master_marshmallow |
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Not only does this question need answering, but the response will also settle many issues that have been brought up in various threads.
What happens to Celestial Armor (20 lbs) which is made from chainmail (normally 40 lbs)?
Is the reduced weight part of it being a special material? Is it due to magic? If it was made of a different material would anything different happen?
QuidEst |
If the reduction is due to a special material like mithral, then it's unaffected.
Arguments for not doubling:
The description says it is "light and fine".
There are no spell requirements that go into making it light.
Carrying capacity is a nuisance to recheck.
Arguments for it doubling:
Looking at the difference between purchase and crafting price leaves no room for special materials.
It can be made from ordinary chain mail.
It's a fun "Gotcha!" for GMs who like that.
Up to the GM. The cost difference check was enough to change my initial opinion.
Wheldrake |
The only sane way to rule it is that celestial armor is made out of its own special material: fine and light *celestial* gold- or silver-colored metal. IMHO, this single ruling would put all controversy over this item to bed.
And it's not so much a "house rule" as a logically consistent reading of the item description which suffers from insufficient clarity. And being a DD3.5 legacy item.
Darksol the Painbringer |
I'll side with the others here, especially when there is no spell or magic to reduce weight without reducing size as well. If you're going to argue that Celestial Armor's weight reduction is magic-based, then the closest thing to emulate that would be Reduce Person, which means each Celestial Armor would be sized for creatures one size smaller than its standard size.
Notice how that spell isn't a component to create Celestial Armor.
Nefreet |
Rub-Eta wrote:[O]ne can not assume that it's a magical property, since it's not specifically noted.This is exactly why I'm asking for clarification.
What clarification do you need? The item's weight is listed in its description.
Any ideas that it weighs something else would be houserules.
Avoron |
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Celestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.
It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.
Celestial is not a property, it is a couple special items. You can't make new things "celestial" that don't already exist. Your DM can, and he will answer all questions associated with those items.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
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James Risner wrote:I... never claimed it was.Nefreet wrote:Celestial is not a propertyCelestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.
It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.
Sorry. I liked your post and left off or forgot to do the "+1"
I was agreeing with you, and liked the way you put it.
kinevon |
Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.
Scythia |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.
The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.
kinevon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
kinevon wrote:Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.
How do you make it mithral? You are into homebrew when you do that, no longer in the Rules section.
Scythia |
Scythia wrote:How do you make it mithral? You are into homebrew when you do that, no longer in the Rules section.kinevon wrote:Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.
One of the Ultimate books (I think Equipment or Campaign) suggested that even specific items could be modified. That's where the idea comes from, and why some people think it matters if it's a material dependant effect or not.
Entryhazard |
I think Mithral Celestial Plate should weigh 0 lbs (40/2=20 lbs for mithral plate and celestial magic effect which reduces weight by 20 lbs) and therefore immediately cease to exist since it has no mass. :]
I can name you at least one thing in the real world with zero mass that exists.
And various in the PF universe, first being Force Effects.Also composition should drop the weight to 10 lbs
Baumfluch |
saying its weight is not Magic based, because there is no spell, is just as much of an Argument as saying its Magic based, because there is no Special material, that would grant the benefits.
what do we know: its a chainmail made of Gold and silver. Gold and silver are not half as heavy as steel. thats a fact.
now you can decide what seems more legit:
In a Fantasy world a specific Magic item gets lighter then it should be by the material, because of its Magic, even though there is no specific spell, that grants this benefits,
or:
Gold and silver have a defined weight in this Fantasy world, but THIS Gold and silver is somehow lighter because its Special Gold and silver... but still Gold and silver.
or you say, every property from an item, that is granted by its Magic, Needs to be in a spell, that is required to craft it:
some examples for items, that have other properties then the spells required to craft them grant:
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier: +1 luck Bonus on AC.
Cape, Highwayman’s: where does the Bonus on skills come from? no such spell required.
