How to improve at combat tactics?


Advice


I know this is a noob question, but what are good tactics or outside the box approaches to combat?

I am playing my first pathfinder campaign and my party has 3 characters.
One rouge, one monk and my fighter.
My fighter is build on DEX instead of than strength and he wields two short swords.

The rogue is just starting to get the hang of using her sneak attacks and the monk usually deals out more damage than my fighter.
Our approach up to now, was to just try and kill everything in sight, without much thought.

It's simply positioning our characters in a way that allows the rogue to have a sneak attack and then to just simply attack (no combat maneuvers what so ever).

I'm aware now that instead of going 1 on 1 with the bad guys, it is more effective to reduce their numbers as fast as possible.

So I wanted to ask you what advices you had as far as preparation before a fight, useful items and strategies of engagement (laying traps, ambushes) or anything you believe could help us out improving as a team.

Thanks in advanced for your time reading this far!


Default combat stuff:
Flank. Just Flank. It is a +2 to hit, this is a big difference, it will massively help the rogue, and your two weapon fighting.

Choke Points. If you are fighting through doorways and the like, don't go in to the enemy. Force them come to you.

Set up to flank the doorway, and throw some caltrops down on your side of the doorway. That makes it difficult terain so the enemy basically has to eat an attack of opportunity to get at you guys.

Always carry splash weapons like alchemist fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am going to make a suggestion.

Fighter is a really difficult class to build well for your first ever character.
There are so many feats and such that it is very easy to build a bad character.

Dex based fighter is slightly underwhelming.
If you would like and your GM is ok with it, we can look at your build and help on that front.

If you want to go two weapon fighting you can possibly do it better ranger.

Also if you have a monk and a rogue, I HIGHLY reccomend getting pathfinder unchained.
The unchained rogue is literally better in every single way.
The unchained monk is also widely considered to be better than the core monk.

Are you guys running a published adventure from Paizo or is the GM running a homebrew? In a published adventure path you guys really should have a magicy guy


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It sounds like your party is kind of weak - three characters with zero magic? - so tactics probably aren't your biggest problem. Hopefully you've got a GM who won't make you fight anything too nasty...

Suggestions:
Use stealth routinely. Many parties have one character who's bad at stealth and who gives away your location - make sure this isn't you.

Learn to use 'Delay'. Let's say the turn order is:
Rogue
Fighter
Enemy
You can often do better if the Rogue delays until after you. Then you move into position to give flanking, then the Rogue comes out of delay and gets sneak damage.

Make sure you all have decent missile weapons. Hanging back and firing arrows and waiting for them to come to you may be more effective than charging in there (basically, any time there's a large area and enemies who aren't ranged attackers themselves).

Do your best to compensate for your lack of magic by carrying potions and alchemical items.


Try to get as much info as possible on the enemy you are about to fight.


Thanks a lot for all the input!

@J4RH34D

We did see the usefulness of chokepoints at some points in our adventure and will now look to use them more effectively.
I was also considering the caltrops and alchemist fire.
On this last one, could you expand some good ideas of how and when to use it efectively, so we don't waist them (they are a little expensive for our broken selfs)?

We are using the unchained Rogue and Monk.
As far as my own character, although he is underwhelming at the moment, I quiet enjoy roleplaying him.

I'm looking to build him on the two weapon fighter feats, with a focus on short swords (finesse, focus, specialization) and a mix in some critical booster feats (improved, focus).

I'm hoping that at some point I will get my hands on agile weapons to be able to dish out my damage with dex instead of str.

@Matthew Downie

Yes, we are already feeling the lack of magic damage some times.
We started out with a summoner player in our party, but he dropped out from the group after he was turned down by the girl of the group . . . yeah, that happened.

And regrettably, I'm that sucker that ends up stepping on the blasted twig and gives away our position. . .
We started to use the delay option to give the rouge a better chance to sneak attack.
Besides heal potions and alchemist fire, what else would you recommend (holy water)?
@Rackdam

How would you recommend to do that?
Ask around at the towns NPCs?


