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In a few weeks I'm going to be helping out a brand new LGS grow a PFS night. I've DMed PFS quite a bit, but except for the various Free RPG Days, it's been mostly with friends. This will be with strangers, whomever shows up.
And I have a question about Players bringing in Archetypes or Feats or Traits or Spells or Equipment from legal but non-Core sources.
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In order to use material that does not appear in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook for your character, you must bring ONE of the following:
A physical copy of the book,
A name-watermarked PDF copy of the book,
Name-watermarked printouts of all relevant pages of the PDF, or
Access to the rules in the form of either electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document or a photocopy of the relevant pages, along with proof of purchase, such as a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page. (my bold)
A photocopy of a physical book does not satisfy this requirement, nor does Hero Lab or any other form of electronic character builder.
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Is this EVER enforced?
How do I handle it if a Player brings in a PC to the brand new PFS event and doesn't have proper paperwork for Feats, Archetypes, Spells, Traits, Equipment or what have you?
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I've never seen it enforced, even at larger events. Although, you are well within your rights as the GM to say they must produce proof.
Generally, people pull out their phones and look it up online (I see this constantly and even saw it at today's game).
I generally require people to know their characters at least.
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Auditing of characters is a requirement and MUST be done before a game. Exactly how it is done is the GMs responsibility.
Got a quote from the guide for this? I've never heard of this being required before every game or seen that practiced.
As far as I know the GM is allowed to perform an audit if he wants, but is under no such obligation.
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Oh, it's definitely something that varies by region.
But it is something that's known, so if you don't bring your sources and you're audited, don't act surprised if you're handed a Pregen for that Adventure.
Of course in the OP's example of setting up a new location, it would be wise to not start everything off in a militant style.
Use the opportunity to explain the rules to new players, and that they should expect the regularly scheduled show to begin in the near future.
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List week was the first time I've ever even been close to seeing an audit (but I've only been playing society since June, but in that time I've been to five conventions and played twice weekly minimum at multiple local stores). I was prepared for it, as I'm playing a fairly bizarre character using several uncommon choices (Grippli Medium Fiend Keeper) on top of a pretty unconventional boon (Expedition Manager from GenCon). I had relevant materials with me, but outside of asking "You have a grippli boon?" and "Can I read expedition manager?" the game master just looked everything up on his phone as we played. I came prepared regardless, which is 100% what I suggest, especially as a level 3 god powered frog with multiple magic weapons of various materials.
And from my understanding, that's exactly the reason you bring your stuff with you. The GM needs to be able to look at what you're updating and you can't count on the SRD. They're not always complete, often leave out vital information (like racial requirements), might go down, etc. It's a good idea to be prepared for the worst.
But outside of the cross eyed looks I've gotten for my ridiculous froggy friend, I don't think I've played with someone whose been involved in a full audit in either side. Mostly everyone just assumes you're following the rule until they've got reason to think you aren't.
Does your character have 14 strength and use a greatsword by any chance?
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@ Nefreet,
At PaizoCon a few months ago no one looked at any of my Chronicle Sheets before any of the Scenarios. (Which I was kinda hoping they would since it was almost exclusively DM-credit and I was hoping for some auditing & advice -- just so time-constrained at PaizoCon)
At Free RPG Day I DM for PreGen Goblins (and whatever pre-gen PCs came with that Osirion adventure, Risen from the Sands or whatever). So there was no need to check PFS Chronicles.
Most of the Scenarios I've run were at home with friends or colleagues who I taught the game to and helped build their PCs (and taught the difference between a d20 and a d-whatever). So obviously no need to check there.
Now I'm going to be DMing regularly at an LGS to strangers -- assuming people show up of course (fingers crossed) -- and I need to start making sure I'm following the rules.
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it's probably best not to point fingers or throw any stones as it's not gonna get us anywhere...
let's just get it right
probably the best way is to incorporate it into your routine. To reinforce it put a box that says "reviewed players' chron, ITS, character sht, source matl []" on the top of your report form.
Really I think of it as a GM helping out the players to stay legal and maybe make a wise suggestion or two.
"Hey you're a 6th level Rogue, cool, when were you thinking about upgrading that cloak to +2? It'd help on your reflex saves."
