Wis Mod instead of Int Mod for Skill Points per level


Homebrew and House Rules

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Basically the title.

To calculate the number of skill points per level it's the class you take for that level's skill points plus your Wisdom Modifier rather than your Intelligence Modifier. This would be a houserule to apply to new games.

Rationale...

Intelligence is a reflection mostly of academic intellect; knowledge, appraise of objects, knowledge of divine and arcane spells (spellcraft) though Craft is still relatively practical. While the Wisdom Based skills suggests that Wisdom is more practical intelligence, Survival checks, Sense motive. A person who is more Wise is much practial minded, wouldn't he have more skills? Why is a bookworm like a Wizard better at Acrobatics than a Fighter? Because the Wizard has higher Int, so more skill ranks.

Another rationale is almost no one dumps Wisdom. Some let it go low, others can pump it up really high but the Class's allocated Skill Ranks Per Level is far more representative as you don't have things going so wild in terms of Wizards having as many Skill ranks per level as a Rogue.

Problems!

Well Int TRULY becomes a dump stat, if you aren't crafting, you're very safely dumping it. But I'd argue that's already being done anyway, on so many point buys even for Fighters who have only 2 skill points they will very often let Int drop as low as 7 and limp along with 1 skill point per level. Maybe it will go to 8 and on very high point buys, who knows.

This can lead to a situation where the party is all extremely ignorant. For them to reliably succeed DC10 knowledge checks they'd need chronicles to grant the +2 circumstance bonus. Crafting remains deeply unlikely as almost no one will have synergistic ability score to make remotely good headway.

Solutions?
Int based classes like Wizard will still be really powerful, they will find it harder to max out the skill ranks that they really benefit from maxing out like get 5 ranks in fly so they can walk over water with ease with Air Step. They just won't be able to do everything better than anyone else. And with int based PCs around, the ENTIRE party shouldn't be clueless, in fact they may be wise enough to ask the highly intelligent scholar to enlighten them on something they don't naturally know.

http://i.imgur.com/3mzx7l2.jpg

Also many feats still have minimum int requirements. And not even of Int 10 but Int 13. Now Fighter's Stamina Pool variant rules are nice for this as for almost every single combat feat that has a minimum Int prerequisite it says you can take that feat despite not meeting prerequisite int level. But you must have at least one point in your stamina pool or else the feat and feat chain from it collapse. That's all fine and good for Fighters but it's not like they are the only relevant class for that.

And crafting wasn't being used anyway as it took a ridiculous amount of time to be able to craft anything worth having even with high Int scores.


Terrible idea.
Wis is already the best mental stat due to having will saves keyed to it.
This would make Int as bad as Cha, leaving two stats 100% dumpable for everyone who doesn't have class features tied to them, while Wis becomed the unmatched god stat of mental stats.


Mashallah wrote:

Terrible idea.

Wis is already the best mental stat due to having will saves keyed to it.
This would make Int as bad as Cha, leaving two stats 100% dumpable for everyone who doesn't have class features tied to them, while Wis becomed the unmatched god stat of mental stats.

So like Dex then.

EDIT: okay not JUST like dex, you can't dump Con as much and there are technically some consequences for dumping strength that you have to work around (agile weapons, dervish dance, crossbow ant haul and so on).


I've seen a couple of threads on the subject, and the middle ground is to allow players to choose which one of the two stats will apply.

A wizard chooses int.

The cleric chooses wis.


Wonderstell wrote:

I've seen a couple of threads on the subject, and the middle ground is to allow players to choose which one of the two stats will apply.

A wizard chooses int.

The cleric chooses wis.

It's interesting on every class description it doesn't simply says "Base Skill Ranks Per Level" but says

Skill Ranks Per Level: X + Int modifier.

Almost as if it could vary by class.

Cleric is probably in most need of something like this. They shouldn't be dumping Charisma since they need it for channel energy, though the Master Strategist Archetype ain't so bad. That's an example of how things can be complicated in terms of Charisma ALWAYS being a dump stat. And poor Sorcerers.

I like sorcerers to build as NPC classes but they are a really tedious build and fall way too far behind and give too much up for spontaneous casting.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

All classes recieve a minimum of 4+ skill ranks per level.

There, we can all go home.


I think it could easily be a feature of clerics, but not a general fit for the game. An overall shift would make INT useless for many classes-and INT makes sense as the genesis of skills.


Johnnycat93 wrote:

All classes recieve a minimum of 4+ skill ranks per level.

There, we can all go home.

Wait do you mean at least 4 skill ranks per level + IntMod ?

Or whatever their negative IntMod may be it can never dip the overall skill ranks per level below 4, an expansion on the rule of how you always get at least 1 skill rank per level?


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:

All classes recieve a minimum of 4+ skill ranks per level.

There, we can all go home.

Wait do you mean at least 4 skill ranks per level + IntMod ?

Or whatever their negative IntMod may be it can never dip the overall skill ranks per level below 4, an expansion on the rule of how you always get at least 1 skill rank per level?

The former.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:


1) Another rationale is almost no one dumps Wisdom.

2)Wizards having as many Skill ranks per level as a Rogue.

3) I'd argue that's already being done anyway, on so many point buys even for Fighters who have only 2 skill points they will very often let Int drop as low as 7 and limp along with 1 skill point per level. Maybe it will go to 8 and on very high point buys, who knows.

4) This can lead to a situation where the party is all extremely ignorant.

5)Int based classes like Wizard will still be really powerful, they will find it harder to max out the skill ranks...

6)And with int based PCs around, the ENTIRE party shouldn't be clueless, in fact they may be wise enough to ask the highly intelligent scholar to enlighten them on something they don't naturally know.

7)And crafting wasn't being used anyway as it took a ridiculous amount of time to be able to craft anything worth having even with high Int scores.

1) Is this a problem? Since everybody already thinks that investing/not dumping Wis is worth it, why does it need more reasons?

2) Is the problem that Wizards have as many skill ranks as Rogues? In that case, nerf the Wizard. Don't move the problem over to the Inquisitor instead (it has 6 skill ranks to start and is also Wis based. A 16 Wis Inquisitor would gain as many skill ranks per level as a 24 Int Wizard does now).

