How do you deal with conserving your spell power?


Advice


Self-explanatory title.

We're delving through a dungeon from a 3.X tournament module, and I find that I'm too afraid to use any of my spell points (well, spell slots, but it's an alternate rules system, you get the idea) because I'll end up not having enough of the spell power for the big bad(s) that we'll end up having to fight.

From what we're told, the module is split into 3 parts, and we're about done with the 1st part now. I've spent ~1/3 of my spell power, but it's all been 1st level spells (3 of them have been Cure Light spells). I know there's a big bad in the dungeon since I designed her (of course, the PCs don't know, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't try to save our power), so if I spend too many spells in the fight, I won't be able to contribute too well to the boss fight coming ahead (or the fights inbetween).

Oh, and wands with Cure Spells are not allowed for our table. Don't ask, because I'm sure you'd know why that is.


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Get a weapon with reach and aid another in combat.

Silver Crusade

I don't know what system you are using, so I'll stick to pathfinder rules.

There are various features typical of spellcaster that don't go out.
- First of all the Daze cantrip should be the fisrt action of an arcane caster for each round until he has dazed all the enemies.
- Witch's hexes are at will and are very strong. Wizards/Clerics and others get also some 3+Int/Wis/... per day abilities, some of which deal damage. They are a lot of uses at low level.
- If you are an arcane caster and you have finished your spells or you don't plan to use them for the next encounter, wear a light armor and brace your crossbow. If you don't cast spells, then you are a non-caster, so act and equip as one. If you are a divine caster, you should already have an armor on.
- Scrolls of Cure Light Wounds are as effective as the spell at low level (you talked only about wands).


don't heal people. Tell them your spells are worth more than some HP. That way you have more spells up and don't need to use them all for healing.


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By reminding myself that all of my saved spells won't help anyone if we're all dead.


You could take Chess Pwn's idea to the extreme by never healing at all. Just plow along through the dungeon until your PC dies. Then make a new PC at the same level. Repeat every session or two. I'd imagine that there are some groups where this is the norm.


What class are you? That adjusts stuff too.


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In my experience, spell conservation is one of the marks of a skilled caster-player. In other words, it's the sort of thing you just get better at by playing more.

My general rule of thumb is that i allow myself one (wizard, normally) spell per "ordinary" encounter and then I let the other characters handle what's left. This, in turn, forces me to face the question "will casting this spell shift the odds sufficiently in our favor that I can spend the rest of the combat preparing and drinking coffee?" If not, I need to pick a different spell. And if the encounter is easy enough that the rest of the the party doesn't need help, you can just go straight to the coffee stage.

If you're a cleric, you don't need bless up for every encounter; if you're the wizard, likewise for haste. There are certain spells that are almost no-brainers because they're always useful, but that doesn't mean that they should always be used.

Also, consumables are a thing. Even disallowing wands of CLW, it's still possible to be packing scrolls and potions that carry an entire day's spell load for when you really need them.


As Orfamay says, as a caster you use spells only if there is a real need for them. Just blowing them away for the sake of doing something is often a mistake.

That play-style is not for everyone, and most people prefer to be active most of the time. But it is a good idea for a marathon game.


Level and Class please

Rule of thumb
1 spell- easy encounter
2 spell- average encounter
3 spell- hard

More than that and your spell selection/use needs work

Staffs/Wands are great if affordable
Make other people pay for their healing items
Channel is way better healing than spells
Crossbow is better than spells at low level


If you are above level one, some spells can be used longer than others. For example produce flame lets you get one attack per level. If you got a spell like that and like 3rd level or something that is one spell you can keep using for three rounds.

The other options is to get a weapon and get in there and take a few swings. Range is likely better for most. A reach weapon is decent too.

Or zero level spells or things like cleric domain powers are useful. Which you can get one as a druid as well if you don't take an animal companion.

Also, you can stop to rest too. This depends on the situation a lot but is often valid. If you said 3 sections as in 3 encounters then a rest probably isn't expected. However if each section is 2 or 3 encounters then a rest is probably expected.


Abraham spalding wrote:
What class are you? That adjusts stuff too.

I am a Druid, if it helps.


Lorila Sorita wrote:

If you are above level one, some spells can be used longer than others. For example produce flame lets you get one attack per level. If you got a spell like that and like 3rd level or something that is one spell you can keep using for three rounds.