What does the monk do? With a TWF fighter and rogue in the group, the monk could do really well by focusing on combat maneuvers. If they can trip or grapple or blind (using Dirty Trick) the enemies, you and the rogue should be able to make short work of them. Would they be up for doing that? What are they doing currently?

Also, you and the Rogue could consider taking the teamwork feat Outflank. What level are you at?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A two-weapon fighting ranger (guide archetype) might be a fun alternative to a two-weapon fighting fighter. More skills, good Reflex save, and easier method of gaining bonus feats. You can even buff your allies with your Hunter's Bond ability, and gain a few critical spells, like cure light wounds.

You and the monk benefit from taking full attack actions, where you only get a 5 foot step, but can either fight with both weapons (your fighter) or use flurry of blows (the monk). If the rogue is just using a single weapon, she can move around into flanking positions, using the Acrobatics skill, if necessary, to avoid Attacks of Opportunity.

Also, if the monk stuns an opponent, the rogue can sneak attack it while it's stunned.

It's also effective to focus all your attacks against a single opponent, instead of each of you fighting your own opponent.

Also, you can get a +1 on attack rolls for being on higher ground, so you can jump up on tables or stairs or ledges or whatever and get that bonus.

Pathfinder is all about adding up lots of little bonuses, so flanking, getting on higher ground, charging, etc. Page 195 has a bunch of Attack Roll Modifiers and Armor Class Modifiers. You want to figure out what you can do give yourself bonuses, while giving your enemies penalties. Positioning is an efficient way to get some of these bonuses. You can use a standard action to trip an opponent, or demoralize them using Intimidate, but you are doing that in place of making a damaging attack, so you have to take that into consideration.

Another way to cause more damage to your enemies is to make your enemies provoke Attacks of Opportunity. For example, when the monk stuns an opponent, it drops its weapon, and when it goes to pick up its dropped weapon, it provokes an attack of opportunity. If the enemies have to move 10 or more feet within your threatened area, it provokes an attack of opportunity.

As you can see, the monk's Stunning Fist ability can be very useful in helping the rest of the party make attacks.


there's really not much to do, is so often very hard to set up traps or ambushes since as the main guys you're the ones usually needing to go and do a thing. And once you're already in a fight, spending time laying caltrops is probably not the best thing to do with your turn.

And combat maneuvers are really only kinda good if you really outnumber an enemy.

3v1 the three of you all attack and the guy dies.
3v1 the first drops caltrops, second trips and last disarms enemy is still alive though easier to kill.
3v2 the three of you all attack one and that guy dies and then you fight 3v1
3v2 you drop the caltrops and disable a dude and then his friend is still there and then you finish of the disabled dude and the friend is still there and then you fight 3v1
3v2 first person trips one and second person trips the other and now both are kinda disabled.

So you see that killing enemies is the pretty good way unless you have multiple people able to lay down the combat maneuver reliably.


Hi Marcos

Ok, so when to use:
Caltrops: If you have the rime to create a chokepoint before a fight starts use these, and then pick them up again afterwards, the GM should hopefully allow this.
Alchemist's Fire: if you are funneling the enemy through a choke and you can hit 1 person with the main attack and atleast 1 person with the splash these can be great options.
Remember, you can't get the loot if you die. The number 1 priority is to not all die.
Another situation for alchemist fire is if the enemy is grouped up in cover, and you can splash multiple people. It can be very useful.
Honestly the main reason for alchemist fire is to fight swarms in the early levels, as weapons often do no damage.

I am going to second what someone else said up thread, a ranger specialised in two weapon fighting may likely be better than a fighter. This is primarily due to the extra utility the ranger allows over the fighter.
For one you will be able to get spells and be able to use healing magic from wands and the like.
Secondly you get so many many more skills that it is scary.
Thirdly, you can take the two weapon fighting feats before you should be able to, due to the ranger combat style.

