Templates and opposite alignments


Advice


So the group I'm Dming is obsessed with templates and one of them wants to be a lawful good character with the half fiend template, making the character have an internal conflict with WHAT they are vs WHO they are. While this is a very cool idea that I like I have no clue how to balance this, should I let the keep their alignment personality wise but for damage calculation and alignment seeing spell sake say the count as the templates alignment? Some help on the issue would be very much appreciated


There isn't supposed to be a disconnect between the way a character acts and their actual alignment. If your character has an evil alignment but acts in a good way often enough then their alignment should change until it is no longer in conflict with their actions.

However, the acts of using several of the abilities gained from the Half-Fiend Template (such as smite good or desecrate) are evil actions and will push the character's alignment towards evil.

In this case I would say you are never going to get to a good alignment, since fiends/devils are the literal incarnation of Evil in Pathfinder. The best you can really expect is a neutral alignment, and you'll only get that if you never, I mean not even once, use your fiend powers in addition to doing good deeds.

Pathfinder's Alignment system is pretty set in stone: Pure Good can only maintain or fall (all the way), neutral can go either way, and Evil can only maintain or get up to neutral.

That being said you can do anything you want in a home game.


Assuming he is just trying to be a half-fiend human, or a half-fiend elf, etc... and would only have one racial HD that will be traded in for the level 1 Class-granted Hit Die, then the ONLY granted ability he would get from the template that should be off limits is the Smite Good ability. 3/day darkness isn't evil, nor is the Natural Armor boost, the bite attack, the fly speed, darkvision, energy resistance, spell resistance, or ability score modifications.

I agree that the nature of the creature would prevent the character from ever reaching GOOD alignment, but neutral is quite possible. He may do amazingly good things (he could be half angel, for all we know) but the blood that is coursing through him - the blood that is granting him these strong bonuses is intrinsically evil. If the player isn't voluntarily having his character make occasional yet significant slips into Evil, you will need to talk to him and potentially strip him of the template as an achievement (e.g., he has managed to cleanse himself of the evil within).

The biggest thing I would be concerned about is the additional +4 bonus to 3 stats and -4 penalty to 3 stats.... it kinda forces the character to be completely Min-maxed - no?


"How alignment works" is pretty much up to how you want to play it. I don't see a problem with having a literal devil having a crisis of conscience and set out to do good works (might be a long con though, you never know.) Insofar as you are able to think and make decisions, you are able to rebel against your natural impulses (hell "civilization existing" is proof of that.)

But the half-fiend PC doesn't have any more say in who their parents were than anybody else does, so "who mom was" shouldn't influence their thoughts, beliefs, actions any more than the player wants to RP it.

The way I would suggest adjudicating it is whenever your lawful good half-fiend does something borderline, ask them to justify it in character. Getting them to think about their internal justifications and rationalizations of things is going to be a lot more effective in getting them to RP an interesting character than saying "no, no you can't." So I would say "go with it, but remember that your alignment is ultimately about what you can control- what you think and do, so whenever conflicts arise between your nature and your beliefs I want you to think/act that stuff out, don't just use it as a expedient excuse for whatever you want to do right now."


Well after reading into beastiary I found that he would take the penalties both lignments but his weapons would be evil aligned,I was more concerned or not as to ifa template locks you alignment and if a lawgul good charater could even have it but yeah the internal struggle of lignments is what he wants so it l checks out with the rules and with him.
Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).


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Oddman80 wrote:


I agree that the nature of the creature would prevent the character from ever reaching GOOD alignment, but neutral is quite possible.

Personally I find the idea of a character's parentage somehow preventing them from ever possessing a certain alignment to be patently absurd. Characters have free will, they can make their own decisions and dictate their own fate.

and this:

Ridiculon wrote:
Pathfinder's Alignment system is pretty set in stone: Pure Good can only maintain or fall (all the way), neutral can go either way, and Evil can only maintain or get up to neutral.

is entirely untrue. There's no such 'rule' to this effect anywhere in Pathfinder.


Looking at the Half-fiend template on the PRD, it does say that your alignment is Any Evil in order to apply the template, which means RAW, they can't be Lawful Good. This being your table, you can throw that out the window in favor of a good story. However, the spell-like abilities listed include things like desecrate and unholy blight, so I would rule that using those SLAs would be evil actions. The CR adjustment also increases depending on Hit Dice, so I would have him give up 3 levels of his player class to account for it when he reaches the correct level. (e.g. He hits level 5 (5 HD), it takes the equivalent XP to get to Level 7 before he can level up to 6).

