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So this is alter summoned monster
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-summoned-monster
And this is mount
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/m/mount
Mount doesnt have the restrictions on spell casting that summon monster has. So if you heigthen mount to 9th level and cast alter summon monster to turn it into a glabrezu demon.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/glabrezu
So without the restrictions of spell casting what stops this from giving free wishes?
I only want to hear a RAW reason, I understand this is effectively pulling a Pun-Pun.
Mount is not a variable summon monster spell. Alter Summon Monster can only change a monster into another choice allowed by the spell.
Mount HAS no other choices to be switched into.
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Mount is not a variable summon monster spell. Alter Summon Monster can only change a monster into another choice allowed by the spell.
Mount HAS no other choices to be switched into.
Here is the text of the spell.
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target. The new creature cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support it. The target can attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect, but if the target is under your control, it receives no saving throw. Alter summoned monster does not alter the duration of the spell that summoned the target, nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target. The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature, and remains affected by all curses, diseases, poisons, and penalties that affected the target, but no other spells or effects carry over. Alter summoned monster is a spell of the same alignment type or types as the creature for which you exchange the target. An eidolon can't be targeted by this spell.
You swap a creature from a conjuration summoning spell (which mount is) for a creature that you could summon with a summon monster spell of the same level or lower.
I am not seeing any requirements that the original spell be a variable summon monster spell. Where are you reading that?
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Mount is not a variable summon monster spell. Alter Summon Monster can only change a monster into another choice allowed by the spell.
Mount HAS no other choices to be switched into.
Here is the text of the spell.
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target. The new creature cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support it. The target can attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect, but if the target is under your control, it receives no saving throw. Alter summoned monster does not alter the duration of the spell that summoned the target, nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target. The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature, and remains affected by all curses, diseases, poisons, and penalties that affected the target, but no other spells or effects carry over. Alter summoned monster is a spell of the same alignment type or types as the creature for which you exchange the target. An eidolon can't be targeted by this spell.
You swap a creature from a conjuration summoning spell (which mount is) for a creature that you could summon with a summon monster spell of the same level or lower.
I am not seeing any requirements that the original spell be a variable summon monster spell. Where are you reading that?
Your basically swapping out for a creature of the same lvl or lower from the summon monster/summon nature ally's list. That means its under the same restrictions as if you would have summoned the creature actually using one of those spells. That means no using it to summon other creatures, teleporting/plane shifting and most importantly no wishes.
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I've actually noticed the heightened mount/alter summon monster exploit before, and by RAW it does work, with all the text lining up. However, this idea is new to me. I have a feeling it shouldn't work, but this is fun.
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Well, Wish has an instantaneous duration....
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell
That's the text stating that any creature you choose from the summon monster or summon nature's ally spell list is still subject to the same restrictions as if you used that very same spell to summon the creature itself.
One a side note if you can get your GM to approve getting wish this way then be my guest, but no good GM worth their salt would allow this.
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Back in my day we just used simulacrum to make our snow cone wish machines.
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You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell
That's the text stating that any creature you choose from the summon monster or summon nature's ally spell list is still subject to the same restrictions as if you used that very same spell to summon the creature itself.
One a side note if you can get your GM to approve getting wish this way then be my guest, but no good GM worth their salt would allow this.
Where are you reading it is subject to the same restrictions as a summon monster spell? The text says you change the monster to one you could summon using those spells. Full stop. No restrictions are placed on it.
What is your reasoning?
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You already quoted it:
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spellCan you summon a monster with a wish (Sp) using summon monster? No? Then you can't get one with Alter Summoned Monster.
The Glabrezu demon
Now it cant use it if summoned by way of summon monster but he has the ability. He can use it if summoned by way of mount since it has none of these restrictions.
Look at its stat block. Now look at summon monster nine. Notice how it is on that list?
You can summon it but it cant use that ability if it was summoned by way of summon monster but we are going the route of mount. Alter summon monster doesn't change the parameters for mount. It would say so if it did.
When you cast summon monster nine you summon a glabrezu demon who has a spell like ability to grant wish once a month. However summon monster has this line that prevents it from using it.
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
That line is not in the mount spell. You did not summon the Glabrezu demon using summon monster. You summoned it using mount. That line does not apply. Therefore it can use the ability it has to grant wishes.
Any rebuttal?
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Yes, but you don't care since it isn't agreeing with you.
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He is, in a sense. Alter Summoned Monster is great to use on Mount regardless, mind you, because of the long duration. Halek is just saying that, given there is no clause in the spell prohibiting it, expensive material SLAs are usable by the summoned horse/demon.