Changing class does not mean you have to change the way you play the character in the slightest.
You could change to a ranger and still be a fighter for hire/whatever you are currently playing.

The only issue with the ranger is all the nature themed stuff like track and such, but only if you don't like that.
There are a bunch of archetypes that may make the ranger a better fit for the campaign by trading out the very wilderness themed abilities.

If you are set of being a fighter have you looked at the two weapon warrior archetype for the fighter? It trades out some stuff but gives you a lot of cool two weapon fighting stuff


Read The Forge of Combat. You won't be able to do everything recommended in there with the party you have, but it is still good for inspiration.

Next time you go shopping to replenish your Alchemist's Fire, see about getting some Tanglefoot Bags. This would be useful for making opposing parties like your own get some of their members out of position (entangled or even stuck, and can't get to where they need to be fast enough). Also beware that an opposing party might use this on you. If you rebuild as Ranger, when you get to 4th level, you can get the spell Entangle to save you some uses of Tanglefoot Bags when you are in the appropriate environment. Note that a Tanglefoot Bag is not effective against Huge creatures, and decreases in effectiveness as opponents get stronger and get better Saves. And yes, you should probably get some Holy Water when you can in case of an Undead emergency, although several types of Undead you should be able to handle with normal attacks as long as they aren't too numerous.

Congratulations on running a D- (actually F3-) team! This is going to be tough (not only no casters at all, but undersized party), but one good thing you'll get out of it is that if you survive, you will learn to work without depending upon a healbot. If you go on long like this enough to get the hang of it before someone else joins, this will be much to the relief of whoever joins, especially if they are a Cleric or something similar. If they know what they are doing, they would rather be doing something like this (although preferably not dumping Intelligence as recommended in that guide, which is quite dated), rather than being sucked into a healbot role. You will also HAVE to learn good teamwork to survive.


I suggest that one of you dips a level in bard or another quick casting class for access to the Cure Light Wounds spell. Every party needs at least one person that can heal people. You could dip in Hunter for the spell and also get an animal companion that will fight with you. And if you dip 3 levels total, you get Outflank for free and another teamwork feat, both of which the companion would share.


If you just want Cure Light Wounds (which is NOT the only healing you're going to need), you could just invest heavily in the Use Magic Device Skill and get Wands of Cure Light Wounds (preferably more than 1 in case you accidentally deactivate 1 of them for a day by rolling a natural 1 on your Use Magic Device roll). This saves you from a dip, and is a good idea even if you do eventually get somebody capable of casting Cure Light Wounds, in case THEY go down.


If it's just wands of CLW... ranger gets that and is full BAB. Or paladin. And both have class features that improve TWF when they apply (favoured enemy and smite).

Grand Lodge

Count actions.

Quick example charge and attack. The enemy then takes a full attack.

or

Delay they move up to you and take a single attack and you take a full attack.

The second is clearly better. The issue with this is you don't get to choose who they attack. You should use stealth and positioning to draw targets to the tankiest character.

Second example.

The reason a choke point works is it allows your 3 melee combatant to fight 1 enemy while the other enemies waste their turns. Once the first dies the second steps up and take their place fighting 3 pcs.


Grandlounge wrote:

Count actions.

Quick example charge and attack. The enemy then takes a full attack.

or

Delay they move up to you and take a single attack and you take a full attack.

The second is clearly better. The issue with this is you don't get to choose who they attack. You should use stealth and positioning to draw targets to the tankiest character.

Second example.

The reason a choke point works is it allows your 3 melee combatant to fight 1 enemy while the other enemies waste their turns. Once the first dies the second steps up and take their place fighting 3 pcs.

My personal favorite is to move up and ready, then they have to move but you get the first swing off and then you'll get the first full attack off too. Saves you from having a turn you didn't attack in, while also prevents the enemy from having more attacks than you.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:

Count actions.

