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made a half-orc bloodrager with the abyssal bloodline. looking at using armor spikes, plus claws, plus razortusk bite attack. any suggestions on how to optimize my natural attacks (which are all secondary attacks when I use my armor spikes) for both damage and to hit? I've got some ideas, but I'd like to see what the community comes up with. about to hit 6th level and trying to plan feats and equipment.
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the party has a bard that's a dedicated buffer, I was trying for as many attacks as possible so those static benefits pile up in a round. With armor spikes (because he's a worshiper of Gorum) at 6th level that would give me 2 attacks with spikes, 2 claws, 1 bite. I'm really trying to just figure out how to get more bonuses with the natural attacks.
Why do they not have access to their natural attacks at all times? Unlike their sorcerer counterpart they don't have a limit to how often they can use their claws (unless I'm missing something big).
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Are you using the Rageshaper archetype? Because it has some pretty solid benefits for natural attack-heavy Bloodragers.
You can take multiattack.
Because you are using a manufactured weapon, all your natural attcaks become secondary attacks. Multiattack changes that penalty from -5 to -2, which is pretty nice
It is still rather questionable, since multiattack does nothing to address the large damage reduction- you only get 1/2 str and power attack bonuses. I know blood ragers can get arcane strike to ease things a bit, but that is a rather large loss in damage for something like that, along with the penalties and the need to spend a feat just to make the attacks even function at all.
Combine that with the fact that the armor spikes need seperate enhancement (thus bringing your enhancement budget up to 3x that of a 2 handed user), and it leaves a lot of questions on how useful armor spikes are.
With access to buffs like monstrous physique or monstrous extremities (boosted by the rage shaper archetype), blood ragers are not exactly starving for extra attacks here.
Be a Ragebred Skinwalker, and take the Extra Feature feat. You'll have 2 claws, 2 hooves, and a gore attack at level 1.
Interesting that the abyssal bloodline only gets claws while raging, but draconic bloodline gets claws all the time. Honestly making a barbarian like character that doesn't work when not raging isn't anything new.
Interesting that the abyssal bloodline only gets claws while raging, but draconic bloodline gets claws all the time. Honestly making a barbarian like character that doesn't work when not raging isn't anything new.
Draconic claws also are only grown during a Bloodrage. The general rule for Bloodline Powers is "Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage," and the wording on the Draconic claws power doesn't say that they're kept when not in a bloodrage (as opposed to the Power of Wyrms bloodline power, which includes the line You have these benefits constantly, even while not bloodraging.").
Where are you finding that "general rule"? It seems to me to specifically allow them all the time compare the claw abilities of abyssal and draconic and to the sorcerer version. Also comparing sorcerer and bloodrager it doesn't make sense for things like draconic resistance to only be up when raging.
It's odd that they have 2 different wordings (while bloodraging and even while not bloodraging) yet they don't use them at all for some abilities...
Regardless of the general rule the Draconic Bloodline does have specific wording stating that the claws are up all the time. This differs from both other Bloodrager Bloodlines that grant claws (like Abyssal) and Sorcerer Bloodlines that grant claws (like the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline).
I fail to understand how that is not "otherwise specified".
I see no such wording that says they have it all the time, it just doesn't say while bloodraging. The specific rule of it only applying during bloodrage should apply.
Right. It doesn't say while bloodraging. The others do. Even those that aren't part of the bloodrager bloodlines limit when you can use the claws. It would take the addition of text that does not exist as part of the ability to make it only happen while bloodraging.
It says, "At first level, you grow claws."
How is that unclear? This is definitely different than Abyssal which says, "At 1st level, you grow claws while bloodraging."
That is clearly different. In other words, it is "otherwise specified". It says that he grows them at first level. It does not say that he grows them only when he bloodrages. How else would you word something to "otherwise specify"? I can't even fathom why anyone would think that the text being written as such would not, in their mind, count as "otherwise specified". I mean... do you think the difference in the wording between bloodlines was just a mistake? If they intended for it to be purposeful how do you think they could have done that?