"Did you buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds for 2PA? You're 4th level! The drawers of the Silver Crusade are full of them!"
While it sounds like this could be a positive, it could also RAPIDLY turn into a negative, because not knowing about a thing or making character choices to not purchase/upgrade a given item will then sound like the *wrong* choice, and that there's only *One True Way* to play Pathfinder.
Case in point, my paladin at L7 still doesn't have a Cloak of Resistance, because she'd been saving for a suit of Mithril Plate for a good long while.
It would have been a bit of a turn-off if at L4 I had a GM get in my face (perception is important!) and suggest/insist that I get a Cloak of Resistance or purchase a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (was saving Prestige for Raise Dead/Condition Removal post-game).
As it was, though, she DID pick up a Wand of Lesser Restoration, because that only made sense. Cloak of Resistance is on the list of 'When spare cash is had lying around' expenditures.
After the 'res fund' was fully stocked, then expendable purchases of Prestige became commonplace, but until that point was reached (Pre-Season 9 one could not mix-and-match Prestige/coin) there was a definite concern as she wasn't armored very well for her level.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Players do have to have legal characters and the need to have the sources for everything.
I tend to explain everything to new players, and often check new characters... after some point, I can get trusting. After seeing a lot of builds, having way too many characters and reading way to much there is a certain performance window where a PC does not gather a lot of attention.
If your PC significantly outperforms or underperforms I will have a couple of probing questions.
There are players who still receive a lot of trust in that regard, mostly those who have consulted me or other trustworthy sources.
Others really get a bit of an audit at every table, since they made one questionable assumption too many.
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Regarding sources, this might be a regional thing, but I have to check those rather rarely.... and players usually want to avoid annoying me... and they really really want to avoid getting caught at lying to my face..that tends to make me rather cross.
Quite a lot of that is also true for GMs who have taken too many liberties (i.e. the scenario was hardly recognizable, changed things for no reason etc.) and I recently had to explain to a GM why I am not going to accept him as GM at my events.
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Basically the TL:DR: Don't abuse my (considerable) trust and time slot constraints, I am very busy at events and your shenanigans might cause people to starve, or events not to repeat.
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Please don't suggest that GMs should not share their ideas with players or vice versa. Assuming GMs will take it over the top and intimidate players is not a nice suggestion.
Much as noted above, *presentation* is as important as *perception*.
It is hard to read 'tone' on the Internet, in text, without being painstakingly precise in one's text. And even then, it is colored by personal *perceptions* based on experience.
It is also hard in person to convey a proper positive tone and encourage without at least a handful of individuals immediately misconstruing what they have been told as advice as absolute truth and that they have somehow failed at basic reading comprehension, when the facts of the matter are far from it.
There are and have been GMs locally that have taken a rather... not-QUITE-insulting approach to such things, which has colored my Perception of your Presentation.
Know the players before offering what appears to be helpful advice? It could turn nasty in a heartbeat, or it could be a moment of community-affirming Awesome.
I know which one I'd prefer to see, at least?
This aside, we had someone who was playing a Gunslinger who hadn't purchased their materials. Rather than see them 'bounced' after putting some time in on their character, I gave them an Ultimate Combat book straight out.
Admittedly, it was a bit weathered and worn, but it was going to a good home and I knew the player would get more use out of it than I was.
No, I don't expect folks to give away hardcovers to help their fellow players (unless they want to).
At the same time, working together as a team and understanding that everyone has a different life and learning experience curve is crucial to good community development.
Explore. Report. Cooperate.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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When setting up a new location, or explaining PFS to a bunch of new players, it might be good to have a moment where you explain how the source material rules work, and why they're fair.
Explain to the players that:
- They need to own the books they use. For two reasons: because it's fair to pay for what you use, and to have a rules reference.
- Ideally they can produce the books on demand for the GM to look at, so he can read rules you're using himself.
Ways to do this are: lugging books along, tablet/laptop/smartphone with the PDF with your name in the watermark, printout of the PDF with your name in the watermark.
- It does get unwieldy to bring everything. If you have a good second source for the rules (the PRD) then just bringing proof of ownership is sufficient.
Proof of ownership can be: store receipt for the book or showing your Downloads page.
