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Hi!
If a 20th level of each class was played in an all out battle who would be victorious. It would be every man for himself, no teams.
1 Who would win/survive: I think the pally or the summoner. Pally because it can tank like crazy and has crazy saves, it also has good healing/condition removal. Summoner because they have an eidolon and can summon tons of other creatures to help. Barb and cleric may have a chance also.
2 Who would die first: I would say rouge because they are so squishy.
3 Who would kill the most opponents: I would say Blaster Wizard because of all the aoe available. Range,Lance,Pounce Barb would do pretty well also because of the sheer damage output.
4 If they had to stay alive for at least 2 months in the wild who would win then: I would say probably ranger or it still could be pally or summoner though. Ranger because they can make animals friendly, can hunt really well, and are stealthy.
What are your opinions on this. Plz say who and why they would do well.
By the way all of the characters would be played by people of an equal skill level.
Thanks!
Paladin And summoner can't possibly win. Anzyr posted a level 20 wizard, he kills them all NP
I think your understanding of the game is limited if you think surviving two months in the wilderness is hard for a level 20 character
I guess I'll post in this thread instead. But ya like Cwheezy said, no Summoner or Paladin on the planet has even a prayer against Arkalion (Level 20 Diviner Wizard).
Copied from other thread:
Summoner has a chance (but won't win). Paladin is boned though.
Assuming high system mastery and not taking into account archetypes the top slots at 20th level would be:
Nature Oracle
Wizard (Diviner)
Sorcerer
Shaman
Psychic (Not familiar enough, but rough estimate)
Witch
Cleric
Summoner
Druid
Nothing else has even a remote chance. Full casting at high system mastery leads to nothing else being able to compete. And Nature Oracle being on the top is not a typo.
Could I see the build of Arkalion plz.
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Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
Senses: Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., scent, true seeing
Aura - Unholy Aura, Protective Aura
DR 10/evil
Defense:
AC: 63 (10 + 6 Armor + 13 Dex + 7 Shield* (MV) +5 Deflection* (SoF), +2 Luck* (US) +20 Natural +1 Insight -1 Size)
HP: 540 (24d10+408)
Fortitude: +37(39) (6 +17 Stat +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Reflex: 33(35) (6 +13 Stat, +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Will: 42(44) (12 +9 Stat, +4(6) Resistance + 6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence +2 DM +4 Insight)
Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
+2 v. enchantment spells and effects
Str: 44 (33 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)
Dex: 36 (21 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Con: 45 (32 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Int: 43 (18 +2 Race +3 Age +5 Level +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Wis: 30 (14 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Cha: 21 (7 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)
BAB: +10; CMB: 27; CMD: 40
Active Spells, Greater Angelic Aspect, Magic Vestments x2 (Solars), Shield of Faith (Solar),
Unwilling Shield (linked to 1 Solar), True Seeing, Extended Aroden's Spellbane
(2 days ago, 56 hour duration), Extended Aroden's Spellbane (1 day ago, 56 Hour duration)
Spellbane spells: Antimagic Field, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure.
Extended Magic Jar (Cast 2 days ago 56 hour duration), Extended Magic Jar (cast 1 day ago 56 hour duration)
Extended Ice Body, Greater Heroism, Moment of Greatness (Efreet), Heightened Awareness, Anticipate Peril,
Extended Fickle Winds, Invisibility Purge (Solar), Death Knell (Duplicated with Limited Wish) on a failed spawn.