The other options is to get a weapon and get in there and take a few swings. Range is likely better for most. A reach weapon is decent too.

Or zero level spells or things like cleric domain powers are useful. Which you can get one as a druid as well if you don't take an animal companion.

Also, you can stop to rest too. This depends on the situation a lot but is often valid. If you said 3 sections as in 3 encounters then a rest probably isn't expected. However if each section is 2 or 3 encounters then a rest is probably expected.

I do have Produce Flame as a level 1 spell, and as a level 2 Domain (Fire Domain I picked); it's an okay spell, I generally use it if melee/physical damage is pointless (and there have been encounters like that before).

I have Wildshape as a level 5 Druid, so melee is fairly covered. I do need more to-hit, but I lack the buff spells to really make that shine.

I have my Cantrips/Orisons spent for utility/necessity things, like Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, etc. My Domain Power can be easily replaced with my Produce Flame bonus spell if necessary, but it is servicable for the meager stuff.

To be honest, I'm not sure if we can rest. It's not so much that we don't want to, it's more that even if we keep watch, we're going to be overrun with bad guys. If there was a surefire way to guarantee safe resting, then I'd like to hear it, because this "keeping watch" crap isn't going to cut it.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
What class are you? That adjusts stuff too.
I am a Druid, if it helps.

In that case, what sort of Druid? What is your nature bond? Any archetype? Are you built more for melee or spellcasting?

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am a Druid, if it helps.

It does. The druid has tons of good crowd control on his list, so your default tactics for an encounter should be to use one of those on turn one, then spend the rest of the turns in melee helping the others mop it up (or cast cantrips, or if you're sufficiently high level spam some first-level spells just for the fun of it).

Then when it's an extra dangerous encounter, you can go nova and throw out nasty spells every single turn. I've seen some scary caster novas going around.


That does help a lot.

You have wild shape which should allow you to fight most rounds. Meaning your a beatstick a good part.

Druid summons aren't as strong overall as summon monster but still offer damage, battlefield control, buffing and damage mitigation.

Use summons as you would use a short term controlled enemy. Move them to flank for you or block charge lanes and offer soft cover from ranged attacks. Attack with them of course. If they can eat an AoO so your buddy can do something without provoking. Aid other can be helpful as well of course.

If you need to stay out of melee use a repeating range attack spell like call lightning.

I consider it a success if I can finish my contribution to a fight in two spells or less.

If you end the day with spells leftover have a means to scribe or potion them if possible.

Sounds like you have the basics covered. Remember what you are saving for and open up then. It will make up for the wait. However if you need to cast to save a life do it.

Action economy of more players is worth the spell slots.


Devilkiller wrote:
You could take Chess Pwn's idea to the extreme by never healing at all. Just plow along through the dungeon until your PC dies. Then make a new PC at the same level. Repeat every session or two. I'd imagine that there are some groups where this is the norm.

You probably want something in between. Don't heal in combat except in direst emergency, but do heal up between combats so that you don't get a dire emergency in the next combat. Until you get high enough level to get Heal (which a Druid doesn't have anyway), spellcasting is better used to prevent damage than to heal it after the fact.


Druids get heal as a 7th level spell.


If it is not too late, the party should look into spells, class features, and items that will let you turn a cleared out room into a place that you can rest.

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Nohwear wrote:
If it is not too late, the party should look into spells, class features, and items that will let you turn a cleared out room into a place that you can rest.

...and the druid actually has spells for that :)


Abraham spalding wrote:
Druids get heal as a 7th level spell.

Oops, you're right. Getting mixed up with 1st Edition.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
If it is not too late, the party should look into spells, class features, and items that will let you turn a cleared out room into a place that you can rest.
...and the druid actually has spells for that :)

I would be inclined as to hear what these spells are, because I can't seem to find any that would indicate such.


Maybe Nowhear is thinking of spells like Campfire Wall. Whether or not PCs can take a break and rest while exploring the dungeon is mostly up to the DM though, especially at lower levels where the PCs probably don't have stuff like Magnificent Mansion.

