Revan,
Have you read all of my posts?
I have said, over and over, that it is the GMs call whether and how this would work.
I have also said I could see how it could be interesting. I even came up with some ways I might want to handle it.
I am saying that the rules don't support your very first post, or several other extensions I can see being pushed for if the rules did support it.
I am sorry this thread has pushed you into such an adversarial state. I'll stop posting on it.
Since I've waited about 50 posts for someone to post this James Jacobs quote about witch patrons, I guess I'll do it.
Emphasis added by me.It's unfortunately very poorly defined. A witch's spells are arcane, so she doesn't depend on an outside source; she gains the power and manipulates it through her studies. A witch's patron is more akin to a college student's "major" in that way. It's the focus of her studies. A witch doesn't have to worry about losing her magic because her patron vanishes or dies or because she switches alignment; she always has that same patron.
The problem is that the word "patron" is really not the right word for this concept, and I wish we'd gone with something like "focus" or "inspiration" or a more accurate term.
Alternately, I wish we would have used the idea of a Faustian bargain more accurately, and have a witch's patron be ACTUAL things like Dagon or Nyarlahtotep or Mephistopheles, complete with ramifications if the witch betrays that bargain.
As it stands, it doesn't actually work that way, and the word "patron" is kinda just the wrong word for what it's actually doing.
The reversal here is sort of a shame, because the concepts involved were actually pretty interesting. Wonder why they decided to back off the idea of patrons.
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Because exploring the concept of patrons risks the dissolution of the distinction between Arcane and Divine Magic. Also because it means paying a writer to come up with actual Patrons, and lists of the themes they grant. Which sounds an awful lot like a deity/domain list doesn't it?
Just throwing this out there... I'm making it up on the spot... its not cannon or published anywhere (that I know). Any similarity to existing archetypes is purely coincidental.
The Herald Witch
A herald witch must worship a deity, and receives her spells through that deity (with her familiar acting as the conduit).
A herald witch has an aura just like a cleric.
A herald witch a prepared Divine Caster (who still uses INT as her primary casting stat); she does not suffer arcane spell failure, cannot cast spells opposed to her deity's alignment, and can be stripped of her witchcraft if she ever ceases to revere her deity (she has an ex-witches section just like clerics have an ex-clerics section).
The herald witch selects one domain (just like a cleric); and adds the spells associated with that domain to her familiar's list of spells known as soon as she becomes high enough level to prepare them. She does not gain any of the domain abilities associated with that domain, just the spells. A herald witch's familiar can still commune with other witch's familiars to learn spells from them normally.
The herald witch gains access to the "Prayer Hex" instead of the Cackle Hex. The herald witch's prayer hex functions just like the cackle hex, except that it requires that she pray to her deity in a strong, clear voice.
I like this, but we actually have a bit of design space room left over to play with to let this archetype gain the Domain Powers -- just have these replace the 1st level and 8th level Hexes, except that if a Domain's higher level power is gained before 8th level, it replaces the next earlier Hex instead (usually 6th level). A Herald Witch who is also a Hex Channeler gains +1d6 of Channeled Healing/Damage when the Domain's higher level power is gained (this allows a Herald Witch/Hex Channeler who replaces all remaining even-numbered Hexes to be consistently just 1 level behind a Cleric in Channeling Energy).
Also, a Herald Witch's Divine Bond can take either of 2 forms:
- Emissary Familiar -- if the Witch has a Familiar, it will always have the Emissary archetype, except that Domain Influence expends a use of the Herald Witch's 1st level Domain Power, and does not replace Deliver Touch Spells. This potentially allows the combination of Emissary with other Familiar archetypes that would not normally be compatible with Emissary. If this option is chosen, it modifies the Witch's Familiar.
- Bonded Holy Symbol -- this works exactly like the Bonded Holy Symbol of Ecclesitheurge Cleric, except that it is gained at 1st level, and the Witch's spells are stored in the Bonded Holy Symbol instead of a Familiar. If this option is chosen, it replaces the Witch's Familiar.
A Herald Witch is bound by a vow identical to Ecclesitheurge’s Vow (of Ecclesitheurge Cleric).
I dislike when archetypes replace "talent" selections with fixed options... they are so rarely worth the slot they gave up.
