks about the problem of variations in unwieldiness but it doesn't offer a solution to it.
Think about it like this. Our 10 foot ladder weighs 20 lbs. Under one system it's 20 lbs, under the other system it's 2 maybe 3 bulk. Small, medium and large creatures will suffer a vastly different impact from carrying the ladder. The large creature could just strap it to his back while the small creature couldn't realistically move it without using his hands regardless of its weight. Both bulk and weight systems rely on the GM to recognize this and rule accordingly. Therefore, bulk does not offer a solution to the concern of unwieldiness.
If their bulk is similar to the bulk used in Starfinder, then you have the weird situation where a strong character could be more encumbered by armor they are wearing than if they had the same armor in their backpack.
You could make the system work by providing a size based tier system for the impact of bulk and a greater granularity of the bulk score, but then it doesn't make the math easier for people who couldn't use the weight system. A compromise would be putting a limit on the maximum bulk of any single object carried based on size.
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To sum up: both measures have value. ;)
IMO, bulk only has value if you can use it to determine the value for using it for any random item you may need, like ones NOT listed in the book. I can't tell you how much bulk a 8x10 oriental rug should be but I can tell it weighs 66 lbs. [thanks Mr. google!]
I always saw Bulk as a measure of how "difficult" something is to carry rather that the actual Mass of a thing which frankly matters FAR more to a PC than it's inherent weight IMO.
The thing is, with bulk, a potion bottle in your belt pouch and a wooden shield strapped to your arm have the EXACT same 'difficulty' to use. Right there is a total inability to come close to a usable metric for what you want. 4 ounces to 5 pounds seems is too large a swing before you take in the fact that it doesn't seem to care about the 'unwieldiness' of those items.
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I'll reiterate my contention that we get the best of both worlds if there's a sentence saying 'One Bulk is about 10 lbs of dead weight, adjusted up or down by at GM discretion based on how easy it is to carry. Unconscious people generally fall under the 10 lb level.'
That allows people to usually use Bulk for printed items, with all the ease of use and nuance that entails, while also allowing people to pick up random items and figure out how much Bulk they are pretty casually.
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I'll reiterate my contention that we get the best of both worlds if there's a sentence saying 'One Bulk is about 10 lbs of dead weight, adjusted up or down by at GM discretion based on how easy it is to carry. Unconscious people generally fall under the 10 lb level.'
That allows people to usually use Bulk for printed items, with all the ease of use and nuance that entails, while also allowing people to pick up random items and figure out how much Bulk they are pretty casually.
Once you put the conversion rate on there then the utility of a "bulk" measurement suddenly extends to other applications beyond encumbrance, where weight/mass matter. So, assuming "bulk" can be expressed in decimals, and not always whole numbers, it becomes as useful as tracking weight/mass.
If its done entirely in whole numbers, then they'll be saying a dagger is 10 lbs. A potion is 10 pounds, etc. I'm assuming decimals.
Are we going to express characters in terms of bulk (Halflings are bulk 4, humans are bulk 15) instead of height and weight? That would seem odd. "Please introduce your character. Okay, well I'm an Elf, bulk 16 -- I work out."
This brings me to the notion of carrying an unconscious person. How do you arrive at 10 lbs? A person is much heavier even without equipment. They're not rigid. Have you ever tried to bury one in the woods? Err, I mean carry one. ;)
Anyways, my preference is to use weight, instead of bulk, because it is a useful real-world measurement with applications beyond encumbrance. Plus, the mechanics are identical. You add up numbers and compare to thresholds.
Right on, just in case an NPC asks how much your wife weighs, or something. As for non-Imperial, I am from and currently live in the UK (but have lived over half my life in the USA), while the metric system is embraced here, they still use a mix of both. The only problem with the otherwise fantastic and logical Metric system, is it doesn't quite sound right in a fantasy/swords and sorcery milieu, for me.
Using stones is even worse than lb.
Using stones is even worse than lb.
The stone to pound conversion is quite easy and far superior to meters to stone. Multiples of 14 are much easier than multiples of 6.35. And any of the above is superior to Bulk as you can convert between them, allowing you to figure out weights not listed.
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Using stones is even worse than lb.The stone to pound conversion is quite easy and far superior to meters to stone. Multiples of 14 are much easier than multiples of 6.35. And any of the above is superior to Bulk as you can convert between them, allowing you to figure out weights not listed.
