Just stumbled upon some of the Weapon Master's Handbook material on d20pfsrd. Glad to see some new styles out there! However I'm a little confused by the final feat in this particular tree - Startoss Shower
If you follow Startoss Comet, the extra attack is at your highest bonus. With the Shower, are they all at your highest bonus?
This particular tree makes me giddy about creating a Flying Blade character, but I want to know how everything works before I do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup, appear to all be at highest bonus. Happy bouncing!
It looks that way. I mean I guess the limiting factors are that there needs to be multiple opponents, and they all need to be rather close to each other (since most thrown weapons are about 20-30ft tops)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yup. Even then, you do have a limit on your attacks based on your BAB. Not sure which is the more likely limit.
If you are required a 3 or more to hit, then more often than not you won't make it to the end of the chain: .85^5=.4437
Hmm.
Human Swashbuckler 7
1. Weapon Focus - Dagger, Point Blank Shot
2.
3. Startoss Style
4. Startoss Comet
5. Slashing Grace
6.
7. Startoss Shower
Assuming you had 3 gents nice and bunched together, you could toss 1 Dagger and strike all 3, at 1d4 +7(Precise Strike)+DEX(Slashing Grace) +1 (PBS) +6 (Startoss Style). Give or take, 1d4+18 or so. Not bad at all!
Funny enough though, that style does best against multiple opponents. Against 1, it would be stuck at 1 Dagger per round (without quickdraw).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems, we need to bring back that Stone Oracle / Hurler Barbarian / Fighter
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm.
Human Swashbuckler 7
1. Weapon Focus - Dagger, Point Blank Shot
2.
3. Startoss Style
4. Startoss Comet
5. Slashing Grace
6.
7. Startoss ShowerAssuming you had 3 gents nice and bunched together, you could toss 1 Dagger and strike all 3, at 1d4 +7(Precise Strike)+DEX(Slashing Grace) +1 (PBS) +6 (Startoss Style). Give or take, 1d4+18 or so. Not bad at all!
Funny enough though, that style does best against multiple opponents. Against 1, it would be stuck at 1 Dagger per round (without quickdraw).
You're supposed to be full attacking a single target; Startoss is intended for AOE, which is something martials tend to struggle at.
Yes! That's why I'm so giddy about it. And it has an incredible visual to imagine.
Although, that brings up another question. What exactly is the number of opponents you can strike using this style? Is my example of 3 correct? 1 from the initial standard action attack, 1 ricochet from Startoss Comet, and 1 more from Startoss Shower (and 1 more target for every 5 base attack)
Say we have 20 Base Attack. How many foes can you strike? I want to guess 7. 1 from the initial attack, 1 rebound from Startoss Comet, and 5 from Startoss Shower.
I feel that Startoss Shower's extra attacks are supposed to replace the extra attack from Startoss Comet. Which is kind of odd because Shower specifically calls out using Comet first
If you are required a 3 or more to hit, then more often than not you won't make it to the end of the chain: .85^5=.4437
Needing 3 or more is 90%, giving you just shy of 60% to complete. So really, you're looking to get to that "hit on a 3" point, since needing 4 or more is the 44%.
You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. So if you had BAB 20, you could make 5 attacks.
This is how I read it. Replace the 1 extra attack from comet with + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus. This means that Shower gives no real benefit until 10th when you get 2 extra attack.
Well if that's the case nothing says the first attack isn't included in the "You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess" because comet says, "As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack... If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack "
So comet lets you make two attacks. Apparently with Shower you get the one original attack since that is the maximum number of attacks till lv10. Then you gain the benefit equal to startoss comet till lv15 when you can finally do more than 2 attacks.
You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. So if you had BAB 20, you could make 5 attacks.This is how I read it. Replace the 1 extra attack from comet with + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus. This means that Shower gives no real benefit until 10th when you get 2 extra attack.
Yeah, I can read it that way too. I'm rather curious why the Base Attack requirement for Startoss Shower is only +4, if it basically didn't do anything (except +2 damage from the Style) until level 10+
|
Comet is max of two attacks at +4 damage.
Shower is max of one attack (at BAB +4) to six attacks (at BAB +20) at +6 damage.
Both use a standard action and full BAB. I'd say that it would make more sense to give shower a +5 BAB requirement (rather than +4) so that it starts out the same as comet with +2 additional damage and then improves from there.
Chess Pwn: maximum number of attacks without any qualifiers is pretty straight forward. Unless you somehow aren't counting the first hit an attack, which if that's the case I really don't know where you're coming from.
Zenogu: I think you nailed it. You snag the feat for the extra damage first then get the extra attacks as you level. It's most likely a gateway vs 3/4BAB classes getting the damage bonus (pushing it off till 6th at least). Though a +5 makes more sense than +4.
