The cleric is LN. Would freeing their slave make them fall? Would it matter why they did it? Care about her vs. can't afford the upkeep or something else. Would not be going on anti-slavery crusade, just giving freedom to one person. What else would be considered a reason for losing cleric powers from Asmo?
Is it legal to free slaves? It probably just takes lots of paperwork and some gold.
Paladins probably do it all the time in countries allowing slavery. That and pursuing their release in other legal ways.
It's not about the legal aspect. It's more about Asmo being LE the god of slavery and tyranny.
If they are your slave, then sure, go ahead. But I think a proper cleric of Asmodeus would only do it if their is an advantage to be gained.
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It's legal and all, but it certainly would not please Asmodeus either... basically, the cleric would be able to plead that he was technically within his rights, but would still be noted down on the drek list, never get to be high priest, and the hierarchy (earthly AND supernatural) looking for an excuse to cast him out or otherwise cause him trouble... I'd expect Inquisitors to seriously get on his case.
He better start making overtures to the clergy of Abadar or some other compatible deity and change allegiances, because as far as being a cleric of Asmodeus, his career is already toast, and his powers are waiting to follow the same way.
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In other words, it may be better to kill your slave than to actively free them. At least then there's less paperwork and inconvenient questions...
In other words, it may be better to kill your slave than to actively free them. At least then there's less paperwork and inconvenient questions...
In more words... I'm screwed :P Thanks!
Klorox's post was very helpful :)
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It's not about the legal aspect. It's more about Asmo being LE the god of slavery and tyranny.Is it legal to free slaves? It probably just takes lots of paperwork and some gold.
Paladins probably do it all the time in countries allowing slavery. That and pursuing their release in other legal ways.
That seems like a narrow and simplistic way to run with it. Everything benefits the god of contracts. Read all the fine print before deciding to sign anything.
It's legal and all, but it certainly would not please Asmodeus either...
That's a novel use of the word "certainly," to be sure.
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That seems like a narrow and simplistic way to run with it. Everything benefits the god of contracts.It's not about the legal aspect. It's more about Asmo being LE the god of slavery and tyranny.Is it legal to free slaves? It probably just takes lots of paperwork and some gold.
Paladins probably do it all the time in countries allowing slavery. That and pursuing their release in other legal ways.
I think that's a much better way to analyze it. What are you, the slaveowner, getting out of a decision to free your slave? Asmodeus is all about following rules to the letter, and making sure that by doing so, he comes out ahead. Take slaves when you can benefit from such an act, keep slaves when you can benefit from such an act, free slaves when you can benefit from such an act.... do whatever the rules permit that gives you the greatest benefit.
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As others have said, the motivation is key. In the end, the motivation must be perfectly compatible with the ideology that slavery is not only acceptable, but the natural orders of things. If the slave is freed because he is too expensive, then that does not in any way put into question slavery itself, it just reflects poorly on the master for not being able to work his slave hard enough for him to be profitable. If the slave is freed as a reward for some outstanding task, for example willingly taking a blow to save his master from certain death, then I do not think this is incompatible with the belief in the righteousness of slavery.
But freeing the slave should not be the act, the causal factor, and the target result all in one. In other words, freeing the slave, for no other reason than the fact that he was a slave, and that you want nothing else than for him to be a non-slave, would not be compatible with the teachings of Asmodeus, in my book.
Though it must be noted that clerics are allowed to stray some from the core teachings, just not grossly so. Just like a cleric doesn't have to share exactly the deity's alignment. Just has to be generally compatible.
My last cleric was a hobgoblin priest of Abadar, a royal that had been cast out from the main hobgoblin empire in a putsch because his father was deemed "too moderate". His goal was to return to his homeland, depose his uncle (who led the putsch), and convert his kin away from Asmodeus (though they were mostly unaffiliated) and to the church of Abadar (preferably creating a church-led theocracy). At one point, our stance on slavery had to be qualified, and my character (LN) stated that he opposed slavery in principle, because it was an inefficient form of labor management and contrary to an individual's right to self-fulfillment through labor, but also opposed any form of emancipation that did not result from lawful mechanisms and managed in an orderly way, for he recognized slavery's contribution to stability and social well-being, especially in his home nation where slavery was rampant.
