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I know someone has probably asked this before but my google-fu fails me.
So Shield spikes:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
And the bashing special property
So what if I get, say, a darkwood heavy shield, and enchant it to a +1 bashing heavy shield, then add cold iron shield spikes? Does that work? Do I deal 2d6 damage on a shield bash and bypass DR magic and cold iron without having to pay the extra 2000 gold for enchanting cold iron?
Heavy shield=d4 (Shield spikes)->d6 (Bashing) ->d8->2d6
no they don't work. There is a movement to have that rule overturned though.
I tried to do something similar, encountered the same stumbling block. There's this thing that isn't immediately obvious where shield enhancements don't work if you use shield spikes. Bashing heavy shield does 1d8, but since the spikes are in the way, you hit with the spikes, not with the shield. Shield spikes would do 1d6, regardless of if you have Bashing or not, since you're using the spikes as a weapon, not the shield.
Found that out when my shield-using Slayer got Shield Master. Had to buy a new shield, since I couldn't remove the spikes from it. :/
you take the highest attack enhancement bonus.
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Ok so what happens with a +2 shield and Bashing? I get it goes up in damage but is it a plus 1 weapon now? Plus 3? 2?
I've had a lot of questions about that very topic.
That I can answer.
When you enchant a shield, you can choose to EITHER increase the AC it provides (enchanting it as armor) or enchant it as if it was a weapon (adding to hit and damage) The default assumption is that a shield's pluses go to AC (so when your GM says 'you find a +2 shield' it almost universally means it goes to AC)
So let's say you have a +2 shield of bashing. The 'bashing' enchantment says that it counts as a +1 weapon and ups the damage dice two steps (small becomes d6, large becomes d8)
So a standard +2 shield of bashing adds 2 to your AC, and if you use it to bash, it counts as a +1 weapon
Some really wonky things:
1) You can enchant a shield as an AC booster and a weapon separately, and keep track of them separately. So you can have a +2 shield, which is also a +2 weapon, and it costs:
Masterwork shield: 159
+2 armor bonus: 4000
+2 weapon bonus: 8000
Total cost: 12159
2) It gets even nuttier with Shield master, which lets you use your shield's AC bonus as if it was also a weapon bonus. So a level 6 ranger with the sword-and-board style can treat their +2 to AC shield as a +2 weapon. However, if that shield is a +2 shield of bashing, then you take the better of the two bonuses. So you take the bashing (1d8 damage) and the +2 ac bonus (from shield master) to make it count as a +2 1d8 weapon that gives you +2 to AC.
I tried to do something similar, encountered the same stumbling block. There's this thing that isn't immediately obvious where shield enhancements don't work if you use shield spikes. Bashing heavy shield does 1d8, but since the spikes are in the way, you hit with the spikes, not with the shield. Shield spikes would do 1d6, regardless of if you have Bashing or not, since you're using the spikes as a weapon, not the shield.
Found that out when my shield-using Slayer got Shield Master. Had to buy a new shield, since I couldn't remove the spikes from it. :/
That's just harsh. YOu can remove the spikes from a shield as easily as you can add them onto it. They are simply screwed or riveted into place.
But, technically, while it changes the damage type and sets the damage to one size larger, this does NOT prevent Bashing from setting the damage to 2 sizes larger.
You are mistaken in your description. The shield spikes do not do the damage. The Spiked Shield does. By RAW, you would need to have an adamantium/silver/cold iron SHIELD to do the appropriate kind of damage, not merely the spikes. The spikes are a part of the shield, are not enhanced seperately, and do not do damage seperately. The damage is from a spiked shield, NOT from shield spikes, and the damage still comes from a Bash attack, even if the damage type has changed.
Note: This is distinctly different then ARMOR SPIKES. Armor Spikes are indeed added seperately to armor, are enhanced seperate from the armor, and are considered their own weapons. A shield, in contrast, spiked or not, is all one item, and spiked and normal shields are all enhanced exactly the same way. The only difference is damage type and amount.
So you'd end up with a Piercing Shield doing d8 from Bashing, by RAW. Bashing has no language saying it doesn't work if the shield is spiked...the only effect is the damage doesn't stack, it overlaps.
==Aelryinth
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Yup that 2) part was exactly what I wanted.
Damn confusing and I'm running 2 games and both have shield bashers. One a ranger and he took the mastery so it's come up.