There are other options if he wants to explore WHAT he is vs WHO he is. There is the Tiefling race, of course, and then there are the various Sorcerer/Bloodrager bloodlines and Oracle Curses tied to the lower planes that might appeal to him. There is also the Simple Fiendish Template (scrolls down to find it), which gives him some of the abilities he might be looking for without the alignment restriction.

If you're okay with the power of the half-fiend, don't let a bunch of people on the Internet ruin the fun. I would still point out other options to him, and make sure you enforce the CR adjustment.


swoosh wrote:
Oddman80 wrote:


I agree that the nature of the creature would prevent the character from ever reaching GOOD alignment, but neutral is quite possible.

Personally I find the idea of a character's parentage somehow preventing them from ever possessing a certain alignment to be patently absurd. Characters have free will, they can make their own decisions and dictate their own fate.

and this:

Ridiculon wrote:
Pathfinder's Alignment system is pretty set in stone: Pure Good can only maintain or fall (all the way), neutral can go either way, and Evil can only maintain or get up to neutral.
is entirely untrue. There's no such 'rule' to this effect anywhere in Pathfinder.

Its untrue for PC's most of the time, but for Devils and Angels this is how it works. There is a bestiary entry for a Fallen Angel, but no equivalent one for "Risen Devils". Its not supported by the system which is why i said it. I wouldn't have mentioned it if the player wasn't trying to become half devil.

Again, feel free to throw the alignment issues out the window, most tables do.

Grand Lodge

For those saying that he can never have a good alignment as a half-fiend, remember Ragathiel is an empyreal lord who's father is an archdevil.

Having fiendish heritage does not mean you cannot rise above it and become good.


Ridiculon wrote:
Its untrue for PC's most of the time, but for Devils and Angels this is how it works.

Except it isn't.

Quote:
There is a bestiary entry for a Fallen Angel, but no equivalent one for "Risen Devils". Its not supported by the system which is why i said it.

There's a big difference between "there isn't a specific monster in the bestiary" and "this is against the rules of alignment", though. The former is true, the latter is fabrication.

Quote:
Again, feel free to throw the alignment issues out the window, most tables do.

But this isn't an issue that needs to get thrown out the window. Because creatures have free will.


swoosh wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
Its untrue for PC's most of the time, but for Devils and Angels this is how it works.

Except it isn't.

Quote:
There is a bestiary entry for a Fallen Angel, but no equivalent one for "Risen Devils". Its not supported by the system which is why i said it.

There's a big difference between "there isn't a specific monster in the bestiary" and "this is against the rules of alignment", though. The former is true, the latter is fabrication.

Quote:
Again, feel free to throw the alignment issues out the window, most tables do.
But this isn't an issue that needs to get thrown out the window. Because creatures have free will.

So you're saying creatures made from the physical incarnation of Evil can switch alignments whenever they want? with no support from the rules?


Ridiculon wrote:


So you're saying creatures made from the physical incarnation of Evil can switch alignments whenever they want?

I'm saying that creatures with free will can determine their own fate. It's probably very rare, given their intrinsic nature, but not impossible.

Quote:
with no support from the rules?

As much support from the rules as anyone else changing alignment. There's no reason to think there needs to be some special extra rule here.


there have been redeemed succubus paladins they may be evil outsiders by type but they have a lawful good alignment and no you should't try and strip the template off his character after some time.


Ridiculon wrote:
So you're saying creatures made from the physical incarnation of Evil can switch alignments whenever they want? with no support from the rules?

Why not? There's already disconnect between "elemental good/evil" and "good/bad outcomes" anyway, but in practice it's "one follows the other." I mean, if Angels are made up of the physical incarnation of "good" and they can fall, why can't the opposite happen? Devil decides to try to influence people by helping them, discovers the joys inherent in altruism and commits to it more and more without concern for what they're getting in return, is gradually remade on the metaphysical level and becomes a different kind of outsider entirely. If the half-fiend PC had a parent that ended up doing this after the kid was born, why couldn't the PC do it too?

No one's saying you should run mook devils like that, but for an NPC you want to give a story, it's a valid one isn't it?

As for "rules on alignment" I find the less the rules say about *metaphysics* the better.


swoosh wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:


So you're saying creatures made from the physical incarnation of Evil can switch alignments whenever they want?

I'm saying that creatures with free will can determine their own fate. It's probably very rare, given their intrinsic nature, but not impossible.