At worst, the feat equals weapon specialization so it doesn't need to give an additional effect right off the bat.
It's a sad thing that only the Style itself works with any kind of Sling though. For some reason those are in the thrown group but attacking with them isn't a thrown weapon attack.
Chess Pwn: maximum number of attacks without any qualifiers is pretty straight forward. Unless you somehow aren't counting the first hit an attack, which if that's the case I really don't know where you're coming from.
Right so if you get it at BAB 4 you can make 1 attack. Comet says make an attack and if it hits you can make a second attack. So with Shower you can make the one attack as a standard but not ricochet it because your max attacks are used up. So it's a downgrade at 4 or less, equal at 5-9, and only does something on it's own at lv10. Is this correct according to you?
Chess Pwn: maximum number of attacks without any qualifiers is pretty straight forward. Unless you somehow aren't counting the first hit an attack, which if that's the case I really don't know where you're coming from.Right so if you get it at BAB 4 you can make 1 attack. Comet says make an attack and if it hits you can make a second attack. So with Shower you can make the one attack as a standard but not ricochet it because your max attacks are used up. So it's a downgrade at 4 or less, equal at 5-9, and only does something on it's own at lv10. Is this correct according to you?
#1 I'll agree, it most likely SHOULD be a +5 requirement.
#2 It doesn't really matter though as the shower feat says you "can continue". As such, I don't think you're forced to take it's rate over the comets. Even if it was truly a downgrade, you wait a level to pick it.
#3 you are also forgetting/not mentioning that at 4+ you are also dealing +2 damage. So it's not doing nothing before 10th.
#4 To be clear, this is how I read the RAW from the book. As it's a Paizo product though, I would never say I'm sure it's correct one.
It's a sad thing that only the Style itself works with any kind of Sling though. For some reason those are in the thrown group but attacking with them isn't a thrown weapon attack.
That is awfully bizarre that Sling is in the Thrown weapon group. If I had to take it out of that weapon group and place it into another, I'm not sure where I would place it. I mean, I can kind of seeing it go both ways as "thrown" and "fired."
"Thrown" because it's dependent on the user's Strength, and the general motion of using a sling.
"Fired" because, well, it fires ammunition and needs to be reloaded. And magical slings bestow their properties to the ammo.
I disagree... Comet is very straight forward. You can make two attacks per round at your highest BaB. Now you get Shower, you make your first attack as a standard action, then you get your second attack as per Comet, and then you start getting another attack per +5 BaB. In other words, you get 3 at +5 BaB.
Chess Pwn: maximum number of attacks without any qualifiers is pretty straight forward. Unless you somehow aren't counting the first hit an attack, which if that's the case I really don't know where you're coming from.Right so if you get it at BAB 4 you can make 1 attack. Comet says make an attack and if it hits you can make a second attack. So with Shower you can make the one attack as a standard but not ricochet it because your max attacks are used up. So it's a downgrade at 4 or less, equal at 5-9, and only does something on it's own at lv10. Is this correct according to you?#1 I'll agree, it most likely SHOULD be a +5 requirement.
#2 It doesn't really matter though as the shower feat says you "can continue". As such, I don't think you're forced to take it's rate over the comets. Even if it was truly a downgrade, you wait a level to pick it.
#3 you are also forgetting/not mentioning that at 4+ you are also dealing +2 damage. So it's not doing nothing before 10th.
#4 To be clear, this is how I read the RAW from the book. As it's a Paizo product though, I would never say I'm sure it's correct one.
I'm not forgetting, The line "only does something on it's own" was meant to reference this fact because it's the base style that is getting stronger for taking this feat, not that this feat is granting the +2. Thus I was hoping to allude I was just talking about the ability of the feat and not all effects of it.
But anyways, It seems I understood your view correctly. And as you say, because of the lack of clear wording, we don't know exactly what they meant, and there's nothing more to add to support either side. My view is Biased in that I view feats as supposed to be "working" right when you take them and not waiting many levels, but that's not necessarily Paizo's view of things.
|
|
It's a sad thing that only the Style itself works with any kind of Sling though. For some reason those are in the thrown group but attacking with them isn't a thrown weapon attack.
The designer says over here that he intended for a halfling to be able to use startoss along with slipslinger.
Thus, I'd think you CAN use all the options together. Slings (including slingstaffs) are kind of a special case anyway... more like an atlatl than a bow in that they boost your throw.
I disagree... Comet is very straight forward. You can make two attacks per round at your highest BaB. Now you get Shower, you make your first attack as a standard action, then you get your second attack as per Comet, and then you start getting another attack per +5 BaB. In other words, you get 3 at +5 BaB.
It says "When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat" not 'when you've completed your comet attacks' or 'when you've finished hitting with comet' or something similar.