Technically what is happening is that a feat is letting you treat the weapon as a +2 weapon, and an enchantment is letting you treat the shield as a +1 weapon with increased damage die. Unless specifically stated, weapon enhancement bonuses DO NOT STACK. So you take the better of the two.
Same thing would happen if you had a +1 Shield of bashing and someone cast greater magic weapon, turning it into a +3 weapon. You would take the greater of the two bonuses (in this case, the +3)
In case you are wondering, there are a few classes that let you specifically stack enhancement bonuses, but they are explicit about it. The Magus can do it, one of the Occultist's abilities lets them do it (weapon of legend, from the transformation school) and a Paladin who gets a holy weapon instead of a horse can do it.
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It was mostly the shield spikes and master shield and Bashing overlap. So many things and I knew some did and some didn't stack.
Eventually the player just asked if he could use spikes to have the option to do piercing instead of bludgeon. I had no issue with that knowing he would get bashing later and it wouldn't stack.
That work out? Use bashing and still do piercing?
Technically no, but you are the GM and free to make the call. Shield spikes specifically say that they change the damage type TO piercing (not P OR B).
If the player wants to do that, there is a feat for it called 'weapon versatility.' Lets him use a swift (later free) action to change the damage type of any weapon (including a shield) from P to B to S. Again though, your game, you make the call. I don't see it screwing up the game too much unless you are doing a lot of underwater combat/fighting a boatload of oozes.
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It was actually zombies in session one of Reign of Winter. I think I'm ok with just letting him choose the damage type. It's not PFS and frankly that's all he wanted, not even to do more damage. He will eventually pick up bashing and shield master.
The ranger already has, and I think he's good skipping shield spikes.
Thanks guys.
There aren't a lot of creatures that have DR/Piercing. There's only Rakshasas and maybe Oozes. Outside that, most everything else would be Bludgeoning or Slashing. So I don't see the appeal of Shield Spikes. Even so, it shouldn't be difficult to remove the Spikes on a shield, espeecially if they're just an attachment to the shield. You could make it a Throwing Shield for the same price, and it could have useful ranged versatility. (Please don't bring up the stupid RAW typo regarding the Throwing Shield, or even allow it. You'll descend into madness if you do.)
Bashing would be better in comparison, as there really isn't many +1 properties that are worth it for Shields. Just remember that it won't stack with other Effective Size Bonuses, like Lead Blades or Impact, but it will stack with Actual Size Bonuses, such as Enlarge Person.
With Shield Master, you can have a +5 Bashing/+5 Defending (or Guardian) Shield, spend the +5 Weapon Enhancements to provide a +5 Bonus to AC or Saving Throws, and still maintain a +5 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls, for every round that you're attacking.
(drumrolls) Aaaand that is called the Uber Shield! Make sure it is Hardened and treated with a Rune of Durability as well! And made of adamantine!
===Aelryinth
I tried to do something similar, encountered the same stumbling block. There's this thing that isn't immediately obvious where shield enhancements don't work if you use shield spikes. Bashing heavy shield does 1d8, but since the spikes are in the way, you hit with the spikes, not with the shield. Shield spikes would do 1d6, regardless of if you have Bashing or not, since you're using the spikes as a weapon, not the shield.
Found that out when my shield-using Slayer got Shield Master. Had to buy a new shield, since I couldn't remove the spikes from it. :/That's just harsh. YOu can remove the spikes from a shield as easily as you can add them onto it. They are simply screwed or riveted into place.
But, technically, while it changes the damage type and sets the damage to one size larger, this does NOT prevent Bashing from setting the damage to 2 sizes larger.
You are mistaken in your description. The shield spikes do not do the damage. The Spiked Shield does. By RAW, you would need to have an adamantium/silver/cold iron SHIELD to do the appropriate kind of damage, not merely the spikes. The spikes are a part of the shield, are not enhanced seperately, and do not do damage seperately. The damage is from a spiked shield, NOT from shield spikes, and the damage still comes from a Bash attack, even if the damage type has changed.
Note: This is distinctly different then ARMOR SPIKES. Armor Spikes are indeed added seperately to armor, are enhanced seperate from the armor, and are considered their own weapons. A shield, in contrast, spiked or not, is all one item, and spiked and normal shields are all enhanced exactly the same way. The only difference is damage type and amount.
