Startoss Shower - WHOA


Rules Questions

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Sammy T wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Ergo, if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to four "bounces."

Shouldn't this be:

...if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to four "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to five "bounces."

Digging this one up out of the grave. Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?


Renlar wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Ergo, if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to four "bounces."

Shouldn't this be:

...if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to four "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to five "bounces."

Digging this one up out of the grave. Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

Yes, that is the correct interpretation. Basically Shower grants 1 additional attack than a Full-Attack action for Full BaB classes. Startoss Style chain is pretty awesome.


Startoss Comet to hit an opponent then bounce it back at you then use Deflect Arrows to deflect it back at the opponent it bounced off of?

Combine with a swarm of Eidolons using the Broodmaster archetype for Summoner and you can happily keep bouncing it to new targets and deflecting it again and again. Atleast if I interpreted it correctly.


That's not how Deflect Arrows works, Artifix, and thus that combo would not function the way you are hoping; at least not without GM judication. If this is for a home game, then you can always ask, but if you are thinking of using this for PFS, then you will be sadly disappointed.


Renlar wrote:
Sammy T wrote:

Shouldn't this be:

...if you have 5 BAB, you can make up to three attacks with the feat; once against your initial target, then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to three "bounces." At 15 BAB, you can make up to four "bounces." And at BAB 20, you can make up to five "bounces."

Digging this one up out of the grave. Does anyone know if this interpretation is correct?

Yes, that is definitely correct. Alexander Augunas just mixed the numbers up. "(...)then up to two "bounces." At 10 BAB, you can make up to two "bounces."" makes absolutely no sense and is clearly a typo. What Sammy T said is the only logical way to rule Startoss Comet.

To be 100% Precise, to maximum total number of targets you can attack is this:
Startoss Shower: 2 targets
Startoss Comet:
BAB4, 2 targets (+2 Damage from Startoss Style)
BAB5-9, 3 targets
BAB10-14, 4 targets
BAB15-19, 5 targets
BAB20, 6 targets

­
@Artifix: First, Deflect Arrows doesen't make the incoming thrown weapon bounce anywhere. Its a purely defensive feat. And second, even if you would attack your Eidolon with it and have it use Snatch Arrows, the Eidolon would attack you with the weapon, because you are the "original attacker". Also, in case you meant Ricochet Toss, the returning weapon is no attack and doesn't trigger Deflect Arrows.


Faelyn wrote:
That's not how Deflect Arrows works, Artifix, and thus that combo would not function the way you are hoping; at least not without GM judication. If this is for a home game, then you can always ask, but if you are thinking of using this for PFS, then you will be sadly disappointed.

"Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged attack doesn't count as an action."

Maybe not for more then 1 extra bounce, but couldn't you at least bounce it once off yourself?


Reading Startoss Shower and Comet. I guess you would deflect it to yourself as it is determining cover not the thrower.

However would it be possible to use Snatch Arrows to achieve the same outcome?

Also with Deflect Arrows does that mean you would just hit it at yourself?


Artifix wrote:
Maybe not for more then 1 extra bounce, but couldn't you at least bounce it once off yourself?

Sure, you could use one of the secondary attacks from Startoss Comet or Shower to attack yourself and then use Deflect Arrows to deflect it. The result would be that your weapon would probably fall down in an adjacent square. If you have Snatch Arrows, you could even catch your own weapon, but you couldn't use Snatch Arrows to then throw it towards an enemy because you are the original attacker, regardless of where the weapon bounced off.

Deflect Arrows doesn't make the attack bounce off you. Your Chakram is not a laser beam that you redirect with a mirror. Think of Deflect Arrows as a free to use once-per-round Fickle Winds spell. For a more visual thing, This is what Deflect Arrows does (Neo can ignore the once per round limitation Chosen One OP - nerf plz).


Derklord wrote:
Artifix wrote:
Maybe not for more then 1 extra bounce, but couldn't you at least bounce it once off yourself?

Sure, you could use one of the secondary attacks from Startoss Comet or Shower to attack yourself and then use Deflect Arrows to deflect it. The result would be that your weapon would probably fall down in an adjacent square. If you have Snatch Arrows, you could even catch your own weapon, but you couldn't use Snatch Arrows to then throw it towards an enemy because you are the original attacker, regardless of where the weapon bounced off.

Deflect Arrows doesn't make the attack bounce off you. Your Chakram is not a laser beam that you redirect with a mirror. Think of Deflect Arrows as a free to use once-per-round Fickle Winds spell. For a more visual thing, This is what Deflect Arrows does (Neo can ignore the once per round limitation Chosen One OP - nerf plz).

I was thinking more like ricocheting a bullet. Anyway, could you continue Startoss Style after Deflecting it?


Reading up on Overwatch Style makes me wonder. Could you set up a attack that bounces using Startoss Style as part of your attacks you set up using Overwatch Style?


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Artifix wrote:
Reading up on Overwatch Style makes me wonder. Could you set up a attack that bounces using Startoss Style as part of your attacks you set up using Overwatch Style?

You would get the bonus damage from Startoss Style if you were in both Overwatch and Startoss Style, but you could not use Overwatch Style and Startoss Comet together. My RAW-fu has been weak lately, but I believe the readied attacks from Overwatch Style are normal Attack actions, not special attacks like Vital Strike or Startoss Comet.


Xethik wrote:
Artifix wrote:
Reading up on Overwatch Style makes me wonder. Could you set up a attack that bounces using Startoss Style as part of your attacks you set up using Overwatch Style?
You would get the bonus damage from Startoss Style if you were in both Overwatch and Startoss Style, but you could not use Overwatch Style and Startoss Comet together. My RAW-fu has been weak lately, but I believe the readied attacks from Overwatch Style are normal Attack actions, not special attacks like Vital Strike or Startoss Comet.

Ah. So not even Master of Many Styles can use both, as you can't use special attacks for Overwatch? Or even if you could, would each bounce count as an attack from Overwatch?


Artifix wrote:
I was thinking more like ricocheting a bullet. Anyway, could you continue Startoss Style after Deflecting it?

Nope, the trigger condition for Startoss Shower is "hit an opponent", your deflected attack qualifies as neither.

Regarding Overwatch Style: The style is not a trigger but a seperate action. You could ready the Startoss Comet standard action via the normal "ready" action, or you could use the special action provided by Overwatch Style, but not both. Think of it as Cleave and Vital Strike.

The only way I can think of to use Startoss Style more than one in a single round would be Monk of the Four Winds' Slow Time ability (I think most feats count as extraordinary abilities).


I'm pretty sure this style chain gives 1 additional attack than you guys think.

STARTOSS SHOWER
You can strike multiple opponents with thrown weapons.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Startoss Comet, Startoss Style, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit(s): When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat, you can continue to make attacks against foes that are within one range increment of all previous opponents.

So Startoss Comet = 2 attacks
Startoss Comet = 3 attacks @4, 4 @5, 5 @10, 6 @15, and 7 @20

I know people are going to be like OMG OP... But, there are some very hefty "IFs" to this, first you have to hit the previous target to bounce to a new target, and there has to be another target you haven't already hit within range of all other previous targets. While at higher levels, things like distance etc increase this range it's still a limiting factor, of whether their are enough targets to fully benefit. In fact I'd say that a lot of times, you'll be losing possible attacks unless your DM just lines em up in a huge group for you knock down.


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I feel a strong necromatic aura emanating from this thread.


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Oops. I forgot to use deodorant this year. My apologies.

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