However, in an effort to understand the other side to this discussion... am I to believe that those who think that the claws are not constant also believe that Draconic's natural armor boost and energy resistance is also only active during a bloodrage? What about the Power of Wyrms abilities? Is that only during a bloodrage?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
To me (and apparently others), when it says "At first level, you grow claws." I believe that it means that at first level, you grow claws. To me it is specifying that you grow claws at first level. It does not have the verbiage that the other abilities (both within that bloodline and in other bloodlines) have.
I guess we could ask for intent of the Devs but I doubt we are likely to get a response. Until then I am thinking disagreements on this will be rampant.
Scott Wilhelm has good suggestions ... so long as the claws from Bloodrager are permanent.
On that topic I think I'm just going to bow out. I have done research on it and it boils down to bad writing/editing in the ACG. In fact, it is so bad that I feel any attempt to debate the topic is pointless as it can be taken any number of different ways and without a Dev post clarifying intent, a FAQ or errata (which is what is really needed) there is no way to determine the correct meaning. None.
With the number of posts I found on the topic (both on these boards and elsewhere) I would think that this would have qualified for a FAQ by now but I see there are only 4 questions for the ACG FAQ currently. That is absurd.
Honestly, I think I am just going to avoid debates on rules from that book because as far as I can tell everyone loses on such debates. Also, it appears that Paizo doesn't care to clarify anything on this.
My group house-ruled that the claws were active/available constantly for a dragon-blood sorcerer (it's just one less thing to track), so it doesn't affect me. I do see the "general rule" line that you have pointed out, but still find it odd that the wording is different.
(my understanding correct me if I'm wrong)
Armor spikes turn your natural attacks into secondary attacks. This means they get a -5 to hit and only add half your strength to their damage. If you have 3 primary natural attacks those attacks now hit 25% less often and do less damage. The attack from armor spikes isn't worth it.
Level 6 comparison 20 str reference (pre-feats):
Claw/Claw/Bite
+11/+11 (1d6+5) +11 (1d4+5)
Armor spike/claw/claw/bite
+11/+6 (1d6+5) +6/+6 (1d6+2) +6 (1d4+2)
If we add up the average damage assuming every swing hits no spikes do 24.5 damage, with spikes 32.5 damage. The -5 to hit roughly translate to 1 miss every round which will lower damage to 26.5 damage.
Now let's apply some other stuff.
Lets go to 8th level 28 str (20 base + 2 belt)(+4 rage)(+2 size)
Claws are now 2d6 damage (1d8 base + size)
Bite is 1d6, spikes are 1d8
Power attack is in place -3 attack +6 damage primary or +3 damage secondary.
+1 on spikes and +1 amulet of mighty fists
Claw/Claw/Bite
+13/+13 (2d6+14) +13 (1d6+14) ave 59.5
Spikes/Claw/Claw/Bite
+13/+8 (1d8+14) +8/+8 (2d6+7) +8 (1d6+7) ave 75.5 with misses 61.25
If you want, you can get (up to DM's approval) improved natural attack increasing claw damage to 2d8, or multi-attack which changes the -5 from using natural attack with the spike to -2. Multi-attack in the last equation puts average damage up to ~69.
Conclusion. Armor spikes seem to add a bit of damage and a lot of flavor to your character. I say go for it if that is the character you want to build.
Monk (unchained) dip + Feral combat training- This gives you one extra attack at the cost of a feat and a level in bloodrager (also seems to not fit the character). If the dip included 4 levels of monk to pick up monastic legacy (another feat) he would get another attack sometimes (Ki cost) and his damage die would be increased by level (+1 at 4th, +2 at 12th, +3 at 20th). I don't feel that this line is worth it versus going full bloodrager. An increase of 3 steps + improve natural weapon means a base of 3d6 or 4d6 when large. This increases damage of a claw attack by 7 damage.
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ACG errata will be out before gencon. I'd post the dev quote link but I'm on my phone so you'll just have to take my word for it. If you want to search my post history for the word gencon you should be able to find it.
Boar skin walker with first feat as extra features has five natural attacks at level 1 (assuming claws as a rage power). Throw rageshaper on top of that and you'll eventually be doing sick damage. A furious amulet of Mighty Fists is only 4k and will turn you're weapon into a plus two weapon whenever it matters.