So you'd end up with a Piercing Shield doing d8 from Bashing, by RAW. Bashing has no language saying it doesn't work if the shield is spiked...the only effect is the damage doesn't stack, it overlaps.
==Aelryinth
I did some research on it. When I was building it, I asked a similar question here as well, and I got the answer that shield spikes are a package deal with the shield, and can't be added/removed retroactively. Similarly, I was told that I could add special materials to the shield as spikes (so, adamantine spikes).
Anyway, just repeating what I've been told. It's a fuzzy subject.
I did some research on it. When I was building...I tried to do something similar, encountered the same stumbling block. There's this thing that isn't immediately obvious where shield enhancements don't work if you use shield spikes. Bashing heavy shield does 1d8, but since the spikes are in the way, you hit with the spikes, not with the shield. Shield spikes would do 1d6, regardless of if you have Bashing or not, since you're using the spikes as a weapon, not the shield.
Found that out when my shield-using Slayer got Shield Master. Had to buy a new shield, since I couldn't remove the spikes from it. :/That's just harsh. YOu can remove the spikes from a shield as easily as you can add them onto it. They are simply screwed or riveted into place.
But, technically, while it changes the damage type and sets the damage to one size larger, this does NOT prevent Bashing from setting the damage to 2 sizes larger.
You are mistaken in your description. The shield spikes do not do the damage. The Spiked Shield does. By RAW, you would need to have an adamantium/silver/cold iron SHIELD to do the appropriate kind of damage, not merely the spikes. The spikes are a part of the shield, are not enhanced seperately, and do not do damage seperately. The damage is from a spiked shield, NOT from shield spikes, and the damage still comes from a Bash attack, even if the damage type has changed.
Note: This is distinctly different then ARMOR SPIKES. Armor Spikes are indeed added seperately to armor, are enhanced seperate from the armor, and are considered their own weapons. A shield, in contrast, spiked or not, is all one item, and spiked and normal shields are all enhanced exactly the same way. The only difference is damage type and amount.
So you'd end up with a Piercing Shield doing d8 from Bashing, by RAW. Bashing has no language saying it doesn't work if the shield is spiked...the only effect is the damage doesn't stack, it overlaps.
==Aelryinth
It's not really fuzzy. How about we actually read what's written instead of what someone told you from eons ago (probably some "Back in my day" bogus story anyway).
From the PRD regarding Shield Spikes:
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see "spiked shields" on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
With my emphases, there are numerous occasions where the Shield Spikes, outside of being referenced as an add-on or application, treat their union as a singular item, and when it comes to adding enhancements, they are also specifically called out as being treated as a singular item.
Now, let's look at Armor Spikes from the PRD:
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see "spiked armor" on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
Conversely, the Armor Spikes description doesn't treat Armor Spikes and Armor and the same entity, and for enhancement purposes, they are specifically called out as being separate enhancement subjects (i.e. you can't put Weapon properties on the Armor, and you can't put Armor properties on the Weapon).
This is all RAW, and is most certainly RAI according to the Devs. I bet the reason you got confused was because of James Jacobs stating that you would have to enhance them both separately. But he is wrong. And wrong. And probably houserules his games to work that way.
He might be the Creative Director behind Golarion and Pathfinder, but he isn't a rules guy, and I'd always double-check on the things that he says, if only to make sure it coincides with the rules that are posted.
ahg.
The description of a Klar says it is treated as a light spiked shield. The slashing damage in the weapon table for d6 is for the blade of the Klar, not if you Bash with it.
Note that Warpriest sacred damage does not stack or modify with ANY other effect to the base dmg. That said, it's usually higher then the weapon will get, so fine. (Virtual size increases affect base dmg, and sacred overrides base dmg).
That said, REAL size increases should increase the sacred damage.
THE NPC example with the 2-12 shield was published six months before the ruling on Spiked SHields and Bashing.
The official position is now that Bashing and SHield Spikes don't stack. In PFS, they don't stack. In your house game, you can play as you like with the old ruling.
The biggest reason for the nerf was because of stacking high end natural attacks, not shields. Improved Natural Attack stacking with Strong Jaw stacking with Animal Growth could get VERY out of hand.
==Aelryinth
That's because the NPC codex entry was put to paper a year before and published six months before the FAQ judgement came down. Do you think they are going to come down and nit pick every prior piece of published material for that level of detail?