Cloak of Arachnida: luck Bonus on fortitude rolls. no such spell there aswell.
there are many many more items, that grant benefits, that are not from the spells that are required to craft them. endless examples. i just picked These items randomly from the list, i didnt even know 2 of these before.
is it so hard to believe, that the weight Bonus is magical aswell, especially, when there is a Special material that would grant the benefit, but the item is explicitly NOT made of this material?
i´d say if you read a Magic item and there is not a clear, non-magical Explanation for its properties in the items text, the properties are probably magical.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Baumfluch |
Do the rules for antimagic fields talk about modifying weights?
No, the antimagic field stops magical effects from working. like e.g. enlarge Person, even though antimagic field says no word about "enlarge Person.
Does the entry for the armor talk about it?
does "enlarge Person" talk about it? no, why would it?
the entry for the armor says its a chainmail. a chainmails weight is 40lbs. the armor has 20 lbs. thats 20 lbs difference. that can be caused by 2 things:1: magicly, in this case the weight grows in an antimagic field.
2: by material property (like mithral), in this case the weight stays at 20 lbs.
No?
no the book is not telling us that the chainmail is made of mithral, wich would explain the weight loss.
so either "Gold and silver" in this armor is much lighter than common Gold or silver, or the weight is changed magicly.
Then don't modify it. It weighs 20 lbs because the book says so.
thats the conclusion, if you think the 50% weight loss is caused by a non Magic effect. so you mean silver and Gold in pathfinder weights about he half of steel.
The weight could be 1 lb with some gold and silver flakes coating a t-shirt.
considering the fact, that its a "chainmail" by the items description, that is wrong.
this is a chainmail:
Unlike a chain shirt, which covers only the chest, chainmail protects the wearer with a complete mesh of chain links that cover the torso and arms, and extends below the waist. Multiple interconnected pieces offer additional protection over vital areas. The suit includes gauntlets
doesnt Sound like a t-shirt iwth some metal flakes on it. sounds like a full Body mesh-armor, with additional plates to protect vitals.
Probably a never ending Story.
however, the rules define what a chainmail is.
so this armor is a full-body armor (Standard weight 40 lbs).
the rules introduce a Special material to us wich reduces the weight of an item by 50%. The material is called mithral.
this armor is NOT made of mithral, as we know its made of silver and Gold.
if you dont try to argue that Gold and silver is so much lighter than steel -> the weightloss can only be explained by Magic. wich doesnt work in an antimagic field, so it gets heavier.
if you think Gold and silver weights about the half of steel -> fine, then the 20lbs are generated by the material Gold and silver, and it wont Change in an antimagic field.
still not a gamebreaker, any GM can find a respectable decision, however just saying "its 20lbs because its 20lbs" is not an Argument and not a Response to any Argument given.
Ravingdork |
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One of the Ultimate books (I think Equipment or Campaign) suggested that even specific items could be modified. That's where the idea comes from, and why some people think it matters if it's a material dependant effect or not.
The GameMastey Guide, Ultimate Campaign, Ultimate Equipment, and Ultimate Magic all possess verbiage that you can alter specific magical items, or even create altered variations of them.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
bbangerter |
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so either "Gold and silver" in this armor is much lighter than common Gold or silver
This presupposes that the same volume of material is used. Any number of explanations could apply to why the armor is half the weight.
Thinner chain links?
Larger links so you need fewer of them?
Less padding used underneath?
It doesn't really matter why it is lighter, the rules state that it is 20 lbs, and without a specific rule telling you it should be treated differently, then that is its weight.
master_marshmallow |
Deities and extraplanar beings:
"Oh, that's a very nice material we have there. Let's make some armor out of it for a hero."
Some time passes.
"What. The. F-"
"Maybe Rovagug is right. Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to sure."
Celestial Armor was a 3.x item, you'd have to ask the Greyhawk deities what they were planning.