I would rather include access to a Domain Hex that can be selected up to twice. Granting the 1st domain power the first time, and the 2nd domain power the second time. Naturally is would have to include a clause preventing you from obtaining the second domain power before a cleric could. So if the power normally kicks in at 8th, you can take it with any hex you receive at 8th level or later.
^Not a bad idea, except for one problem: This modifies the whole Hex class feature, thus denying compatibility with any archetype that modifies any Hexes. Although Prayer Hex already burned that bridge . . . Actually, instead of having a separate Prayer Hex, reload the Cackle Hex to be a Cackle/Chant Hex that functions identically between Witches and Shamans, and optionally can consist of a prayer (more commonly used by Herald Witches and Shamans, but can be used by anyone who can gain access to the full standard Hex list). The flavor of the Cackle Hex always bugged me -- it is thematically fine for a dominating villain, but in a PC party, pretty soon this seems like a high risk factor for suffering the fate of Sir Robin's Minstrels . . . .
Then don't list it as "Altering the Witch's Hexes" just give them an extra class feature that modifies their selection of hexes without actually altering the Hexes class feature itself.
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Isn't this basucally a Shaman? Divine prepared casting, hexes and thematic additional spells based on association
Because exploring the concept of patrons risks the dissolution of the distinction between Arcane and Divine Magic. Also because it means paying a writer to come up with actual Patrons, and lists of the themes they grant. Which sounds an awful lot like a deity/domain list doesn't it?
Well they could have kept them intentionally vague if that were concerned, instead of backpedalling on the original concept.
Isn't this basucally a Shaman? Divine prepared casting, hexes and thematic additional spells based on association
It is similar yes, but not quite the same.
Shamans don't actually receive their spells from a deity either. As evidenced by the fact that the lack a restriction on casting spells opposed by their deity's alignment, and that they lack an "Ex-Shamans" section.
I really wish it was that easy, but I think that ship sailed some time ago. If all divine casters get their power, from the deities, then every Ranger, Druid, Shaman and Hunter would get their powers from a deity/pantheon, which doesn't seem to be the case.
Shamans don't actually receive their spells from a deity either. As evidenced by the fact that the lack a restriction on casting spells opposed by their deity's alignment, and that they lack an "Ex-Shamans" section.
Divine casters that worship a deity get the spells from that deity
Yes, if ANY divine spellcaster worships a deity (which is the case for the majority of divine spellcasters in Golarion, regardless of whether or not it's the case for the majority of PC divine spellcasters in any one game), then his divine power does indeed come from that deity and the spellcaster's faith in that deity. That's why it's called divine spellcasting and not arcane spellcasting.
Some divine casters can function without deities because other entities provide them powers (nature/spirits/justice/etc.) but if they are worshipping a deity then they receive spells from that with everything it entails
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Skipped reading page 2-4. :-)
Since the question still appears to be open, I will say:
Witches cannot get the feat since they don't receive their spells.
My witch's patron, unbeknownst to him, is a deity.
The deity teaches the knowledge of spells to the familiar.
The witch studies the familiar's knowledge to gain his spells.
Studies =/= receives.
/cevah
Divine casters that worship a deity get the spells from that deity
Yes, if ANY divine spellcaster worships a deity (which is the case for the majority of divine spellcasters in Golarion, regardless of whether or not it's the case for the majority of PC divine spellcasters in any one game), then his divine power does indeed come from that deity and the spellcaster's faith in that deity. That's why it's called divine spellcasting and not arcane spellcasting.Some divine casters can function without deities because other entities provide them powers (nature/spirits/justice/etc.) but if they are worshipping a deity then they receive spells from that with everything it entails
Nope, that only applies to classes with an "Ex-" section (such as Clerics and druids). As far as the RAW is concerned, a Shaman or Oracle can tell the deity they worship to ****-off without risk of losing their powers. Even in PFS, only Clerics, Inquisitors, Paladins and Warpriests must choose a deity to worship (barring certain PrCs, archetypes, orders, etc...).
James only writes lore, he doesn't have any credibility as a source for rules.
If your class can "fall" and loose spells, then you receive spells from your deity.
/cevah
Skipped reading page 2-4. :-)
Since the question still appears to be open, I will say:Witches cannot get the feat since they don't receive their spells.
My witch's patron, unbeknownst to him, is a deity.