Speed: 30 ft. 60 Ft. Fly (Perfect)
Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored
Feats: Scribe Scroll (W1), Improved Initiative (1), Spell Focus (Evocation) (3), Fast Study (W5),
Craft Wondrous Item (5), Sacred Geometry (Quicken, Dazing) (7), Extend Spell (9), Quicken Spell (W10),
Spell Penetration (11), Greater Spell Penetration (13), Sacred Geometry (Persistent, Empower) (15),
Opposition Research (Evocation) (W15), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (17), Maximize Spell (19), Immortality (W20)
Skills: 20 Ranks in:
Acrobatics +40 / Bluff +32 / Disguise +32 / Diplomacy +32 / Escape Artist +40 Fly +40
Knowledge (Arcana), (Dungeoneering), (Engineering), (Local), (Nature), (Planes), (Religion) +43
(20 +16 Int +3 CS +3 Morale +3 Luck +1 COmpetence) / Perception +44
Sense Motive + 37 / Stealth +33 / Spellcraft +43 / Use Magic Device +32
Languages: Common, Elven, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Undercommon
Special Qualities: Dual-Minded
Permanent Spells: Arcane Sight, Tongues, Darkvision, See Invisibiliy, Read Magic, Telepathic Bond (Tzitzimitlx5)
Telepathic Bond (Solar)
Weapons: +1 Courageous, Dueling Living Steel Large Spiked Gauntlet (22,010 GP)
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) x2
Armor: +1 Deathless, Ghost Touch, Heavy Fortification Living Steel Haramaki (100,506 GP)
Clawhand Shield
Items: Headband of Mental Superiority +6, Belt Of Physical Perfection +6, Otherworldly Kimono, Handy Haversack,
Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone,
Wayfinder (Clear Spindle Ioun Stone), Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone,
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Greater Ring of Inner Fortititude, Ring of Freedom of Movement,
Lens of Figment Piercing, Quick Runner's Shirt, Necklace of Adaption, Goz Mask, Eversmoking Bottle,
Minor Cloak of Displacement, Glove of Storing, Bead of Karma x2, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x3, Blessed Book x2
Rod of Absorption (0/50 stored levels), Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess, Spellguard Bracers, Featherstep Slippers,
Spirit Jars, Amulet of Natural Armor, Stone of Alliance, Lantern of Revealing, Eyes of the Eagle, Bag of Holding I,
Concealing Pocket, Pearl of Power 9th x2
Greensting Scorpion Familiar. In Concealing Pocket.
Spell Component Pouch x 30
10,000 Sheets of Paper
100 Vials of Ink
100 Vials of Glowing Ink
100 GP worth of Sacks (for Rune storage)
Gold: 3,371
Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)
1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
Infernal Healing, Ant Haul, Shield
2nd: Rope Trick, Create Pit, Summoner Monster II, Mirror Image
3rd: Haste, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Paragon Surge
4th: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Eyes of the Void
5th: Teleport, Summon Monster V, Magic Jar, Permanency
6th: Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport, Summon Monster VII, Simulacrum, Limited Wish
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Summoner Monster VIII, Maze, Clone
9th: Greater Create Demiplane, Wish, Time Stop, Gate, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction
Spellbooks:
Book of Harms (900 GP): (Also in both Blessed Books)
3rd—fireball, lightning bolt
2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind
1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
shocking grasp
Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)
4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape
3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow
2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind
1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
unseen servant
0—standard plus drench, spark
Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:
1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
Detect Secret Doors, See Alignment, True Strike, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image,
Vanish, Crafter's Fortune, Expeditious Retreat, Gravity bow, Liberating Command, Feather Fall, Reduce Person
2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
Continual Flame, Contingent Action, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Command Undead, False Life, Spectral Hand,
Limp Lash, Make Wole, Masterwork Transformation, Sculpt Simulacrum, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Bear's Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Aram Zey's Focus
3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
Mad Monkeys, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Seek Thoughts, Heroism, Wind Wall, Displacement, Deathwine,
Marionette Possession, Vampiric Touch, Beast Shape I, Blink, Fly, Monstrous Physique I, Shrink Item,
Undead Anatomy
4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
Contingent Scroll, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Symbol of Slowing, Emergency Force Sphere, Ball Lightning
5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
Telepathic Bond, Geyser, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Angelic Aspect, Fabricate, Fickle Winds,
Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Absorb Toxicity, Echolocation
6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
Battlemind Link, Unwilling Shield, Sonic Form
7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
Waves of Ecstasy, Hungry Darkness, Project Image, Symbol of Weakness, Waves of Exhaustion, Ethereal Jaunt,
Ice Body, Circle of Clarity
8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Greater Angelic Aspect, Polymorph Any Object
9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Mass Suffocation, Etherealness, Shapechange, Dominate Monster
Components & Focuses x2 (10420):
1,000 GP Diamond - Protection from Spells
1,000 GP Cold Iron SCepter - Aroden' Spellbane
500 GP Forked Metal Rod - Greater Create Demiplane
100 GP Crytal Lens - Circle of Clarity
1,500 GP Ivory Statuette of Self - Contingency
1000 GP Silver Mirror - Scrying
100 GP Platinum Quill - Contingent Scroll
10 GP Minature Shovel - Create Pit
It should be noted that this build uses the Ultimate Campaign rules for determining WBL with Crafting feats (Arkalion has two for the max of +50% WBL) and that this was designed pre-Courageous nerf, so some of the numbers need adjusted and some gold needs put back into his pocket.