A LN cleric of Amsodeus could probably have a similar stance, albeit with different motivations. Maybe he opposes slavery, because wage labor is simply a more effective means of oppression (with a large enough mass of poor unemployed laborers, you can pay them wages inferior to what you had to pay to maintain your slaves!), thus enforcing a system where the poor get poorer and the strong and wealthy get stronger and wealthier. This is perfectly in line with Asmodeus' dogma. Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.
Though to be honest, I find the PF Asmodeus to be contradictory on a number of aspects. In the end, the player and the GM should probably discuss the issue before making anything out of it.
Hmmm... I've got a feeling that to a god of Tyranny, outright freeing of slaves would be akin to defiling the holy host in christianity... A suitable reward for outstanding service would be to let the slave buy back his freedom, or letting him work to get money on the side to that end if he was previously not allowed to own personal funds. And make sur the freedman remains in your obligation, Roman style.
Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.
But in this case the more "acceptable" solution would be to sell them and buy someone else, which he wouldn't do since he cares. And just freeing her would mess with his ambitions which he cares about even more.
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I guess it all boils down as to how well you wrote up the contract that you made your slave sign before you freed him or her.
You did force the slave to sign a contract, right?
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Yeah, I have bigger things to worry about, it's your slave, do whatever.
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A Lawful Neutral cleric is already skirting the edges of Asmodean tenets by not being evil. This something that anyone playing a cleric should keep in mind... if you're worshiping under the one-step difference rule, it means you're skirting the edge of what's acceptable to start with.
Freeing a slave is only acceptable if done under terms favorable to the the promulgation of Asmodean tenets. If the slave was freed out of friendship or gratitude, the cleric has some atonement due.
An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.
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Hmmm... I've got a feeling that to a god of Tyranny, outright freeing of slaves would be akin to defiling the holy host in christianity.
Only if the God of Tyranny is also a God of Idiots. Remember that Asmodeus is also a god of lies and deception. Freeing a slave from time to time is a good idea if it helps stave off slave revolts (because the slaves feel, rightly or wrongly, that they can get relief from their status just by keeping their heads down, doing their jobs, and pleasing their master in hopes of reward).
I've noticed a strong tendency among Pathfinder players to see good and evil as fundamentally symmetric -- for a good person to do evil makes them less good (and more evil), therefore for an evil person to do good makes them somehow less evil. This is pretty obviously a false symmetry as all real-world churches have known, in some cases literally for millennia.
The Catholics, for example, are very clear about sins of "thought, word, and deed," and they are clearly independent -- to commit a good act for a an evil purpose is a sin of thought, while to commit an evil act for a good purpose is still a sin of deed. Satan, in particular (upon whom Asmodeus is based) is very good about playing the long game and persuading people to do evil while seeming to do good. (Cf. Jesus' temptation in the desert.)
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I guess it all boils down as to how well you wrote up the contract that you made your slave sign before you freed him or her.
You did force the slave to sign a contract, right?
Umm... no. But I love the idea, and I think so will the DM! May I ask if you have any suggestions? Keeping in mind, he's quite young and he does care... just not as much as he cares about himself.
His general attitude is "Slavery makes things run smoothly. You know what happens to teenagers on the streets in those other barbaric countries? You're lucky you have me to take care of you. Here's 1sp a week. Go buy yourself something. I'm that nice." Basically, manipulating her so she's loyal and he can sleep safe. She'd probably trust him and sign anything without being forced.