They've ruled on spiked shields and bashing - spiked shields are a virtual size increase...it is right there in the description. You may not LIKE it, but its there. And because of that, they don't stack.
You can play it differently at home - nobody cares, and it won't unbalance anything to go with the former rule.
Its just that OFFICIALLY, they don't stack anymore. It's annoying, but James Jacobs got his wish. Bleh.
==Aelryinth
blogs aren't core, and not errata. It was HELPFUL, not OFFICIAL.
The definitions of spiked shields are in core. The language that shield spikes are NOT separate from their shields is part of core. The fact that later authors can't keep that straight (or call them ARMOR SPIKES) is a whole separate issue.
Errata isn't issued on non-core material, therefore they didn't address the NPC thing. It was irrelevant. It's a useless cite, because it's post-rules revision. It's akin to saying that because an NPC had Crane Wing before they issued the FAQ revision on it, Crane Wing stays in its old form and everyone can ignore the Crane Wing nerf. (and yes, there's a module with a NPC using old Crane Wing).
They've repeatedly said that virtual size increases to damage don't stack, and the core definition of a spiked shield uses the key words 'as if it were", which is PRECISELY the language of a virtual size increase. Deny it if you like, it's just self-denial.
Officially, the ruling has been made. We don't have to like it, but it has been done. Kindly note: I let them stack in my home campaign, but I don't claim it's OFFICIAL.
==Aelryinth
Klar entry says:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
So they don't even count as a Heavy Spiked Shield. They count as a regular light shield. With added Armor Spikes. So bashing with it, under that description, deals 1D3 Bludgeoning damage. Attacking with the Armor Spikes part of it deals 1D6 Piercing damage. In both cases, they're a Light Weapon.
Saying that every attack with a Shield is a Shield Bash would be wrong in this case, if we want to assume that the Klar, which is a Shield, has Armor Spikes that you can attack with as well.
The Table entry is so far incorrect that it doesn't match any sort of RAW or precedent in the game without any reason behind what's currently in the text. Saying that it's Armor Spikes would be incorrect, as Spikes, in every scenario and instance written, deals Piercing Damage, and yet the Klar entry in the table mentions Slashing damage. In addition, Armor Spikes are a Light Weapon, with it counting as a Light Shield, which is also a Light Weapon, and yet the Klar is listed to be a One-Handed Weapon. Sounds like an errata is needed to fix that item, since it betrays every single precedent regarding Spikes and Light Weaponry without any inclusion as to a reason why that is. (There is, but if I know how people behave, they'll say that flavor text doesn't count, so I won't count it as a reason.)
Additionally, we're assuming that you can even bash with the Klar in the first place. The Klar counts as a Light Shield. It's not an actual Light Shield that you can bash with, per RAW. The fact that it's listed in the Shields table is because it counts as a shield, but you couldn't bash with it any more than you could a Buckler or Tower Shield, because it's not an actual Light or Heavy Shield.
I will go ahead and point out that the Shield Spikes entry has the same verbiage as every other subject that provides an Effective Size Bonus to damage dice. This includes Bashing, Impact, Lead Blades, Gravity Bow, and other similar subjects, which the FAQ says would not stack with themselves. Stating that the table supersedes the text is like saying I don't need Dexterity 15 for Double Slice according to the table, even though the pre-requisites in the feat description mentions a 15 Dexterity being needed in order to take it. In which case, you would be wrong.
Doesn't matter. Bashing enchants won't work on armour. The book says it has to go on a shield. Armour spikes aren't shields.
Therefore even with a typo there's no leg to stand on.
Unless we are now going to get into a discussion of how armour spikes are somehow shields as well. Which they are not. So the enchant won't work on them and 2d6 doesn't fly.
Aye, it's the repeated cycle of 'this won't work because it contradicts every other rule about this' and his insistence that just because it's in print that it does...which is really crazy.
I mean, there's sticking to your guns in an unreasonable position, but this has gone a bit too far.
I mean, I want my heavy spiked shield of bashing to go back to 2-12 dmg, too, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore the rules as a baseline.
==Aelryinth
Sacred Weapon damage replaces the base damage of a weapon. Says right in the descriptor of it.
Virtual size increases replace the base damage of the weapon also, in the case of a spiked shield or bashing. So the Sacred Weapon increase will not stack with it, by its language...they overlap. Whatever is highest, wins.
Actual size increase would, however, since its no longer virtual, it's an actual Size increase.
