I don't think most paladin's can kill prisoners. IMO if they surrender or you capture them, the best you can do is leave them tied and gagged.
You could provoke them into attacking you again but otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe from harm if they pose you no direct threat.
Some Paladins can kill (some) prisoners or not take them. The Glorious Reclamation code in the first Hell's Vengeance volume includes: "I will give no quarter to devils or other servants of Hell, allies or agents of House Thrune, or champions of evil and wickedness, nor will I ask for it in return." You need to know your enemy falls in that category (I wouldn't say a random bandit is known to be a champion of evil or wickedness), but it does allow you to execute the truly bad on the spot.
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A quick sword thrust through the heart is probably a kinder death than a slit throat. And I don't see paladins having a problem with it unless they're Lawful Stupid.
You have touch of truth as a first level spell, and zone of truth as a second level spell. Past 4th level, I think you have options for doing trials and executions 'by the book'.
And that is when you are dealing with relatively light cases, like bandits. They might have only intimidated and maybe lightly hurt targets, and never went with the 'pillaging' bit.
But cultists about to rip out a child's heart to offer to a demon? Oh- your own eyes provide more than enough evidence for a summary execution.
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Yeah, Paladins can definitely do summary executions. Especially deep in the wilderness or otherwise outside the jurisdiction of any government they respect.
That said...looking for 'more entertaining' ways to do it isn't really very Paladin-like. Stick with the straightforward stuff.
- Get appointed "peacekeeper"(or somesuch) by the local authorities, and you can play judge-jury-executioner all day long.
- Get a magical item that turns people to stone, and call it a "merciful" punishment.
- Do Bleed damage, and neglect to heal.
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I'm going to make them suffer for the sins and evils they've wrought. Let them taste the fear and powerlessness they have put onto others.
Yeah - I have no problem with paladins & summary execution - but causing unnecessary pain just to torture them should lose your powers immediately and pretty quickly shift you to LN.
Now - you could take scalps, ears, or some such after they're dead. Creepy - but not really evil if you were killing them anyway.
I'm going to make them suffer for the sins and evils they've wrought. Let them taste the fear and powerlessness they have put onto others.Yeah - I have no problem with paladins & summary execution - but causing unnecessary pain just to torture them should lose your powers immediately and pretty quickly shift you to LN.
Now - you could take scalps, ears, or some such after they're dead. Creepy - but not really evil if you were killing them anyway.
Yeah...torture starts sounding LE to me. I mean... doesn't hell have 'punishing sinners for their sins' as one of its main focuses?
Really... Frank Castle is hardly LG, y'know. He is viewed as unhinged by the standards of a community that responds to personal tragedy by wearing their underwear on the outside. Even batman had to get into a fist fight with him.
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So Frank Castle is pretty far away from being LG. Probably LN on his better days. But that's neither here nor there.
If were you I'd do some research into how people through out the ages have considered Lawful and Good ways to execute prisoners. Some off the top of my head are hanging, Crucifixion, and electrocution...
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Easy way to do your research: Wikipedia on capital punishment. Obviously not all the methods discussed there, historically legal or not, will be appropriate for a paladin.
Even batman had to get into a fist fight with him.Wait... what? Batman is DC & Castle is Marvel (originally a Spiderman spin-off) - how the heck did they meet?
Punisher and Batman: Deadly Knights
I don't know how it happened copyright wise. But it did. Batman honestly has to save the joker's painted rear end from the punisher.
Admittedly, punisher might have a good point on that one. I know batman has to stand his moral ground... still... the joker...
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As a side note, why are you caring what bad guys think of your execution methods? Part of me imagines this scene:
Villain: Ha, you're too weak! You don't have the guts to do what I do!
And responses of either: 'You're right *chop*' or 'Your life is so miserable you're not worth torturing. I'll leave that for the professionals. Say "hi" to the fiends on your way in. *chop*'
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Punisher and Batman: Deadly KnightsEven batman had to get into a fist fight with him.Wait... what? Batman is DC & Castle is Marvel (originally a Spiderman spin-off) - how the heck did they meet?
Huh - go figure. Though - I do know that there were a few Marvel/DC crossovers in the 90's when Marvel was broke and DC almost bought them. (I don't even remember how I know - I don't even read many comics.)
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I had a Bard with a few Paladin levels. He'd generally try to imprison rather than kill all but the worst humanoid villains. He'd also offer them the option of trial by combat though, a one on one fight against him which ended with their death (which at that point was kind of their own choice - suicide by Paladin)
It just occurred to me that drowning people in holy water and claiming that it "washes their souls clean" might be amusing, but I think it would be more appropriate to a madman than a Paladin (and it might even insult whatever Good deity blessed the water)
Easy way to do your research: Wikipedia on capital punishment. Obviously not all the methods discussed there, historically legal or not, will be appropriate for a paladin.Hang, Draw and Quarter them.