It uses the exact wording of the comet feat of hitting as the trigger for gaining the second attack so why would it trigger off something else in the shower feat?
Chess Pwn: I agree. I just understand how Paizo has been ruling things lately and 3 full BAB throws + vital strike on 1st +2 extra damage per throw as a standard at 5th seems strong. Too strong and the kind of thing that gets the nerf squad to come by and hammer things into uselessness.
My reading seems more in step with useful but not overpowered. Now I'll say again, I could be wrong but if I am I fear the nerf hammer...
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 29 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was asked to chime in on Startoss Shower with my designer intent in the Weapon Masters Handbook thread. I'll repost that post here (hint: those of you who think that Startoss Shower makes Startoss Comet worse are misreading the feat). With that in mind, please read the flag:
Can we get some developer intent about Startoss please?
How many attacks, total, for Startoss Shower? Is it (initial attack) + (1 bounce from Comet) + (1 or more bounces from Shower), or is it (initial attack) + (1 or more bounces from Shower)?
Startoss Comet works like Cleave while Startoss Shower works like Great Cleave. Startoss Comet allows your weapon to "bounce" to hit one other target, and Startoss Shower increases the number of "bounces" that your weapon can make to equal one + one per 5 BAB. Ergo, if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to four "bounces." Ergo, Startoss Comet should probably say "maximum number of extra attacks" instead of just "maximum number of attacks," unless Startoss Shower was changed during development (which happens).
With that said, counting the initial attack doesn't make sense given how the feat is written, because it would actually make that part of Startoss Shower do nothing for a fighter who managed to meet its minimum prerequisites at Level 4. (Since the feat has a BAB prerequisite of +4, it would actually WEAKEN the fighting style compared to Startoss Comet.) As a result, I'm almost positive that Paizo and I are on the same page for this one.
TL;DR What Henshin said above me was my original intent.
I was asked to chime in on Startoss Shower with my designer intent in the Weapon Masters Handbook thread. I'll repost that post here (hint: those of you who think that Startoss Shower makes Startoss Comet worse are misreading the feat). With that in mind, please read the flag:
Can we get some developer intent about Startoss please?
How many attacks, total, for Startoss Shower? Is it (initial attack) + (1 bounce from Comet) + (1 or more bounces from Shower), or is it (initial attack) + (1 or more bounces from Shower)?
Startoss Comet works like Cleave while Startoss Shower works like Great Cleave. Startoss Comet allows your weapon to "bounce" to hit one other target, and Startoss Shower increases the number of "bounces" that your weapon can make to equal one + one per 5 BAB. Ergo, if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to four "bounces." Ergo, Startoss Comet should probably say "maximum number of extra attacks" instead of just "maximum number of attacks," unless Startoss Shower was changed during development (which happens).
With that said, counting the initial attack doesn't make sense given how the feat is written, because it would actually make that part of Startoss Shower do nothing for a fighter who managed to meet its minimum prerequisites at Level 4. (Since the feat has a BAB prerequisite of +4, it would actually WEAKEN the fighting style compared to Startoss Comet.) As a result, I'm almost positive that Paizo and I are on the same page for this one.
TL;DR What Henshin said above me was my original intent.
Thanks for chiming in. While it may be something that seems obvious, I think there was some confusion if you would get 3 + 1 per 5 BAB (1 initial, 1 from Startoss Comet, and the 1 + 1 per BAB from Shower).
Appreciate dev and design posts. <3 Paizo and all them cool freelancers
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for chiming in. While it may be something that seems obvious, I think there was some confusion if you would get 3 + 1 per 5 BAB (1 initial, 1 from Startoss Comet, and the 1 + 1 per BAB from Shower).
Appreciate dev and design posts. <3 Paizo and all them cool freelancers
No problem!
I enjoy chiming in about stuff I wrote, provided that the posters handle what I say like mature, rational people. (Its depressing that I have to hope for that when dealing with the internet, though. :-| )
Thank you Alexander! That affirms my understanding of the feat. Otherwise there is no point in allowing a feat to be available at 4th level if you cannot utilize it beyond the Prereq feat for 6 more levels.
I don't feel that is overpowered at all considering all the limitations on it; first the targets must be within range of your weapon, then you must actually hit with that attack. The next target must again be within range, then you must succeed at another attack to even continue. So on and so forth. You cannot attack the same target twice. So it is not as if you're gaining a ton of extra attacks against the same target. This style makes Throwing Builds somewhat viable now. Add in Ricochet Toss and you can do the Throwing builds really well!
Ergo, Startoss Comet should probably say "maximum number of extra attacks" instead of just "maximum number of attacks," unless Startoss Shower was changed during development (which happens).
Yep, that was the stumbling block for me. As it is it doesn't really read to match what your intent was. Looks like we'll need an official word at some point.