The deity teaches the knowledge of spells to the familiar.
The witch studies the familiar's knowledge to gain his spells.Studies =/= receives.
/cevah
The witch doesn't study Patron spells.
-"Some gain power through study, some through devotion, others through blood, but the witch gains power from her communion with the unknown"Also...
- "This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power"
If the Patron is granting power, that means the witch is receiving the granted power from the patron. Power granted is in the form of spells. The spells are not powered by the patron. The patron only grants access. If the spells were powered by the patron then the spells would be divine.
This is why the flavor is leaning in a direction that is quite different than other arcane casters.
Nope, that only applies to classes with an "Ex-" section (such as Clerics and druids). As far as the RAW is concerned, a Shaman or Oracle can tell the deity they worship to ****-off without risk of losing their powers. Even in PFS, only Clerics, Inquisitors, Paladins and Warpriests must choose a deity to worship (barring certain PrCs, archetypes, orders, etc...).
Oracles do not have an "ex-" specification yet they receive spells from a deity regardless of their allegiance.
James only writes lore, he doesn't have any credibility as a source for rules.
This is laughable
Revan,
Have you read all of my posts?
I have said, over and over, that it is the GMs call whether and how this would work.
I have also said I could see how it could be interesting. I even came up with some ways I might want to handle it.
I am saying that the rules don't support your very first post, or several other extensions I can see being pushed for if the rules did support it.I am sorry this thread has pushed you into such an adversarial state. I'll stop posting on it.
I was originally addressing Rysky a lot more than you, as my question was intended to press on the idea that there was only a singular and unique version of each Patron, which above and beyond the question of whether a deity could be a patron, is the core of my disagreement here. I did get rather frustrated by your reply of that question, which seemed rather overly precise in response to a question about rather straightforward flavor. ("The standard flavor for this archetype is that I'm part of an order of witches created by Baba Yaga the Queen of Witches, the Queen of Witches who keeps my homeland in eternal winter. Can I name my Winter Patron Baba Yaga per the indication that a Patron's actual name is decide between the player and the GM?") I have felt a bit like I have been accused of trying to 'game the system', which is frustrating when I've concerned myself withe the discretely flavor-related part of the argument, and specifically tried to avoid mechanics--but I think it was unfair to put that on you, that in retrospect, I was probably misinterpreting your tone, and I apologize for that.
At this point, I don't think that there is much more to be gained from my continued presence in the thread, so I'll simply restate my position once more and take my leave:
The given flavor of the witch describes them making a pact with otherworldly entities, the familiar acting as the 'herald' of the Patron in question. This suggests to me that a Patron has an active will, rather than being simply the nebulous concept of the theme itself. Structurally, the sentence saying that Patrons 'have influence over the following forces' very much indicates that the proceeding list is not identifying the Patron themselves, but aspects of their power--yes, in much the same way as a Domain, the two abilities having exceedingly similar mechanics, with their primary benefit being a list of bonus spells. Combined with the permission for the Player and the GM to customize Patron names, it seems abundantly clear to me that there are meant to be many different entities that could act as a Winter Patron. If all this causes this arcane casting class to take on a distinctly divine flavor, that seems entirely by design and *precisely* what makes the witch most interesting to me. It's hardly alone in that design space. The Celestial Sorcerer could easily be flavored as blessed by a deity; its cousin the Empyreal sorcerer is a Wisdom-based caster who channels energy, but remains Arcane. So does the Faith Singer Bard who gets domain spells as spell-like abilities, and must be within one step of their god's alignment.
Should a witch with a deity as a Patron have to worry about losing her casting by displeasing their Patron? Sure, but I don't think that's a special failing related to the case of the deity-as-patron, but a thematic failing of the Patron mechanic as a whole. Provided that the players and the GM are on the same page to start, witch flavor absolutely supports that their familiars can and should refuse to help them prepare spells if they're not working in their Patron's inscrutable ends.
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Suddenly I got this vision of a Witch archetype that has to pay money to subscribe for spell access . . . this is a Witch that has to serve a Patreon.
Suddenly I got this vision of a Witch archetype that has to pay money to subscribe for spell access . . . this is a Witch that has to serve a Patreon.
Pun aside the Witchwyrm kinda does this as for spellcasting instead of a familiar he has to accumulate cash