Also, the Summon Evil Monster feat allows you to summon Efreeti.
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He is, in a sense. Alter Summoned Monster is great to use on Mount regardless, mind you, because of the long duration. Halek is just saying that, given there is no clause in the spell prohibiting it, expensive material SLAs are usable by the summoned horse/demon.
Also, the Summon Evil Monster feat allows you to summon Efreeti.
This. Wish machines should never be used and there are already a bunch of them but what i am saying is this is yet another you shouldn't use but it works. You could use it to get a bunch of everburning torches from a lantern archon for instance. If someone thinks this is broken feel free to house rule it to not let that happen.
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He is, in a sense. Alter Summoned Monster is great to use on Mount regardless, mind you, because of the long duration. Halek is just saying that, given there is no clause in the spell prohibiting it, expensive material SLAs are usable by the summoned horse/demon.
Also, the Summon Evil Monster feat allows you to summon Efreeti.I understand what he is saying, I just think he is incorrect. The limitation is carried over by the phrase that says that you get the same monster as you could from Summon Monster.
Can you get a wish-granting Glabrezu from summon monster? No.
A non wishing granting glabrezu is not a creature summon-able. The stat block for summon monster includes the ability to use wish once a month. That is what a glabrezu is. There is a clause in the spell summon monster preventing it from casting it but it still has the ability.
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A non wishing granting glabrezu is not a creature summon-able. The stat block for summon monster includes the ability to use wish once a month. That is what a glabrezu is. There is a clause in the spell summon monster preventing it from casting it but it still has the ability.He is, in a sense. Alter Summoned Monster is great to use on Mount regardless, mind you, because of the long duration. Halek is just saying that, given there is no clause in the spell prohibiting it, expensive material SLAs are usable by the summoned horse/demon.
Also, the Summon Evil Monster feat allows you to summon Efreeti.I understand what he is saying, I just think he is incorrect. The limitation is carried over by the phrase that says that you get the same monster as you could from Summon Monster.
Can you get a wish-granting Glabrezu from summon monster? No.
How does the spell do that? If the statblock says Wish (Su), then the creature can use Wish (Su). What mechanism is being used to prevent a creature from using an Su ability? Are they being mind controlled so that they don't even try to use it? Is there a spectial contingency counterspell or anti-magic effect? What happens if a summoned Glabrezu tries to use it's Wish (Su) ability?
What makes you think that there is some unspecified preventative mechanism, rather than you're in fact summoning a special manifestation that just doesn't have access to those types of abilities?
A creature summoned with a summon monster spell cannot use abilities that replicate spells with expensive material components. No mechanism is given in the spell description. Just like there is no mechanism on how you summon lightning with lightning bolt or fire with burning hands.
It doesn't say to remove the ability from the creatures stat block and summon a weird version. It says creatures cant use it when summoned with summon monster.Full stop.
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A creature summoned with a summon monster spell cannot use abilities that replicate spells with expensive material components. No mechanism is given in the spell description. Just like there is no mechanism on how you summon lightning with lightning bolt or fire with burning hands.
It doesn't say to remove the ability from the creatures stat block and summon a weird version. It says creatures cant use it when summoned with summon monster.Full stop.
Calling down lightning doesn't conflict with other game mechanics. Nor does the burning hands spell.
Saying a creature can't use an ability that is listed in their statblock does.
That said, yes you do summon a 'weird version' of a creature with summon monsters spells. They don't actually die when 'killed', their gear disappears, they essentially are the 'essence' of a creature that inhabits a created body. So no, they most certainly are not the same actual thing as the actual creatures defined by that statbock.
Full Stop.
Lets set this up as a flow chart
Mount spell into
Alter Summon Monster
into Glabrezu
Nowhere is the spell Summon Monster Cast in that sequence of events. If you check the stats on the pathfinder reference document or the bestiary the Glabrezu has wish. Since summon monster is never cast its restrictions dont apply.
Where are you getting applying the restrictions of another spell to a different spell?
The only reason we look at summon monster is to find what creatures are eligible to turn our mount into. That is all the rules reference. If further restrictions were meant to be placed on it it would say something like
"the summoned creature is treated as if it was summoned with summon monster"
but it took great pains to make it general conjuration and not include that.
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Nowhere is the spell Summon Monster Cast in that sequence of events.You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell.
And?
That just says what monster we can turn it into. Not apply all restrictions of summon monster.
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Nowhere is the spell Summon Monster Cast in that sequence of events.You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell.And?
That just says what monster we can turn it into. Not apply all restrictions of summon monster.
That is exactly what that means. You cannot summon a wish granting Glabrezu through SM.