@UnArcaneElection - I was mostly being sarcastic though I’ve actually seen players who border on that headfirst into the blender style of play. You're pretty much going to have to heal at some point if you want to survive though, and if the DM has banned Cure wands there's a good chance you'll need to blow some spell slots on healing (sounds like a cruel move by the DM though there's usually some "story" reason for stuff like that - just because it is part of the story doesn't mean it couldn't be an irritating story to play through though...)


I make my spells potent so I only need one.

For example, if you save or suck spells are persistent with high DCs.

Or your blast spells do massive damage to one shot or even nearly.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
Nohwear wrote:
If it is not too late, the party should look into spells, class features, and items that will let you turn a cleared out room into a place that you can rest.
...and the druid actually has spells for that :)
I would be inclined as to hear what these spells are, because I can't seem to find any that would indicate such.

Hide Campsite. It's a third level spell. Pretty handy if you need it.

Scarab Sages

Just use your spells. They're there to be your contribution to the situations at hand, and have something you can do regardless of spellcasting ability. Most schools of magic, domains, and other class features provide useful (occasionally) features to use between or after spells, but as Drahliana mentioned above: Saved spells are of little consolation to dead party members.

Think of it this way: Would you rather your allies got hurt and burned extra resources in the first several encounters a day, then hope that your spells could handle the last despite the deficit? Or would you rather those beginning encounters were cake-walks and then your whole group enters the final ones in better condition?


Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.


Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

The sad thing is, I actually have all of the Summon feats, up to and including Superior Summoning (+1 to the number of monsters you summon). I have certainly used them (or at least tried, 1 Round casting time can bite if I'm in the wrong position) in combat before, and they are good as distractions, soaking up damage, or even dealing damage if they can feasibly hit their target.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

Now, if I had access to Summon Monster, that'd be a whole different story; there are better creatures to summon (and better feats to select and synergize with it, such as Evolved Summon Monster), meaning I would have much more utility and my spell power would be infinitely more valuable since my ability to summon potent creatures reduces the necessity for increased expenditures.

Besides the casting time, the inefficient creature list, and the lack of further investments, the other big problem is that summoning creatures that are worthwhile take a lot of my Spell Power. Being a 5th level Druid, Summon Monster III costs 25% of my Spell Power for the day, and summoning anything less (even if I get more creatures out of it) seems like a waste of resources, especially because the only way they can contribute is by lucky rolls.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

I mostly agree. However, I had a druid that thoroughly enjoyed summoning a bunch of celestial big cats to pounce on things.

Side note: Did you know a group of cats is called a Clowder? It became a running joke and the other team mates would make angry cat sound effects on my turn. The comic value alone made this build worth it.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

I mostly agree. However, I had a druid that thoroughly enjoyed summoning a bunch of celestial big cats to pounce on things.

Side note: Did you know a group of cats is called a Clowder? It became a running joke and the other team mates would make angry cat sound effects on my turn. The comic value alone made this build worth it.

I have a feeling we'll be fighting Evil things soon enough, so I'm curious as to how you're able to summon Celestial creatures, even though Druids, AFAIK, can't summon creatures with Celestial or Fiendish templates because they require a Neutral alignment (on either axis).


Devilkiller wrote:


@UnArcaneElection - I was mostly being sarcastic though I’ve actually seen players who border on that headfirst into the blender style of play. You're pretty much going to have to heal at some point if you want to survive though, and if the DM has banned Cure wands there's a good chance you'll need to blow some spell slots on healing (sounds like a cruel move by the DM though there's usually some "story" reason for stuff like that - just because it is part of the story doesn't mean it couldn't be an irritating story to play through though...)

And given that the OP said they're playing a "tourney style" module, that lends itself a little bit more to at least discussing as a group if you want to make this "old-school" and allow people to add a new PC if they die.

For a one-shot type game (not one session, but just one adventure as a group of PCs), a group might decide to blow through like that and if you die you die, and the next possible chance the party stumbles on some poor sap who's unconscious but stabilized. It doesn't matter how they got there...its a different style of game at that point.