Kill it with fire!
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I would be disturbed by most if not all of these. Simple coup de grace without specifics suits just fine. I fail to see the 'fun'.
Tie them to a chair and preach your god's doctrine at them 24/7 (you'll need partners) until they either convert or die of boredom. Win-win, and even paladins can do it because of the conversion part!
There is nothing to keep any paladin from holding trials for bad guys who surrender, are captured or incapacitated.
Likewise paladins are equipped to do so as well.
One common argument that pops up over and over is the line about "respecting legitimate authority" and people typing the paladin to specific types of cultural figures.
The justicar trait is one way to show the paladin is in his own right a legitimate authority. The justicar prestige class is another. Back story is a third having been deputized by the local sheriff.....
Usually people get stuck in a mindset a paladin is a police officer or Texas ranger, they rarely think judge Roy bean or rawhide type.
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I can see why you'd want to use different fluff for executing people. Sliting throats is effective, fast and simple, but perhaps is not the most humane. Because of a certain scientist, society also learned that beheading wasn't as humane as we thought, and I tend to think the same as a sharp jab to the heart (There's probably been studies of people having their heart stopped/cut while on a scanner of some sort to prove/disprove that they die instantly, but I thought follows that heart replacement surgery is a real thing).
In essence, everything is going to cause pain before death, with exception to perhaps having the brain crushed/cut, preventing synapses from occurring and thus disabling consciousness.
IMO, any straightforward, no-nonsense way of killing someone would not cause a paladin to fall. So long as some vital organ is targeted, it's fine by me. Executions like drawing and quartering, or bloody eagles, are a bit extreme.
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IMO, any straightforward, no-nonsense way of killing someone would not cause a paladin to fall. So long as some vital organ is targeted, it's fine by me. Executions like drawing and quartering, or bloody eagles, are a bit extreme.
THIS. THIS this this this this. Oh, and this.
You're not in this business to have fun with it. And honestly, if you're looking into torment and punishment, if they're that evil they've already got a place booked in Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell.
And, as mentioned earlier, a coup de grace isn't always a slit throat. Someone with a greataxe as a weapon isn't going to do a quick slice on the throat or a stab through the heart. That x3 crit multiplier is going ... elsewhere.
What's the old joke? 'Drowning an invading horde of orcs in a river all at once is heroic. Drowning them one by one is an alignment check.'
The Punisher treads a fine line between LN and LE. He is an antihero. He is not a paladin. You've picked a bad inspirational choice for your paladin.
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Go Ned Stark. Look them in the eye, tell them they're going to be executed and ask if they have any last words for their loved ones. Behead them lawfully in front of witnesses, dispose of the body in accordance with local custom. Send a messenger to the family with their last words.
If your character is a Paladin and needs to execute someone who has committed evil acts it shouldn't be "fun". It's a duty, demanded by local law or your God. If it's for giggles then you're not really a Paladin to start with!
What's that? It's a homebrew Paladin, and isn't tied to the same strictures as the Paizo Paladin? This Paladin is allowed to be gritty and brutal, you say? Everyone should stop focusing on the Paizo Paladin, because it simply doesn't apply here, and focus on the actual topic of the thread? Quite bold of you, sir!
You could throw your prisoner to some hungry animals.
You could pull an Inglourious Basterds on them and brand/carve a symbol into their foreheads or scalp them after they're dead.
You could force-feed them acid.
If you have a good enough way of hiding them, you could simply make sure no one ever finds the bodies. The sudden LACK of evil corpses could be even more chilling than gratuitous displays.
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He's suggesting that despite some leniency on the part of the GM, that there appears to be restrictions because he's worried about potentially losing his powers.
We cannot know how his GM will rule, except to run it by RAW.
RAW, he can execute all the evil people he wants. But it shouldn't be done for pleasure and enjoyment, that is clearly evil in the minds of most of us. That he only does it to evil people doesn't make him less of a monster. Look at Dexter for instance.
Trying to get find fun creative ways to execute your enemies stops being lawful executions and starts being murder for funsies at some point.
A quick sword thrust through the heart is probably a kinder death than a slit throat. And I don't see paladins having a problem with it unless they're Lawful Stupid.
I think it would depend entirely on the code of the particular paladin.
A Paladin of Torag's code basically requires them to kill the enemies of the dwarves and not even allow for surrender - "Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants."
A Paladin of Abadar's code basically requires them to grant a trial first - "Bandits are a plague. Under my will they come to justice. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword. Corruption in the courts is the greatest corruption of civilization. Without confidence in justice, citizens cannot believe in their countries, and civilization begins to disappear."