3) Is this a problem? If that's the case, give people more reason to invest in Int, not in Wis. If it's not a problem, it's also not a problem that people ignore skill ranks for other Ability Scores.

4)They still are now if they don't have an Int based character. Nothing gets better if you remove an attractive advantage from the Int based classes.

5) Again: you only changed what classes who gets the most skill ranks. How is this a solution to anything?

6) This is already the case. As you said, Fighters are already dumping Int, yet the party survives, because there's someone else who invested in Int.

7) Really? You know this for a fact? I can tell you that you're wrong. You can't just swat away a problem and call it a solution.

The main problem with changing from Int to Wis in this case is simply that you make Int more pointless and Wis more of a must have.
If you want to cater to your players/yourself and allow them to keep dumping Int while holding their Wis up and still gain skill ranks, go ahead. Otherwise it's a terrible idea.


I think Intelligence for skills is there for a reason. Intelligence is a measure of one's mental acuity. A higher capacity for learning. That's why it's used to measure bonus skills. You need the ability to learn those skills. Wisdom doesn't really affect your ability to pick up new talents or skills, it measures your practical thought. Your experiences in life. Hence why the more 'worldly' skills (such as perception, or survival) use it as a modifier. One can be smart and study things, but lack the capacity to be observant. On the flip side, you can be the most observant person around, and still have difficulty picking up new skills.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.


Rub-Eta wrote:


1) Is this a problem? Since everybody already thinks that investing/not dumping Wis is worth it, why does it need more reasons?

2) Is the problem that Wizards have as many skill ranks as Rogues? In that case, nerf the Wizard. Don't move the problem over to the Inquisitor instead (it has 6 skill ranks to start and is also Wis based. A 16 Wis Inquisitor would gain as many skill ranks per level as a 24 Int Wizard does now).

3) Is this a problem? If that's the case, give people more reason to invest in Int, not in Wis. If it's not a problem, it's also not a problem that people ignore skill ranks for other Ability Scores.

4)They still are now if they don't have an Int based character. Nothing gets better if you remove an attractive advantage from the Int based classes.

5) Again: you only changed what classes who gets the most skill ranks. How is this a solution to anything?

6) This is already the case. As you said, Fighters are already dumping Int, yet the party survives, because there's someone else who invested in Int.

7)...

"In that case, nerf the Wizard."

How?

One way to nerf them is to take away their IntMod for bonus to Skill Ranks.

It IS a problem of some degree that Fighter has so few skill ranks to invest. And it's no good to try to get Fighters to invest more in Int, that's a zero sum game, to bring Int up to just 12 from Int7 that's increasing point buy by 6 points! Everyone knows you can't have high everywhere. Fighrter has enough plates to keep spinning without devising 'rewards' for high int that don't just end up becoming pre-requisite taxes. For example Combat Expertise's Int requirement doesn't really make Int more valuable it simply makes Combat Expertise less desirable.

Int-based classes such as Wizard is still VERY attractive as a class, just not taking the mickey with Skill ranks. Who needs good acrobatics and climb checks when you can go invisible, fly or transform into a bird.

"Again: you only changed what classes who gets the most skill ranks. How is this a solution to anything?"

No I didn't. It also changes the classes who are getting the lowest skill ranks because they had to dump Int to get many other ability scores up to respectable levels.

"As you said, Fighters are already dumping Int, yet the party survives, because there's someone else who invested in Int."

I don't understand. A wizard can share the results of knowledge and appraise checks. But a Wizard cannot share skill ranks that they got from high int. That's where party members DIE, where they can't jump a gap as they have terrible to no ranks in acrobatics.

And yes, it is a fact that Crafting takes an EXTREMELY long time in Pathfinder AND none of my PCs were bothering with it.

" You can't just swat away a problem and call it a solution."

Yeah, I supposed it's not really a 'solution' to say it was already broken and I'm not breaking it any more. But I'd still say it is addressing the problem as not really being a problem, with my proposal.

"you make Int more pointless and Wis more of a must have. "

In the last session I ran, every single character other than the Wizard had their Int dumped to the lowest possible level. Point buy 15.

And Wisdom IS a must have, it's for your will save and perception. Those are so vital. Sense Motive comes up all the time in Role-Play. Survival check is such a great catch all.

"If you want to cater to your players/yourself and allow them to keep dumping Int while holding their Wis up and still gain skill ranks, go ahead. Otherwise it's a terrible idea."

What is the otherwise?

Why would a rogue not dump Int? The only people who aren't dumping Int are the resident OP classes like Wizard.

Lack of skill points are cutting into games enjoyments as actions other than the usual attack-attack-attack aren't viable.


So the REAL problem is that characters gets to few skill ranks? Just give everyone more of them and tell everyone at your table to stop dumping Int.

Martials don't need to dump Int and bump Str/Dex/Con to its max to be competent martials. Sure, they're on a budget when it comes to point-buy, but if you think that it's too low for a martial to afford any Int to have other ability scores up to respectable levels, consider playing with a higher point-buy (switching from 15 to 20 means a difference of 7 to 10 or 10 to 14 Int).

I really don't see why anybody would ever attempt to jump a gap they wheren't conviced they would manage, unless they want their character dead. I really don't see it ever being the only option in any situation.

The fact that your players haven't touch crafting yet does not mean that they'd never do it. Maybe you shouldn't discourage it in the future? You can also look into ways to help them accelerate the crafting process.

Even if you don't agree with me, there is nothing that switching Int for Wis in this regard can solve better than just giving more skill ranks to everyone (or at least those who aren't Int based already). It would, however, polaris the usability of the two Ability Scores even more than it alrady is (as you've noted as well).

TL;DR: My advice would be to have a talk with your players and their build habits, test a 20-point buy, bump every non-Int-based class to at least 4+Int skill ranks per level and that you also take a look at the background skills rules from Unchained. This will probably solve every problem you've expressed with much more grace than switching the keyed stat.


Alternatively, just make everyone gain skill points per level equal to their class base, plus int modifier, plus wis modifier, and plus cha modifier. Suddenly, no more mental dump stat.