I'm running an Alch1/Wizard+ in RotRL, we're just hitting 4th level and I'm trying to do it the way the OP and Orfamay describe. Holding my best stuff for fights where there is an obvious "boss" in the enemy ranks. Straight group of goblins - I've tossed 1 bomb to get that nice splash+INT damage on the grouping, and then used either acid orb to finish off one or two, or my long-spear. What I'm loving about 2hd reach weapon is I threaten, so I can help with flanking, while staying out of immediate risk to self; and still cast (removing 1 hand on my turn).
I've been trying to hold my Bonded item cast as my "reserve", and in recent session I was actually OOC stressed because we had a "dire need" early in the game-day. I -hated- burning that before lunch, knowing we had a few encounters in front of us, but it was the best reasonable way to do what we needed. For any class, if you can get real OOC feelings about in-game things - it is part of what I love so much about RPGs.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

I mostly agree. However, I had a druid that thoroughly enjoyed summoning a bunch of celestial big cats to pounce on things.

Side note: Did you know a group of cats is called a Clowder? It became a running joke and the other team mates would make angry cat sound effects on my turn. The comic value alone made this build worth it.

I have a feeling we'll be fighting Evil things soon enough, so I'm curious as to how you're able to summon Celestial creatures, even though Druids, AFAIK, can't summon creatures with Celestial or Fiendish templates because they require a Neutral alignment (on either axis).

The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.

Edit: here it is

PRD Summon Monster wrote:
If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.


GM 1990 wrote:

The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.

Edit: here it is

PRD Summon Monster wrote:
If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.

Yes, that's right. But vanilla druids use summon nature's ally instead which doesn't allow templates.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
GM 1990 wrote:

The way I read the Summon Monster is you select either Celestial or Fiendish at time of casting, doesn't matter if you're Neutral. They then get "Smite" as well, which for lower level doesn't really do much except an extra +1 damage for most of the SM1 creatures, but can eventually add up, especially when the attacks bypass DR.

Edit: here it is

PRD Summon Monster wrote:
If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature.
Yes, that's right. But vanilla druids use summon nature's ally instead which doesn't allow templates.

That's interesting. I played druid to 4th level in our last campaign, and now wizard in our new one.

When I first looked up SMI, and noticed the Cele/Fiend template....I actually just assumed I'd been overlooking it on SNAI (which I don't think I ever cast, but had glanced at a few times).


Yeah, Summon Nature's Ally generally isn't as good as Summon Monster when it comes to damaging Evil foes. The Tiger is a bit of a perk on the SNA IV list though. I recall augmented tigers being pretty effective. Later on you start to get some other stuff like various giants who are pretty good in melee. Big air elementals with Whirlwind are also great.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

I mostly agree. However, I had a druid that thoroughly enjoyed summoning a bunch of celestial big cats to pounce on things.

Side note: Did you know a group of cats is called a Clowder? It became a running joke and the other team mates would make angry cat sound effects on my turn. The comic value alone made this build worth it.

I have a feeling we'll be fighting Evil things soon enough, so I'm curious as to how you're able to summon Celestial creatures, even though Druids, AFAIK, can't summon creatures with Celestial or Fiendish templates because they require a Neutral alignment (on either axis).

Actually, they weren't celestial. Just leopards. My mistake.


Beyond maybe level 3, I just never ran into this problem. With all the various options out there for casters, I tend to always be able to have plenty of spells, scrolls, potions, wands, etc., to be fully productive all day every day.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Besides the casting time, the inefficient creature list, and the lack of further investments, the other big problem is that summoning creatures that are worthwhile take a lot of my Spell Power. Being a 5th level Druid, Summon Monster III costs 25% of my Spell Power for the day, and summoning anything less (even if I get more creatures out of it) seems like a waste of resources, especially because the only way they can contribute is by lucky rolls.

First of all, what is your natures bond? For this kind of game with a dm that obviously likes to stretch the party you should have gone with an animal companion in barding armor that has good combat options. In which case you can spend a lot of your time letting your tiger or what have you do your work for you.

Second, you are missing the point of summon spells. They are as much control spells as anything else. If an enemy spends 2 turns attacking your summoned creature instead of you or your allies, that IS a contribution. THey can provide flanking bonuses to your combat oriented allies (a +2 is nothing to ignore, particularly at 5th level, and if theres a rogue they will love it. You can also close down lanes of movement with the right summons with careful placement and consideration. One summon can have more of an impact then 3-4 other instantaneous spells even if it never does a single hit point of damage to the enemy.

