Grossly violating god's teachings for Cleric of Asmodeus?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Why would the Cleric even consider freeing his slave ?

Being a slave is not deemed an unacceptable fate under Asmodeus' teachings

What does the slave gain from being freed that Asmodeus would value in his LE vision ?

Same for the Cleric


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Worth noting that Rome, which ran the largest and longest-lived slave society in history so far, relatively frequently manumitted slaves, a practice which did not destabilize the slave system and in fact likely helped to stabilize and perpetuate it. Because of its appeal as a positive incentive inspiring hope (and incentivizing cooperation) in all slaves, manumission can definitely be used to uphold the social order rather than weaken it. By manumitting the few, you tighten your grip on the many.

As a side/flavor note, I will say that in the polytheistic past, the process of manumission sometimes involved a legal fiction in which the slave was nominally "sold" to a deity, thus passing outside mortal mastery. Apollo at Delphi was a frequent receiver of such contracts in the Greek world. No reason that Asmodean manumission couldn't involve a similar legal device to remove the functional aspect of slavery without seeming to assail the ideology behind it. In fact it seems to fit well with his role as god of both slavery and contracts.


The Raven Black wrote:

Why would the Cleric even consider freeing his slave ?

Being a slave is not deemed an unacceptable fate under Asmodeus' teachings

What does the slave gain from being freed that Asmodeus would value in his LE vision ?

Same for the Cleric

As I understand,

a) as a reward for services rendered
b) on consideration that a loyal minion serving freely is better than a slave who might stab you in the back out of spite...
Asmo doesn't gain a thing on the E plane, but the cleric gains a lot on the L level, and Asmodeus can value that by unshackling the slave, the cleric has actually asserted greater dominance over him.


Klorox wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Why would the Cleric even consider freeing his slave ?

Being a slave is not deemed an unacceptable fate under Asmodeus' teachings

What does the slave gain from being freed that Asmodeus would value in his LE vision ?

Same for the Cleric

As I understand,

a) as a reward for services rendered
b) on consideration that a loyal minion serving freely is better than a slave who might stab you in the back out of spite...
Asmo doesn't gain a thing on the E plane, but the cleric gains a lot on the L level, and Asmodeus can value that by unshackling the slave, the cleric has actually asserted greater dominance over him.

Exactly that. When creating the character I told the DM I wanted a slave. He said "You're leaving Cheliax, slavery might be illegal elsewhere, she might rat you out, stab you in your sleep etc." So I made sure she really likes the cleric (and she's LG to avoid that stab-in-sleep), he frees her -for whatever reasons- he can trust her with his life, and that's hard to find.

Liberty's Edge

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Also Asmodeus understands the value of propaganda. Doing good things in his name is a plus to him.


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Alni wrote:
Klorox wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Why would the Cleric even consider freeing his slave ?

Being a slave is not deemed an unacceptable fate under Asmodeus' teachings

What does the slave gain from being freed that Asmodeus would value in his LE vision ?

Same for the Cleric

As I understand,

a) as a reward for services rendered
b) on consideration that a loyal minion serving freely is better than a slave who might stab you in the back out of spite...
Asmo doesn't gain a thing on the E plane, but the cleric gains a lot on the L level, and Asmodeus can value that by unshackling the slave, the cleric has actually asserted greater dominance over him.
Exactly that. When creating the character I told the DM I wanted a slave. He said "You're leaving Cheliax, slavery might be illegal elsewhere, she might rat you out, stab you in your sleep etc." So I made sure she really likes the cleric (and she's LG to avoid that stab-in-sleep), he frees her -for whatever reasons- he can trust her with his life, and that's hard to find.

As I see it you're getting a more loyal follower by freeing your slave and also making sure you don't get in trouble with local authorities outside Cheliax, so in the selfish way of thinking I don't think you should have any trouble with your god even if you did it for more selfless reasons.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

imho, unless the slave buys his freedom through his contract (somehow, and leaping over any number of hoops and hurdles making it practically impossible) an Asmodean wouldn't free him.

Certainly not on a lark, certainly not out of mercy.

There's a contract, there's an obligation to labor. Asmodeans aren't in the business of manumission.


Yakman wrote:

imho, unless the slave buys his freedom through his contract (somehow, and leaping over any number of hoops and hurdles making it practically impossible) an Asmodean wouldn't free him.

Certainly not on a lark, certainly not out of mercy.

There's a contract, there's an obligation to labor. Asmodeans aren't in the business of manumission.

