Nail in the coffin- What happens to the weight of Celestial Armor in an Antimagic field?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 65 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not only does this question need answering, but the response will also settle many issues that have been brought up in various threads.

What happens to Celestial Armor (20 lbs) which is made from chainmail (normally 40 lbs)?

Is the reduced weight part of it being a special material? Is it due to magic? If it was made of a different material would anything different happen?


If the reduction is due to a special material like mithral, then it's unaffected.

Arguments for not doubling:
The description says it is "light and fine".
There are no spell requirements that go into making it light.
Carrying capacity is a nuisance to recheck.

Arguments for it doubling:
Looking at the difference between purchase and crafting price leaves no room for special materials.
It can be made from ordinary chain mail.
It's a fun "Gotcha!" for GMs who like that.

Up to the GM. The cost difference check was enough to change my initial opinion.

Sczarni

"Nail in the coffin"?

Celestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.

It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.


I am in agreement with Nefreet. It's a unique item and nothing about it's description suggests it has magic-dependent weight.


How much would a nail in a coffin weigh in an Antimagic Field? Definitely not twice as much as the one outside.
Rather, one can not assume that it's a magical property, since it's not specifically noted.


Rub-Eta wrote:
[O]ne can not assume that it's a magical property, since it's not specifically noted.

This is exactly why I'm asking for clarification.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The only sane way to rule it is that celestial armor is made out of its own special material: fine and light *celestial* gold- or silver-colored metal. IMHO, this single ruling would put all controversy over this item to bed.

And it's not so much a "house rule" as a logically consistent reading of the item description which suffers from insufficient clarity. And being a DD3.5 legacy item.


I'll side with the others here, especially when there is no spell or magic to reduce weight without reducing size as well. If you're going to argue that Celestial Armor's weight reduction is magic-based, then the closest thing to emulate that would be Reduce Person, which means each Celestial Armor would be sized for creatures one size smaller than its standard size.

Notice how that spell isn't a component to create Celestial Armor.

Sczarni

master_marshmallow wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
[O]ne can not assume that it's a magical property, since it's not specifically noted.
This is exactly why I'm asking for clarification.

What clarification do you need? The item's weight is listed in its description.

Any ideas that it weighs something else would be houserules.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
there is no spell or magic to reduce weight without reducing size as well

Or is there?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nefreet wrote:

Celestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.

It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.

Celestial is not a property, it is a couple special items. You can't make new things "celestial" that don't already exist. Your DM can, and he will answer all questions associated with those items.

Sczarni

James Risner wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Celestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.

It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.

Celestial is not a property

I... never claimed it was.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Celestial Armor weighs 20 pounds regardless of whether it's in an Antimagic Field or not.

It is not made of Mithral. It's its own special thing that defies classification.

Celestial is not a property
I... never claimed it was.

Sorry. I liked your post and left off or forgot to do the "+1"

I was agreeing with you, and liked the way you put it.

Sczarni

+1

Grand Lodge

Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kinevon wrote:
Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.

The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Scythia wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.
The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.

How do you make it mithral? You are into homebrew when you do that, no longer in the Rules section.


kinevon wrote:
Scythia wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Just to add to the "It weighs what it weighs." side, remember non-magical Elven Chain armor, which weighs 20 pounds, whether it is in an Anti-Magic Shell or not, where normal chainmail weighs 40 pounds. Admittedly, it openly states mithral, but neither Anti-Magic Shell nor Dispel Magic would change its weight, nor its classification as light armor, even for proficiency.
The bolded section is the point. This faq attempt is trying to establish if celestial armor is made light by magic, or by material. If it's material, then the popular combo of making it mithril won't work.
How do you make it mithral? You are into homebrew when you do that, no longer in the Rules section.

One of the Ultimate books (I think Equipment or Campaign) suggested that even specific items could be modified. That's where the idea comes from, and why some people think it matters if it's a material dependant effect or not.


I'd say it's material because the weight is stated as 20 in the top template rather than stated as 40 and then halved in the description

Liberty's Edge

I think Mithral Celestial Plate should weigh 0 lbs (40/2=20 lbs for mithral plate and celestial magic effect which reduces weight by 20 lbs) and therefore immediately cease to exist since it has no mass. :]


CBDunkerson wrote:
I think Mithral Celestial Plate should weigh 0 lbs (40/2=20 lbs for mithral plate and celestial magic effect which reduces weight by 20 lbs) and therefore immediately cease to exist since it has no mass. :]

I can name you at least one thing in the real world with zero mass that exists.

And various in the PF universe, first being Force Effects.

Also composition should drop the weight to 10 lbs


saying its weight is not Magic based, because there is no spell, is just as much of an Argument as saying its Magic based, because there is no Special material, that would grant the benefits.

what do we know: its a chainmail made of Gold and silver. Gold and silver are not half as heavy as steel. thats a fact.

now you can decide what seems more legit:
In a Fantasy world a specific Magic item gets lighter then it should be by the material, because of its Magic, even though there is no specific spell, that grants this benefits,
or:
Gold and silver have a defined weight in this Fantasy world, but THIS Gold and silver is somehow lighter because its Special Gold and silver... but still Gold and silver.

or you say, every property from an item, that is granted by its Magic, Needs to be in a spell, that is required to craft it:

some examples for items, that have other properties then the spells required to craft them grant:
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier: +1 luck Bonus on AC.