Furthermore, it's fair that you pay for these things:
- They cost money to make and you're choosing to use them.
Paizo isn't a vampiric music company and this isn't the 90's. They're not overcharging you for PDFs and not forcing you to buy books you don't use.
- PFS is fairly subsidized; VOs get access to scenarios for free and are allowed to loan copies to GMs. Playing doesn't earn Paizo any money. Any fees are generally to gain access to a venue to play.
Compare the cost of going to a PFS session (4-5 hours) to going to a movie that long (2x 10€ or so just for admission, and you haven't bought any overpriced drinks yet). PFS is dirt cheap to play. But scenarios do cost money to develop.
- You really aren't forced to buy those heaps of books. You can make a viable character with the CRB. 8/11 of the CRB classes are good enough to succeed in PFS without additional books.
You want to use extra abilities from additional books. They're awesome. Fine, pay for them.
And I mean all this in a very positive way. We've all heard a lot of hypocritical BS from rich media companies about barely-merited IP. But Paizo is an honest company making things we enjoy, for a reasonable price. Paying for what we use is the right thing to do. That's the message we need to get into peoples' heads.
I'm sympathetic to people who haven't got heaps of money; I too built up my collection step by step. But the price of a PDF is just about the same as a Burger King menu, so it's really a matter of choosing what you want more.
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The table I played with at the last PaizoCon special had the GM do a quick audit, and one of the players was told they couldn't do something with their animal companion because (I think) they hadn't purchased the Animal Archive. It was perfectly fair and the player and GM handled it gracefully.
I only GM PFS/SFS home games, but I try to set the right tone by checking that Chronicle sheets are complete and in order before each game, and skimming character sheets to make sure they work. If I ever GM at a store or convention, I'll continue the same practice.
Even something as simple as spot-checking some skills to see if everything tallied proved useful last night, when one of the players didn't realize his auto-fill character sheet was *adding* his armor check penalty to his skills instead of subtracting it.
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Guys this all has been a tremendous help.
Thanks!
(If I succeed and get this PFS off the ground at the new LGS, I'll be making more and more Threads with my questions.)
. . . .
I was never concerned with the Novice/Beginner Table sign-up sheet. I've taught this game to so many folks over the decades I can't count them. And I know how to do it well -- AND come here when I DO need help or just a bit of advice, of course.
My concern was (IS) for the Advanced/Expert Table sign-up sheet.
I know that at the giant LGS 15 miles south the big problem used to be all the tables were ALWAYS full of low level PCs, for years, and the small few Players who did have a couple mid-to-higher level PCs never got a chance to play them. (I didn't really see this much first-hand because I play almost exclusively at home with close friends, not a fan at all of playing at an LGS with complete strangers. REALLY not a fan! But I heard.)
So as part of helping out the new LGS I want to have a night for advanced Players, too. And so I want to know both official policy and how various VCs and such handle some things (such as when someone brings Archetypes and Spells and Equipment I've never even heard of).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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My concern was (IS) for the Advanced/Expert Table sign-up sheet.
I know that at the giant LGS 15 miles south the big problem used to be all the tables were ALWAYS full of low level PCs, for years, and the small few Players who did have a couple mid-to-higher level PCs never got a chance to play them. (I didn't really see this much first-hand because I play almost exclusively at home with close friends, not a fan at all of playing at an LGS with complete strangers. REALLY not a fan! But I heard.)
This is often a problem with small locations, where you don't want to turn any new players away, so you often end up playing low level.
The thing I find that helps is to do some of the following:
- Keep telling people that high level scenarios are awesome.
- If people are scared about higher level because it's supposed to be harder, make sure to schedule some of the milder high-level adventures so people have a chance to learn the ropes. Try to schedule harder adventures only if you can get a few experienced players to commit too so they can help the rest. (With firepower but also advice.)
- It's easier if you schedule scenarios in advance, with a signup system like Warhorn. You can offer specific scenarios, so that the people who want to player higher level can be assured of really having a table.
By offering higher-level scenarios ahead of time, you can also reduce people constantly making new characters because they think only low-level scenarios are on offer and their character just became too high level.