I mean fair enough, each to their own. I think I just think better in terms of general dimensions and rough impression of sizeiness-to-massiness than actual mass. IIRC you've said you've found it hard to think in terms of bulk over weight. I'm awful with weight (being forced to ballpark in units of myself and liter bottles of liquid) but from what we've heard of bulk it's gonna stick in my head easily.
And yes, I know you meant kilos. We will save the meters to stones conversion for obscure Occult rituals.
I think I just think better in terms of general dimensions and rough impression of sizeiness-to-massiness than actual mass.
Cool, but that's a MASSIVE strike against bulk. a potion bottle and a wooden shield both have identical "sizeiness-to-massiness" as per the rules. It means you can carry the SAME number of either in a backpack so 20 wooden shields are as easy to carry as 20 bottles...
IIRC you've said you've found it hard to think in terms of bulk over weight. I'm awful with weight (being forced to ballpark in units of myself and liter bottles of liquid) but from what we've heard of bulk it's gonna stick in my head easily.
Here's the thing though: it's super, super easy to find weights even if you suck at visualizing them. The internet can, with a few seconds and an internet search, spit out any weight you need for the most obscure item you can think of. Have no idea how much a 10" square wicker basket is: 8 pounds. Need to visualize that? It's usually not hard to find something around to use that the same weight: a stack of 8 1 pound frozen meals is a good approximation of that size and weight.
That just isn't something you can do with bulk. I have NO point of reference for a 16 bulk PC or a 20 bulk boulder.
I think I just think better in terms of general dimensions and rough impression of sizeiness-to-massiness than actual mass.Cool, but that's a MASSIVE strike against bulk. a potion bottle and a wooden shield both have identical "sizeiness-to-massiness" as per the rules. It means you can carry the SAME number of either in a backpack so 20 wooden shields are as easy to carry as 20 bottles...
Huh. Fair. I assume you got that from the character sheets?
IIRC you've said you've found it hard to think in terms of bulk over weight. I'm awful with weight (being forced to ballpark in units of myself and liter bottles of liquid) but from what we've heard of bulk it's gonna stick in my head easily.Here's the thing though: it's super, super easy to find weights even if you suck at visualizing them. The internet can, with a few seconds and an internet search, spit out any weight you need for the most obscure item you can think of. Have no idea how much a 10" square wicker basket is: 8 pounds. Need to visualize that? It's usually not hard to find something around to use that the same weight: a stack of 8 1 pound frozen meals is a good approximation of that size and weight.
I currently run my game over roll20 and my computer is awful, actually stopping to google everything is a bad idea because every time I tab out I risk crashing it (and then taking 15 minutes to log back in) and I'm not 100% sure why. So I've gotten used to having to try and do everything in my head.
That just isn't something you can do with bulk. I have NO point of reference for a 16 bulk PC or a 20 bulk boulder.
That's fair. I'm liable to memorising large swathes of the rulebook (for some reason I glaze over weights in lbs though) and I think it means I'll probably need to read through it once or twice and then I think I'll be able to quickly cross-reference random objects with the bulk I know.
It's usually not hard to find something around to use that the same weight: a stack of 8 1 pound frozen meals is a good approximation of that size and weight.
That just isn't something you can do with bulk. I have NO point of reference for a 16 bulk PC or a 20 bulk boulder.
I've mentioned before, but I'm a logistics professional. Specifically, a freight planner. From that background, bulk actually makes a certain amount of sense and is more true to my day-to-day work than weight ever when determining encumbrance. Seriously. I'll arrange the movement of millions of $ in commodities every day and the weight is far less of a determinant than the size. It just doesn't come up as often as you'd think. Considering how hilarious I still find the capacity of cargo bays in SF, I'm actually a little surprised they got bulk as correct as they did.
That said, the inability to just look up the bulk of an object is an EXCELLENT point. I think it'll be easier to ballpark it than you do, but you're quite right about it being even easier to just google it.
Edit: Also, I never had much problem with weight. I think I prefer bulk, because its an easier unit of measurement to work with, but if enough people dislike bulk, I'd be fine with switching back.
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Huh. Fair. I assume you got that from the character sheets?
Blogs. Alchemist one has L potions and the magic item one had a shield that was L. The category in starfinder goes from 4 ounces to 5 pounds I think...
my computer is awful
Sorry to hear. I know your pain as I too had one and a crappy internet connection to go with it.
for some reason I glaze over weights in lbs though
If bulk works for you for some reason, more power to you. I know it seem to work for some so I'd be ok with dual listings or at least a conversion so I can change bulk to an actual weight.