I would also ask what your physical stats are like? You said without buffs you cant really make the best use of wild shape, why? Again, given the nature of the campaign, you should be going for a more combat oriented druid then a casting focused one. If you have low physical stats, well theres your problem. Wild shape should be 5 hours of at least mild contribution to every encounter per day all on its own.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Besides the casting time, the inefficient creature list, and the lack of further investments, the other big problem is that summoning creatures that are worthwhile take a lot of my Spell Power. Being a 5th level Druid, Summon Monster III costs 25% of my Spell Power for the day, and summoning anything less (even if I get more creatures out of it) seems like a waste of resources, especially because the only way they can contribute is by lucky rolls.

First of all, what is your natures bond? For this kind of game with a dm that obviously likes to stretch the party you should have gone with an animal companion in barding armor that has good combat options. In which case you can spend a lot of your time letting your tiger or what have you do your work for you.

Second, you are missing the point of summon spells. They are as much control spells as anything else. If an enemy spends 2 turns attacking your summoned creature instead of you or your allies, that IS a contribution. THey can provide flanking bonuses to your combat oriented allies (a +2 is nothing to ignore, particularly at 5th level, and if theres a rogue they will love it. You can also close down lanes of movement with the right summons with careful placement and consideration. One summon can have more of an impact then 3-4 other instantaneous spells even if it never does a single hit point of damage to the enemy.

I would also ask what your physical stats are like? You said without buffs you cant really make the best use of wild shape, why? Again, given the nature of the campaign, you should be going for a more combat oriented druid then a casting focused one. If you have low physical stats, well theres your problem. Wild shape should be 5 hours of at least mild contribution to every encounter per day all on its own.

I chose the Fire Domain as the Nature Bond, partly for thematic reasons, but also partly because I wanted some blasting (because aside from Flame Strike, Druids can't do crap for blasting), and stuff like Fireball is great for that; I'm our only full spellcaster, meaning I'm the only one with access to 3rd level spells currently, so having to fill the shoes of both a Divine and an Arcane full spellcaster is a very arduous task.

I considered an animal companion, but to be honest it's a lot of work, I'm not particularly familiar with their rules, and on its surface, they fall off very fast. If anything, right now they're at their strongest, but in the coming levels, they will become extremely weak, and really only serve the same role as a summoned creature.

That tactic would work with stupid or animal-like enemies, but smart enemies would realize how pointless and weak they are and simply ignore them after maybe the first round. Sure, flanking is nice, that's why I try to set them up to get a Pouncing Flank, the burst damage on that, presuming some decent rolls, is pretty high. In our hardest encounter, I actually did ~70 points of damage in total between my summoned creatures in a single round on one enemy, and came very close to killing it outright.

My physical statistics aren't that great since I actually originally planned to build a sort of summoner type of character, but didn't realize that SNA is a crappy, ghetto version of SM. I am at a 16 Strength (it's 14, but with ABP at a rate of Level + 1, I get the +2 Enhancement bonus). With a Medium-sized Wildshape, that becomes an 18 Strength. I also acquired the Barbarian VMC and am able to apply the UCBarbarian Rage (which at this point in time is actually better for me), granting an extra +2 to attack and damage for those moments when casting spells is useless or isn't necessary, Elemental Assault through extra Race Points allows me to add 1D6 Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire damage to all of my attacks, and I use Power Attack, which is at a -2/+4 rate [we are actually 6th level, I took a dip in UCMonk for better Wildshape survivability by adding my Wisdom bonus of +5 to my AC at all times over my crappy armor].

Unfortunately, my to-hit actually sucks, and as much as I'd like to remove Power Attack, I need the damage it provides, especially against enemies who have DR. Presuming my Deinonychus form, I have 5 attacks, with 3 Primaries. My total BAB is 4 Base + 4 Strength + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement - 2 Power Attack = +9 to hit for my primaries, +4 to hit with my secondaries. Most enemies at 6th level that we've faced so far usually have ~24 AC, which is difficult for me to hit (and all of us, except our tank, is 3/4 BAB).