Paladin And summoner can't possibly win. Anzyr posted a level 20 wizard, he kills them all NP
I think your understanding of the game is limited if you think surviving two months in the wilderness is hard for a level 20 character
I guess I'll post in this thread instead. But ya like Cwheezy said, no Summoner or Paladin on the planet has even a prayer against Arkalion (Level 20 Diviner Wizard).
Copied from other thread:
Summoner has a chance (but won't win). Paladin is boned though.Assuming high system mastery and not taking into account archetypes the top slots at 20th level would be:
Nature Oracle
Wizard (Diviner)
Sorcerer
Shaman
Psychic (Not familiar enough, but rough estimate)
Witch
Cleric
Summoner
DruidNothing else has even a remote chance. Full casting at high system mastery leads to nothing else being able to compete. And Nature Oracle being on the top is not a typo.
I would like to say that special mention goes to the Mesmerist...mostly due to the 'eternal slave' thing (which is a rider effect on just about any other spell from half their spell list) combined with methods of reducing enemy will saves. A bit of luck, and they might get some notable back up.
The ability to reduce enemy spell DCs also gives them a nice advantage, along with their ability to get Cha to saves.
Overall...swingy. Luck based, really. Done well, and they might get the wizard as a thrall. Done poorly, and they are pounced by the druid. They are very team based, so it all depends on whether they can luck out and dominate a team.
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Thanks so much!
That build makes tarrasques cry :)
Who wins? Typically the guy that gets initiative. Because DPS only occurs if you get a S to DP.
1)Wizard
2)not wizard
3)Wizard, more so if you count a dominated person's damage as their damage.
4)Wizard, You can teleport anywhere you want. But if you HAD to stay out, you have spells for that.
Who wins? Typically the guy that gets initiative. Because DPS only occurs if you get a S to DP.
So the Diviner who gets 78
Who wins? Typically the guy that gets initiative. Because DPS only occurs if you get a S to DP.So the Diviner who gets 78
Not necessarily, since other classes have great options that can give them initiative as well.
Sure, diviners have an edge, but it isn't abolsute. Just very. very likely.
A sohei that uses pummeling style and an agile AoMF, for instance, might be able to give them some trouble (pouncing, fairly good damage, high initiative, perfect saves).
Not saying that sohei would likely win out over all the other classes, but he might at least take out the wizard if they just randomly bump into eachother.
I guess it also depends on the style of this whole set up. While the title says 'arena', the original post goes into a long endurance thing in a wide area. There is an implication that everyone is wandering around for weeks before getting into a fight. So, while I am not a wizard expert by any stretch, that still presents a VERY different picture than a straight arena or dungeon run (where you can just dump a ton 1 to 10 min/level buffs and dominate).
Oh, wizard has some serious advantages, but it isn't as absolute when there aren't basic game design cues or all day meatshields to block charge lanes.
Who wins? Typically the guy that gets initiative. Because DPS only occurs if you get a S to DP.So the Diviner who gets 78Not necessarily, since other classes have great options that can give them initiative as well.
Sure, diviners have an edge, but it isn't abolsute. Just very. very likely.
A sohei that uses pummeling style and an agile AoMF, for instance, might be able to give them some trouble (pouncing, fairly good damage, high initiative, perfect saves).
Not saying that sohei would likely win out over all the other classes, but he might at least take out the wizard if they just randomly bump into eachother.
I guess it also depends on the style of this whole set up. While the title says 'arena', the original post goes into a long endurance thing in a wide area. There is an implication that everyone is wandering around for weeks before getting into a fight. So, while I am not a wizard expert by any stretch, that still presents a VERY different picture than a straight arena or dungeon run (where you can just dump a ton 1 to 10 min/level buffs and dominate).
Oh, wizard has some serious advantages, but it isn't as absolute when there aren't basic game design cues or all day meatshields to block charge lanes.
You mean I can't have my Gated creatures and summons and flight and invisability?
You mean I can't have my Gated creatures and summons and flight and invisability?