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Perhaps you can think of freeing the slave as a sort of promotion. If they're worthy of a higher position than being a slave, release them and instead hire them via meticulously designed contract and small wages as an incentive to continue to serve you and to serve you better. Clear bureaucratic management and manipulation in your benefit, and if you're on friendly terms with the person, then that's just a bonus because you don't have to put up with someone you hate.
A LN cleric of Amsodeus could probably have a similar stance, albeit with different motivations. Maybe he opposes slavery, because wage labor is simply a more effective means of oppression
I think this is on the right track, though I don't think a follower of Asmodeus would entirely oppose slavery: treat it as the very bottom level of the "corporate ladder."
Here's 1sp a week. Go buy yourself something. I'm that nice.
So your slave isn't a slave, then. You're paying them, so they are your employee. No dilemma.
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One contract that would keep you in Asmodeus's good graces would be one where the ex-slave pledges his soul to Asmodeus in return for his freedom. I would imagine that contracts like this are fairly popular in Cheliax -- especially if they don't get their souls back in the event that they screw up and get re-enslaved by somebody else.
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An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.Which is sort of funny given that Asomdeus is an embodiment of lawful evil and trustworthiness, honor and reliability are core tenants of the lawful alignment.
But given his strongly NE tendencies just emphasizes how hard it is to skirt along as an LN follower.
Please explain where trustworthiness and honor come into play for Lawful Evil, as opposed to iron-clad adherence.
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One contract that would keep you in Asmodeus's good graces would be one where the ex-slave pledges his soul to Asmodeus in return for his freedom. I would imagine that contracts like this are fairly popular in Cheliax -- especially if they don't get their souls back in the event that they screw up and get re-enslaved by somebody else.
That's nice, but probably too much for the guy, he is not evil. Just selfish and ambitious. As Drahliana Moonrunner wrote he "is already skirting the edges of Asmodean tenets by not being evil."
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Please explain where trustworthiness and honor come into play for Lawful Evil, as opposed to iron-clad adherence.An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.Which is sort of funny given that Asomdeus is an embodiment of lawful evil and trustworthiness, honor and reliability are core tenants of the lawful alignment.
But given his strongly NE tendencies just emphasizes how hard it is to skirt along as an LN follower.
Honour among thieves? Depends how broadly you define honour. But personally I have always been of the opinion that signing anything with an Asmodean follower is gonna get you screwed, given that they did it "right". Trustworthiness? Definitely not... but it will be there in the contract... somewhere...
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Please explain where trustworthiness and honor come into play for Lawful Evil, as opposed to iron-clad adherence.An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.Which is sort of funny given that Asomdeus is an embodiment of lawful evil and trustworthiness, honor and reliability are core tenants of the lawful alignment.
But given his strongly NE tendencies just emphasizes how hard it is to skirt along as an LN follower.
From the PRD: "Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability." Unless you're suggesting that lawful evil is somehow not lawful, it's literally right in the source documents.
That said, "trustworthy" merely means "dependable," not necessarily "nice." Similarly, "honor" doesn't imply kindness or gentleness (hence "honor among thieves").
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Please explain where trustworthiness and honor come into play for Lawful Evil, as opposed to iron-clad adherence.An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.Which is sort of funny given that Asomdeus is an embodiment of lawful evil and trustworthiness, honor and reliability are core tenants of the lawful alignment.
But given his strongly NE tendencies just emphasizes how hard it is to skirt along as an LN follower.
Highly evil characters can simultaneously be highly honorable. There's no contradiction there. The caricature of the "Black Knight" is predicated upon this being so. See also basically every samurai villain, ever.
Highly evil characters can simultaneously be highly honorable. There's no contradiction there. The caricature of the "Black Knight" is predicated upon this being so. See also basically every samurai villain, ever.Please explain where trustworthiness and honor come into play for Lawful Evil, as opposed to iron-clad adherence.An important thing about Asmodean contracts... The cleric and/or devil who's putting up the contract is only doing their job if the contract ultimately winds up to the detriment of the signer. Fairness is a sign of inept negotiation.Which is sort of funny given that Asomdeus is an embodiment of lawful evil and trustworthiness, honor and reliability are core tenants of the lawful alignment.