I never dump int, but if that's a problem for you, maybe more skill points wouldn't break the game, especially if it discourages dumping a 7 on cha (and int?).


Cyrad wrote:
The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.

I'm just saying if the concern was "they are going to dump int as low as they possibly can" well... they already are. It's not actually creating a new problem.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.
I'm just saying if the concern was "they are going to dump int as low as they possibly can" well... they already are. It's not actually creating a new problem.

The solution is talking to them, not reinforcing bad habits and wrecking the balance.


Really, just let characters choose which mental stat boosts skill points and which mental stat boosts will saves (and make sure they're different stats.) It gives a minor power boost to charisma based classes while letting mundane classes dump whichever stat they feel fits their character.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.
I'm just saying if the concern was "they are going to dump int as low as they possibly can" well... they already are. It's not actually creating a new problem.

Even in that case, it can create problems. For example, if a player makes a new character or a new player joins your game. In game design, you generally don't want to make a big change that affects the game on a fundamental level when you're looking to accomplish something that is much smaller in scope. If you want your players to have more skill points, then give them more skill points. Don't overcomplicate the solution.

If your players don't care about the consequences of having a low Intelligence, that's their decision. Let them live with the trade-offs they made with that decision. It's not wise to reward their min-maxing.

Lantern Lodge

Still not 100% sure what the problem we are trying to solve is. Is it lack of skill points? Or that wizards are so all-powerful? Given that removing a few skill ranks isn't going to change the wizards being all powerful problem, I'm going to assume it is lack of skill ranks.

So some solutions
1: House rule that you can't dump int to below 10 (or below 9 or whatever)
2: Use background skill ranks from unchained (essentially you get an extra two skill ranks a level but use them on non adventure centric skills)
3: Give people more than a 15 point build
4: Make up a new feat that gives everyone an extra skill rank per level
5: House rule an additional 1 or 2 or 3 skill points per level for everyone.
6: Start putting some RP penalties on characters who have dumped INT
7: put in some uses for INT based skills (codes that makes linguistics useful) - so they don't see INT as a dump stat.

These are all much easier alternatives than moving the bonus skill points away from INT.

The corollary of the post is pretty much "Why bother with int as a stat, lets just get rid of it. Wizards could use Cha or Wis instead."

Actually going back to my list above, if you put 1 and 3 together - disallow INT dumping, but give everyone extra build points, then I think your basic problem would be solved. Characters would have an extra 2 skill points per level, and the rest of their stats would stay pretty much the same as they are today. a 7 INT gives you 4 build points after all.


Goblin_Priest wrote:

Alternatively, just make everyone gain skill points per level equal to their class base, plus int modifier, plus wis modifier, and plus cha modifier. Suddenly, no more mental dump stat.

I never dump int, but if that's a problem for you, maybe more skill points wouldn't break the game, especially if it discourages dumping a 7 on cha (and int?).

That's more complicated, even less thematically consistent (charisma means more ranks for climbing?) and still doesn't redress how too many classes have too few skill points.

I'm getting the impression that you and a lot of others are all talking around the idea that the problem is any of the mental stats being dumped and that's a principal concern. But no one is really dealing with it head on.

I think we have ended up putting the cart before the horse, we are now belatedly trying to use skill-ranks bonuses to bully (mostly non-caster) classes into nerfing their core stats for skill points when that didn't work when it was just Int, they need Strength, Dex and Wisdom. That just means their overall skill ranks per level is going to be even further into the negative which is moot as it still bottoms out at 1 skill rank per level no matter what.

Skills are so important for role playing games, combat is always going to be so hugely important but skill checks are so vital for almost every other interaction with the game world. It would already be enough of the Wizard show simply from their obvious advantage in appraise, knowledge and spellcraft checks.


Mashallah wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.
I'm just saying if the concern was "they are going to dump int as low as they possibly can" well... they already are. It's not actually creating a new problem.
The solution is talking to them, not reinforcing bad habits and wrecking the balance.

I have talked to them and the conclusion we all come to, even the Wizard-mains, is that the system is unfair and should be changed.

It's not a solution to bully, cajole or threaten them (which I think is what you mean by "talk to them" just to make them do something they have every right and reason to not want to do) to make their characters weaker by nerfing everything else to get positive int and still be short in skill ranks. It's not even a bad habit to have low int, they have low int because it's obviously the lesser evil. Why the hell do they have to be so good at appraise and knowledge checks when they'd never do it in combat but let the party wizard or magus look at it.

And they can suck up the poor skill ranks as they need the ranks in Point Buy for other far more critical stats.

The balance is wrecked whether they dump int or nerf everything else to get a pitifully low int.

I understand very clearly you don't want this change to happen. But when you give such inadequate rationale it makes the alternative to your approach seem ideal. When you call necessary measures to stay closely in standards as "bad habits" it only has the opposite effect. It's like an (unintentional) 'Modest Proposal' in the flavour of Jonathan Swift's famous satire.


Mashallah wrote:

Terrible idea.

Wis is already the best mental stat due to having will saves keyed to it.
This would make Int as bad as Cha, leaving two stats 100% dumpable for everyone who doesn't have class features tied to them, while Wis becomed the unmatched god stat of mental stats.

I believe you hit it on the head immediately. The OP's suggestion would make Int completely dumpable, freeing up points for more fun stuff like Dex and Wis with no penalty. It is brilliant!


GM Aerondor wrote:

Still not 100% sure what the problem we are trying to solve is. Is it lack of skill points? Or that wizards are so all-powerful? Given that removing a few skill ranks isn't going to change the wizards being all powerful problem, I'm going to assume it is lack of skill ranks.

So some solutions
1: House rule that you can't dump int to below 10 (or below 9 or whatever)
2: Use background skill ranks from unchained (essentially you get an extra two skill ranks a level but use them on non adventure centric skills)
3: Give people more than a 15 point build
4: Make up a new feat that gives everyone an extra skill rank per level
5: House rule an additional 1 or 2 or 3 skill points per level for everyone.
6: Start putting some RP penalties on characters who have dumped INT
7: put in some uses for INT based skills (codes that makes linguistics useful) - so they don't see INT as a dump stat.

These are all much easier alternatives than moving the bonus skill points away from INT.