Depends: do you have 10,000 gp of "rare incense and offerings" on hand? Do you have the random things required by outsiders as payment for long term service (ie- over the implied months of the original post's set up)?
This is why trying to set up these kind of things can be tricky, since some options make assumptions about resources which are typically meant to be pooled form the party and meant for a party dynamic. So should you be allowed a large stash of raw goods in order to gain a massive lead over the other classes?
Even if we begin to discuss the assumed wealth, and talking about how martials need magic weapons and such, wizards don't want to go without their resistence cloaks and boosting headbands either. Various wands, scrolls, and rods.
I dunno what else to do with my 880000gp
or blood money
Which is going to be one of the balancing concerns if you are setting this up.
That 800k is the 'just let them be gods level' of assumption. Should you allow characters that much money to the extent that they can just throw it around like crazy?
That is what the rules say so the answer is yes.
We are already breaking core assumptions going with a bunch of characters going 1 on 1 without teams. Why keep the gold assumption when it unduly gives some characters specific benefits?
you mean benefits like their class features?
So wizards are unduly given use of their class features or what
And some classes are denied the benefits of their class features by this set up.
Anything buff focused like bards. Rogues have no one to flank with. Debuffers that work best to set up for tohers, like witches (mostly worrying about the fact that they need a turn to evil eye to tank saves, and then a round to kill with hexes/spells, when normally the thing would be killed the same turn by an allied wizard/sorcerer with SoD; ie- their action economy is nowhere as good alone).
So yes, this set up is not exactly "fair". So I think you will just have to get by with you other couple dozen level 9 spells. Oh how will you ever manage? The injustice. The tragedy.
I think you have this wrong. You are not denying rogues sneak attack, but you are removing a wizard class feature. Flanking is not a class feature of rogues
Also bards can buff themselves???
Yes, but after the suprise round, rogues have serious problems getting sneak attack, their primary damage features, without flanking. Perhaps a feint build... but seriously, there are reasons why rogues were so reviled on this board, and that comes from the fact that they couldn't do well without back up in the core version.
Also buffing one character and buffing three has very different weight to them.
In a team fight, if the bard spends his first action casting haste, that is great, since it means the entire party is buffed, allowing them defensive and offensive bonsues. That is why haste is a 'good' spell.
In this solo fight system...bard buffs himself with haste, and then he gets pounced eaten by the wildshaped druid, or SoD'ed by the wizard. And now no one is hasted, since he is dead. In a team fight, there would still be the rest of the party members there with the buff on them, and they can then use that to leverage a win.
This is a common problem across many multi-party member RPGs- some buffs might not be worth the wasted time, when that time could be used killing the other side. Bards suffer from that a lot when it comes to this 1 on 1 stuff. They are designed to make up for that by buffing multiple party members at the same time, typically.
ok, and? This wasn't about making a fair arena, it is asking who would win in an arena
And no one said how much money each person was walking in with in the arena.
That is usually one of the first things that gets mentioned when I see people setting up PbP arenas.
But yes- we just come into this with fairly different assumptions. I typically do day to day, using primarily the resources that they can continually keep on hand. You prefer having your decked out with more temporary elements. I don't think either is necessarily right or wrong.
This would typically require more definite rules for this deathbattle. The fact that this is called 'arena' when there was a quick change to long term use confuses the issue.
The initiative thing has been done many times before....
Divine Strategist with Tactics Inquisition and all the usual buffs comes out on top
88000 just like a normal 20th level character
no teleporting out of the arena by the way and no gating in either. basic summons are allowed.
and obviously these wizards have never met a good range lance pounce barb in the beginning of combat before they put up all their buffs.
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
Where are you getting the Harbinger Body from? How?
The winner is the guy who brings loaded dice.
Where are you getting the Harbinger Body from? How?Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
Drakainia Simulacrum's Birth Spawn ability. In a perfect world, it'd be a favored spawn, but the above stats are without a random mutation.
The winner is the guy who brings loaded dice.
Loaded Dice help surprisingly little against Arkalion.
Drakainia Simulacrum's Birth Spawn ability. In a perfect world, it'd be a favored spawn, but the above stats are without a random mutationWhere are you getting the Harbinger Body from? How?Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
Wait...there are mechanics here that I cannot even begin to imagine how someone uses
Isn't the birth spawn more of a...punishment that bursts out of your chest? As in, it is a monster that bursts out of a player character's chest? How are you getting that on your character as an actual option?