Quote:
with no support from the rules?
The trouble is that for some reason you think there needs to be a special rule for certain characters to change alignment, which doesn't even make sense.

I'm not saying that normal characters cannot change alignment, I'm talking about Devils and Angels. Creatures who are the literal incarnation of an alignment don't get to change without physically/spiritually becoming a different creature, as is the case with Fallen Angels. That should have an impact on this situation since the character is half Devil. Unless they somehow remove the template Evil is literally half of their physical makeup. Cutting butter with a Greatsword doesn't make it into a butterknife, you will have to melt it down or break it to change it.

If i implied that it was impossible for this character to make the change i apologize, i just meant to say that the normal methods will not work (or at least they wouldn't with my group).


The rules don't say that devils and angels are the physical incarnation of good and evil - the fluff text does.

The rules give outlines for how to change alignment, and the half fiend template doesn't have a specific clause that states they can never change alignment - just that the creature must start with an evil alignment.

If you are looking for story and flavor justification for such a change - there is one in one of the official adventure paths - thus making this kind of change (from demon to good alignment) supported with in game lore - although it's meant to be incredibly rare.

AP story:

Spoiler:

In Wrath of the Righteous - you meat a succubus who is chaotic neutral when met and you can help her redeem herself into a chaotic good creature of desna.

If a demon (made of pure chaotic evil) can change it's stripes - then a half fiend should be possible as well.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:
So you're saying creatures made from the physical incarnation of Evil can switch alignments whenever they want? with no support from the rules?
Why not? There's already disconnect between "elemental good/evil" and "good/bad outcomes" anyway, but in practice it's "one follows the other." I mean, if Angels are made up of the physical incarnation of "good" and they can fall, why can't the opposite happen? Devil decides to try to influence people by helping them, discovers the joys inherent in altruism and commits to it more and more without concern for what they're getting in return, is gradually remade on the metaphysical level and becomes a different kind of outsider entirely. If the half-fiend PC had a parent that ended up doing this after the kid was born, why couldn't the PC do it too?

I'm not saying it's impossible for a Devil to change, I was just pointing to the information we've got. There is no template or bestiary entry for a Risen Devil (despite there being a Fallen Angel) which means either that its so uncommon that every example of it is 100% unique, or that its not a thing that happens.


swoosh wrote:
Personally I find the idea of a character's parentage somehow preventing them from ever possessing a certain alignment to be patently absurd. Characters have free will, they can make their own decisions and dictate their own fate.

But you are basing this opinion on a system that was designed around the core humanoid races. Can ANY Creature change its nature in pathfinder? If so, a paladin better stop and question every single undead he comes across, and find out each one's true nature before raising a sword. As you say - some of them may be good. Some may just be having trouble getting out of the gang of raised evil creatures surrounding them. Its hard to stand up to the powerful necromancer...

This is a player who wants to step outside of the rules and play a monster that is - by the rules EVIL. Another poster tossed in the name Ragathiel as evidence that it was possible for a Half-Fiend to be good. Honestly, the example almost further proves the point. Ragathiel's personal story is in and of itself enough to fill a campaign from levels 1 through 20 plus 10 mythic tiers, that spans many many centuries, ending with him being accepted into the pantheon of Angels and being viewed as a God. And even after all of that he still has to deal with his "tainted heritage" that "has left him with a wrathful heart, and...struggles constantly to master his baser impulses in service to the light."

This player wants to be what? a level 1 PC? Maybe a little higher... but likely below level 10. Regardless - he is not Centuries Deep into his journey, so he is likely still going to be having a b*tch of a time with that evil tainted blood running through his veins.


a half fiend is simply a more powerful teifling..... teiflings don't have to be evil


Simplest is just to use a Tiefling. There's even an included sidebar for non-human tieflings (halfling, dwarf, whatever). That gets you "fiendish ancestry" while keeping it simple. Half-fiend is worth way more than +1 CR/LA on a player (the bite/claw/claw and Ex flight make it a somewhat no brainer for melee, the +4 three stats and +2 the rest is like a slightly less powerful Advanced template, itself brokenly overpowered for +1 CR).

As others have beaten around several bushes with, Half-Fiends must start evil. Requirements of the template. Like anything else with free will, they can change their alignment with enough time. The issue, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that alignment is not a compulsion. A creature has a specific alignment because it wants to act that way. Half-fiends aren't suddenly forced to be evil, they just are, think it's normal, and don't have any problems with it. By the time a Half-Fiend character has made it to Lawful Good they think Good is normal, natural, and want to do more of it. There's no "fighting their nature". They had to change their nature to get where they are, the only thing they're fighting is the temptation to backslide into Evil.

