Bat form might not work, but what about Tengu Wings and Raven Form?
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(but as this is not PFS, it's really up to the GM)
The RAW argument is definitely far too weak to rely on in PFS. I'll absolutely guarantee that at least some tables would disallow this (mine, for one).
I'd bet significant money at reasonable odds that
1) this will never make be explicitly answered by Paizo
2) if it is, paizo will say no.
Don't mistake disinterest in a thread for agreement with what the majority of posters in thread are saying. The wolf is absolutely correct.
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Contributor
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Personally, I wouldn't say either side is "absolutely correct" - it's really just which adjudication/ruling you agree more with. ^_^
My position from the start has been "Expect table variation", and I'm okay with that - I don't mind having a GM to manage the complexities of the system, especially when something isn't PFS-legal. To me, it seems reasonable to infer that the feat allows you to use it in as close a fashion as possible; however, I wouldn't blame a GM for ruling the other way.
I still kind of want to ban that feat for making humans even more OP than they already are...
I still kind of want to ban that feat for making humans even more OP than they already are...
They're allegedly "OP" because of that bonus feat, but they basically give it away, so...
I still kind of want to ban that feat for making humans even more OP than they already are...They're allegedly "OP" because of their bonus feat, but they basically give it away with this option, so...
Sure, you got to keep those pesky "unwritten rules" in mind. :)Indeed, can't have those dead people taking actions after all. ;)
Hey, until published materials say I can't take actions after death, I'm gonna keep on acting.
It is RAW, after all.
Just like this feat is. If it was supposed to work differently, it would have been written differently.
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Sure, you got to keep those pesky "unwritten rules" in mind. :)Indeed, can't have those dead people taking actions after all. ;)Hey, until published materials say I can't take actions after death, I'm gonna keep on acting.
It is RAW, after all.
Just like this feat is. If it was supposed to work differently, it would have been written differently.
In case you're really using this as a legitimate argument.
Handling PC Death: Eventually, through bad luck or bad
tactics, a player character is going to die in your game. Other
events, such as petrification, paralysis, sleep, and stunning
can have a similar effect on the game as PC death, and the
following advice should apply to those effects as well.
When a PC dies, his player no longer has any input into
the game (unless he has a cohort or other allied NPC he
can start playing). That player has to sit at the table quietly,
watching and waiting while everyone else continues to
have fun with the game.
Here is a screenshot, as this section doesn't seem to be listed on the pfsrd.
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If you want to talk about what should be there if paizo wrote with perfect clarity eitherA) the piece telling you that it goes off of change shape should have mentioned changed shape explicitly, and not mentioned it in the dreaded fluff text
Which isn't done, thus doesn't actually use Change Shape.
or
B) the feat is missing the type, duration, number of times per day it can be used. Those are some pretty big nuts and bolts you have to fill in if you read it that way.
The argument that its written as intended leans very heavily towards the change shape interpretation.
By this logic most feats wouldn't be usable by anyone. Or they could only be used once, ever. Abilities that have limits on how often you can use it, list the limit. As for duration, it specifically says it acts like a named spell. Unlike Change Shape it doesn't say you can use hold it indefinitely. Thus for duration... look at the spell. Oh, spell says 1 minute per level? Guess that's the duration then.
Type... My understanding is that if it doesn't list the type as (Su) or (Sp) then it's (Ex) for most things. Although this does mention that it acts as a spell, so probably is (Sp).
Type... My understanding is that if it doesn't list the type as (Su) or (Sp) then it's (Ex) for most things. Although this does mention that it acts as a spell, so probably is (Sp).
Change shape is (Su). Though it's not explicit that Fox shape is based on change shape, since change shape is a supernatural ability for kitsune, I would say that fox shape is also a supernatural (Su) ability of the kitsune (and of humans of kitsune heritage, for purposes of this conversation).
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The problem is that Fox Shape doesn't even mention the shapechanging ability of Kitsunes, and thus exists in a vacuum.You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.
Its not naming the change shape ability, but its definitely referencing it there.
Really? So a human with racial heritage: Kitsune who takes Fox Form doesn't have any other form then fox? What if I'm playing a high level human dragon disciple or sorcerer with dragon bloodline? I'd have two forms: Human, and Dragon. Or maybe that's three forms. Human, Dragon, and Human With Claws. Would Fox Form work then simply because I don't have "other forms"?
Except the feat lists no other requirement then "Kitsune, +3 BaB, and Cha 13". Racial Heritage lets you count as the race you picked for everything. Only drawback is you don't get that race's racial traits. But you can use any race only item for the selected race. You can take the race restricted archtype or prestige class. You can take the race restricted feats. You also count as that race for anything bad like Favored Enemies.
Magical Tails can be taken if you're human with racial heritage: Kitsune. It's not worth it though since the SLA that feat gives can't be used without the trait Kitsune Magic, which is what grants a kitsune their spell like abilities to begin with. All the human would get is a tail and being stared at a lot.
Granted, in PFS humans can't take Magical tails and Fox Form might be limited to actual kitsune only. But for non-pfs games it's perfectly legal. Fox Form reads as it's possible because of your kitsune nature, not because of any racial traits you may or may not have. Racial Heritage: Kitsune means you DO have a kitsune nature, you're just mostly human.
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Personally, I wouldn't say either side is "absolutely correct" - it's really just which adjudication/ruling you agree more with. ^_^
My position from the start has been "Expect table variation", and I'm okay with that - I don't mind having a GM to manage the complexities of the system, especially when something isn't PFS-legal. To me, it seems reasonable to infer that the feat allows you to use it in as close a fashion as possible; however, I wouldn't blame a GM for ruling the other way.
Would have to double check, but I think for PFS Fox Shape is specifically limited to only people actually playing a kitsune. Same as for PFS characters ONLY that specific race can take any racial feat from Advanced Race Guide. