Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Society


Starfinder


Starfinder Society

Magic Crossbow and Bane Bolts


Rules Questions


OK,
I have a +2 Distance Crossbow.
I am shooting +1 Bane Bolts.

Regarding Damage-
Do I get +2 for crossbow +1 for the magic bolt and +2 for Bane
Making my damage bonus +5?

Regarding Bonus to Strike-
Do I get +2 for crossbow +1 for the magic bolt and +2 for Bane
Making my TO HIT bonus +5?

(It says the enhancement bonus is +2 higher then normally for Bane)

I believe this is correct but I just want to clarify.
Thank you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

+5 to hit and damage against the bane type. +3 to hit and damage vs every thing else. Ammunition and missile weapons stack and so does bane.


Enhancement bonuses from ranged weapons and ammunition do not stack. You'd get +3 against the object of your hand and +2 against everything else.


Thanks for the confirmation.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My mistake, but it takes the highest value so +4 (bow + bane) and +2 against everything else.

ref: Bane: Against a foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an additional 2d6 points of damage against such foes.


Bane is on the ammunition, not the crossbow, so crossbow is +2, bolts are +1 or +3 against the bane target, therefore blahpers is correct.

Damage is +2 or (+3 + 2d6) against the bane target


Psi51 wrote:

My mistake, but it takes the highest value so +4 (bow + bane) and +2 against everything else.

ref: Bane: Against a foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an additional 2d6 points of damage against such foes.

Correct. I'll break it down a little differently.

The +1 from the bolt and the +2 from the crossbow don't stack so only the higher would count. Thus there would be a +2 Enhancement Bonus. Bane adds another +2 to the Enhancement Bonus against the designated foe.

So against the designated foe you have a +4 Enhancement Bonus which grants +4 on your attack rolls and +4 to damage. Bane also adds +2d6 to your damage.

Against everyone else you have a +2 Enhancement Bonus which grants +2 on your attack rolls and +2 to damage.


The bonuses overlap, but do not stack. You end up with a +1 +2 Bane bolt.

So 1d8 +2; 1d8 +4 +2d6 vs certain creatures.

If you do it a different way, you get into Weird order-of-operations situations.

Grand Lodge

For the target of the bane ammo, you effectively have +3 bolts. Enchantment bonuses don't stack, they overlap and are taken into account separately. +3 bolt overrides +2 xbow, so you get a total enchantment bonus of +3. You also get the bonus 2d6 damage.

If you have a +4 xbow and +1 bane bolts and you target a creature affected by bane, you have a +4 xbow and +3 bolt, so you take the higher of the two and that's it- you have a +4 enchantment bonus. However, you DO still get the extra 2d6 damage from the bane bolts, as that's a different effect than just the +2 enchantment bonus.


A quick search shows various discussions from 2016 and earlier about bane arrows & bows, including at least one FAQ request (which doesn't seem to have resulted in a faq), that all come down to what order you compare the enhancement bonuses and add the bane effect.

All of those threads, and this thread, show that there's people who will argue for each order.

Check with your GM for how they interpret it.


If you break it down vs cost for equivalent enchantments, the +2 Crossbow with +1 Bane Bolts being effectively +3 stays in line, and remember you still get the bonus 2d6 bane damage.
There is a FAQ on bows and ammo for spells of the Magic Weapon/Enhancing line that may help as well. Keeping that in mind, lets look at a +5 Longbow with Bane with non-magic arrows vs a +5 Longbow with +1 Bane arrows.
+5 Bane Longbow: 72,375gp + 1gp(20 arrows).
+5 Longbow with +1 Bane Arrows(50): 50,375gp + 8,302.5gp(50 arrows).
If it matters, for Damage Reduction, for Cold Iron(+3)/Silver(+3)/Adamantine(+4)/Alignment(+5), only the Enchantment Value of the Ammo counts, the Projectile Weapon are only treated as Magic, though may pass on Alignment if Aligned.
+4 Long Bow will not Bypass an Adamantine Golem's DR, but Adamantine Arrows or +2 Golem Bane Arrows from Any Bow would. A +4 Longbow with +1 Golem Bane Arrows would not...

I'm inclined to go with the greater of Projectile Enhancement or Bane Ammo Enhancement, remembering that Damage Reduction is the Brick Wall only the Ammo faces...