If your player actually wants to portray some kind of good vs evil internal struggle, I recommend Intelligent items. Make a LE ring that wants to rule over everyone. Pick their sin. Either way, an Evil intelligent item is a great way to offer power at a price (and can try to just take them over, if it wants to). "I'm half-devil, but I'm Good now" isn't a struggle. It's the end of the story.


i disagree half fiend and half celetials are on par with most cr 1 templates the exceptions probably being simple advanced and simple giant if the player wants to have a level adjustment of 1 for using said template instead of just going teifling that's on their prerogative so long as the dm is ok with it they shouldn't be bound to alignment restrictions as they are super dumb anyway

Silver Crusade

Tiefling does seem the easiest solution, and whether by luck or design, works perfectly for a Paladin.

Demon spawn Tiefling get +2 Str and Cha which is ideal. Take Abyssal Eldritch heritage. The Paladin has the Cha for it, the bonuses are perfect (+6 Str, good at know: Planes) and it really emphasises that for reasons beyond the Paladin's control, he is half-demon.

You can play up the physical aspects too, make it clear the holy knight is a fiend. Prehensile Tail is a swap for something the Paladin doesn't need, and he can take cloven hooves too, improving his charge speed for some skill points. Or vestigial wings. And he can get claws as a swap for the SLA.


the player wants to have a template though so teifling may seem like the easy solution but its never actually that simple


From the alignment section of the CRB:

"Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a super-villain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character's evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity."

Which shows that devils and the like can become good, just that they generally don't want to.

As well as this:

"Alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity—it is not a straitjacket for restricting your character."

Something else to remember is that, by the rules, becoming a Lich is automatically evil, even though in the description of the Lich states that many who become Liches do so to study magic for longer than what their lifespan would normally allow. Now, it does also say in the rules (can't quite remember where, I'd have to look) that you may choose to have Necromancy be a more revered and sacred practice than an evil one. Just look at the spell Mark of Justice.


Lady-J, at low-levels, yes, the half-fiend template is only a +1 CR, but the half-fiend template increases to CR +3 once you hit 10 HD. If this game goes to higher levels, it gets significantly powerful, and spell-like abilities like desecrate and unholy blight are not abilities I would expect to be used by good characters.

That's why I suggested he use the Fiendish simple template. It's a CR+1 adjustment at 5 HD, and gives darkvision, spell resistance, fire and cold resistance, and DR/good. Plus, it doesn't have the alignment requirement of the half-fiend template. The only ability it gives that I would expect a good aligned player to avoid using is smite good. I think it gives the player exactly what he's looking for.

If the player insists on the half-fiend template, I would have them start the campaign Lawful Evil and then one of the major themes would be the player working their way to Lawful Good by performing good deeds to show they are working their way to overcoming their nature. The would also have to lose three levels over time to reflect the full cost of the template.


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I think that you should just let them have whatever alignment they want. While it does say half-fiends are evil, nothing says they have to stay evil. I have always thought that intelligent undead, being sentient creatures, could change their viewpoints, and become good. There's nothing that says their alignment is locked, just that it's changed, and alignment can always change back. While full fiends are literally made of evil, there have been some examples of fiends that become good. While those are incredibly rare, it's still possible, and therefore it should be much easier for those that are only half-fiend. Tieflings, which are really a quarter-fiend (or less) can be good, and in incredibly rare cases fiends can be good. The halfway point would be that it is uncommon, or rare, but not completely unheard of. And even if they are born evil, they can always redeem themselves.


Phntm888 wrote:

Lady-J, at low-levels, yes, the half-fiend template is only a +1 CR, but the half-fiend template increases to CR +3 once you hit 10 HD. If this game goes to higher levels, it gets significantly powerful, and spell-like abilities like desecrate and unholy blight are not abilities I would expect to be used by good characters.

That's why I suggested he use the Fiendish simple template. It's a CR+1 adjustment at 5 HD, and gives darkvision, spell resistance, fire and cold resistance, and DR/good. Plus, it doesn't have the alignment requirement of the half-fiend template. The only ability it gives that I would expect a good aligned player to avoid using is smite good. I think it gives the player exactly what he's looking for.