Presuming I hit, I have 1D3/1D6/1D8, depending on method of attack (1.5, 3.5, or 4.5), +4/2 Strength, +2 Rage, +4/2 Power Attack, +1 Enhancement, and 1D6 (3.5) Elemental Assault. This totals in an average output of 18/19 damage per Primary attack hit, or 12 damage per Secondary attack hit. Presuming they all hit (highly unlikely, but I've come close before), I'm dealing ~ 80 points of damage per round, which is pretty ridiculous considering that I don't have an optimized Strength, nor do I have access to Dragon Ferocity and Feral Combat Training, which would allow me to apply 1.5x Strength to my Natural Attacks (a plan that I just might pursue later down the road). Enemies with DR 10 or Resistances (which seem to be becoming commonplace) reduce that damage to 8/9 or 2, perhaps even less than that, which isn't much, even when they have average hit dice (and we have 3/4 Hit Dice).

The problem I have with Wild Shape as of right now, is that I only have one use of it. The duration is decent and good to last over the course of a few encounters, but it's not all-day, and I don't know how long we're going to be in this dungeon (if we plan to rest, the 5 hours that I have with Wild Shape won't last long enough to be relevant if we're ambushed), so I'd rather not waste it during the day, even if we could use it, when we're ambushed with low HP, when we'd need it.


MeanMutton wrote:
With all the various options out there for casters, I tend to always be able to have plenty of spells, scrolls, potions, wands, etc., to be fully productive all day every day.

The irony is that we actually got two scrolls so far during our adventures, one of Spiritual Weapon, and one of Remove Curse. Neither of those spells are on any of our character's spell list, so we gave them to our highest UMD character in the party; the Alchemist.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

I chose the Fire Domain as the Nature Bond, partly for thematic reasons, but also partly because I wanted some blasting (because aside from Flame Strike, Druids can't do crap for blasting), and stuff like Fireball is great for that; I'm our only full spellcaster, meaning I'm the only one with access to 3rd level spells currently, so having to fill the shoes of both a Divine and an Arcane full spellcaster is a very arduous task.

If you are worried about conserving spells over long dungeons blasting is an ATROCIOUS route to take. If you can ask your dm to undo this choice do it or ask about retraining it. Even if you want to go with a domain instead of a companion (which given all your cocerns you shouldn't) Fireball is literally the least efficient thing you can do with a 3rd level spell if you are worried about resources. Particularly if you are the only caster, your spells need to have more impact then that.

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I considered an animal companion, but to be honest it's a lot of work, I'm not particularly familiar with their rules, and on its surface, they fall off very fast. If anything, right now they're at their strongest, but in the coming levels, they will become extremely weak, and really only serve the same role as a summoned creature.

This is rather inaccurate. Animal companions with proper equipment (at low levels this is barding, at higher levels it means an amulet of mighty fists and magic barding) hold up just fine so long as you pick the right one. In particular, the Big cat or the Deinonychus are quite effective.

Remember when you get higher level you will have more spells to buff the companion (and yourself). Those buffs are dramatically more efficient and resource saving then blasting spells. Up and until levels 14-16, the right animal companion with the right equipment and feats is not weak. Its quite good actually.

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That tactic would work with stupid or animal-like enemies, but smart enemies would realize how pointless and weak they are and simply ignore them after maybe the first round. Sure, flanking is nice, that's why I try to set them up to get a Pouncing Flank, the burst damage on that, presuming some decent rolls, is pretty high. In our hardest encounter, I actually did ~70 points of damage in total between my summoned creatures in a single round on one enemy, and came very close to killing it outright.

So first of all, even if they aren't a massive threat, just being physically there in the opponents way is important. Even if the enemy attacks them once, and then they are just an obstacle and flanking buddy, that is a good use of a spell slot. Partiuclarly if with things like flanking bonuses of their own they actually get a few hits in. With just augment summoning, they are serviceable at least until you get to mid levels where you have more spells per day to work with.

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My physical statistics aren't that great since I actually originally planned to build a sort of summoner type of character, but didn't realize that SNA is a crappy, ghetto version of SM. I am at a 16 Strength (it's 14, but with ABP at a rate of Level + 1, I get the +2 Enhancement bonus). With a Medium-sized Wildshape, that becomes an 18 Strength. I also acquired the Barbarian VMC and am able to apply the UCBarbarian Rage (which at this point in time is actually better for me), granting an extra +2 to attack and damage for those moments when casting spells is useless or isn't necessary, Elemental Assault through extra Race Points allows me to add 1D6 Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire damage to all of my attacks, and I use Power Attack, which is at a -2/+4 rate [we are actually 6th level, I took a dip in UCMonk for better Wildshape survivability by adding my Wisdom bonus of +5 to my AC at all times over my crappy armor].