True but I believe the clerics of a god are really varied. My PC is LN, he is ambitious, selfish to some extent, loves rules and discipline but he's not cruel. He believes that violence and harsh punishments are needed sometimes but he finds them unpleasant and inconvenient. He'd like to be above all others but he doesn't care to oppress anyone, just that the rules are followed. And I think that is acceptable for an Asmodean.

He is an Asmodean because he was born in Cheliax, the church gives him a way to wealth and power and Asmodeus just cares that you do as you're told. He would just as easily serve Abadar or Iomedae if he were in another country.

Liberty's Edge

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I think a Cheliax-born Asmodean would not even consider freeing a slave barring extremely unusual circumstances, such as the slave saving his life

Why bother with slavery at all if free creatures bring you more benefits ? But then Asmodeus, LE god of slavery, will not smile on you

Consider that, for Asmodeus, society prospers by everyone being at their proper place, regardless of their wishes

A slave is a slave because that that is the state it deserves unless something extraordinary happens that shows the slave should actually be of free person status

Doing otherwise is saying that you know better than the laws, traditions and legitimate authorities that decided in their wisdom that this creature should be a slave. That is not a Lawful mindset IMO


The Raven Black wrote:

I think a Cheliax-born Asmodean would not even consider freeing a slave barring extremely unusual circumstances, such as the slave saving his life

Why bother with slavery at all if free creatures bring you more benefits ? But then Asmodeus, LE god of slavery, will not smile on you

Consider that, for Asmodeus, society prospers by everyone being at their proper place, regardless of their wishes

A slave is a slave because that that is the state it deserves unless something extraordinary happens that shows the slave should actually be of free person status

Doing otherwise is saying that you know better than the laws, traditions and legitimate authorities that decided in their wisdom that this creature should be a slave. That is not a Lawful mindset IMO

I'll try to keep this really short.

motivation:
Cleric is non-human, left at an orphanage after his parents died, got beat up a lot as a child, now disguises himself as human every day, only slave knows he's non-human. Blames his parents for screwing his life up, he thinks they had a half-race kid and then abandoned it. The slave was born a slave, he believes they are in the same situation, stuck for life by idiot parents. He sympathizes, he can't do anything about his situation but at least he can do something about hers.

It might not be consistent, but no one is consistent all the time...


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Alni wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I think a Cheliax-born Asmodean would not even consider freeing a slave barring extremely unusual circumstances, such as the slave saving his life

Why bother with slavery at all if free creatures bring you more benefits ? But then Asmodeus, LE god of slavery, will not smile on you

Consider that, for Asmodeus, society prospers by everyone being at their proper place, regardless of their wishes

A slave is a slave because that that is the state it deserves unless something extraordinary happens that shows the slave should actually be of free person status

Doing otherwise is saying that you know better than the laws, traditions and legitimate authorities that decided in their wisdom that this creature should be a slave. That is not a Lawful mindset IMO

I'll try to keep this really short.

** spoiler omitted **

It might not be consistent, but no one is consistent all the time...

I think your character background makes your character unique, and not less valid. I think even though the decission of freeing the slave might sound off at first sight it's only something that adds some deepness to your character. I'm mostly against black or white deffinitions of what a character would or wouldn't do, as some shades of grey give realism to a character.


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Alni wrote:
Yakman wrote:

imho, unless the slave buys his freedom through his contract (somehow, and leaping over any number of hoops and hurdles making it practically impossible) an Asmodean wouldn't free him.

Certainly not on a lark, certainly not out of mercy.

There's a contract, there's an obligation to labor. Asmodeans aren't in the business of manumission.

True but I believe the clerics of a god are really varied. My PC is LN, he is ambitious, selfish to some extent, loves rules and discipline but he's not cruel. He believes that violence and harsh punishments are needed sometimes but he finds them unpleasant and inconvenient. He'd like to be above all others but he doesn't care to oppress anyone, just that the rules are followed. And I think that is acceptable for an Asmodean.

He is an Asmodean because he was born in Cheliax, the church gives him a way to wealth and power and Asmodeus just cares that you do as you're told. He would just as easily serve Abadar or Iomedae if he were in another country.

It's not cruel to enforce a labor contract. It's just to see that it is upheld on both ends. He might not beat his slave (more than the law and discipline requires), but he's not going to free him unless the contract allows for it and those hurdles are met (and in Cheliax, it's going to be a lot of hurdles).

He might be LN, but he's serving a god of Slavery and Oppression. It's going to tinge his actions.