Am I looking at a half dragon half celestial half elf? Or some weird campaign thing that shouldn't be expected in general gameplay?
Drakainia Simulacrum's Birth Spawn ability. In a perfect world, it'd be a favored spawn, but the above stats are without a random mutationWhere are you getting the Harbinger Body from? How?Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
Wait...there are mechanics here that I cannot even begin to imagine how someone uses
Isn't the birth spawn more of a...punishment that bursts out of your chest? As in, it is a monster that bursts out of a player character's chest? How are you getting that on your character as an actual option?
Am I looking at a half dragon half celestial half elf? Or some weird campaign thing that shouldn't be expected in general gameplay?
As a full-round action, a drakainia can give birth to a spawn, which is a Large or smaller creature of her choice with a single random mutation. Each day she can produce any number of creatures whose combined total base CR does not exceed 3 + her Constitution modifier (usually 21).
The Daemon body is Large and CR 21. Therefore, a valid spawn choice.
also thanks to Occult Adventure the possession spell possibilities are more vast
Clearly the rogue would be the last one standing, because the Rogue wouldn't try to fight.
And Nature Oracle being on the top is not a typo.
What gives him an edge over the other caster even accounting for the spontaneous spellcasting generally being inferior to prepared?
I never looked in depth into the Nature Mystery so I'm curious
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Mostly this:
Initiative - Goes First
HP - More then all the bestiary entries combined.
AC - Only hit on 20 (maybe)
CMD - Higher then any CMB
Saves - Only fails on a 1 (maybe)
Save DC - Only Natural 20's need apply
CHA - Pick a 9 digit or higher number of your choice.
This is made possible thanks to the Nature Oracle's level 20 ability, which allows you to change your *type* once per day. This allows you to become an animal, drain your INT below 3 and then casting Maximized Awaken for 18 INT, +3 CHA, and +2 HD. Unfortunately, now you are a magical beast and thus can't be the target of any further Awaken spells. Until tomorrow when you can change your type back to Animal. By repeating this process and using many of the CHA to X abilities like Noble Scion (War) feat, Nature's Whispers, Bestow Grace of the Champion, Celestial Obedience (Arshea), etc. you get your absurdly high CHA to just about everything on top of your now incredibly high HD.
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
The Daemon body is Large and CR 21. Therefore, a valid spawn choice.
Ok, maybe I am misunderstanding WHAT this is being used for.
What is this spawn doing. I am seeing a lot of initiative stuff, which is somehow making me think it is applied to your wizard.
Can you explain what you are doing, and what advantages it brings, because you are just throwing random numbers from my perspective.
Is this spawn being used as a minion? The source for some weird, pun pun esque ability theft? I am starting to think this is pun punning.
Is this something that any rational GM would ever allow? Is this the creation of a Simulacrum of a mythical creature you never met (and if you did meet, you would probably be murdered via baby)? IS this the use of biological functions of a magical snow sculpture? Does this arena have to have rules against bringing in mythical Simulacrums and using godlike bodies?
Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle
N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)
Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))
The Daemon body is Large and CR 21. Therefore, a valid spawn choice.Ok, maybe I am misunderstanding WHAT this is being used for.
What is this spawn doing. I am seeing a lot of initiative stuff, which is somehow making me think it is applied to your wizard.
Can you explain what you are doing, and what advantages it brings, because you are just throwing random numbers from my perspective.
Is this spawn being used as a minion? The source for some weird, pun pun esque ability theft? I am starting to think this is pun punning.
Is this something that any rational GM would ever allow? Is this the creation of a Simulacrum of a mythical creature you never met (and if you did meet, you would probably be murdered via baby)? IS this the use of biological functions of a magical snow sculpture?
The spawn is being used (as mentioned) as a body. Arkalion never actually fights in his own body and uses Magic Jar (with Spirit Jars to boot) to co-opt better ones. I see no problem with a Simulacrum being made of a mythical creature, since it is something that can be easily identified via Knowledge Skills. And the rules allow it, so whether a given GM would or not is kind of irrelevant.
The spawn is being used (as mentioned) as a body. Arkalion never actually fights in his own body and uses Magic Jar (with Spirit Jars to boot) to co-opt better ones. I see no problem with a Simulacrum being made of a mythical creature, since it is something that can be easily identified via Knowledge Skills. And the rules allow it, so whether a given GM would or not is kind of irrelevant.