AnimatedPaper: *nods* Yep I agree. I'm cool with the concept of adding 'unwieldiness' as a factor but the logistics of doing so is far more complex than the Bulk mechanic. IMO Bulk is more of weight 'simplification' system than an actual 'incorporate unwieldiness' system.
Huh. Fair. I assume you got that from the character sheets?Blogs. Alchemist one has L potions and the magic item one had a shield that was L. The category in starfinder goes from 4 ounces to 5 pounds I think...
Ah, might check them again then. Guess it all depends on if the Heavy Metal Shield is also L, as that would be more surprising I think (IIRC the magic one was a small-ish wooden one?)
my computer is awfulSorry to hear. I know your pain as I too had one and a crappy internet connection to go with it.
Thanks. It's just awkward when you're running a game, about to answer a question for someone. Then it freezes for 15 minutes and you have to reload everything.
for some reason I glaze over weights in lbs thoughIf bulk works for you for some reason, more power to you. I know it seem to work for some so I'd be ok with dual listings or at least a conversion so I can change bulk to an actual weight.
AnimatedPaper: *nods* Yep I agree. I'm cool with the concept of adding 'unwieldiness' as a factor but the logistics of doing so is far more complex than the Bulk mechanic. IMO Bulk is more of weight 'simplification' system than an actual 'incorporate unwieldiness' system.
Yeah, I'm totally fine with there being a conversion factor listed, and I think that could be useful for people like you who use the weight to get a better grip on it. I just like the idea of the bulk system being default so I can make snap, non-obscure decisions as to how much inventory space everything is using up.
IIRC the magic one was a small-ish wooden one?
floating shield: master-quality light wooden shield
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IIRC the magic one was a small-ish wooden one?floating shield: master-quality light wooden shield
Yep, thanketh. I'd forgotten they'd exactly specified it as light so the small-ish was a ballpark. Yeah, that's a weird space/mass span, but the mental image of a round-bottomed glass litre bottle of potion is great enough that I'm tempted to assume that that's the default now, so thanks for that as well. Potion chugging is serious business.
"Yes you have to drink all of it."
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I'll reiterate my contention that we get the best of both worlds if there's a sentence saying 'One Bulk is about 10 lbs of dead weight, adjusted up or down by at GM discretion based on how easy it is to carry. Unconscious people generally fall under the 10 lb level.'
That allows people to usually use Bulk for printed items, with all the ease of use and nuance that entails, while also allowing people to pick up random items and figure out how much Bulk they are pretty casually.
No, you are wrong. Bulk should be an ambiguous term so we avoid examples of someone carrying 5 ladders around as expressed above. 100 # as a training weight is easy to carry around. 100 # as a 10 foot long wooden table is extremely difficult to carry around because it is BULKY.
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IIRC the magic one was a small-ish wooden one?floating shield: master-quality light wooden shieldYep, thanketh. I'd forgotten they'd exactly specified it as light so the small-ish was a ballpark. Yeah, that's a weird space/mass span, but the mental image of a round-bottomed glass litre bottle of potion is great enough that I'm tempted to assume that that's the default now, so thanks for that as well. Potion chugging is serious business.
"Yes you have to drink all of it."
I have run at least one game where potions came in Carlo Rossi bottles. It was in response to another DM who made healing potions addictive, so I made them giant jugs of low quality booze.
In my defense, I was young.
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No, you are wrong.I'll reiterate my contention that we get the best of both worlds if there's a sentence saying 'One Bulk is about 10 lbs of dead weight, adjusted up or down by at GM discretion based on how easy it is to carry. Unconscious people generally fall under the 10 lb level.'
That allows people to usually use Bulk for printed items, with all the ease of use and nuance that entails, while also allowing people to pick up random items and figure out how much Bulk they are pretty casually.
Nope. I'm entirely correct.
Bulk should be an ambiguous term so we avoid examples of someone carrying 5 ladders around as expressed above. 100 # as a training weight is easy to carry around. 100 # as a 10 foot long wooden table is extremely difficult to carry around because it is BULKY.
I specifically noted that it could be adjusted up and down. Something like a ladder is also likely a listed item, and thus has a listed bulk independent of, and overruling, the conversion. The point of the conversion number is weird corner case situations, but it's really nice to have something guiding you in those situations when they come up.