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That is exactly what that means. You cannot summon a wish granting Glabrezu through SM.Nowhere is the spell Summon Monster Cast in that sequence of events.You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell.And?
That just says what monster we can turn it into. Not apply all restrictions of summon monster.
There is a monster called a Glabrezu. We summon it with summon monster. Summon monster has additional language preventing the use of spells with expensive material components.
Example of what summon monster does
Stats Glabrezu
stuff
stuff
stuff
wish(sp) stuff
stat block over
now using wish is not a legal action the glabrezu can take. It has the ability but it cannot use it per summon monsters rules.
It would be like moving while paralyzed. You still have 30 ft in your stats you just cant use it.
Alter summon monster has us look to summon monster for our list of creatures and their stats.
It doesn't say apply all restrictions of summon monster.
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If summon monster doesn't summon a Glabrezu but some similar but differently statted creature then why does it just reference the Glabrezu stats?
It includes the language on expensive material component spells. Mount doesn't.
... none of the summon spells reference the creatures stats. It says you can summon a Glabrezu, but you can't use wishes or other costly SLAs.
Mount isn't the spell you need to look at. Alter Summoned Monster is. And Alter Summoned Monster uses Summon Monster rules.
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The summon spells call out the creature. The Creature only has one set of stats.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/summonMonster.html#s ummon-monster-ix
Alter summon monster is saying look at this list for your creatures. Can we agree on that?
You say we should apply this line from the spell?
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
I are we in agreement so far?
I say it doesn't mention doing that and that line only applies to summon monster.
IS this the point of contention?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yes it does.
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell.You COULD summon a Glabrezu. You cannot summon a wish granting Glabrezu.
+1
Also, Mount can't summon anything but a mount, so alter summoned monster's design of letting you make a different choice doesn't result in a different choice. So since mount isn't a summon monster/natural ally spell, you don't get other choices.
Additionally, using heighten to increase the leave doesn't make a SM1 into a SM9, so you'd still only get choices of the "same level" namely SM1 when heightened to a 9th level spell.
All 3 of these responses are RAW as are the OP's interpretations. Ultimately since there is no solid proven RAW, ask the GM is the best course. The "GM" of PFS had a comment on this trick if I remember.
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I feel like 50% of threads on the Rules Question forum go like this:
RAW Person: "Look, I just found this dubious and ambiguous combination of rules that allow me to completely break the game!"
Common Sense Person: "No you didn't. And even if you did, applying those rules in the way you want to completely break the game is something no sensible GM would allow."
RAW Person: "But it's RAW! Any GM who doesn't allow it has to make an affirmative explicit house rule to prohibit it, and this isn't the 'homebrew' forum."
And on and on . . .
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I feel like 50% of threads on the Rules Question forum go like this:
RAW Person: "Look, I just found this dubious and ambiguous combination of rules that allow me to completely break the game!"
Common Sense Person: "No you didn't. And even if you did, applying those rules in the way you want to completely break the game is something no sensible GM would allow."
RAW Person: "But it's RAW! Any GM who doesn't allow it has to make an affirmative explicit house rule to prohibit it, and this isn't the 'homebrew' forum."
And on and on . . .
Yaeh pretty much. Though before using anything asking the gm is for the best. I have played in groups where they have had several houserules for so long they just forgot. Saying houserules up front is a must.
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There is value in not asking the GM for things you know are unbalanced. Even if the GM were to grant permission, you may annoy other players or put the GM in an awkward spot having to rescind permission.
(Also, it's not really considered a houserule to make a reasonable interpretation of an ambiguous interaction like this.)
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I feel like 50% of threads on the Rules Question forum go like this:
RAW Person: "Look, I just found this dubious and ambiguous combination of rules that allow me to completely break the game!"
Common Sense Person: "No you didn't. And even if you did, applying those rules in the way you want to completely break the game is something no sensible GM would allow."
RAW Person: "But it's RAW! Any GM who doesn't allow it has to make an affirmative explicit house rule to prohibit it, and this isn't the 'homebrew' forum."
And on and on . . .
Perhaps - it would be a better way to view it as eye opening that so many people can read the same text and come to different conclusions - as such every one of these is a note of where to watch the rules for odd interactions or potential conflicts where two reasonable people might disagree.
The arguments themselves might diverge into the realm of silly - but I do appreciate the logic behind each side as it allows me to decide how to rule it in my home games without arguments at the table.
I've actually noticed the heightened mount/alter summon monster exploit before, and by RAW it does work, with all the text lining up. However, this idea is new to me. I have a feeling it shouldn't work, but this is fun.
