Reflex save while paralyzed


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I have been looking for ages, but I can't find any rules against Reflex saves being effected (Other than dex = 0) when paralyzed and helpless!

For example, my wizard was doing a 1v1 against my rogue/brawler friend (Douche literally became a rogue JUST for that evasion and more reflex :/)
I ended up using Hold Person on him, paralyzing him. Then I used the 'Create pit' spell however he succeeded his reflex save (Which was like +8 without his dex -_-) so while he was paralyzed and helpless, he ended up moving a square out of the pit (When you succeed reflex save on the pit, you automatically move out of the way)

So... did we do that right or was he suppose to fall into the pit? (Thus letting me win a lot faster without wasting all my spells, bloody douche with his 31 AC, +12 reflex with evasion and really high touch AC)


do you even still get a ST when you're helpless?


Klorox wrote:
do you even still get a ST when you're helpless?

Magical items do ... so why not ?

DEX=0 eliminates any conscious ducking or dodging from reflex saves leaving innate abilities and shear luck.


Klorox wrote:
do you even still get a ST when you're helpless?

Nothing says you don't, so yes.


Neadenil Edam wrote:
Klorox wrote:
do you even still get a ST when you're helpless?

Magical items do ... so why not ?

DEX=0 eliminates any conscious ducking or dodging from reflex saves leaving innate abilities and shear luck.

How can innate abilities and sheer luck effect a magical pit appearing right under you while the only things you can do is think and breath? (Seriously, can't even talk)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

A paralyzed creature has an effective STR and DEX of 0, so -5 penalty, but it seems the forum denizens agree you don't automatically fail. Certainly RAW does not say you fail.


You're only automatically a willing target if you're unconscious. If you're helpless you're still unwilling and therefore get a saving throw, as there isn't anything anywhere saying you don't.

This does mean somebody who is hit with a Hold Person then a Create Pit dropped underneath them still gets a save, just as if their Dexterity modifier was a -5 (don't forget to calculate as if Dex was -5, removing the existing Dex mod then subtracting 5 instead of just subtracting 5. I've known a lot of people who forget that and just subtract 5 from their normal Reflex).

Basically, the logic is that while you may not be able to actively dodge things there's still a chance of dumb luck saving you.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Well, a Dex of zero gives him a Dex mod of -5, so adding that to his base save of +8 gives him a Reflex save bonus of +3.

Or did his base Reflex save, resistance bonus, and other non-Dex bonuses to saves actually add up to +13?


White-Mage wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:
Klorox wrote:
do you even still get a ST when you're helpless?

Magical items do ... so why not ?

DEX=0 eliminates any conscious ducking or dodging from reflex saves leaving innate abilities and shear luck.

How can innate abilities and sheer luck effect a magical pit appearing right under you while the only things you can do is think and breath? (Seriously, can't even talk)

Yep, just one of many examples where RAW results in odd results due to "unforeseen circumstances having unexpected consequences".

In a home game this would be a DM call of the "it's stupid so no" type. In PFS you would just have to put up with the occasional peculiar result.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

You make reflex saves with an effective asexual of 0, when:
Unconscious
Helpless
Paralyzed
Etc


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I read that as his base was at least +13 (likely higher) before penalty, but his other note seemed to indicate otherwise.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Risner wrote:

You make reflex saves with an effective asexual of 0, when:

Unconscious
Helpless
Paralyzed
Etc

I had never heard of an effective asexual intil just now.

Liberty's Edge

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Johnico wrote:

You're only automatically a willing target if you're unconscious. If you're helpless you're still unwilling and therefore get a saving throw, as there isn't anything anywhere saying you don't.

This does mean somebody who is hit with a Hold Person then a Create Pit dropped underneath them still gets a save, just as if their Dexterity modifier was a -5 (don't forget to calculate as if Dex was -5, removing the existing Dex mod then subtracting 5 instead of just subtracting 5. I've known a lot of people who forget that and just subtract 5 from their normal Reflex).

Basically, the logic is that while you may not be able to actively dodge things there's still a chance of dumb luck saving you.

Note that the part in the rules about a unconscious creature being a willing target is relevant for spells that require a willing target (like teleport), it has nothing to do with saving throws. You still get all your saves even if are unconscious.

You can voluntarily fail a save, but that is a different matter and require a conscious decision.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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taks wrote:
James Risner wrote:

You make reflex saves with an effective asexual of 0, when:

Unconscious
Helpless
Paralyzed
Etc
I had never heard of an effective asexual intil just now.

It's unfortunately cell phones idea of funny autocorrect jokes.

Effective DEX of 0


Hold Person - The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place.

Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

Create pit:
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space

Saving Throw Types
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws

Thus in your scenario described there is no reflex save.