Quick example charge and attack. The enemy then takes a full attack.

or

Delay they move up to you and take a single attack and you take a full attack.

The second is clearly better. The issue with this is you don't get to choose who they attack. You should use stealth and positioning to draw targets to the tankiest character.

Second example.

The reason a choke point works is it allows your 3 melee combatant to fight 1 enemy while the other enemies waste their turns. Once the first dies the second steps up and take their place fighting 3 pcs.

My personal favorite is to move up and ready, then they have to move but you get the first swing off and then you'll get the first full attack off too. Saves you from having a turn you didn't attack in, while also prevents the enemy from having more attacks than you.

This is the best option with a reach weapon aoo and ready action.


In general, my answer to your title question is practice and study. I have a lot of tricks to share.

I'm not sanguine about 2WF with short swords.

What is your character's Dex? How heavy can your armor be?

You could start dipping into Unchained Rogue yourself, gaining Dex-to-Damage with your Short Swords and doing some Sneak Attack Damage yourself.

You could take Agile Maneuvers and take Dirty Trick Feats, Blinding your opponents and locking in Sneak Attack Damage plus, now you are throwing beat-downs to blind people, you bad man.

Like Grandlounge was saying, high Dex sounds like Attacks of Opportunity to me, too. Take a level in Cavalier and take Broken Wing Gambit. BWG is a Teamwork Feat, and Cavaliers have an ability to gift their Bonus Teamwork Feats to their Allies. What BWG does is when any of you get attacked, all of you get Attacks of Opportunity. The chances are high that your Rogue and Monk already have Combat Reflexes.

Since you can make an AoO with any weapon, you usually do better to use a big weapon like a Greatsword, Bastard Sword, or Halberd. Depending on your Feats, Classes, Archetypes, and Race, you might fight with Bastard Sword or Halberd and Shield and use Armor Spikes as your off-hand weapon. Armor Spikes do 1d6 like your short swords. Bastard Swords and Halberds do much more: 1d10. You can't Dex-to-Damage with a Halberd, but you can Sneak Attack with one.

I love putting together wicked combinations of Feats and abilities to achieve powerful effects, but the ways I have always been super useful to my party is by being flexible and well-prepared: having the right tool for the job, having an answer when fighting close up, fighting at range, fighting while Blinded, fighting Oozes and Swarms, and generally being ready for anything.


By the way, if you do want to stick with Fighter wielding two short swords, at level 5 (if you didn't dip anything), get Weapon Training (Blades, Light) (of course), AND using your 5th level character feat get Advanced Weapon Training (Effortless Dual Wielding) to cut your Two-Weapon Fighting penalties from -4, -4 to -2, -2. This is better than the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype, which trades out Weapon Training and doesn't get an equivalent replacement that allows you to get Advanced Weapon Training. Then you have to worry about how to survive before 5th level, so before 5th level, use a dagger (or something else that falls into the Light category) in place of one of the short swords to get the same effect but with a smaller weapon in place of the second short sword.


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One thing you might consider when you get more gold in the party: alchemical items. Right off the bat I can imagine that Smokesticks, an item that instantly create Concealment, could come in very handy in modifying the battlefield to ensure that your stealthy PCs can Stealth and that foes' ranged attacks are less effective.

Other things to look at:

1. Net - even without proficiency this is a 2h thrown attack targeting Touch that inflicts Entangled, a nice Condition at low levels
2. Train an animal - either buy an attack dog or go through the trouble of training one yourself; use said attack dog to inflict Trip or set up Flanking
3. Brewed Reek - an expensive alchemical item but it potentially inflicts Nauseated AND Sickened!
4. Potion of Vanish - yes, it's 50 GP, however this gives your rogue 1 round almost guaranteed to get them into position to deal Sneak Attack damage
5. Tanglefoot Bags - another expensive alchemical item but another way to Entangle and potentially stop the movement of a single foe
6. Oil and fire - stick with me here: oil is cheap, as are torches. Keep lots of both handy and use torches as a light source so they're conveniently already aflame when a fight breaks out. Target a square with a vial of oil; this makes that square slippery (though there's no mechanical difference listed under the entry for Oil in the rules) but that pool can also be lit on fire causing a minor hazard to foes passing through that square. If the three party members establish three flaming squares and move back 5', they may be able to engineer their own chokepoints by virtue of foes not wanting to stand in burning oil to battle them.