Cape, Highwayman’s: where does the Bonus on skills come from? no such spell required.

Cloak of Arachnida: luck Bonus on fortitude rolls. no such spell there aswell.

there are many many more items, that grant benefits, that are not from the spells that are required to craft them. endless examples. i just picked These items randomly from the list, i didnt even know 2 of these before.
is it so hard to believe, that the weight Bonus is magical aswell, especially, when there is a Special material that would grant the benefit, but the item is explicitly NOT made of this material?

i´d say if you read a Magic item and there is not a clear, non-magical Explanation for its properties in the items text, the properties are probably magical.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do the rules for antimagic fields talk about modifying weights?

Does the entry for the armor talk about it?

No?

Then don't modify it. It weighs 20 lbs because the book says so.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The weight could be 1 lb with some gold and silver flakes coating a t-shirt.

Nothing says the weight must change.

Nothing says the item at 20 lb isn't the weight of the item dispelled of all magic.

It isn't covered what properties the item has dispelled or in an anti-magic field.


alexd1976 wrote:

Do the rules for antimagic fields talk about modifying weights?

No, the antimagic field stops magical effects from working. like e.g. enlarge Person, even though antimagic field says no word about "enlarge Person.

alexd1976 wrote:


Does the entry for the armor talk about it?

does "enlarge Person" talk about it? no, why would it?

the entry for the armor says its a chainmail. a chainmails weight is 40lbs. the armor has 20 lbs. thats 20 lbs difference. that can be caused by 2 things:
1: magicly, in this case the weight grows in an antimagic field.
2: by material property (like mithral), in this case the weight stays at 20 lbs.

alexd1976 wrote:


No?

no the book is not telling us that the chainmail is made of mithral, wich would explain the weight loss.

so either "Gold and silver" in this armor is much lighter than common Gold or silver, or the weight is changed magicly.

"alexd1976 wrote:


Then don't modify it. It weighs 20 lbs because the book says so.

thats the conclusion, if you think the 50% weight loss is caused by a non Magic effect. so you mean silver and Gold in pathfinder weights about he half of steel.

James Risner wrote:


The weight could be 1 lb with some gold and silver flakes coating a t-shirt.

considering the fact, that its a "chainmail" by the items description, that is wrong.

this is a chainmail:
"UE -> Armor -> Chainmail wrote:


Unlike a chain shirt, which covers only the chest, chainmail protects the wearer with a complete mesh of chain links that cover the torso and arms, and extends below the waist. Multiple interconnected pieces offer additional protection over vital areas. The suit includes gauntlets

doesnt Sound like a t-shirt iwth some metal flakes on it. sounds like a full Body mesh-armor, with additional plates to protect vitals.

Probably a never ending Story.
however, the rules define what a chainmail is.
so this armor is a full-body armor (Standard weight 40 lbs).
the rules introduce a Special material to us wich reduces the weight of an item by 50%. The material is called mithral.
this armor is NOT made of mithral, as we know its made of silver and Gold.
if you dont try to argue that Gold and silver is so much lighter than steel -> the weightloss can only be explained by Magic. wich doesnt work in an antimagic field, so it gets heavier.
if you think Gold and silver weights about the half of steel -> fine, then the 20lbs are generated by the material Gold and silver, and it wont Change in an antimagic field.

still not a gamebreaker, any GM can find a respectable decision, however just saying "its 20lbs because its 20lbs" is not an Argument and not a Response to any Argument given.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Scythia wrote:
One of the Ultimate books (I think Equipment or Campaign) suggested that even specific items could be modified. That's where the idea comes from, and why some people think it matters if it's a material dependant effect or not.

The GameMastey Guide, Ultimate Campaign, Ultimate Equipment, and Ultimate Magic all possess verbiage that you can alter specific magical items, or even create altered variations of them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Um, there IS celestial Plate, and the resulting armor is medium, not light.

If it's a template, we need celestial breastplate!

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Um, there IS celestial Plate, and the resulting armor is medium.

Not officially in the Pathfinder RPG.

That very same item you mention however is the source for the aforementioned RAI I cited earlier.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Baumfluch wrote:
so either "Gold and silver" in this armor is much lighter than common Gold or silver

This presupposes that the same volume of material is used. Any number of explanations could apply to why the armor is half the weight.

Thinner chain links?
Larger links so you need fewer of them?
Less padding used underneath?

It doesn't really matter why it is lighter, the rules state that it is 20 lbs, and without a specific rule telling you it should be treated differently, then that is its weight.


Darkleaf cloth functions similarly to Mithral, as does Noqual.
Neither however, could potentially be used due to their own descriptions.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Deities and extraplanar beings:

"Oh, that's a very nice material we have there. Let's make some armor out of it for a hero."

Some time passes.

"What. The. F-"

"Maybe Rovagug is right. Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to sure."


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Deities and extraplanar beings:

"Oh, that's a very nice material we have there. Let's make some armor out of it for a hero."

Some time passes.

"What. The. F-"

"Maybe Rovagug is right. Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to sure."

Celestial Armor was a 3.x item, you'd have to ask the Greyhawk deities what they were planning.


I would approach the question this way. Regular chain weighs 40, mitheral weighs 20 ....celestial armor is more like which one? (Sans magic)....

Or go by costs?

It weighs 20!!!!

1 to 50 of 65 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Nail in the coffin- What happens to the weight of Celestial Armor in an Antimagic field? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.