If you want, you can get (up to DM's approval) improved natural attack increasing claw damage to 2d8, or multi-attack which changes the -5 from using natural attack with the spike to -2. Multi-attack in the last equation puts average damage up to ~69.
It's only up to DM's approval as much as any feat is. There are no rules against taking it unless the GM makes one up (such as excluding certain books or specific feats). It also wouldn't stack with rageshaper if he chose to take that archetype. Also 2d6 increase to 3d6, not to 2d8.
ACG will be out before gencon.
What? ACG has been out for some time. Do you mean the FAQ for it? I am confused.
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ACG will be out before gencon.What? ACG has been out for some time. Do you mean the FAQ for it? I am confused.
I meant ACG errata. Phone must've ate that word..
HERE is the link. I also edited the phone-ness out of my last post.
Oh, snap. Thank you for the link, claudekennilol!
As you want number of attacks, you really should consider Primalist and get the Barbarian bite power. Also, look for a race with another kind of natrual attack, like Wearboar Skinwalker with a goar attack or any of the Skinwalkers if you don't want do trade away any bloodline rage powers for bite.
Why do they not have access to their natural attacks at all times? Unlike their sorcerer counterpart they don't have a limit to how often they can use their claws (unless I'm missing something big).As far as I know, they only get them while in rage/bloodrage/mutagen. Barbarians and Bloodragers only have access to them ~7 +level number of rounds each day. At level 5, that would mean that each encounter would only have to take 3 rounds or you would run out before the day ended.
Though I guess a regular greatsword to fall back on isn't too terrible, as you'd probably already have all the essential feats for THF.
I usually find there are usually only a small number of 'serious' fights in a day. Most of them are against mooks or mid range thugs. Don't bother pulling out all the stops in those encounters. Smash them down with a free greatclub and save your claws for need.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
To me (and apparently others), when it says "At first level, you grow claws." I believe that it means that at first level, you grow claws. To me it is specifying that you grow claws at first level. It does not have the verbiage that the other abilities (both within that bloodline and in other bloodlines) have.
I guess we could ask for intent of the Devs but I doubt we are likely to get a response. Until then I am thinking disagreements on this will be rampant.
This difference you list is irrelevant because of the rule pertaining to all bloodlines.
"Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal."
Power of Wyrms explicitly states that you get the ability even while not bloodraging, the draconic claws ability has no such language.
Sah- you think the different wording is an accident and they should function the same. -RAW
I think they are intentionally worded different and thus work differently. -RAI
I agree with the side that says you only get claws while bloodraging. I don't think that's an issue, though, your can bloodrage every combat once you are lvl 4-6, the levels when druids wildshape too. You just use some alternative in the meanwhile, as druids do (and you still hace some nat att at los level, unlike druid)
Half orc gets bite. Tieflings can get bite too. Fiend totem (with the archtype that gives your rage powers) gives you gore, so does Helm of mammoth lord. Being kobold let you have a tail slap with a feat, I believe. Someone suggested skinshifters and hooves, which I was unaware but seems cool. Aasimar can get 2 wing slaps at highish lvl. There are also other items, like the cloak with tentacles
At the bare mininum you should aim for 4 nat attacks: half orc with tusks, (bite), fiend totem or mammoth lord's helm (gore) and claws (draconic/abyssal).
I think they are intentionally worded different and thus work differently. -RAI
Shouldn't that argument also work for draconic claws compared to Power of the Wyrms, which is worded different to explicitly mention it's permanent?
It's only up to DM's approval as much as any feat is. There are no rules against taking it unless the GM makes one up (such as excluding certain books or specific feats). It also wouldn't stack with rageshaper if he chose to take that archetype. Also 2d6 increase to 3d6, not to 2d8.
If you want, you can get (up to DM's approval) improved natural attack increasing claw damage to 2d8, or multi-attack which changes the -5 from using natural attack with the spike to -2. Multi-attack in the last equation puts average damage up to ~69.
It's a little more up for DM approval than other feats. Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack are both monster feats. The DM should be consulted to see if monster feats are approved for PC characters. If memory serves me correctly, they are not permitted in PFS play.