Lastly... hirelings. These are NPCs the party can hire to come along on their adventures. Perhaps, with some clever negotiation, a small daily wage and a modest cut of loot from adventures your party can convince a Warrior 1 or perhaps an Adept 1 to come with you to provide some benefits in combat.

As for tactics you can employ here are some that regularly come up at my table:

1. Charging: +2 Attack, -2 AC; allows you to combine your attack AND moving up to twice your speed in one action
2. Aid Another: if the three of you find yourself ganging up on a single, tough-to-hit foe, consider using Aid Another to grant either a +2 Attack bonus or a +2 AC bonus to an ally on/against a single attack
3. Cover: really use your environment; ducking behind a statue, around a corner etc for Cover grants +4 AC and +2 Ref save
4. Higher Ground: in line with Cover, using your environment to get just 5' up gives a quick +1 on Melee attacks

Some handy tips:

Bring Cover with you: if you've got someone big and strong and aren't concerned with moving quickly or in Stealth, carry a big box, crate, small table, etc. It sounds silly but being able to throw your own Cover out there for a quick +4 AC against the villains' opening salvo can be a life saver

Always scout ahead: you have both a rogue AND a monk in the party - no reason why you shouldn't have someone moving 20' - 30' ahead of the party and making sure you're forewarned about the most obvious threats

Work off your rogue: at low to mid levels, without access to magic, your rogue and monk are delivering roughly the same potential damage IF the rogue can get Sneak Attack in. With that being the case you want to set up strategies like Delay, Ready Actions and Flanking to ensure Sneak Attack is maximized

Backup Ranged weapon - sling: Do your characters have decent Dex AND Str bonuses? If so, if engaging multiple opponents or from range across Difficult Terrain, consider using Round 1 of the combat to fire sling bullets.


^Good points . . . except:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

{. . .}

Always scout ahead: you have both a rogue AND a monk in the party - no reason why you shouldn't have someone moving 20' - 30' ahead of the party and making sure you're forewarned about the most obvious threats
{. . .}

This isn't necessarily wrong, but from what I have seen from many posts, it sounds like it is really easy to mess this up and get the scout ambushed (and captured or killed, or worse). I would have suggested using a scout that is disposable and/or even stealthier than the Monk and Rogue, but unfortunately, when the Summoner left, so did your best disposable scout option, and nobody in this party has a Familiar or an easy way of getting one; spells exist for making disposable scouts, but nobody in this party is a caster, and they are high enough level that Scrolls would be expensive, and while Wands would save some money over Scrolls in the long run, the initial capital investment would be enormous.

One other thing to consider is that if you are going to send a PC (as opposed to disposable) scout from a party that is of only 3 characters, you really splitting the party (only 2 members remain behind). Since you have 2 members that are at least potentially good at Stealth (the Monk and the Rogue), a better way to do this would be to let them both scout ahead, but have your Fighter follow behind by only a very short distance (always stay in sight of each other!), and have your Fighter invest more than normal in Stealth: See this guide to get Stealth as a class skill by way of a trait, and use the Additional Traits feat if you have to), and stick with Light Armor for longer than you normally would (which synergizes with your Fighter having high Dexterity). When you can, have the whole party get Stealth Synergy (Teamwork Feat) so that you add everybody's modifiers to Stealth and take the party's highest roll for everyone. Being an undersized and under-castered party, in a lot of cases you will want to avoid fights altogether, or at least delay them greatly.

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