But given his strongly NE tendencies just emphasizes how hard it is to skirt along as an LN follower.
We're talking about the Big A, the one whose specialty is getting people to damm themselves by contract. Or have you not watched appropriate episodes of Twilight Zone or bothered to read his entry in Inner Sea Gods?
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You forgot to put the cover on the TPS reports.
NOOooOOOOOooooo
You have fallen....
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Perhaps you can think of freeing the slave as a sort of promotion. If they're worthy of a higher position than being a slave, release them and instead hire them via meticulously designed contract and small wages as an incentive to continue to serve you and to serve you better. Clear bureaucratic management and manipulation in your benefit, and if you're on friendly terms with the person, then that's just a bonus because you don't have to put up with someone you hate.
A LN cleric of Amsodeus could probably have a similar stance, albeit with different motivations. Maybe he opposes slavery, because wage labor is simply a more effective means of oppressionI think this is on the right track, though I don't think a follower of Asmodeus would entirely oppose slavery: treat it as the very bottom level of the "corporate ladder."
Here's 1sp a week. Go buy yourself something. I'm that nice.So your slave isn't a slave, then. You're paying them, so they are your employee. No dilemma.
A slave isn't "de slaved" by the fact you're giving him an allowance, he's still not free to leave you.
But if he hoards his allowance he might one day be able to buy himself free.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps you can think of freeing the slave as a sort of promotion. If they're worthy of a higher position than being a slave, release them and instead hire them via meticulously designed contract and small wages as an incentive to continue to serve you and to serve you better. Clear bureaucratic management and manipulation in your benefit, and if you're on friendly terms with the person, then that's just a bonus because you don't have to put up with someone you hate.
A LN cleric of Amsodeus could probably have a similar stance, albeit with different motivations. Maybe he opposes slavery, because wage labor is simply a more effective means of oppressionI think this is on the right track, though I don't think a follower of Asmodeus would entirely oppose slavery: treat it as the very bottom level of the "corporate ladder."
Here's 1sp a week. Go buy yourself something. I'm that nice.So your slave isn't a slave, then. You're paying them, so they are your employee. No dilemma.A slave isn't "de slaved" by the fact you're giving him an allowance, he's still not free to leave you.
But if he hoards his allowance he might one day be able to buy himself free.
He bought her, he's giving her an allowance because he feels like it, as long as he feels like it, while you are obligated to pay an employee and they can just leave if they're not happy.
If she hoards it... maybe in 15 years going by the prices I've found. And I'm assuming you're not obligated to free anyone whether they can afford to buy their freedom or not (straying off topic here).
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hey, if it does not impair her job with her master, she might even go into business and invest her allowance to make profits, will hasten her ability to buy her freedom (if Master will let her).
BTW (and staying off topic) where di you find slave prices?
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In other words, it may be better to kill your slave than to actively free them. At least then there's less paperwork and inconvenient questions...
Is there? less paperwork? I mean, I wouldn't put it past an Asmodeus worshiper to write off the value of the slave when he prepares his next income tax statement...
"A write-off is a reduction of the recognized value of something. In accounting, this is a recognition of the reduced or zero value of an asset. In income tax statements, this is a reduction of taxable income, as a recognition of certain expenses required to produce the income."
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hey, if it does not impair her job with her master, she might even go into business and invest her allowance to make profits, will hasten her ability to buy her freedom (if Master will let her).
BTW (and staying off topic) where di you find slave prices?
Here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p0ou?Slave-stats-and-pricing
Introduced in Adventurer's Armory, was a pricing for slaves.
It as follows:
Slave, common 75 gp
Slave, hard labor 100 gp
Slave, household 50 gp
Slave, slip (halfling) 100 gp
Slave, specialized 500 gp
Spend 75gp of my starter, with DM approval. Just carries his bag basically, no combat.