The corollary of the post is pretty much "Why bother with int as a stat, lets just get rid of it. Wizards could use Cha or Wis instead."

Actually going back to my list above, if you put 1 and 3 together - disallow INT dumping, but give everyone extra build points, then I think your basic problem would be solved. Characters would have an extra 2 skill points per level, and the rest of their stats would stay pretty much the same as they are today. a 7 INT gives you 4 build points after all.

Mainly lack of skill points.

Wizard isn't really any less game-bendingly powerful for only 2-3 skill ranks per level.

"1: House rule that you can't dump int to below 10 (or below 9 or whatever)"

That is a nerf to non-casters and still makes a pitiful dent in the problem. The last place people want such tedious rules is as they are fiddling with point buy such an obtuse diktat. It's even more invasive and disruptive ruling yet hurts non-casters and is a huge boon for int-based casters.

"Use background skill ranks from unchained"

Thanks for the tip, I will use that along with this and it's great for everyone to be able to put 2-ranks per level (never more or less) into a selection of the most neglected skills. But they were neglected for a reason, because they had so little impact on game balance and were mostly aides to character development.

"Give people more than a 15 point build"

it doesn't work, because as point buy goes up, CR of enemies goes up, they prioritise Dex, Con and Wis, as you should, these keep you alive, these stop you from being crushed, for a fighter the change in int at most results in them now getting 2 skill ranks per level rather than only 1 which is still too damn low.

By comparison, last time I was on point buy 25 the wizard was able to get strength pretty good which meant they felt better giving themselves magical buffs rather than being a team player. When Wizard had to dump strength he was never going to consider trying to go all composite longbow.

" Make up a new feat that gives everyone an extra skill rank per level "

This is AGAIN going to leave non-casters far in disadvantage this is less than a zero-sum change they are giving up feats which have to make up for lack-of-spells to still get a paltry increase in Skill points. And again, the status quo is they have a calculated Skill ranks per level at zero or negative and it bottoms out at 1 rank, so anything spent to gain another rank isn't granting them any improvement as they're still getting 1 rank per level.

"House rule an additional 1 or 2 or 3 skill points per level for everyone."

This is treating the symptoms, not the cause. The Cause of this is int-being hugely beneficial for certain casting classes but being too divisive in importance for non-casters.

"Start putting some RP penalties on characters who have dumped INT "

That is entirely antithetical to the concern this thread has raised, it is going to entirely favour Wizards YET AGAIN. RP penalties for something like that is terrible game design, it will make character development stressful for classes like fighter who have enough plates to keep spinning in term of ability score.

"put in some uses for INT based skills (codes that makes linguistics useful) - so they don't see INT as a dump stat."

This is so biased in favour of Casters who unequivocally can have many dump stats with insignificant consequence but Fighters need to be strong everywhere and to get less out of it.

"These are all much easier alternatives than moving the bonus skill points away from INT."

They are actually all far more complicated. Just use Wis_mod for skill ranks instead of IntMod. It's that easy. Yes, classes like Inquisitor get buttloads of Skill ranks, but that would depend on anyone playing inquisitor. More importantly is Cleric isn't terrible.

"The corollary of the post is pretty much "Why bother with int as a stat, lets just get rid of it. Wizards could use Cha or Wis instead.""

As a balance for the strongest classes like Wizard who get SO MUCH from Int.

Int is also the bookworm stat, it's for academic and item knowledge. See you might actually get players talking and interacting with each other, Wizard has the Informative Intellect for knowledge checks, he's the walking wikipedia, but the Fighter-type classes have the practical skills and knowledge.

Wizards should NOT use other stats, that would again be making wizards EVEN MORE POWERFUL. Importantly it doesn't leave wizards so able to operate independently.

"Actually going back to my list above, if you put 1 and 3 together - disallow INT dumping, but give everyone extra build points, then I think your basic problem would be solved."

Greeeeeeeat, Fighter spends their extra point buy just to bring their Int up to the required amount for a trivial change to skill-ranks per level, Wizard uses their extra point-ranks to buff everywhere else where is really matters. Not only is this more complicated and less flexible but it doesn't solve the problem and bodges it with +1 sprinkling. It's easy for the GM to sprinkle +1s only at the cost of the class rules having much significance.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think it is not a problem but _exactly_ the game working as intended for the wizard to have the most skill ranks. The rogue or bard is the physical skill monkey, and the wizard is the intellectual skill monkey.

Maybe we don't play the standard way, but a character that dumped int would not fit it very well in our games, simply because their character would be awful at their class's required knowledge skills. For most classes, the expectation in our games is that they will be competent in all knowledge skills that are class skills for them. That way, the wizard can take the critical knowledge skills (which we need two party members that are good at to protect from the occasional bad roll) as well as the ones that are critical for his character.

I think what it comes down to is that if knowledge skills are important enough in your game, players won't dump int. If the cleric doesn't do well enough in knowledge religion to identify the undead enemy, someone in the party is going to get badly hurt when the bloody skeleton explodes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This would also solve the way that animal companions couldn't actually survive in the wilderness.


Redelia wrote:

I think it is not a problem but _exactly_ the game working as intended for the wizard to have the most skill ranks. The rogue or bard is the physical skill monkey, and the wizard is the intellectual skill monkey.

Maybe we don't play the standard way, but a character that dumped int would not fit it very well in our games, simply because their character would be awful at their class's required knowledge skills. For most classes, the expectation in our games is that they will be competent in all knowledge skills that are class skills for them. That way, the wizard can take the critical knowledge skills (which we need two party members that are good at to protect from the occasional bad roll) as well as the ones that are critical for his character.

I think what it comes down to is that if knowledge skills are important enough in your game, players won't dump int. If the cleric doesn't do well enough in knowledge religion to identify the undead enemy, someone in the party is going to get badly hurt when the bloody skeleton explodes.

But it's not the cleric's job to identify undead, it's the job of the wizard, bard, skald, or investigator. A cleric's job is to be a lie detector and spot hazards. Maybe they can get another skill if they're a human who didn't dump int but for the most part sense motive and perception are really the only things for a cleric and their tiny skill pool.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HyperMissingno wrote:


But it's not the cleric's job to identify undead, it's the job of the wizard, bard, skald, or investigator. A cleric's job is to be a lie detector and spot hazards. Maybe they can get another skill if they're a human who didn't dump int but for the most part sense motive and perception are really the only things for a cleric and their tiny skill pool.