==Aelryinth
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I do have problems with the idea of Shield Spikes not stacking with the Bashing Enchantment. It is counter-intuitive
Scarred Wanderer
or anybody has been able to show me.
It's actually counter-intuitive if they did stack, which is why we have a FAQ now.
If you point to Scarred Wanderer NPC, then you clearly haven't looked at the Bestiary/Codex errors threads. Literally hundreds of errors for each book. You point to one error as cannon of your position, when it is simply one of many simple errors in those types of books.
As for being shown, you have been shown issues with your interpretations of the rules. You ignore them.
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The idea that 2d6 damage on a shield bash is somehow tipping the scales in any combat and needed to be disallowed is patently absurd.
And FYI, I see no proof offered by you or anyone that the Scarred Wanderer entry is an error. That's purely speculative on your part.
You think it is absurd, but the developers didn't because they made a FAQ to fix the problem
It is also convenient to argue something may not be in error, when even if it is in error, it is wildly unlikely to ever be fixed. They rarely ever fix errors in monster/npc stat blocks. I'm sure you know that.
The link goes to a posting where JJ tells us that this wasn't intended, not to an FAQ entry. He talks about how they wanted to clear it up in the FAQ, did they? I might have missed it.
Right now we have a printed book telling one way and some inofficial, not errata message board posts telling the other way. Expect table variation.
Based on your interpretation, Lead Blades would work on Armor Spikes but not on a spiked shield. Lead Blades increases density and momentum. Telling me it won't work on a spiked shield, but will work on a shield...is the definition of counter-intuitive.
It's actually counter-intuitive if they did stack, which is why we have a FAQ now.
The FAQ was put together because the PDT wanted to shut down some of the egregious damage druids were doing with animal companions. The idea that 2d6 damage on a shield bash is somehow tipping the scales in any combat and needed to be disallowed is patently absurd.
Sure, there are some things that I could see stacking or not stacking e.g. Lead Blades and Bashing. But a physical weapon not "stacking" with a spell is three steps beyond counter-intuitive. So please, try another line of reasoning.
And FYI, I see no proof offered by you or anyone that the Scarred Wanderer entry is an error. That's purely speculative on your part.
A rule created/clarified that ruins something that's perfectly balanced? You must be new here if you think Shield Bash damage is a patently absurd "nerf" that Paizo has done, in comparison to some of their other, much more "patently absurd" nerfing.
If there's anything I've learned while being on the forums and discussing which perspective is the correct one, it's that rules aren't created/clarified to "tip the scales," or balance out some option, they're done to properly follow the design intentions of the developer team. You never consider balance when discussing the rules, you always consider whether that rule is something that is really what the developers intended to happen. If you want to consider balance, you take it up in the Homebrew or Advice section, because if there's anything about this system that I can tell you in regards to its design values, it's that balance doesn't matter, and if it does, it's something that's tweaked in the hands of the players who play the game. The developers would rather leave it up to the players to determine what's balanced or not, as is evidenced by Rule 0.
Despite that, the FAQ tells us that the designers did not intend for damage dice from same-type size increases (both Effective and Actual) to stack with themselves. The fact that Shields fell into that category is just a consequence of that design intention, one that they felt was the correct interpretation. If you don't like its consequences, then fix it for your home games. Just don't profess your houserules as RAW, or RAI.
All I can say is, I hope you enjoy Druids being able to hit for 36D8+Ridiculous Damage Modifiers, just because you think the Shield Bash nerf is "patently absurd."
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The link goes to a posting where JJ tells us that this wasn't intended, not to an FAQ entry. He talks about how they wanted to clear it up in the FAQ, did they? I might have missed it.
Yes they cleared it up by putting out a FAQ on size increases, which explicitly blocks bashing and spiked shield working.
Much as a I hate to say it, 'explictly' is not what happened.
More like, 'indicates', but unfortunately left room open for interpretation. They should have just said "Spiked Shields and bashing do not stack" and been done with it, but that did not happen.
==Aelryinth
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PDT needs to issue errata for Gravity Clip (and several other items/spells that work in this manner) and that errata has to point out that this item doesn't improve the damage for shield spikes
This whole "they need Errata" thing is bizarre to me.
They don't need to issue Errata to make things work when they already work.
Spiked Shields and Gravity Clip both use "as if one size larger" language. These don't stack. No need for errata.