In other words, it may be better to kill your slave than to actively free them. At least then there's less paperwork and inconvenient questions...Is there? less paperwork? I mean, I wouldn't put it past an Asmodeus worshiper to write off the value of the slave when he prepares his next income tax statement...
"A write-off is a reduction of the recognized value of something. In accounting, this is a recognition of the reduced or zero value of an asset. In income tax statements, this is a reduction of taxable income, as a recognition of certain expenses required to produce the income."
Bureaucracy is so much fun... in games :P
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Is this the more acceptable solution, though? Say I am an evil cleric, who has grown fond of someone who is a slave of mine. They return my feelings, and I free them. What's the most likely outcome? They continue to follow me, knowing I'm a nice guy (or at least nicer than most people think) and I've planted the seed of corruption, they follow me around, learn from what I do, start rationalizing some of my behavior based on knowing I'm a "good person", and so sign up for Asmodeus as well. As others have said, it's a promotion, showing the masses the hope that ensures they will stay in the mud, praying (to Asmodeus :) ) for mercy, and a chance.Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.But in this case the more "acceptable" solution would be to sell them and buy someone else, which he wouldn't do since he cares. And just freeing her would mess with his ambitions which he cares about even more.
I like that!
Edit: So maybe possible to go from slave to "apprentice"... that's an interesting idea.
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Is this the more acceptable solution, though? Say I am an evil cleric, who has grown fond of someone who is a slave of mine. They return my feelings, and I free them. What's the most likely outcome? They continue to follow me, knowing I'm a nice guy (or at least nicer than most people think) and I've planted the seed of corruption, they follow me around, learn from what I do, start rationalizing some of my behavior based on knowing I'm a "good person", and so sign up for Asmodeus as well. As others have said, it's a promotion, showing the masses the hope that ensures they will stay in the mud, praying (to Asmodeus :) ) for mercy, and a chance.Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.But in this case the more "acceptable" solution would be to sell them and buy someone else, which he wouldn't do since he cares. And just freeing her would mess with his ambitions which he cares about even more.I like that!
Edit: So maybe possible to go from slave to "apprentice"... that's an interesting idea.
Sounds like the perfect setup for later taking Leadership and choosing the slave as your cohort.
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Sounds like the perfect setup for later taking Leadership and choosing the slave as your cohort.Is this the more acceptable solution, though? Say I am an evil cleric, who has grown fond of someone who is a slave of mine. They return my feelings, and I free them. What's the most likely outcome? They continue to follow me, knowing I'm a nice guy (or at least nicer than most people think) and I've planted the seed of corruption, they follow me around, learn from what I do, start rationalizing some of my behavior based on knowing I'm a "good person", and so sign up for Asmodeus as well. As others have said, it's a promotion, showing the masses the hope that ensures they will stay in the mud, praying (to Asmodeus :) ) for mercy, and a chance.Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.But in this case the more "acceptable" solution would be to sell them and buy someone else, which he wouldn't do since he cares. And just freeing her would mess with his ambitions which he cares about even more.I like that!
Edit: So maybe possible to go from slave to "apprentice"... that's an interesting idea.
Exactly. Get your Sith on.
Exactly. Get your Sith on.Sounds like the perfect setup for later taking Leadership and choosing the slave as your cohort.Is this the more acceptable solution, though? Say I am an evil cleric, who has grown fond of someone who is a slave of mine. They return my feelings, and I free them. What's the most likely outcome? They continue to follow me, knowing I'm a nice guy (or at least nicer than most people think) and I've planted the seed of corruption, they follow me around, learn from what I do, start rationalizing some of my behavior based on knowing I'm a "good person", and so sign up for Asmodeus as well. As others have said, it's a promotion, showing the masses the hope that ensures they will stay in the mud, praying (to Asmodeus :) ) for mercy, and a chance.Maybe he finds himself to care too much for that particular slave, and considers this a weakness, thus frees the slave in order to be able to acquire another to more properly exploit.But in this case the more "acceptable" solution would be to sell them and buy someone else, which he wouldn't do since he cares. And just freeing her would mess with his ambitions which he cares about even more.I like that!