They allow it in the sense that these specific things were never meant to be combined in this way, and as such the developers didn't put rules against it.
There is the general assumption that the GM would stop anything too blatantly absurd. In the terms of the legal system, the GM serves as the judge that answers questions of law, and attempts to guard against gross abuse such as this.
I've noted several different points where a GM could say 'no' using rather reasonable justifications as house rules: Simulacrums of creatures you have never seen, the HEAVY reliance on the biological functions of a copy made of snow, the use of Simulacrums of high tier mythic creatures (who are designed outside of the CR system using tier that didn't exist when Simulacrum was written, and as such the spell was never balanced for it), bringing mythic rules (designed for mythic parties) into a game which has not been allowed mythic tiers, and just plain general principle.
Even if this was allowed, from the general spirit of this challenge is that you shouldn't bring minions (that aren't class features, like eidolons) into the arena or go around buying minions. And even if you were allowed to make this mythical Simulacrum during the arena (a challenge, since it is 12 hours, and people are trying to murder you), you would still need to first defeat an opponent and create a spawn. If you get snuck up on and oneshotted (and I am sure there are DPR olympics for that stuff) before you get your punpunned intitiative score, then this was all a waste.
On top of that, you also have to deal with the fact that your body is helpless while magic jarred. Since, obviously, EVERYONE is going to aim for the wizard that can Pun Pun first, I am unsure whether you can insure its safety from coup de graces. Even if you have plans, you need to act those out...
Even if this was allowed, from the general spirit of this challenge is that you shouldn't bring minions (that aren't class features, like eidolons) into the arena or go around buying minions. And even if you were allowed to make this mythical Simulacrum during the arena (a challenge, since it is 12 hours, and people are trying to murder you), you would still need to first defeat an opponent and create a spawn. If you get snuck up on and oneshotted (and I am sure there are DPR olympics for that stuff) before you get your punpunned intitiative score, then this was all a waste.
On top of that, you also have to deal with the fact that your body is helpless while magic jarred. Since, obviously, EVERYONE is going to aim for the wizard that can Pun Pun first, I am unsure whether you can insure its safety from coup de graces. Even if you have plans, you need to act those out...
A few points:
1. Simulacrum is a class feature.
2. Blood Money + Wish (duplicating Simulacrum) is a Swift + Standard Action. So not even 6 seconds.
3. I would arrive at the arena in the body, via Astral Projection. These are all long duration effects, the Magic Jar alone lasts 56 hours. Or do all characters have to show up naked and unarmored and then put their gear on during the fight?
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1. It is an individual spell. Individual spells have a MUCH lower weight than an entire class feature. Ripping out a class feature can ruin a class. Ripping out 1-2 of your 9th level spells means you still have a dozen of those. Again- you will live.
2. Blood money does 500 gp of material components per points of str damage. Wish is 25,000 gp. That is 50 str damage. Are you the str based wizard? I am sure you have SOME method of getting that much str up your sleeve, but it still means you need prep work.
3. You know that would not fly. The general assumption of the arena is that you are put there in person, with your equipment on, without any spells up or precast (and certainly not pre pun puned). Anything else would just be munchkinry.
So, unless you are also a lich who left your big glowing weakness on hte plane of negative energy, I think this train of thought is about done.
PS- ...you know, I thought you meant some spell I have never heard of, but when you said "Daemon Harbinger body" you meant you were literally planning to summon up a demigod so you could then impregnate it and take over the baby's mind, weren't you?
That intial confusion had me thinking this was an actual build people could use. But no. You are just messing with god like being. Funnything- with your debuffed Drakainia, how were you going to get the daemon harbinger (a mythic being over 20 hd in its own right) into a position where you can create spawn from it?
Realistically, that Wizard's mind is off in la la land while the mage hate Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutation Warrior gets his to have his way with the body.
Realistically, that Wizard's mind is off in la la land while the mage hate Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutation Warrior gets his to have his way with the body.
Uh... how? I mean you'd need to first find a way to be able to plane shift. And then survive Arkalion's Demiplane. Ever played Return to the Tomb of Horrors? It's like that... but less fair.
Realistically, that Wizard's mind is off in la la land while the mage hate Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutation Warrior gets his to have his way with the body.Uh... how? I mean you'd need to first find a way to be able to plane shift. And then survive Arkalion's Demiplane. Ever played Return to the Tomb of Horrors? It's like that... but less fair.