The problem with applying the bonuses separately is this scenario:

+1 bane bow with +1 bane arrow.

If you parse them out separately, you get 1d8 +3 +4d6. This leads to the logical conclusion of a bane frost holy bow using a bane frost holy arrow for possible damage of 1d8 +3 +10d6 per shot.

Alternately, (to get 1d8 +3 +5d6 out of the above example while still considering ammo bonus and weapon bonus separately) you're parsing them out then unparsing them then reparsing them in such a fashion where abilities don't apply twice because they parse out after you apply them except when they don't because you parse them out ahead of time to make the abilities final before they're finalized to see how they're finalized.

Grand Lodge

Same bonus types don't stack. Having a +1 frost longbow and using +1 frost arrows doesn't result in an attack that has a +1 enchantment bonus and 2d6 cold damage, it just results in a +1 enchantment bonus and 1d6 frost damage. If it's a +1 frost longbow and you use +1 shock arrows, you end with an attack that has a +1 enchantment and deals 1d6 frost and 1d6 shock. Likewise, bane bows and bane arrows of the same type do not stack to deal an additional 4d6 damage. The loophole is to get elf or orc bane arrows and have a human bane bow, and fire at the respective half-humans :)


Syries wrote:
Same bonus types don't stack. Having a +1 frost longbow and using +1 frost arrows doesn't result in an attack that has a +1 enchantment bonus and 2d6 cold damage, it just results in a +1 enchantment bonus and 1d6 frost damage. If it's a +1 frost longbow and you use +1 shock arrows, you end with an attack that has a +1 enchantment and deals 1d6 frost and 1d6 shock. Likewise, bane bows and bane arrows of the same type do not stack to deal an additional 4d6 damage. The loophole is to get elf or orc bane arrows and have a human bane bow, and fire at the respective half-humans :)

Multiple bane effects do not stack. While the FAQ is specifically talking about multiple banes on a single weapon, the same should apply to a bane ranged weapon and bane ammo (effectively creating a multiple bane weapon).

Quote:

Bane: Can I apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon? If so, do their effects stack?

You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.

If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.

(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)


Syries wrote:
Same bonus types don't stack. Having a +1 frost longbow and using +1 frost arrows doesn't result in an attack that has a +1 enchantment bonus and 2d6 cold damage, it just results in a +1 enchantment bonus and 1d6 frost damage. If it's a +1 frost longbow and you use +1 shock arrows, you end with an attack that has a +1 enchantment and deals 1d6 frost and 1d6 shock. Likewise, bane bows and bane arrows of the same type do not stack to deal an additional 4d6 damage. The loophole is to get elf or orc bane arrows and have a human bane bow, and fire at the respective half-humans :)
Jeraa wrote:
Multiple bane effects do not stack. While the FAQ is specifically talking about multiple banes on a single weapon, the same should apply to a bane ranged weapon and bane ammo (effectively creating a multiple bane weapon).

And I agree that's the only sane way to apply these rules -- that all bonuses from the weapon and ammo apply to the ammo. This would result in the situation that I described in the first post: A +2 bow with +1 bane ammo would result in a +2 bane piece of ammo (+4 +2d6 against certain creatures).

The reading where you get a +3 +2d6 piece of ammo relies on the weapon and ammo being separate weapons whose bonuses are combined when fired. This, of course, would result in a bonus from two different sources affecting a target separately (and likewise cold damage from two different sources applying separately) and result in 1d6 +3 +2d6 +2d6 damage (+1d6 +1d6 cold damage, if both weapon and ammo are enchanted). By the FAQ, of course, you couldn't make a bane (Chaotic Oustiser) bane (Evil Outsider) arrow and have those stack, since they're on the same weapon.

If you're trying to have a +3 +2d6 piece of ammo from the first example and trying to say that bane ammo bonuses and weapon ammo bonuses don't apply together, then you're selectively and inconsistently considering them the same weapon, which is a bad rule/interpretation -- You'd be saying that the bane only applies to the ammo for the bonus, but applies to the whole ammo/weapon system for the extra dice.

Grand Lodge

Ah, that's too bad. I hadn't read that FAQ before. I stand corrected on that regard, then.