"Floating Shield" its in the name why it would be easier to cart around with you.
I'd be with you 100% IF we were talking about weight. This nifty new measurement claims to take 'unwieldiness' into account so I really don't care it it's like tying a 3' piece of styrofoam to your arm, it's still pretty cumbersome: far more so than a bottle in a backpack/pouch. From the description it just lays there and acts as a normal shield if you do not activate it so the only thing it could affect is weight.
Takes into account does not mean completely supplants weight. So it is bulkier than a potion, but weighs less. The multiplication of the two factors can yield the same result."Floating Shield" its in the name why it would be easier to cart around with you.I'd be with you 100% IF we were talking about weight. This nifty new measurement claims to take 'unwieldiness' into account so I really don't care it it's like tying a 3' piece of styrofoam to your arm, it's still pretty cumbersome: far more so than a bottle in a backpack/pouch. From the description it just lays there and acts as a normal shield if you do not activate it so the only thing it could affect is weight.
Yeah, no. Unless something DRAMATICALLY changes between versions: "Physical Description: A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high." So...
Potion: 1 inch wide and 2 inches high and - weight [see ink, 1 ounce of ink + bottle = - weight]
Shield: 3' round and - [lets say it weighs nothing]
The shield is STILL much bulkier and the same weight category....
EDIT: also think about containers: lets say a belt pouch or wrist sheath can hold 1 L item...
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Perhaps bulk also takes into account fragility. Glass or ceramic vials would have to be packed with more care. You definitely just couldn’t throw a bunch of them loose into your backpack together. This could be considered a version of “unweildiness.”
Perhaps bulk also takes into account fragility. Glass or ceramic vials would have to be packed with more care. You definitely just couldn’t throw a bunch of them loose into your backpack together. This could be considered a version of “unweildiness.”
Doesn't make sense IMO. How does that track with a single potion? Especially with the 'standard' bedroll and blanket. Items have to stand on their own and not as a "bunch of them". IMO, they are L as a pure meta construct to limit how many you could carry and not for any in game justification of bulk, mass, unwieldiness or fragility.
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No, you are wrong.I'll reiterate my contention that we get the best of both worlds if there's a sentence saying 'One Bulk is about 10 lbs of dead weight, adjusted up or down by at GM discretion based on how easy it is to carry. Unconscious people generally fall under the 10 lb level.'
That allows people to usually use Bulk for printed items, with all the ease of use and nuance that entails, while also allowing people to pick up random items and figure out how much Bulk they are pretty casually.
Nope. I'm entirely correct.
Bulk should be an ambiguous term so we avoid examples of someone carrying 5 ladders around as expressed above. 100 # as a training weight is easy to carry around. 100 # as a 10 foot long wooden table is extremely difficult to carry around because it is BULKY.I specifically noted that it could be adjusted up and down. Something like a ladder is also likely a listed item, and thus has a listed bulk independent of, and overruling, the conversion. The point of the conversion number is weird corner case situations, but it's really nice to have something guiding you in those situations when they come up.
Yes you did offer the caveat of exceptions for bulk but you wanted to throw in a standard unit of measure as a floor. (10 lbs = 1 bulk) That is flat out wrong. Bulk is how difficult and unweildly an item it. It has only a passing resemblance to weight. You could have a halfing with an 18 strength be unable to use a greatsword because it is too bulky for him even though a normal human with an 18 strength could lift it with ease. Bulk should have categories with examples of items that cost bulk. Weight should be of some consideration sure but it should not be the main factor in determining bulk as a greatsword would not be bulky to most giants at all
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Weight is a primary consideration of bulk, adjusted by moment of inertia.
A 100 lb training weight has a lower moment of inertia and thus a lower bulk than 100 lb of ladder.
Start with 1 Bulk per 10 lbs. The training weight might have a multiplier of 0.2, while a ladder is estimated at 1.5 or more.
Yes you did offer the caveat of exceptions for bulk but you wanted to throw in a standard unit of measure as a floor. (10 lbs = 1 bulk) That is flat out wrong. Bulk is how difficult and unweildly an item it.
No, it really isn't. A potion bottle and a light wooden shield are, by bulk, the exact same unwieldiness. Taking that into account, it does a very, very, very, very poor job of measuring the difficulty of use as a modifier to weight: the potion weighs far less while simultaneously being far easier to carry/wield/use than the wood shield but somehow manages tohave identical bulk values.