- You can use the session tracker in combination with Warhorn to select scenarios to schedule. You can offer a "to be determined" scenario in Warhorn say a month in advance, then when you get 2-4 people signed up look in the session tracker which scenario they could all play and turn it into that. It makes scheduling soooo much easier.
So as part of helping out the new LGS I want to have a night for advanced Players, too. And so I want to know both official policy and how various VCs and such handle some things (such as when someone brings Archetypes and Spells and Equipment I've never even heard of).
In general I trust people to know what they're doing, but if I see something I don't know, or think sounds iffy, I ask them to show it to me and check if it's really legal.
I'm considered fairly knowledgeable in rules, but there's so much out there that I don't know all of it either. That doesn't hinder me much. As long as you understand the core of the game well, it's not too hard to understand how a new fringe thing would interact with it.
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So, if you don't have time (or don't want to) do a full audit, and just want to do additional materials checks...
Part of my spiel for introductions is to have folks tell me what additional materials they are using. For at least one or two folks at the table, I'll use a technique a former organizer in the Cities used.
Player: So, my character is a Mesmerist, and he has the the Disorientation Stare.
Me: Cool, so what does that do?
Player: Well, it gives the stare penalty to attack rolls.
Me: Neat! I haven't seen that one before. Do you mind if I read that section of the book?
So, what is done there is to ask the player to show you the material so that you can read up on it... if they don't have it (or are claiming Hero Lab is a source material), or they show you it on the d20pfsrd, or whatever, you can say, "Well, those aren't legal sources, and sometimes they will paraphrase or change text. I need to be able to read it from the source."
You can do this even if you know the ability inside and out... just to make sure they have it. However, I find that there are abilities I don't know, and this does come in handy!
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"Well, those aren't legal sources, and sometimes they will paraphrase or change text. I need to be able to read it from the source."You can do this even if you know the ability inside and out... just to make sure they have it. However, I find that there are abilities I don't know, and this does come in handy!
I second this. It also makes it easy if they say "I have a PDF" you can say "Great, can you pull it up on Paizo super quick?".
Now, for me I've gotten to the point where I have more paizo books that I can conceivably carry, plus PDFs. So I keep pictures of all my physical books as proof that I own them in a folder on my phone, and all my PDFs either on my kindle or just show my Paizo list. Not super relevant, just a tip for people who's backs are giving out from to many paizo books.
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@W E Ray, I'm starting my second Lodge and was surprised to find there wasn't any guides for this, Treantmonk's guide to Venture-Agents? I wish you the best!
I've been patient with explaining the audits and material ownership, and have tried to work it in with coaching discussions with new players and with geeking out with experienced players.
First session for a player: Auditing (skimming) a new character to ensure they understood the point buy, have taken traits, used their gold, recommend useful cheap items. I try to start with the confirmation in order to have some of these talks through Janira. I don't know why but this over the top halfling puts everyone at ease and sets a theme for the rest of the campaign. Explain the expectation of material ownership. Explain the chronicle sheet. Hand out the session 0 chronicle sheet, link.
Second session for a player: Talk about prestige purchases, explain that they can buy a wand and then ask someone else to use it on them. Make sure they understand that mundane items are always available.
Third session for a player: Explain fame purchasing limits, and the always available list. I flavor that powerful magic is hard to source, the Society helps but only for those who they are invested in. Explain the factions somewhere in here.
Fourth session for a player: Audit their level up. For a new player this is answering questions and checking that they are not missing things, even offering advice where it is welcome. For an experienced player this is discussing the level up to look for any incorrect assumptions they have made, also a time to geek out about this awesome game. Rehash the material ownership, ensure they are aware that PDFs are affordable, express strong disapproval for 'just finding it online'. Hand out the welcome to pathfinder boon,
link, I hand it out when they hit level two to help with information overload.
From there I had a discussion/audit every time a character would level up, mostly just discussing the game and geeking out. The actual sessions I run are very focused and on topic so it is a great time before the game, during audits, to relax and make friends. As we discuss the level up and their cool feats and items, any errors are quickly revealed.
First convension for a player: Rehash material ownership and scare them that if they don't have proof of ownership for all the resources they are using, they will have to play a pre-gen. (Actual enforcement at the convention varies, but the point is ensure they understand that this is Serious).