A Paladin of Sarenrae's code requires them to give a chance at redemption first, slaughter second: "I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword."
So, there's a wide range of options out there that are perfectly in-line with a paladin code of conduct.
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I have a solution for him:
In a campaign I played in a while back, my PC was part of a massive war effort against a huge army of goblinoids who were Evil with a capital-E. I was playing a pretty ruthless LN type who was concerned only with defeating the enemy, but we had a Paladin and some other Good-focused PCs in the party.
Early on I wanted to try to find ways to scare and demoralize the enemy, however I faced a conundrum: what counts as an atrocity to a bugbear? I originally thought of impaling enemy bodies on stakes a-la Vlad Tepes, and other such nastiness, but I realized that it wouldn't work. A bugbear who sees his buddies impaled by the road will just think "Ha! Look at the funny humans trying to be intimidating!"
But after a little thought I came up with something much more devious. We tried it on a captive and the GM was impressed, so it worked like a charm.
The captive was washed, anointed, and blessed while still alive, and informed that after his throat was slit, his body would be bound in an attitude of supplication, and placed on his tongue would be a small wooden holy symbol to the Paladin's deity, carved with an entreaty for forgiveness. In this way the Paladin's god might claim the captive's soul.
We started doing that with every goblinoid we could, and spread the practice throughout the army. THe GM congratulated us on figuring out how to properly scare a bugbear.
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It just now occurred to me, reading this thread, that Judge Dredd is a paladin. This changes everything.
It just now occurred to me, reading this thread, that Judge Dredd is a paladin. This changes everything.Judge Dredd is the definition of LN. He's only a Paladin if you allow LN Paladins who care more about Law than Good.
No, Judge Dredd is a Hellknight.
You miss-typed "Oathbound Paladin of Abadar". :)
It just now occurred to me, reading this thread, that Judge Dredd is a paladin. This changes everything.
Depending on the incarnation of Dredd, he can be seen as a Lawful Stupid Paladin. But only in a few instances is he "good" enough to be considered a paladin.
Most of the time he would qualify as a Hellknight more than anything else, incredibly LN and endowed with the rights of Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
Yeah, he'd be sketchy on the good. Still, immensely paladiny, for my money.
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Yeah, he'd be sketchy on the good. Still, immensely paladiny, for my money.
These sentences strung together do not compute. Paladins are the pure and righteous champions of Good. That's the point of them.
If he's more focused on Law than Good he isn't a Paladin, IMO.
If you want to be "merciful" and kill them quickly and painlessly, look at various techniques for slaughtering animals used over the years, particularly in cultures that valued "painless" kills for sacrificial animals (e.g., ancient Greek, traditional Jewish, etc.). Throat slitting was the preferred method for centuries; in more modern times, they use the "bolt to the back of the skull" technique, but I'm not sure how much of that is concern for suffering over just clean and quick. (There's a quote in one of the Amber books about slaughter house workers drawing an X from the top of each ear to the opposite eye and then delivering a sharp bludgeoning blow to the center of the X. No idea if that actually works...)
All that aside...
I'm kind of blown away by the idea that the Punisher could be considered Lawful Anything. Daredevil is Lawful Good: all of his vigilante efforts are in support of the legal system: gathering evidence, turning in the bad guys, involving the police, etc.
Punisher is much more Chaotic Good: he will do whatever he thinks is necessary for (his version of) the greater good of the community, because the law is stupid and doesn't ever work. During his career, he tones it back to Neutral Good, somewhat, but Lawful never once enters his mind.
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Punisher is much more Chaotic Good: he will do whatever he thinks is necessary for (his version of) the greater good of the community, because the law is stupid and doesn't ever work. During his career, he tones it back to Neutral Good, somewhat, but Lawful never once enters his mind.
The Punisher is not good at all. (He was before he became The Punisher.)
He's not lawful because he supports the law - he's lawful because he has a strong personal code which he sticks to.
Yeah, he'd be sketchy on the good. Still, immensely paladiny, for my money.These sentences strung together do not compute. Paladins are the pure and righteous champions of Good. That's the point of them.
If he's more focused on Law than Good he isn't a Paladin, IMO.
Fair enough, but he just embodies the vibe for me, I guess.
I don't feel that obligated to the overly literal when making such a comparison, though, especially based on something as already problematic as the static D&D alignment system. Closer to home, even, I've difficulty thinking of the LN, and even LE, variants as anything other than paladins of a different order.
Anyway, he fits a certain vision of a paladin in my idiosyncratic head.
I think of "paladin" as a small pastry drizzled with honey.