Because the core rules of the challenge is that everyone is in the same place, same bat time, same bat plane. Everyone is teleported there at lvl 20 and fights without perpetration time. Sorry Batman.
EDIT: I know those rules aren't in the OP or anything, but really any arena set-up should assume them because if they don't NO ONE is going to show up to the challenge. The Face will just charm people to do it for them, the Fighter will kill a dragon and hire someone else with the reward... it makes no sense if it's a fight of who's dumb not mechanically bound pet wins.
Because the core rules of the challenge is that everyone is in the same place, same bat time, same bat plane. Everyone is teleported there at lvl 20 and fights without perpetration time. Sorry Batman.Realistically, that Wizard's mind is off in la la land while the mage hate Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutation Warrior gets his to have his way with the body.Uh... how? I mean you'd need to first find a way to be able to plane shift. And then survive Arkalion's Demiplane. Ever played Return to the Tomb of Horrors? It's like that... but less fair.
Ok... but the Wizard spends all their downtime in the Daemon body. So... what's your point? Because if no one gets preparation, then the fighters should arrive without their weapons and armor.
Ok... but the Wizard spends all their downtime in the Daemon body. So... what's your point? Because if no one gets preparation, then the fighters should arrive without their weapons and armor.Because the core rules of the challenge is that everyone is in the same place, same bat time, same bat plane. Everyone is teleported there at lvl 20 and fights without perpetration time. Sorry Batman.Realistically, that Wizard's mind is off in la la land while the mage hate Eldritch Guardian Martial Master Mutation Warrior gets his to have his way with the body.Uh... how? I mean you'd need to first find a way to be able to plane shift. And then survive Arkalion's Demiplane. Ever played Return to the Tomb of Horrors? It's like that... but less fair.
Point A: A Simulacrum is Illusionary.
Point B: You want it to count as armor, okay, it now counts against your wealth. Everyone else is brought up to your wealth value and owns freaking dragons and stuff. One guy bought out the DM and is playing a True Dragon with 20 Class levels.Point C: I can think of about fifty different ways this Wizard concept should be dead for even trying to do all this.
Point B: You want it to count as armor, okay, it now counts against your wealth. Everyone else is brought up to your wealth value and owns freaking dragons and stuff. One guy bought out the DM and is playing a True Dragon with 20 Class levels.
Point C: I can think of about fifty different ways this Wizard concept should be dead for even trying to do all this.
B- oooo....I think a daemon harbinger costs a few million gold (they are demi gods, after fall). So I do believe that gives every 5 million more gold than the wizard. I am sure you can scroll, wand, artifact, and whatever to the point that there are few functional differences between them and a wizard that filled up his spell slots for the day.
Point C- I think I would have cut this off at the drakainia or harbinger, and just said "their mythic power/mirror of mythic power causes them to break from your control and murder you". I realize that it is kinda...rocks fall... but this is a situation where you are smash up cave walls so you don't have to go through the dungeon situation (ie- yeah, it seems fairly justified).
Point B: You want it to count as armor, okay, it now counts against your wealth. Everyone else is brought up to your wealth value and owns freaking dragons and stuff. One guy bought out the DM and is playing a True Dragon with 20 Class levels.
Point C: I can think of about fifty different ways this Wizard concept should be dead for even trying to do all this.B- oooo....I think a daemon harbinger costs a few million gold (they are demi gods, after fall). So I do believe that gives every 5 million more gold than the wizard. I am sure you can scroll, wand, artifact, and whatever to the point that there are few functional differences between them and a wizard that filled up his spell slots for the day.
Point C- I think I would have cut this off at the drakainia or harbinger, and just said "their mythic power/mirror of mythic power causes them to break from your control and murder you". I realize that it is kinda...rocks fall... but this is a situation where you are smash up cave walls so you don't have to go through the dungeon situation (ie- yeah, it seems fairly justified).
I prefer the evil DM approach of "Yes, but-" over rocks fall. Such as having legions of hell attack, starvation, or some other quite reasonable cause of death of your body since you are spending ALL your time basically ignoring your one vulnerable point while controlling a ridiculous monster. Plus, that spell runs out sometime and let me tell you when it does your "armor" won't be terribly interested in letting you renew it...