Grand Lodge

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Syries wrote:
Same bonus types don't stack. Having a +1 frost longbow and using +1 frost arrows doesn't result in an attack that has a +1 enchantment bonus and 2d6 cold damage, it just results in a +1 enchantment bonus and 1d6 frost damage. If it's a +1 frost longbow and you use +1 shock arrows, you end with an attack that has a +1 enchantment and deals 1d6 frost and 1d6 shock. Likewise, bane bows and bane arrows of the same type do not stack to deal an additional 4d6 damage. The loophole is to get elf or orc bane arrows and have a human bane bow, and fire at the respective half-humans :)
Jeraa wrote:
Multiple bane effects do not stack. While the FAQ is specifically talking about multiple banes on a single weapon, the same should apply to a bane ranged weapon and bane ammo (effectively creating a multiple bane weapon).

And I agree that's the only sane way to apply these rules -- that all bonuses from the weapon and ammo apply to the ammo. This would result in the situation that I described in the first post: A +2 bow with +1 bane ammo would result in a +2 bane piece of ammo (+4 +2d6 against certain creatures).

The reading where you get a +3 +2d6 piece of ammo relies on the weapon and ammo being separate weapons whose bonuses are combined when fired. This, of course, would result in a bonus from two different sources affecting a target separately (and likewise cold damage from two different sources applying separately) and result in 1d6 +3 +2d6 +2d6 damage (+1d6 +1d6 cold damage, if both weapon and ammo are enchanted). By the FAQ, of course, you couldn't make a bane (Chaotic Oustiser) bane (Evil Outsider) arrow and have those stack, since they're on the same weapon.

If you're trying to have a +3 +2d6 piece of ammo from the first example and trying to say that bane ammo bonuses and weapon ammo bonuses don't apply together, then you're selectively and inconsistently considering them the same weapon, which is a bad rule/interpretation -- You'd be saying that the bane only...

Well I am saying that the bolt and the bow are two separate sources, in all cases. If you fire a bane bolt with a nonmagic xbow then you get a +3 enchantment bonus that deals an additional 2d6. If you use stabbing shot with a +1 bane arrow you have a +3 enchantment bonus with the additional 2d6 damage. Unless a xbow's enchantment bonus is higher than +3, you don't get any additional enchantment bonus from your attack.

Another way to look at it. You have a +3 bolt and you have a +2 xbow. Your enchantment bonus is +3. The bane property only ever affects the arrow. Bane is not applied on the xbow and therefore does not give the xbow the +2 enchantment bonus, it only gives the arrow the enchantment bonus.

Grand Lodge

After rereading I see your point about the problem of considering both the arrow and the bow separately. But because both items are used to determine damage, similar effects do not stack, even though the enchantment effects are handled separately between the two items.
Using +1 Bane Frost arrows with a +2 Icy Burst longbow is the same as using a +1 bane Icy Burst longbow, when targeting the bane target. All other times it is as a +2 icy burst longbow.


As with a lot of threads, rabbit trails always develop.

So- I’m going to edit my original post and tell be if this is correct.
OK,
Simple Answer Please, Layman terms...

I have a +2 distance crossbow with +1 Bane Bolts.

What is my strike bonus?
What is my damage bonus?

To much info leads to confusion from the original question.
Thank you.

Grand Lodge

+2 Distance Crossbow with +1 Bane Bolts
Against a target that bane applies to: +3 enchantment bonus to attack and damage, +2d6 damage
Against a target that bane does NOT apply to: +2 enchantment bonus to attack and damage.


Thank you for slicing threw the red tape


Its worth noting that if the crossbow has bane, then the bane should apply to the bolts
Superscript 3) “Projectile weapons with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.”

Bane’s abilty is specifically to increase the enchancement bonus, and damage.
So a +1, bane crossbow firing +2 bolts against its bane target should be counted as +4 bolts.


It's also worth noting that the Enhancement bonus from the bow applies to the ammunition. But people like ignoring that when determining bane damage for some reason.


The bow gives its stuff to the ammo, so the +2 distance gets added to to the +1 bane arrow. Making it effectively a +2 bane arrow. You don't add bane beforehand because it's increasing the total when it goes against the correct enemy. If you are ever getting +3 on the arrow before looking at the bow you've messed up.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The bow gives its stuff to the ammo, so the +2 distance gets added to to the +1 bane arrow. Making it effectively a +2 bane arrow. You don't add bane beforehand because it's increasing the total when it goes against the correct enemy. If you are ever getting +3 on the arrow before looking at the bow you've messed up.