I think that right here is the big difference between how we play and how groups play where it's OK to dump int. We would say that this is just as much the cleric's job as healing the party. That's why the cleric has knowledge religion as a class skill.

Perhaps this is why it always seems that clerics are so terribly short on skill points. We expect them to max out both knowledge religion and spellcraft. Our clerics usually have int at about 12 or 14, but that still doesn't leave much for other skills.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Redelia wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:


But it's not the cleric's job to identify undead, it's the job of the wizard, bard, skald, or investigator. A cleric's job is to be a lie detector and spot hazards. Maybe they can get another skill if they're a human who didn't dump int but for the most part sense motive and perception are really the only things for a cleric and their tiny skill pool.

I think that right here is the big difference between how we play and how groups play where it's OK to dump int. We would say that this is just as much the cleric's job as healing the party. That's why the cleric has knowledge religion as a class skill.

Perhaps this is why it always seems that clerics are so terribly short on skill points. We expect them to max out both knowledge religion and spellcraft. Our clerics usually have int at about 12 or 14, but that still doesn't leave much for other skills.

The problem is we usually don't have room for int on clerics. We need pretty much every other stat on them, strength for attacking, dex for initiative and ac, con for hp, wis for casting and cha for channeling.

Of course this assumes there's no oracle in the party. They need much less in terms of stats and they get 4+int in skills, so more often than not they're better than a cleric at knowledge (religion) and knowledge (planes)


No.

I'm in favor of raising skill point per level for classes, but not in favor of allowing Wisdom to be used to determine the additional modifier.

I think all non-intelligence based classes should have a minimum of 4 skill points per level, modified by int.

If this is insufficient to rebalance things the way you want you could add even more skill points per level to a class.

But I don't think you should ever get Wisdom as an additional bonus in skill points.

If anything, I'd be more in support of a new class based of the cleric/oracle which uses int as a casting stat, but not a wholesale change of adding wisdom to the amount of skill points earned.

Any class that isn't int based would dump int (as moast already dump cha) and everyone would only increase Wisdom because it would be the only mental stat that did anything.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah, we would in general say that for a casty cleric, stats are prioritized in the order:
wis, cha, int, dex, con, str
for a melee cleric:
wis, str, dex, int, con, cha

I also don't know that we've ever had anyone take sense motive. There are just far too many other skills that are more important, especially knowledge skills.

Isn't it fun how different the same rules can turn out in different groups?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This is the same person that thinks humans are underpowered and is giving them an unnecessary boost. So boosting the best mental stat seems about in-line with boosting the best race.

I imagine the next thread is going to be about allowing everyone to use Dex on attack and damage rolls, and then the thread after that wanting to know how to deal with a ridiculously OP party that can't be challenged by anything.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Mashallah wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
The rationale not only doesn't follow, but also supports why the having skill points scale with Wisdom is a bad idea since Wisdom is already valuable enough that PCs don't want to dump it. Deliberately creating a second mental dump stat in order give characters more skill points just creates more problems than you're trying to fix.
I'm just saying if the concern was "they are going to dump int as low as they possibly can" well... they already are. It's not actually creating a new problem.
The solution is talking to them, not reinforcing bad habits and wrecking the balance.

I have talked to them and the conclusion we all come to, even the Wizard-mains, is that the system is unfair and should be changed.

It's not a solution to bully, cajole or threaten them (which I think is what you mean by "talk to them" just to make them do something they have every right and reason to not want to do) to make their characters weaker by nerfing everything else to get positive int and still be short in skill ranks. It's not even a bad habit to have low int, they have low int because it's obviously the lesser evil. Why the hell do they have to be so good at appraise and knowledge checks when they'd never do it in combat but let the party wizard or magus look at it.

And they can suck up the poor skill ranks as they need the ranks in Point Buy for other far more critical stats.

The balance is wrecked whether they dump int or nerf everything else to get a pitifully low int.

I understand very clearly you don't want this change to happen. But when you give such inadequate rationale it makes the alternative to your approach seem ideal. When you call necessary measures to stay closely in standards as "bad habits" it only has the opposite effect. It's like an (unintentional) 'Modest Proposal' in the flavour of Jonathan Swift's famous satire.

Then just give all non-spellcasting classes a minimum of 4+int skill ranks per level.


Rub-Eta wrote:


6) This is already the case. As you said, Fighters are already dumping Int, yet the party survives, because there's someone else who invested in Int.

Not everyone int dumps their fighters.

It's not really that hard to get 7-8 skill points/level on a fighter. That players place such a low priority on skills is not the fault of existing game mechanics. It is player choice; maximizing every possible ounce of efficiency from combat at the expense of being unable to perform out of combat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

"Give people more than a 15 point build"

it doesn't work, because as point buy goes up, CR of enemies goes up, they prioritise Dex, Con and Wis, as you should, these keep you alive, these stop you from being crushed, for a fighter the change in int at most results in them now getting 2 skill ranks per level rather than only 1 which is still too damn low.

"As they should"...

It becomes more apparent that Mr Double does not know the game's balance. There is a lot of assumptions about how character needs to be built, how characters always are built and how characters should be built to survive and perform their role.

Ponder this: If your players chose to dump Int, didn't they also choose to not have that many skill ranks? If they do want skill ranks, why did they dump Int, isn't that very counterproductive?

Also, how is it that raising the point-buy to 20 (to open room for them to not dump Int, so that they gain more skill ranks) affects the CR but not the switching of Int and Wis as keyed stat (to also net a higher number of skill ranks)? Not having to invest in Int and instead focus on Str/Dex/Con means that their average party strength is higher, wouldn't that also result in higher CR enemies?

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

"House rule an additional 1 or 2 or 3 skill points per level for everyone."

This is treating the symptoms, not the cause. The Cause of this is int-being hugely beneficial for certain casting classes but being too divisive in importance for non-casters.