Edit: So maybe possible to go from slave to "apprentice"... that's an interesting idea.
Well, thanks for the help everyone! I think that's probably the way I'll go. Reason: Cares. Rationalization: She's more useful as an apprentice. Set her free with a contract -not a horrid one though.
Unless something dramatic happens and he gets to wave goodbye to his friends and dreams of wealth and power in Chelliax and goes grovelling to the local temple of Abadar.
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Highly evil characters can simultaneously be highly honorable. There's no contradiction there. The caricature of the "Black Knight" is predicated upon this being so. See also basically every samurai villain, ever.We're talking about the Big A, the one whose specialty is getting people to damm themselves by contract. Or have you not watched appropriate episodes of Twilight Zone or bothered to read his entry in Inner Sea Gods?
Big A always holds up his end of the bargain.
He also just always gets more out of it than you do, even if you don't realize you should value what he's getting.
Big A's attitude also changes a bit if you're a peer instead of a mortal. Mortals are barely people to him, but demigods and gods? They actually get some respect, and he acts accordingly.
I.e., Asmodeus treats players very differently from how he treats playing pieces.
Asmodeus probably frowns on releasing a slave just for the sake of releasing him or her (heck, Asmodeus's divine obedience calls for cutting up a slave or prisoner, to give you an idea of what a tool he is), but as an LN cleric you're already a heretic anyways. And in Pathfinder, the gods still accept their heretics (as long as they don't go too far).
As discussed above, taking other measures to secure the ex-slave's loyalty/service should ameliorate your "sin."
Asmodeus is a cruel god, but also a pragmatic one. (See Zon-Kuthon for an example of a cruel and not pragmatic god.)
Now, your cleric's afterlife might be pretty murky, because as a LN person you really don't fit in with Hell, but if you're really sincere for Asmodeus (and he's granting spells, so you probably are), you might get to go there anyways.
Hopefully you'll fare better than "intelligent brick."
a more important question would be why are you trying so hard to make the cleric fall in the first place?
Psst, OP is the Cleric.
a more important question would be why are you trying so hard to make the cleric fall in the first place?
I'm not actually. I prefer he sticks to Asmo.
Just an update if anyone finds it of interest in the same situation. After having a chat with GM (just to make sure he allowed leadership) I'm taking leadership, making her my cohort (witchguard), then when I get followers (with a sad 10 cha it'll take a while) freeing her so she can act as my steward.
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Freeing a slave is not going to make a cleric of Asmodeus fall. Slaves are tools to be used for your benefit. When keeping the person a slave is no longer useful, and freeing them may actually be more useful than that is what a follower of Asmodeus will do. Giving someone their freedom is often a very good way to earn their loyalty, and a loyal follower is worth a lot more than a unwilling slave.
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it still won't be looked on well by the hierarchy, but then the hierarchy is not as wise as Asmodeus...
it still won't be looked on well by the hierarchy, but then the hierarchy is not as wise as Asmodeus...
What the hierarchy doesn't know won't hurt me... yet :P Hierarchy, pcs and npcs think he got her a bracelet he could barely afford -and then didn't have enough for his own darn equipment- cause she's his mistress and the misconception suits him fine. Asmodeus knows he just got it for her cause she was having a bad day and he wanted to cheer her up... but as long as Asmodeus doesn't throw a firebolt on him during the campaign I'm fine =)
Edit: Basically, after thinking about it, I don't see that Asmo would care at all if his cleric has a soft spot (other than the slave he's not running around to save kittens), as long as he's doing things by the book and serving his purposes.