Ooze Druids and Natural Spell

[Murdock Mudeater]

Ooze Druid refers to the Cave Druid Archetype, which at 10th level can adopt an Ooze form.

Says, "When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits."

Just double checking if I can use the natural spell feat to cast while in this form. I figured I'd ask, given that it has "no discernible anatomy."

[Bronnwynn]

RAW, you absolutely can cast.

RAI... eh. I'd give it to yah.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Thank you. I love it when they are simple answers.

[Rikkan]

Keep in mind, oozes are blind. And beast shape can only grant blind sense, not blind sight. Thus you can't target other people with spells (since you have no line of sight to them).

[Icyshadow]

That's probably an oversight that needs an FAQ mark, then.

[andreww]

Rikkan wrote:

Keep in mind, oozes are blind. And beast shape can only grant blind sense, not blind sight. Thus you can't target other people with spells (since you have no line of sight to them).

Wild Shape does not change your creature type, you only gain what the particular spell says you gain. The general polymorph rules in the Magic chapter spell out that you lose any extraordinary or supernatural abilities based on your normal form. Darkvision is included there, basic sight is not.

As such if you turn into an Ooze you can still see using your normal vision.

[Blakmane]

Polymorph spells don't actually assign you the basic senses of the creature you become, although realistically you might expect they would.

As a druid polymorphed into an ooze, you can still see and target other people with spells - you are also still affected by glitterdust etc.

The only other alternative is to assume you DO have the same senses (a very reasonable houserule), in which case the question becomes moot regardless.

So, either way, you can see and target just fine.

[James Risner]

You keep normal vision (because nothing says you lose it).

[Some Other Guy]

James Risner wrote:

You keep normal vision (because nothing says you lose it).

Except that you don't actually have eyes?

[Bronnwynn]

Some Other Guy wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You keep normal vision (because nothing says you lose it).

Except that you don't actually have eyes?

Says who?

(My alternatives included "Of course ooze-me has eyes, how else would I see?", "Eyes? Why would I need eyes to see?", and "I don't see how that matters.")

It seems to be a rather glaring flaw. To be fair, most things you transform into are presumed to have sight (plants? not sure on them) so they never wrote the rules on senses in wild shape. Worth FAQing though

[prototype00]

How do the Elementals see then? They don't have eyes either. Druids shifting into Elementals must be, by default, blind then.

prototype00

[Bronnwynn]

Who says elementals don't have eyes? I always kinda imagined them kinda like Warcraft's elementals myself - different shape, but same basic idea, never found a good description of them for DnD.

[blackbloodtroll]

Much like changing into a fish doesn't cause you to suffocate on land, turning into an Ooze does not blind you.

It's not reincarnation, it is a magical transformation.

[blahpers]

Bronnwynn wrote:

Who says elementals don't have eyes? I always kinda imagined them kinda like Warcraft's elementals myself - different shape, but same basic idea, never found a good description of them for DnD.

Their immunity to critical hits and precision damage suggests a homogeneous makeup, though there's room for alternate interpretations.

Their immunity to flanking suggests all-around vision, which would make eyes superfluous--though, again, there's room for alternate interpretations.

[James Risner]

Some Other Guy wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You keep normal vision (because nothing says you lose it).

Except that you don't actually have eyes?

You don't become the new type. Otherwise the "When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits." line would be redundant because in Ooze type it says:

"Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack."

So the only thing that suggests you are blind in Ooze form is the line:
"Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight."

Since there is no rule suggesting, asserting, or otherwise expressing you must gain this trait, you don't.

[blackbloodtroll]

Polymorph spells give no freebies, good or bad.

You take what get in the rules, and that's it.

[Rhatahema]

I would say you're blind. Certain creatures have sight despite lacking eyes, but if the creature is normally blind due to its lack of eyes, I'd say you're likewise blind when polymorphed into such a creature. You already lack a mouth with which to speak or complete verbal spell components, and hands with which to manipulate objects and complete somatic components. I don't see why sight would be an exception.

As a workaround, by 10th level a druid could cast Echolocation. Blindsight 40ft, 10 minutes/level. Though I don't think it would be unbalanced for a DM to house rule that the player gains the ooze's blindsight either.

[blackbloodtroll]

If he is blind, what other unlisted abilities would he gain?

[Rikkan]

Well I thought changing into an ooze would make you blind. Because sight is an ability that depends on form (having eyes etc)

Quote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

But I'm not so sure anymore. I can see DMs ruling either way.

[James Risner]

In short, normal vision isn't Ex or Su.

[Rhatahema]

The capability to speak isn't an Ex or Su ability either, but the polymorph rules still state you need that ability to complete verbal components. Which must mean that certain forms cause you to lose the ability to speak.

I assume that humanoids can see because they have eyes. If they take a form without eyes (excluding those that can inexplicably see without them), then they will lack vision. Is there a rule that states line of sight originates from your eyes? Can I see just fine while blindfolded because the rules don't say I can't?

But I guess it's true that the rules don't say you need eyes to see, or that the reason an ooze is blind is because it doesn't have eyes.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Just looking at the rules. Says to use beast shape 3 or beast shape 4 and we treat the ooze as if it were a magical beast with no natural armor bonus. Then we get the listed bonuses as per the cave druid (no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits).

As I read it, it doesn't actually change you into an ooze creature type. You change into a magical beast that looks like an ooze.

This is implied by granting immunity to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits, which are all already traits of any actual ooze, plus they would gain lots of others, being an actual ooze, so listing those three makes no sense if character is actually changing to creature type ooze. This leads me to believe that it changes you into a magical beast that looks like an ooze. This is supported by the parentheses sentence in the cave druid "wild shape(su)."

Anyway, my question is in regards to the "no discernible anatomy" interacting with the "natural spell" feat, as the description of natural spell seems to indicate a more set anatomy which can be manipulated to replace the verbal and somatic components of a spell.

I suppose, how does elemental form affect the "natural spell" feat? Seems like that would be a similar situation, given the elemental has no mouth or eyes as required features, plus even if they did, they're still made of the same material as the rest of the creature...