Thanks for the post on the intent though. It gives us something to work with while we wait to see if we get an official reply. :)
because it would actually make that part of Startoss Shower do nothing for a fighter who managed to meet its minimum prerequisites at Level 4.
While I hope you're right, it wouldn't be the first time things slipped by. Things like prone shooter happened and the +4 could be an editing mistake for an intended higher requirement. Fingers crossed you're right.
I don't feel that is overpowered at all
I've seen countless things I haven't thought overpowered rebalanced lately. [crane wing [multiple times], SLA, scared witch, slashing grace, ect...] As a result, I've had to DRAMATICALLY lower the threshold of what I think may seem overpowered to the PDT.
Oh, so that means my original assumption in that Level 7 Build was correct?
Hot diggity dang. I love it when Thrown Weapons get some love!
I don't feel that is overpowered at all
I've seen countless things I haven't thought overpowered rebalanced lately. [crane wing [multiple times], SLA, scared witch, slashing grace, ect...] As a result, I've had to DRAMATICALLY lower the threshold of what I think may seem overpowered to the PDT.
Touché. I cannot dispute that view... I've been rather disappointed with some of their decisions as well.
While it's not a Full BaB class, the Far Strike Monk archetype is a really cool thrown build option.
Oh, so that means my original assumption in that Level 7 Build was correct?
Hot diggity dang. I love it when Thrown Weapons get some love!
Combine that with Ricochet Shot and being a Chakram fighter has never been sweeter. Thrown has excellent class skills associated with it, too...
I'm wondering which is easier to get going, a Lore Warden with high DEX or a heavy armor fighter who uses the Belt of Mighty Hurling, who has the additional benefit of his ranged weapon basically being a longsword with less crit in melee.
Do you mean Ricochet Shot Spell? If so, how does that work? That sounds like an great amount of fun! Especially if you can single-class this style with a Ranger since that spell is on their list and have access to the Thrown Combat Style.
I think he means Ricochet Toss.
If you are required a 3 or more to hit, then more often than not you won't make it to the end of the chain: .85^5=.4437Needing 3 or more is 90%, giving you just shy of 60% to complete. So really, you're looking to get to that "hit on a 3" point, since needing 4 or more is the 44%.
Yeah, my bad. I knew what I was doing when I did the math, just translated it wrong.
I think he means Ricochet Toss.
a new thing in the Weapon Master's Handbook.
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/Dart
|
|
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/Dart
I think it would either add one additional possible ricochet at the end of the sequence... or do nothing at all. The latter because it is basically giving you the effect of Startoss Comet and thus wouldn't 'stack' with a similar effect.
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/Dart
Not much, because one applies to thrown weapons, the other to projectile weapons.
Ah yes. A common oversight on my part. Very rarely does that difference in ranged weaponry come up
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/DartNot much, because one applies to thrown weapons, the other to projectile weapons.
Well there ARE projectile weapons that use thrown weapons. For instance take a Spear-sling. Is it a projectile weapons attack, a thrown weapon attack or both?
Or for instance, an atlatl throws javelins. Another projectile/thrown weapon combo.
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/DartNot much, because one applies to thrown weapons, the other to projectile weapons.Well there ARE projectile weapons that use thrown weapons. For instance take a Spear-sling. Is it a projectile weapons attack, a thrown weapon attack or both?
Or for instance, an atlatl throws javelins. Another projectile/thrown weapon combo.
Spear-sling, and launching crossbows, are projectile weapons using ammo that could also be used as thrown weapons. Atl-atl is a projectile weapon (and the atl-atl dart and the thrown dart are clearly not the same thing). The Amentum is a piece of equipment that changes how a weapon is thrown.
Casual Viking: My point is nothing stops the thrown weapon from being a thrown weapon even if it's used in a projectile weapon. A light melee weapon doesn't stop being one because you've thrown it.
atlatl's dart: "An atlatl dart is the equivalent of a javelin except it has fletching. If thrown without an atlatl, treat it as a javelin." A javelin is a thrown weapon.
A "single ranged thrown weapon attack" can mean a ranged attack using a thrown weapon and those projectile weapons make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon. Or if you want to look at it as meaning a ranged attack from a weapon in the thrown weapon group, that works too as the atlatl is one of them too. [though the sling-spear wouldn't]
"single ranged thrown weapon attack" is far from an exact term.
Out of more curiosity, how would Startoss Shower work with the Ricochet Shot spell? Assuming you had a neighborhood-friendly Sorcerer bestowing it upon your Light Hammer/Javelin/Dart
It would only work with the sling, darts, and shuriken, as ricochet shot only works with projectile weapons.
And honestly, I'm not sure how it would work with that spell. Ricochet toss is somewhat vague in how you use its effects.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ergo, if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to four "bounces."
Shouldn't this be:
...if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to four "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to five "bounces."