And your suggestion isn't doing the exact same thing? And Int is beneficial to ALL classes, not only certain casting classes, since it does grant everyone more skill ranks. The real cause seems to be that your players are dumping Int without realising that they're suffering because of it.

EDIT: @Snowlilly: I agree. I was just using his players as an example.


Redelia wrote:

I think it is not a problem but _exactly_ the game working as intended for the wizard to have the most skill ranks. The rogue or bard is the physical skill monkey, and the wizard is the intellectual skill monkey.

Maybe we don't play the standard way, but a character that dumped int would not fit it very well in our games, simply because their character would be awful at their class's required knowledge skills. For most classes, the expectation in our games is that they will be competent in all knowledge skills that are class skills for them. That way, the wizard can take the critical knowledge skills (which we need two party members that are good at to protect from the occasional bad roll) as well as the ones that are critical for his character.

I think what it comes down to is that if knowledge skills are important enough in your game, players won't dump int. If the cleric doesn't do well enough in knowledge religion to identify the undead enemy, someone in the party is going to get badly hurt when the bloody skeleton explodes.

Could you elaborate on this?

Because nothing in the rules says you can't take-a-10 on knowledge checks, I kind it quite reasonable to drop manuals as the effective "masterkwork tools" for a +2 to such knowledge skill checks so they can at least make DC10 checks even on int 6. So people can:
Identify mineral, stone, or metal (Dungeoneering)
Identify dangerous construction (Engineering)
Identify a creature's ethnicity or accent (Geography)
Know recent or historically significant event (History)
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations (Local)
Know current rulers and their symbols (Nobility)
Know the names of the planes (Planes)
Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy (Religion)

"For most classes, the expectation in our games is that they will be competent in all knowledge skills that are class skills for them."

This is what the Background Skills variant rules are great for.

"I think what it comes down to is that if knowledge skills are important enough in your game, players won't dump int."

If I were to make them so important that would CLEARLY favour Wizards who already had it so damn good in terms of int let alone other things. They'd have tp dump the stats that would allow them to keep pace with Wizard's balls powerful spellcasting.

You all seem to have the crazy idea you can pump up int without consequence.

Int would have to be made far FAR more valuable than knowledge checks could possibly provide for.


I understand that the major complaint is that players can't purchase all the skills they want.

This is intentional by design, you have to make choices. You can work within the budget or pay the costs to expand it. such as...

1. taking the favored level option as a skill point.

2. Taking a higher INT skill.

3. Playing a Human.

4. Taking the Lore Warden archetype if you're a fighter and want knowledge skills.

5. Choosing a class with a higher skills per level pool.

Liberty's Edge

All things considered, I'd still keep INT tied to Skill Ranks. But introduce the Background Skills from Unchained which every character gets 2 ranks for each level.

  • Appraise
  • Artistry
  • Craft
  • Handle Animal
  • Knowledge (engineering)
  • Knowledge (geography)
  • Knowledge (history)
  • Knowledge (nobility)
  • Linguistics
  • Lore
  • Perform
  • Profession
  • Sleight of Hand

Are all Background Skills, Background ranks can only be put in those, but regular skills ranks can ALSO be put into them (all are still capped at character level). This also frees up ranks that might be otherwise put into these, to be put into more relevant skills.
These are all skills that one might feel Wisdom would contribute to. You could consider granting extra Background Ranks for high Wisdom (1 extra for every +2 modifier maybe).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This, like your other threads, still feels like you're attempting a heavy-handed approach in order to "fix" the natural and balanced consequences of your players' playstyle.


Claxon wrote:

No.

I'm in favor of raising skill point per level for classes, but not in favor of allowing Wisdom to be used to determine the additional modifier.

... because...

Such a statement is usually followed quickly by a rationale.

"I think all non-intelligence based classes should have a minimum of 4 skill points per level, modified by int."

And who is that different? It's still targeting non-int based classes to get more skill points, the only difference is that wizards are protected where they don't even need protection. With Background Skills then Wizards are even less in need of skill ranks.

"If this is insufficient to rebalance things the way you want you could add even more skill points per level to a class."

Oh, even MORE.

"But I don't think you should ever get Wisdom as an additional bonus in skill points."

... because?

It's not like Fighters have Wis as high as Wizard's have their Int, classes that are Wis based also can't maximise Wis as the likes of Cleric have to spit their focus with Charisma and generally are heavily armour focused on AC which with armour check penalty means they need skill ranks just to bring their rolls back to base-line levels.

You aren't really addressing my reasons, the relative merits of how Int and Wis are used and whether one or the other is used for modifying Skill ranks per level.

"If anything, I'd be more in support of a new class based of the cleric/oracle which uses int as a casting stat, but not a wholesale change of adding wisdom to the amount of skill points earned."

Uhh, new classes is obviously a wholesale change. It's a fiddle where you have to go through everywhere and you have to be careful as some parts of cleric use int for some things, some domains and archetypes. I can't even remember where.

"Any class that isn't int based would dump int (as moast already dump cha) and everyone would only increase Wisdom because it would be the only mental stat that did anything."

How the hell do you get to Strength 19 while retaining decent will and reflex saves on point buy 15 without dumping both Int and Charisma. Strength 19 is key as it's an even number so efficient with two handed fighting and you can swiftly move it up to the next even StrMod around Lv5-6. Dex and Wis can be moderately high and odd numbers. So level 8 and 12 either gets a swift buff with the inherent ability score.

Int is already being dumped. The idea that it simply shouldn't be seems so totally detached from the actual mathematical realities of the rules.

While skill ranks are important to things between combat, Strength, Dex and Wisdom keep them from having to tear up their character sheet because their character is dead. This is an environment where Reflex and Will saves become so horrifically critical for actually being allowed to continue playing your character. Having int just for skill ranks is a luxury they cannot afford especially as a fighter going from Int 11 to Int7 only loses one skill point per level, yet unlocks

@Snowlilly

A fighter with 8 skill ranks per level is ridiculously costly, that's something like Int20.

" maximizing every possible ounce of efficiency from combat at the expense of being unable to perform out of combat."