And yet, some people think it's the other way round.


Andy Brown wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The bow gives its stuff to the ammo, so the +2 distance gets added to to the +1 bane arrow. Making it effectively a +2 bane arrow. You don't add bane beforehand because it's increasing the total when it goes against the correct enemy. If you are ever getting +3 on the arrow before looking at the bow you've messed up.
And yet, some people think it's the other way round.

Well, yes, there are people that get rules wrong, that's just a given. I encountered one person recently that I can only imagine thinks all primary natural attacks get 1.5 str, even though the rules clearly say that it's only 1.5 str if it's your only natural attack. Just because people think that way doesn't mean it really has any support to the view.

If at the time of adding the bow's stuff to the arrow and somehow the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but was some freaky +3 arrow that does 2d6 extra damage against this target then the bow would be able to grant this arrow that lacks bane, bane since the arrow doesn't have bane.

Now out of the two options, "the loophole for adding bane twice", or having you add them together to figure out the end arrow (+2 bane) and then applying all the effects of this arrow to the shot it seems clear to me which is the correct approach for the current rules.


Chess Pwn wrote:
If at the time of adding the bow's stuff to the arrow and somehow the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but was some freaky +3 arrow that does 2d6 extra damage against this target then the bow would be able to grant this arrow that lacks bane, bane since the arrow doesn't have bane.

The arrow is still a +1 bane arrow, which means it has an effective +3 to hit the bane target, which is larger than the bow's +2.

So if the bow also had bane, it wouldn't stack with the bane on the arrow.

I don't see that as any more complicated than "the arrow becomes a +2 bane arrow because of the bow's enhancement bonus, and therefore has +4 to hit".
I'm also aware that my view of what is or isn't complicated doesn't always match everybody else's.

To reference your other point, the rules on natural attacks and 1.5 STR are clear; the rules on what order to apply the combination of bow and ammunition enchantments aren't.


Andy Brown wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
If at the time of adding the bow's stuff to the arrow and somehow the arrow is no longer a +1 bane arrow but was some freaky +3 arrow that does 2d6 extra damage against this target then the bow would be able to grant this arrow that lacks bane, bane since the arrow doesn't have bane.

The arrow is still a +1 bane arrow, which means it has an effective +3 to hit the bane target, which is larger than the bow's +2.

So if the bow also had bane, it wouldn't stack with the bane on the arrow.

I don't see that as any more complicated than "the arrow becomes a +2 bane arrow because of the bow's enhancement bonus, and therefore has +4 to hit".
I'm also aware that my view of what is or isn't complicated doesn't always match everybody else's.

To reference your other point, the rules on natural attacks and 1.5 STR are clear; the rules on what order to apply the combination of bow and ammunition enchantments aren't.

If the arrow is +1 bane then the +1 of the arrow is smaller than the +2 of the bow and it would become a +2 bane arrow. If you're looking at a +3 arrow with 2d6 extra damage then it's no longer a +1 bane arrow. It can't be +1 bane and +3 at the same time.

EDIT:
Also this keeps it so it always works regardless of direction. A +1 bane bow and a +2 arrow work the same way. The bow gives it's bonuses to the arrow, and since the bow is never attacking the enemy it can't be triggering the bane on it's own, it needs to pass it to the arrow that then decides how it works. Same here, the bow passes to the arrow and once we have the final status of how magic the arrow is it then does it's magic.


It comes down to whether you apply the effect of bane before or after you compare the enhancement bonuses, and the rules don't say which order to do it.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Also this keeps it so it always works regardless of direction. A +1 bane bow and a +2 arrow work the same way. The bow gives it's bonuses to the arrow, and since the bow is never attacking the enemy it can't be triggering the bane on it's own, it needs to pass it to the arrow that then decides how it works. Same here, the bow passes to the arrow and once we have the final status of how magic the arrow is it then does it's magic.

You know, I think that's the most convincing argument for doing it that way - consistency.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The recent FAQ on magical ammunition nerfed ranged characters.

Before, you would add the +2 enhancement bonus of Bane from the ammunition to the +2 enhancement bonus from the ranged weapon and end with a +4, which would overcome DR up to and including Adamantine.

Now the ammunition is treated separate from the ranged weapon, so you have only +3 against the appropriate creature type.