If the player insists on the half-fiend template, I would have them start the campaign Lawful Evil and then one of the major themes would be the player working their way to Lawful Good by performing good deeds to show they are working their way to overcoming their nature. The would also have to lose three levels over time to reflect the full cost of the template.

only if the dm allows it to do so i for one would have it be a cr+ template based on the level you were when you got the template and not have the template progress if you gained more hit die as the player would not be able to pay for the level adjustment while they are leveling and can only do so during character creation this means if he got the template when he only had lets say 4 hit die he would only get up to desecrate sla and only dr5/magic


Hence why the way I said I'd handle it is making their transition part of the campaign. I would only do this with an experienced player I could trust, but it would make for an excellent story. If they were starting in the mid-high levels, then I would allow them to start with the alignment shift, but it would take a pretty good backstory to let me give them that at level 1.

That's just how I would handle it at my table, though, and I'd still suggest the Fiendish simple template as an alternative. One of the great things about a situation like this is there is no right or wrong way to handle it. It's whatever works for the group that's important.


Lady-J wrote:
Phntm888 wrote:

Lady-J, at low-levels, yes, the half-fiend template is only a +1 CR, but the half-fiend template increases to CR +3 once you hit 10 HD. If this game goes to higher levels, it gets significantly powerful, and spell-like abilities like desecrate and unholy blight are not abilities I would expect to be used by good characters.

That's why I suggested he use the Fiendish simple template. It's a CR+1 adjustment at 5 HD, and gives darkvision, spell resistance, fire and cold resistance, and DR/good. Plus, it doesn't have the alignment requirement of the half-fiend template. The only ability it gives that I would expect a good aligned player to avoid using is smite good. I think it gives the player exactly what he's looking for.
....

only if the dm allows it to do so i for one would have it be a cr+ template based on the level you were when you got the template and not have the template progress if you gained more hit die as the player would not be able to pay for the level adjustment while they are leveling and can only do so during character creation this means if he got the template when he only had lets say 4 hit die he would only get up to desecrate sla and only dr5/magic

Ah, see, I would allow it to do so by means of "Okay, once you hit level 5, it takes until you have enough XP to get to Level 7 before you can reach level 6." Same thing once they hit level 10. Especially since you get the "+4 to three ability scores and +2 to the other three" right off the bat, no hit die limit at all. The Lycanthrope template, also CR +1, gives +2 Wis, -2 Cha in all forms, and +2 Str, +2 Con in beast form.

Those ability score boosts give a lot of advantage for a +1 CR template, in addition to dark vision, DR 5/magic, acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10, spell resistance equal to 11 + CR, type change to outsider (native), fly speed equal to twice the base creature's land speed (good maneuverability), and a natural armor bonus and natural attacks (2 claws and a bite).

Unless the other players take a template just as powerful, I would definitely require the extra levels to be paid, if only to balance the party.


we run it so that if you take a template you lose out on class levels equal to the cr of the template so if you were to take a cr +2 template in a group that is level 6 you would be level 4(it would need the same exp to go from 4 to 5 as it would them to go 6 to 7 but we do milestones and only level up when the dm says) you are also missing out on some of the things lycanthropy gives you by just saying oh its only a +2 wis -2 cha and +2 str and con when transformed. lycanthropes also use the better of the 2 scores when transformed and gains all the special abilities of said creature as well which means its one of the best ways to get pounce and there's no downside to just staying in hybrid form all day so say you got a lycanthrope wizard who normally has a 7 str with a dex and con of 12 for some reason, the creature they choose lets say has a 25 str, 18 dex and a 23 con his str would then be 27 his dex would be 18 and his con would be 25 which is a lot more stat increases than the increases you've said they also get dr10/silver and all natural attacks the creature they chose had plus spell resistance is more of a curse for players than a boon you all are highly overvaluing the effectiveness of the half fiend template


Phntm888 wrote:
Lady-J, at low-levels, yes, the half-fiend template is only a +1 CR, but the half-fiend template increases to CR +3 once you hit 10 HD. If this game goes to higher levels, it gets significantly powerful, and spell-like abilities like desecrate and unholy blight are not abilities I would expect to be used by good characters.

I am pretty sure the chart for HD is based on racial HD, and is not intended to scale as characters gain level-based HD.

Becoming a better archer doesn't make you MORE FIENDISHLY MONSTROUS!
But a Half-Fiend Kraken is likely going to have more Fiendish Traits than a Half-Fiend Blink Dog


There are published human with class levels half fiends, though, who work exactly as you'd expect. One of the BBEGs in Wrath of the Righteous is the first that comes to mind. Hell's Rebels has a half succubus.

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