As for enforcement on the above, I run a fix this before the next game philosophy. No animal archive, bring it next week. Discover an incorrect feat mid game, keep the game running but fix it or retrain it for next week. And actually enforcing the following week. This works for my style and the local culture, but results will vary greatly choose what works for you.
You are building a community, the Two Wolves Parable applies to communities as mush as it applies to the self.
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As mentioned upthread, the amount of auditing varies by region, by coordinator, and by GM.
As you're the one who is the organizer, you basically get to set the tone. If you are organizing in a store, I'd also highly recommend you discuss with the owners / managers of the store who may have an interest in you turning away customers or encouraging folks to bring multiple book bags worth of product through their store - some venues may be wary of having an identical product vanish into a bag.
The source requirement is to make sure that GMs have access to valid source material for adjudication, not to make the GMs the Paizo product-enforcement police.
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I do audit, though I do not GM as much as I used to. Not everyone, for time constraint reasons, but for the odd-ball mechanics.* I have asked folks to show me the wording and have refused their phone-open-to-non-legal-sources. I know what they were doing was legit (experienced GMs at the table have confirmed it for me). But they didn't have the source & I have called them out on it.
Both times it has gotten that far, however, I have said something akin to ' [feat/ability] won't come up again this scenario, you can bring me the source next week, but this is not a legal character, please make it legal before you play it again. (hopefully I have said that in a less harsh tone that it comes across here but...)
IGSW and infernal healing have become a pet peeve of mine. I am more likely to call that book out than any other. & not in my best avuncular tone either. It isn't pretty, but that is my personal prejudice in action.
I do a fair amount of PbP, and because time allows it, do more comprehensive character audits there.
I know many other regulars have purchased everything regardless of what their actual build is & just don't audit them except to make sure I understand the rules.
*largely ACG classes which are wonky to me even without going into archetypes & splat books.
Honestly I wish more people would audit me. Twice this season I have already played characters that hadn't been leveled up. In one case it would have put me out of tier. Mostly I am just sad that I have one less game to play my 9th level wizard at (and played at boring 8th level tooOOoo much). .
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On another topic. We have found that our small venue can only support two tables a week. Each week we have a low tier table. The other rotates through low-tier, mid-tier, high tier, and now starfinder tables.
When we were only one table weekly, it went more like low-tier, low-tier, mid-tier, low-tiers one month; then low, low, high, low the next month. If you go this route, make sure to have plenty of pre-gens on the non-low tier table days. Playing a 7th level pregen paladin with your 3rd level paladin's personality makes playing the pre-gen feel more like your character. Playing the higher-tier version of a class, also lets the new folks enjoy the upper level games.
Good luck W.E Ray & thanks for starting up this new venue!
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Yeah lack-of-time is a thing for me in a big way. I can DM a PFS Scenario at the new FLGS on rotating Wednesdays. And I'd like to do one week with the beginners and one week with the experienced. Which means one Wednesday per month for the Player. I don't have time for really anything else. Just want to help out a brand new FLGS and help promote Paizo at the same time (The FLGS doesn't yet really support Paizo products; I'm hoping to help grow some demand for it.)
My fear was (is) just sitting down to DM an experienced table of strangers and being caught flat footed with an archetype or feat or spell I've never heard of. And how do I handle it according to protocol, and be fair and consistent, and be graceful and keep 'em coming back.
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The easiest thing to do is to go with their interpretation initially provided it seems possible, then research it later. Something might happen that isn’t 100% by the rules, but it’s not a huge deal if people are having fun. If something means the difference between a character dying or failing the mission, maybe look at it more closely in the moment.
Also, after you’ve run a few games at the location, especially for the experienced players, let the group know if you’d like to expand to more games a night or more games a month. You may find people willing to step up and GM on days you can’t be there or GM a second table so you can have a low level table and a mid or high level table on the same day. Or just so you can take a week off when you need it.
EDIT: Also, I’ll be in Tampa some at the end of the year and off and on the first few months of next year. Bradenton (if I’m connecting the posts correctly) is a bit of a drive, but I’ll gladly come and run a game for the location sometime once I figure out my schedule and when exactly I’ll be around.