Unfortunately, my to-hit actually sucks, and as much as I'd like to remove Power Attack, I need the damage it provides, especially against enemies who have DR. Presuming my Deinonychus form, I have 5 attacks, with 3 Primaries. My total BAB is 4 Base + 4 Strength + 2 Rage + 1 Enhancement - 2 Power Attack = +9 to hit for my primaries, +4 to hit with my secondaries. Most enemies at 6th level that we've faced so far usually have ~24 AC, which is difficult for me to hit (and all of us, except our tank, is 3/4 BAB).

Presuming I hit, I have 1D3/1D6/1D8, depending on method of attack (1.5, 3.5, or 4.5), +4/2 Strength, +2 Rage, +4/2 Power Attack, +1 Enhancement, and 1D6 (3.5) Elemental Assault. This totals in an average output of 18/19 damage per Primary attack hit, or 12 damage per Secondary attack hit. Presuming they all hit (highly unlikely, but I've come close before), I'm dealing ~ 80 points of damage per round, which is pretty ridiculous considering that I don't have an optimized Strength, nor do I have access to Dragon Ferocity and Feral Combat Training, which would allow me to apply 1.5x Strength to my Natural Attacks (a plan that I just might pursue later down the road). Enemies with DR 10 or Resistances (which seem to be becoming commonplace) reduce that damage to 8/9 or 2, perhaps even less than that, which isn't much, even when they have average hit dice (and we have 3/4 Hit Dice).

The problem I have with Wild Shape as of right now, is that I only have one use of it. The duration is decent and good to last over the course of a few encounters, but it's not all-day, and I don't know how long we're going to be in this dungeon (if we plan to rest, the 5 hours that I have with Wild Shape won't last long enough to be relevant if we're ambushed), so I'd rather not waste it during the day, even if we could use it, when we're ambushed with low HP, when we'd need it.

So first of all, I understand wanting big damage numbers, but if you are worried about hitting don't always use power attack. If you are facing opponents with consistently high AC (24 is high for 5th level characters) STOP USING IT. More damage doesn't mean anything if you miss all the time. And remember this should only be PART of your contribution. If you do 50-60 damage and your companion does 40-50 damage, that adds up.

And while 5 hours isn't forever its a long time. Its more then 1/3 of your adventuring day and should cover at least a couple encounters. And for the others, you can use more of your available spells. But wild shaping as your first action of the first serious seeming fight of the day is a very good idea most of the time. Even if there are lots of encounters, it usually doesn't require more then 8 hours of in game time. And if the encounters are spaced out by the miles required to make a longer day feasible (meaning hours of travel between encounters) then you can probably rest at some point.


What is the access to equipment?

The items that would help you most:

Someone getting a Menacing weapon of some sort (great on a animal companion if you can retrain)

Druid Vestment. Once you have a second transformation you can turn back without losing the ability for the day. This will allow you to turn back before long stretches of traveling.

Pearl of Power or Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism.

Spell Use to Maximize Effect.

My thoughts on conserving spells is 2 fold. Get the maximum effect and use a no more than 2 per fight. Than throw everything at a really tough fight This is also where you burn your 3rd level spell.

Wand of Mudball is your spam wand.

Faerie Fire + Obscuring mist is amazing (wand or stored on the Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism) best when cast by someone else on turn one. If people have reach weapons this is even better.

Burst of radiance will give several round of effect.

Vine Strike is an excellent way to boost damage and control casters.

Stone Call in potent in open fields. It tends to stagger when opponents reach you.

Frigid Touch shuts down a single opponent with multiple attacks. It's basically save or lose for something that's cr is based on 4 attacks on a full attack.

Flaming Sphere is a decent blast at this level that provides some battlefield control in tight spaces and stays around a whole fight. It often does more damage than a summon.

Mad monkey will also be better than a lot of SNA at this level.

A well timed air geyser can do a lot of damage and leave a character prone. It's not the first spell to take at this level but its pretty good. It also targets reflex which is nice.