It's certainly reasonable to houserule the total to +4. That's what the vast majority of players have been interpreting for years.

It was not a well received response.


Having trouble finding that FAQ, Nefreet. Help with a link, please?

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

FAQ

Helpful tool for searching the FAQ

This tells us that an arrow fired from a +2 Bow isn't a "true" +2 arrow. It just counts as magic.

Prior to this FAQ, the arrow was a +2 for all purposes.

Now we're told that we must treat ammunition and the weapons that fired them as separate.


I saw that FAQ, but I thought it was a stretch to say that since it didn't bypass damage reduction it didn't apply in any other situation. I thought you might have some buried link that provided any other information, so I thought I'd ask.

The FAQ explicitly states that the bow bonus works like Magic Weapon, which doesn't have rules saying that it works independently from bane. Taking the FAQ and other rules into account, there's no reason to believe that a +5 Greater Magic Weapon spell placed on a +1 Bane Longsword wouldn't act like a +5 Bane Longsword (1d8 +7 +2d6 vs certain targets).

Or at least, I don't see any FAQ entry stating that the weapon's bonus from Greater Magic Weapon isn't considered the weapon's bonus (with the exception of DR, explicitly called out in the spell).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
The bow gives its stuff to the ammo, so the +2 distance gets added to to the +1 bane arrow. Making it effectively a +2 bane arrow.

This is where you are going wrong.

The bow does NOT give all of its stuff to the ammo. Only specific properties... magic weapon status, alignment, and bane ARE transferred. Enhancement bonus and distance are NOT.

So no, "the +2 distance" does not get "added to the +1 bane arrow". Rather, they remain with the bow, and you then take the greater of the bow enhancement bonus (+2) or the arrow bonus (+1 or +3 vs bane).

It isn't an 'order of operations' question because the enhancement bonus does not transfer to the ammunition at all. Rather, it remains with the weapon, and only the higher of the two applies.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The Longsword example isn't equivalent, because it's the same, single item. I agree that it would become a +5 Bane Weapon.

The FAQ uses the word "true", in quotation marks for emphasis. It's telling us that the arrow isn't really +2. It only counts as magic (and alignment, but that's outside of this discussion).

You'd obviously get +2 to-hit and damage when firing the weapon, but the arrow itself isn't +2, so Bane on the arrow wouldn't bump that to +4. Against the appropriate foe, a +1 Bane Arrow would become a "true" +3 arrow. But since enhancement bonuses do not stack, you'd take the +3 over the +2.

During the backlash from the FAQ earlier this year this was one of the points being brought up in the many discussions.


Okay, so you're referencing some conversation outside of the scope of the FAQ. That makes sense. The FAQ's wording implies that it would work like Greater Magic Weapon.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That is one aspect of the FAQ, yes.


I assume you mean that acting like Greater Magic Weapon is "one aspect of the FAQ" since "discussions outside of the scope of the FAQ" being one aspect of the FAQ doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what you mean, though, by saying that it works like Greater Magic Weapon and then contradicting that without any reasoning afterwards. Are you just talking about some community consensus agreement on rule interpretation, then?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can anyone cite some place in the rules where enhancement bonuses are said to be transferred from the weapon to the ammunition? Because that is the supposed basis of the disagreement here... and so far as I can tell, it doesn't exist.

Lots of things (e.g. magic weapon status, alignment, the bane property) specifically ARE said to transfer. Other things (e.g. enhancement bonus, distance property, etc) are not.

If the weapon enhancement bonus does not transfer to the ammunition (and I can find NO rule suggesting otherwise) then the whole 'debate' here goes away. Note that it also matches the DR FAQ... the ammunition doesn't overcome DR based on the weapon's enhancement bonus because that bonus does not transfer to them.


From the prd:

Quote:

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.

It says the higher enhancement applies, not that it's transferred to the ammunition.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Indeed. The arrow is not a "true" +2 arrow with Bane upping it to +4.

It is a +1 arrow with Bane upping it to +3.

Though as I mentioned up thread, since the consensus for so long was that the arrow received the +2 from the bow, which was then upped to +4 from Bane, it wouldn't be an unreasonable houserule to continue running things that way.

But if this is for PFS, or your GM runs things based off of PFS, then you're stuck with just a +3.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Magic Crossbow and Bane Bolts All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.