Wizard currently doesn't have to make that choice, Wizard can be very good in combat and have plenty of skill ranks not to mention all their spells which help them out of combat. And they have such a high will save they can leave Wisdom at baseline and be fine, and can easily dump strength for dex.

This balance needs to be redressed, not be hand waived with Fighters using a Wizard style point buy yet without having the actual class features of a wizard to make such a point-buy viable.


Rub-Eta wrote:


Ponder this: If your players chose to dump Int, didn't they also choose to not have that many skill ranks? If they do want skill ranks, why did they dump Int, isn't that very counterproductive?

That's circular reasoning, it's like saying if a man doesn't pay for a car he chooses not to have a car, not that he doesn't want a car and wouldn't like a better balance of economics where he could afford a car. He doesn't pay for a car as if he does then he cannot eat.

Non-int based classes like Fighter don't take int not because they think it's a great option they don't have the skill points, it's just that they need the points to go into the areas that save them from devastating attacks. You want to talk about counter-productive, it's hugely core stats just to end up with half as many skill points as a Wizard who hasn't compromised their awesome combat capability which they deserve.

"Also, how is it that raising the point-buy to 20 (to open room for them to not dump Int, so that they gain more skill ranks) affects the CR but not the switching of Int and Wis as keyed stat (to also net a higher number of skill ranks)? Not having to invest in Int and instead focus on Str/Dex/Con means that their average party strength is higher, wouldn't that also result in higher CR enemies?"

Because int is already well known to be dumped as low as it can go to get the key stats of Strength, Dex and Wisdom as high as possible.

People are NOT going to waste Point Buy 20 on a paltry improvement to Skill Ranks but buff their stats which stop them dying and which they use far more often. Dex and Wis.

How can you presume they'd blow an extra 5 ranks in point buy to move their Int from 7 to 11 for almost no change for a fighter's Skill ranks instead of ticking over their wisdom and dexterity to the next level.

"And your suggestion isn't doing the exact same thing? (treating the symptoms)"

Yes, because the CAUSE of this is Int-Mod causing such huge disparity on skill points regardless of what the allocated skill ranks per level are. Treating the symptoms is seeing this obvious disparity and trying to dot post it notes everywhere on certain classes rather than a single straightforward rule to follow from the start.

"And Int is beneficial to ALL classes, not only certain casting classes, since it does grant everyone more skill ranks."

This is circular logic, int should remain the modifier for skill ranks per level because it is the modifier for skill ranks per level.

"The real cause seems to be that your players are dumping Int without realising that they're suffering because of it."

They know they are suffering for it.

They just know damn well they'd suffer MORE to do anything but to dump int. It's not damn good to just say don't dump int, that's not how this works, that's not how ANY of this works!


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I understand that the major complaint is that players can't purchase all the skills they want.

This is intentional by design

No, the major complaint is that non-wizards can't purchase enough skills to do basic things. And the likes of Wizard and Magus so clearly can because of a combination.

All those sacrifices you talk about are especially bad for the likes of Fighters but not Wizards and so on. You don't actually know it is intentional by design, it may just be a useless quirk. Those happen you know.


Do you have any already existing house rules that are related to this at all? Something involving skill points, intelligence, etc.

Your last thread made more sense once you actually gave the full context of the problem. And this thread is, so far, seems pretty similar to the last.

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

"The real cause seems to be that your players are dumping Int without realising that they're suffering because of it."

They know they are suffering for it.

They just know damn well they'd suffer MORE to do anything but to dump int. It's not damn good to just say don't dump int, that's not how this works, that's not how ANY of this works!

Are you certain this isn't just an issue of your game's playstyle causing players to value skill points less? Because it sounds like while skill challenges are present, something else is making the players worry far, far more about combat stats. That's not a system issue, that's a your game or your players issue.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

I understand that the major complaint is that players can't purchase all the skills they want.

This is intentional by design

No, the major complaint is that non-wizards can't purchase enough skills to do basic things. And the likes of Wizard and Magus so clearly can because of a combination.

All those sacrifices you talk about are especially bad for the likes of Fighters but not Wizards and so on. You don't actually know it is intentional by design, it may just be a useless quirk. Those happen you know.

This only gives Wizards an advantage in Knowledge skills for the most part, and Spellcraft which is presumed an important investment. They still lag behind Bards as knowledge junkies though.

They are not the more general class skills that the 8+Int Rogue gets. which include the social skills and the ones needed in an urban setting.


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Goblin_Priest wrote:

Alternatively, just make everyone gain skill points per level equal to their class base, plus int modifier, plus wis modifier, and plus cha modifier. Suddenly, no more mental dump stat.

I never dump int, but if that's a problem for you, maybe more skill points wouldn't break the game, especially if it discourages dumping a 7 on cha (and int?).

That's more complicated, even less thematically consistent (charisma means more ranks for climbing?) and still doesn't redress how too many classes have too few skill points.

I'm getting the impression that you and a lot of others are all talking around the idea that the problem is any of the mental stats being dumped and that's a principal concern. But no one is really dealing with it head on.

I think we have ended up putting the cart before the horse, we are now belatedly trying to use skill-ranks bonuses to bully (mostly non-caster) classes into nerfing their core stats for skill points when that didn't work when it was just Int, they need Strength, Dex and Wisdom. That just means their overall skill ranks per level is going to be even further into the negative which is moot as it still bottoms out at 1 skill rank per level no matter what.

Skills are so important for role playing games, combat is always going to be so hugely important but skill checks are so vital for almost every other interaction with the game world. It would already be enough of the Wizard show simply from their obvious advantage in appraise, knowledge and spellcraft checks.

Why bring a complicated solution to a questionnable problem? My group rarely dumps stats, I think I'm the only one whose ever really done it and it was str for a sorcerer and cha for a fighter, otherwise I actually like having skill points and never dump int...

If you really, really feel this is an issue, then... don't play pathfinder? 4E scrapped the min-maxing of skills, I think 5E did too? "trained/untrained" and leave it at that.

Because sure, having more charisma doesn't really in itself make you better at jumping... But you could see it the other way too, your athletic skills could be a component of your charisma. If you train in jumping to show off, then yea, your charisma can be tied to your jumping skills. It won't in itself make you better at jumping than anyone else who trained just as much and has equal or better strength, though.