Clearly to use a reflex save you must be able to dodge.
You cannot dodge while paralyzed as you are unable to move. The character cannot jump to safety.


Diego Rossi wrote:

You still get all your saves even if are unconscious.

You can voluntarily fail a save, but that is a different matter and require a conscious decision.

This actually brings up an interesting point of consideration I often find myself thinking about.

You get to make saving throws while unconscious. But because you're unconscious, you cannot make the conscious decision to voluntarily fail your saving throw.

This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

You want a justification for how a paralyzed character manages to avoid a pit spell? As the extradimensional space forms, the warp in the local dimensions manages to shift the target just enough to the side to not fall in.

If someone puts forth the effort to be that good at Reflex saves I say let them have it.


Saethori wrote:


This actually brings up an interesting point of consideration I often find myself thinking about.

You get to make saving throws while unconscious. But because you're unconscious, you cannot make the conscious decision to voluntarily fail your saving throw.

This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means.

The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Quintain wrote:
The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading.

That is my interpretation as well. This might be importatnt for superstitious barbarians.


Zaister wrote:
Quintain wrote:
The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading.
That is my interpretation as well. This might be importatnt for superstitious barbarians.

Interesting (I'm currently playing a superstitious barbarian). Though honestly, it's not hard to work around that. What usually happens is that, once the fight is over, the healer channels (I'm usually not the only one in need of healing), and once I can safely end my rage, I do so (and I can be cured the rest of the way).

Scarab Sages

Quintain wrote:

The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading.

Not by a strict read of the spell. It is well known that you can save against harmless spell, in fact that is the critical drawback to the Superstition rage power.

So we look to the spell entries, and they conflict a bit.

the save entry on Cure Light Wounds is "Saving Throw Will half (harmless); see text;" This indicates a saving throw for the healing portion of the spell (that's why the harmless designation is present). The "see text" portion then references the save throw for undead, wherein the spell is definitely not harmless.


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Saethori wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

You still get all your saves even if are unconscious.

You can voluntarily fail a save, but that is a different matter and require a conscious decision.

This actually brings up an interesting point of consideration I often find myself thinking about.

You get to make saving throws while unconscious. But because you're unconscious, you cannot make the conscious decision to voluntarily fail your saving throw.

This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means.

Not quite.

Harmless wrote:

(harmless)

The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.

If it doesn't desire otherwise (e.g. if it is unconscious), it automatically forgoes its saving throw.


ryric wrote:

You want a justification for how a paralyzed character manages to avoid a pit spell? As the extradimensional space forms, the warp in the local dimensions manages to shift the target just enough to the side to not fall in.

If someone puts forth the effort to be that good at Reflex saves I say let them have it.

Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".

Second, the character in question already gets a saving throw against hold person each round.

Correct interpretation of the rules:

Round 1 - Caster casts hold person.
Subject gets a save against hold person. (on their next action)
Round 2 - Caster casts Create Pit.
Subject does not get a reflex save as they are paralyzed, and falls into pit.


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Neadenil Edam wrote:
Yep, just one of many examples where RAW results in odd results due to "unforeseen circumstances having unexpected consequences".

Nothing unforeseen about it. Gygax himself addressed this issue way back in 1st edition AD&D:

Dungeon Master's Guide wrote:


Could a man chained to a rock, they asked, save himself from the blast of a red dragon's breath? Why not?, I replied... Imagine that the figure, at the last moment, of course, manages to drop beneath the licking flames, or finds a crevice in which to shield his or her body, or succeeds in finding a way to be free of the fetters. Why not?

The 3.5 FAQ makes the same point:

Quote:

Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

You may disagree with it, but it's definitely rules-as-intended. You can make a Reflex save while paralyzed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".

I disagree.

Create Pit wrote:
Saving Throw Reflex negates;

The spell describes how you make the save, but does not prevent you from making the save.


though, of course, at a hefty penalty.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".

I disagree.

Create Pit wrote:
Saving Throw Reflex negates;
The spell describes how you make the save, but does not prevent you from making the save.

No, the effects of hold person vs the description of what a reflex saving throw is prevents it.

Saving Throw Types
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Paralyzed
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act

If you can't move and can't act you can't have a reflex saving throw.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?


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Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

Any one you cast Create Pit on.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The spell only allows creatures in the area to make saves, so that is irrelevant. Being able to move is not actually a requirement to make the save.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

The jump thing is just fluff. Just like Windy Escape.


Sundakan wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

Any one you cast Create Pit on.

No.

Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw...

So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.


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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Inanimate objects make Reflex saves, so that doesn't work.

What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw to " jump to safety in the nearest open space"?

The jump thing is just fluff. Just like Windy Escape.

Hilarious.

Because why would you want to include all the rules and come up with a reasonable idea of the spells effects when you can just declare what you want as "fluff".