I'd recommend, if you have a chance, doing a bit of reading about the "coloureds" and "free blacks" in San Domingue (the french colony which became Haiti). The successful ones frequently owned slaves, kept the slave economy going, and many (but not all) fought to defend the slave system when everything came crashing down. Many of them were born slaves, or their parent(s) were slaves, yet they didn't challenge the system that they existed in. (There's also a delightful podcast called "Revolutions" which has a series on the Haitian Revolution, which I heartily endorse).

I would suspect that even a kind Cheliaxan slave master remains a Cheliaxan slave master despite his kindnesses to his chattel.


Yakman wrote:

It's not cruel to enforce a labor contract. It's just to see that it is upheld on both ends. He might not beat his slave (more than the law and discipline requires), but he's not going to free him unless the contract allows for it and those hurdles are met (and in Cheliax, it's going to be a lot of hurdles).

He might be LN, but he's serving a god of Slavery and Oppression. It's going to tinge his actions.

I'd recommend, if you have a chance, doing a bit of reading about the "coloureds" and "free blacks" in San Domingue (the french colony which became Haiti). The successful ones frequently owned slaves, kept the slave economy going, and many (but not all) fought to defend the slave system when everything came crashing down. Many of them were born slaves, or their parent(s) were slaves, yet they didn't challenge the system that they existed in. (There's also a delightful podcast called "Revolutions" which has a series on the Haitian Revolution, which I heartily endorse).

I would suspect that even a kind Cheliaxan slave master remains a Cheliaxan slave master despite his kindnesses to his chattel.

I'll look into the stuff you recommended sounds interesting, I did a bit of a quite depressing search into the topic. As it is I did assume that even certain slaves may not be opposed to slavery, and neither is the cleric.

Still, I don't see it impossible that there would be one case where someone wanted to free their slave. It's not about the general attitude in Cheliax, is just about one specific twenty two year old Cheliaxian slave master school teacher / newbie cleric that owns a single slave he can barely afford for the past two years.


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Alni wrote:
Yakman wrote:

It's not cruel to enforce a labor contract. It's just to see that it is upheld on both ends. He might not beat his slave (more than the law and discipline requires), but he's not going to free him unless the contract allows for it and those hurdles are met (and in Cheliax, it's going to be a lot of hurdles).

He might be LN, but he's serving a god of Slavery and Oppression. It's going to tinge his actions.

I'd recommend, if you have a chance, doing a bit of reading about the "coloureds" and "free blacks" in San Domingue (the french colony which became Haiti). The successful ones frequently owned slaves, kept the slave economy going, and many (but not all) fought to defend the slave system when everything came crashing down. Many of them were born slaves, or their parent(s) were slaves, yet they didn't challenge the system that they existed in. (There's also a delightful podcast called "Revolutions" which has a series on the Haitian Revolution, which I heartily endorse).

I would suspect that even a kind Cheliaxan slave master remains a Cheliaxan slave master despite his kindnesses to his chattel.

I'll look into the stuff you recommended sounds interesting, I did a bit of a quite depressing search into the topic. As it is I did assume that even certain slaves may not be opposed to slavery, and neither is the cleric.

Still, I don't see it impossible that there would be one case where someone wanted to free their slave. It's not about the general attitude in Cheliax, is just about one specific twenty two year old Cheliaxian slave master school teacher / newbie cleric that owns a single slave he can barely afford for the past two years.

the burden of slavery goes both ways.

that being said, I would suggest that an Asmodean cleric freeing a slave is going to have to atone in some way to his god. he's acting extremely contrary to his faith in doing that.

maybe it will cause a crisis of faith and move him towards some other deity - Abadar perhaps, or maybe even further up the alignment chart towards Iomedae, or even (gasp!) Shelyn, as the action knocks him to Neutral from Lawful Neutral.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A lot of talk has been had about manumission and the loyalty factor, but...

...the best chains that bind are invisible and strong ones.

Trading in metal and humiliation for trust and loyalty in a worthy subject will bind them to a person harder and faster than any sort of 'slavery' arrangement.

The analogy I'd suggest in this case is the military.

My military experience was that an enlistee was 'property' of the government, as much as a main battle tank, a pair of boots, or an assault rifle.

Sure, members of the military (now) are volunteers and get paid (albeit not nearly enough for the job they're asked to do) but they are bound by their oath to service.

No one can force 'military bearing'. Either a person has the capacity for it, or they do not.

Better to build up after breaking down, than constantly break down one's resources.

Asmodeus, as hinted earlier in the thread, has bigger fish to fry and heck, this might even give him a few ideas for how to deal with problematic sorts in the future (such as that Cayden guy, or even Calistria...)

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