As for your claim that summing all of their modifiers would actually grant them less skill points... what kind of characters does your group create...? Fighters with 7 int, 7 wis, and 7 cha? Please, if their characters' combined int, wis, and cha modifiers are lower than their int modifiers, they reek of cheese. And the solution to cheese isn't changing the rules...

And if your beef doesn't even have to do with dump stats, but are all about martials getting less skill points per level... homebrew it? Give them more skill points per level?


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

Basically the title.

To calculate the number of skill points per level it's the class you take for that level's skill points plus your Wisdom Modifier rather than your Intelligence Modifier. This would be a houserule to apply to new games.

Rationale...

Intelligence is a reflection mostly of academic intellect; knowledge, appraise of objects, knowledge of divine and arcane spells (spellcraft) though Craft is still relatively practical. While the Wisdom Based skills suggests that Wisdom is more practical intelligence, Survival checks, Sense motive. A person who is more Wise is much practial minded, wouldn't he have more skills? Why is a bookworm like a Wizard better at Acrobatics than a Fighter? Because the Wizard has higher Int, so more skill ranks.

Another rationale is almost no one dumps Wisdom. Some let it go low, others can pump it up really high but the Class's allocated Skill Ranks Per Level is far more representative as you don't have things going so wild in terms of Wizards having as many Skill ranks per level as a Rogue.

Add Int plus Wis scores together, divide by 2. Find modifier. DONE. You're overthinking it.

Problems!

Well Int TRULY becomes a dump stat, if you aren't crafting, you're very safely dumping it. But I'd argue that's already being done anyway, on so many point buys even for Fighters who have only 2 skill points they will very often let Int drop as low as 7 and limp along with 1 skill point per level. Maybe it will go to 8 and on very high point buys, who knows.

This can lead to a situation where the party is all extremely ignorant. For them to reliably succeed DC10 knowledge checks they'd need chronicles to grant the +2 circumstance bonus. Crafting remains deeply unlikely as almost no one will have synergistic ability score to make remotely good headway.

Solutions?
Int based classes like Wizard will still be really powerful, they will find it harder to max out the skill ranks that they really benefit from maxing out like get 5 ranks in fly so they can walk over water with ease with Air Step. They...


The way I see it, wizards need a number of skills. Knowledge arcana, Spellcraft, Knowledge planes, Fly, Linguistics at least. These are all things people rightfully expect a wizard to be good at, or things they need to function. That is five skills. With 2+Int mod per level, that is more or less all their points. I don't really see the big fuss about how they have skill points to spare. Sure, at higher levels, it gets easier, but at low levels, where skills are most useful, it isn't all that generous. Note also that the guy who spent a decade learning all sorts of things and being cooped up in a library gets only 2+Int mod per level "because he is so smart".


Just throwing my opinion out there:

I like skill based characters so it would be nice for all characters to have more skill points. Both wisdom and intelligence should contribute to skill points and will saves should be based off charisma. The way I think attributes should be defined is as follows:

Intelligence: academic talent, problem solving and ability to learn new concepts.

Wisdom: life experience and perceptiveness.

Charisma: force of personality and ability to influence others.


The Archive wrote:

Do you have any already existing house rules that are related to this at all? Something involving skill points, intelligence, etc.

Your last thread made more sense once you actually gave the full context of the problem. And this thread is, so far, seems pretty similar to the last.

Only that humans often don't get skilled but it's not for any house rule on my part but things like Dual Talent archetype being preferred.

This skill ranks disparity is not unique to my games, it is near universal problem.

One thing that has come up is that all the setups, variant rules and homebrew none of which can resolve the imbalance in Skill Ranks between classes.

"Are you certain this isn't just an issue of your game's playstyle causing players to value skill points less? Because it sounds like while skill challenges are present, something else is making the players worry far, far more about combat stats. That's not a system issue, that's a your game or your players issue."

Well we play with permadeath, which is what everyone else does. My sessions like most sessions have no easy resurrections nor do-overs. That gives a huge bias to no-dying. They KNOW they will face threats that they NEED stats other than int to survive, skills would be for options that might not be there and they could ignore.

I don't get it, I was berated endlessly and mercilessly for not giving full and absolute appreciation for how unequivocally important it is to be able to make Wis and Dex based saves. Now everyone is saying "just buff int" as if that won't inherently be at a cost in other ability scores.

So how about instead you explain how yours is different.

And please don't be vague, please be specific.

Because I can be specific.

Specifically clerics get a very raw deal in how they have to put ability-ranks everywhere except in Int and only have a base of 2 skill points per level.

Specifically Wizards will not even end up as bad off as Fighter in terms of skill ranks as even with their high will save they won't benefit from and don't even have to let wis dip as low as Int does for a fighter. Along with background skills variant rules they will remain well in utility checks and can still easily get Fly to rank-5 and so on.

Specifically Monk is well deserving of something like this as they lack so much in material advantages, they have to lean on their skills more than any other, it's good for them to be able to have the skill ranks to maximise acrobatics to make it through deep threatened areas.

Specifically Paladin will not suffer such an onerous three way split in mental stats.

So I ask you: what do you think will go wrong?

Warpriest will only be as well off as Wizard used to be in terms of Skill Ranks. Inquisitor will have the most skills but they probably need them the most for how they are trying to get intimidate, sense motive, bluff and diplomacy maximised to the point of really being useful. It's kind of their "thing".

Silver Crusade

If the core issue is "I don't like skill imbalance among the classes", then just pick a number of skill ranks per level, say 4, and every character gets that many, regardless of class or stats. Humans still get 1 more, and favored class can be used to get another.

If you still want Int to affect skills, say a modifier of -2 loses you 1 point per level, and a modifier of +2 or higher gets you 1 more point per level. At most the discrepancy is 4 points: 3 points for non-human, Int<8, FC into HP vs. 7 points for human, Int>13, FC into skills. There's still a noticeable difference if you're trying to get skill ranks, but it isn't the vast gulf between 1 rank and 8 ranks you can easily see in the current ruleset.

1 to 50 of 88 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Wis Mod instead of Int Mod for Skill Points per level All Messageboards