It is based on the incorrect grouping of Mount with the Summon Monster family, of which there is absolutely no basis for. If Mount were part of the Summon Monster family, Summoners would be using their SLA's to make use of it.
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I've actually noticed the heightened mount/alter summon monster exploit before, and by RAW it does work, with all the text lining up. However, this idea is new to me. I have a feeling it shouldn't work, but this is fun.It is based on the incorrect grouping of Mount with the Summon Monster family, of which there is absolutely no basis for. If Mount were part of the Summon Monster family, Summoners would be using their SLA's to make use of it.
Alter summon monster just requires a conjuration(summoning) spell. Now summon monster is the most common but it isn't the only one. Mount is a conjuration(summoning) spell.
Mount meets the requirements to use alter summon monster on it. You swap the creature with one you could summon using a summon monster spell of the original spells level.
(shenanigans with heighten aside for now)
Cast mount.
Cast alter summon monster targeting mount
Get creature from summon monster 1 list. Higher if Heightened.
Do you have any objections to this chain of events?
We are arguing if the restrictions on casting expensive material component spells now apply. That is a separate issue.
Summoners SLA calls out summon monster as the list it draws from. It doesn't relate.
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Yes it does.
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell.You COULD summon a Glabrezu. You cannot summon a wish granting Glabrezu.
So are we in agreement that you can use alter summon monster to get 2 hour per level summons, don't bring this to PFS, and ask your DM in a homegame for spellcasting?
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I've actually noticed the heightened mount/alter summon monster exploit before, and by RAW it does work, with all the text lining up. However, this idea is new to me. I have a feeling it shouldn't work, but this is fun.It is based on the incorrect grouping of Mount with the Summon Monster family,
Nothing wrong about that. There are lots of "conjuration (summoning)" spells that are not part of the summon monster family.
ETA here's a partial list of "conjuration (summoning)" spells that are not part of the summon monster family, but are nevertheless valid targets for alter summoned monster (all are from Core):
* Elemental Swarm
* Insect Plague
* Summon Nature's Ally X
* Summon Swarm
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Cast mount -> Cast alter summon monster targeting mount -> Get creature from summon monster 1 list
Higher if Heightened.
restrictions on casting expensive material component spells now apply. That is a separate issue.
The first thing you must understand is the rules are written in a conversational way.
So the chain you suggest, the rules are written to assume the use of SM or SNA or similar "Summon Meladaemon" type spells. So assume 1 round per level.
Your use of Mount isn't what the Alter Summon Monster spell is designed to interact.
Your use of heighten isn't designed to interact as well, as it's clearly not what the Alter Summon Monster spell is talking about when it says "from a spell of the same level or lower".
All the other summon spells tend to say "works like" when relevant. So if they designed Mount to be used to summon a demon with Wish, they'd put the line about "expensive material components" in the spell. Horses don't have SLA so it wasn't needed, but would exist if needed.
So in short, it doesn't work inside the scope of how the rules are written and designed. Pathfinder isn't Magic, there are not combos to be found by evading restrictions in creative rules interpretation ways.
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Wait, you're using a level 1 spell as a 9th level spell to get a 9th level spell?
I'm pretty sure with highten spell you still can't get a level 1 spell to emulate a level 9 spell. And I'm sure I've read that exact phrase somewhere in the RAW.
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Wait, you're using a level 1 spell as a 9th level spell to get a 9th level spell?
I'm pretty sure with highten spell you still can't get a level 1 spell to emulate a level 9 spell. And I'm sure I've read that exact phrase somewhere in the RAW.
Sure you can. You just need to burn a 9th level spell slot to do it.
Heighten spell works by promoting a lower-level spell into having the various properties of a higher level spell. For example, let's say that normally your fireball spells (normally a 3rd level spell) have a save DC of 16. If you're out of third level spell slots (for whatever reason), you can use a sixth level spell slot to cast fireball, but the save DC is still 16. And it still won't get through a globe of invulnerability.
With the Heighten Spell feat, you can use a 6th level spell slot to cast fireball as a 6th level spell, and it's treated as a 6th level spell instead of 3rd level. This means the save DC is now 19, and the globe won't affect it. But note that you still had to cast a 6th level spell using a 6th level slot.
The only trick here is taking advantage of a longer duration for a very specific spell. Ordinarily, you could use a 9th level spell to summon, for example, a trumpet archon. For a second-level spell, you could then turn that trumpet archon into, for example, a cloud giant.
Now you can use a 9th level spell and a second level spell to summon a trumpet archon, but the archon will last all day instead of only for a few rounds. But you still can't get a 9th level spell out of a first level spell.