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The spell only allows creatures in the area to make saves, so that is irrelevant. Being able to move is not actually a requirement to make the save.

Based on what? The rule for a reflex saving throw is that you dodge.

Are you suggesting that inanimate objects and paralyzed individuals can dodge?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have to check, but they appear to have errataed that line anyway. If the "leap to a square" text remains, you can certainly rule that a successful save still doesn't help. But they still get the save, pointless as it may be.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.

Per rule, they do.

Quote:


Saving Throws

Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws.

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. [...] An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Are you suggesting that inanimate objects and paralyzed individuals can dodge?

No, I am telling you that inanimate objects get Reflex saves to halve damage and the like, so not being able to move does not prevent Reflex saves.


What inanimate object gets a reflex saving throw?
Can you cite this somewhere?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.

Per rule, they do.

Quote:


Saving Throws

Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws.

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. [...] An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.

you just said: Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws.

The other items are on a moving person, or are magical.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The spell only allows creatures in the area to make saves, so that is irrelevant. Being able to move is not actually a requirement to make the save.

Based on what? The rule for a reflex saving throw is that you dodge.

Are you suggesting that inanimate objects and paralyzed individuals can dodge?

Your ability to dodge in pathfinder is not governed by your ability to move.

PRD wrote:

Reflex

These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Reflex saves are the only thing that govern your ability to dodge in Pathfinder. Therefore, if you have successfully rolled your reflex save, you have dodged by definition.

You are never denied the benefit of a save you have made, you can look through every Pathfinder book and supplemental FAQ and you will not find one instance of this being true. If you roll your save successfully you get the benefit of it, it is one indivisible event.


Your ability to dodge in pathfinder is not governed by your ability to move.

Since when? And what do you base that on?

Reflex saves are the only thing that govern your ability to dodge in Pathfinder. Therefore, if you have successfully rolled your reflex save, you have dodged by definition.

You are never denied the benefit of a save you have made, you can look through every Pathfinder book and supplemental FAQ and you will not find one instance of this being true. If you roll your save successfully you get the benefit of it, it is one indivisible event.

Again, how can you dodge when you are paralyzed? Simply you can't.
You don't get a save in the first place.


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False, the wording of the spell allows you to make a reflex save, therefore you get a reflex save.

Your immobility is taken into account in the reflex save itself, in the form of a -5 to the roll. If you make the save in spite of your immobility (represented by the -5) then you have dodged. That's how the rules system works. Again, I challenge you to find a single instance in the entirety of Pathfinder showing another resolution of this and present it here.


Essentially the character becomes an unattended non-magical item. Per the rules:

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws.

Further backing this up:

Performing a Combat Maneuver-
If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds

(note you get no defense against a combat maneuver when immobilized).

Paralyzed
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

note - "AND IS HELPLESS".

Not "Can dodge without moving"


Ridiculon wrote:

False, the wording of the spell allows you to make a reflex save, therefore you get a reflex save.

Your immobility is taken into account in the reflex save itself, in the form of a -5 to the roll. If you make the save in spite of your immobility (represented by the -5) then you have dodged. That's how the rules system works. Again, I challenge you to find a single instance in the entirety of Pathfinder showing another resolution of this and present it here.

The wording of the spell lets you get a reflex save to jump out of the way.

You can't jump when you are paralyzed.

Therefore just like an inanimate object you would get no save.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Essentially the character becomes an unattended non-magical item.

Citation needed.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:


Since when? And what do you base that on?

Since first edition, and every new edition since.

The rules, Gary Gygax, repeated developer comments over the course of 30 years up to and including including Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:

The wording of the spell lets you get a reflex save to jump out of the way.

You can't jump when you are paralyzed.

Therefore just like an inanimate object you would get no save.

You are welcome to tell the player that even a successful save will not avoid the pit, as they cannot move out of the square.

They still can make the save.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Essentially the character becomes an unattended non-magical item.
Citation needed.

I've given about 10.

You haven't given one.


Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kaliel Windstorm wrote:
So inanimate objects wouldn't get one.

Per rule, they do.

Quote:


Saving Throws

Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws.

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. [...] An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Attended (Held/Wielded etc.) Items: Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack.

you just said: Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws.

The other items are on a moving person, or are magical.

Toss a magic sword on the ground. Cast Create Pit (if it's a valid target, which Intelligent magic items may be. Unclear), or Fireball, or any other Ref save spell. It gets a save.

Narratively speaking, this is not uncommon. Ever wonder how the hero's magic demon slaying sword always seems to stop just short of falling off a cliff?

By all means, feel free to change this in your game, but things get Reflex saves where applicable regardless of their ability to move by the rules. The Rules Question here has been answered.

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