Animal Companion

If you don't want an animal companion to drop off as much at higher levels Bodyguard and In Harm's Way make it an extra sack of HP. Spreading damage out in this way helps immensely.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

Well, summoning helps here. Round 1: Summon Giant Frogs (or whatever). Round 2 find cover and lie down (+8AC v ranged attacks) Round 3: Take a 6 second nap. Round 4: Complain about how long the fight is. Round 5: Repeat 1-4.

The sad thing is, I actually have all of the Summon feats, up to and including Superior Summoning (+1 to the number of monsters you summon). I have certainly used them (or at least tried, 1 Round casting time can bite if I'm in the wrong position) in combat before, and they are good as distractions, soaking up damage, or even dealing damage if they can feasibly hit their target.

But to be honest, as a Druid, SNA has a very crappy summon list; unless you get something with good to-hit and Pounce, or something that has very high AC or some special attack ability (i.e. Elementals), it's just....ehhh...

Now, if I had access to Summon Monster, that'd be a whole different story; there are better creatures to summon (and better feats to select and synergize with it, such as Evolved Summon Monster), meaning I would have much more utility and my spell power would be infinitely more valuable since my ability to summon potent creatures reduces the necessity for increased expenditures.

Besides the casting time, the inefficient creature list, and the lack of further investments, the other big problem is that summoning creatures that are worthwhile take a lot of my Spell Power. Being a 5th level Druid, Summon Monster III costs 25% of my Spell Power for the day, and summoning anything less (even if I get more creatures out of it) seems like a waste of resources, especially because the only way they can contribute is by lucky rolls.

Ah, didn't notice spell points...sorry. Not totally sure how that works. But with SNA I and II there are some gems hidden in there. Stirge will waste an enemy's action more reliably than most save-or-suck spells, and if they ignore it then you do CON damage. Worker Ant was a genuine surprise when I looked at it, doing solid damage and maintaining a relatively decent AC.

Also, noticing the Fire Domain, that domain power is designed to save spell power. D6+2 damage isn't very attractive, but against AC 24, probably with a much lower touch, it might be more reliable than melee at this level. Don't try it on the boss, but smallet fights it can be a good way to contribute.

Sovereign Court

Chess Pwn wrote:
don't heal people. Tell them your spells are worth more than some HP. That way you have more spells up and don't need to use them all for healing.

While true in a normal game - those are games with cure light wands.


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At a certain point in combat the fight is effectively over. That is when you stop casting spells. Some people insist on casting spells every round. When you are at a low level that is not a good idea at all. Grab a crossbow or use a cantrip, but don't waste slot/points.


Bump for a bit of an update.

We completely cleared the first floor, and are now going to advance to the second. The GM gave us a level-up (to 7), and states that at the start of each floor, we'll be at full HP and character resources, so this means that I can go a little more hardcore and smarter than I originally have been.

@ Kolokotroni: Again, I'm our only full spellcaster. Granted, our Alchemist and Magus have just gained 3rd level spells, we still need some better overall AoE blast power. We just fought a couple flying Scorpion Swarms, and the only reason I was able to trivialize that fight was because of the Domain Fireball spell I had; the Animal Companion would've been pretty damn useless there, and the Alchemist would've taken forever.

There really isn't a lot of buff spells that a Druid gets. Like, Barkskin and maybe GMF are all we get, and with ABP, those spells become damn useless. Maybe there are other spells to buff that are obscure (Longstrider, maybe?), but they're not worth the spell power or the action economy half the time when our Alchemist with Infusions can do that more efficiently with his Expeditious Retreat extracts and the like. (Seriously, daddy wants Divine Favor, Heroism, etc.)

As I've said before, smart enemies will find a way to simply ignore/undermine them through tactical movement. It might work for the moron enemies, but against others...ehhh...

The damage does cause an issue if I'm fighting enemies with DR. We've fought 3 enemies who have had DR in the dungeon so far, and with DR 10+, I won't be doing any damage. If the enemies have Resistance, my Elemental Assault won't be doing any damage either, which I use to supplement my damage per hit, and with 5 attacks...well, that's a lot of damage I'm missing out on. Unfortunately, if only there was a way to reduce/bypass DR/Resistance, as this will be my biggest counter.


It's not entirely sure this works but I will suggest it anyway.
A Furyborn amulet of might fist should help with DR. It may take a round or 2 to get to +5 enchantment but with multiple attacks you will get there and overcome DR.

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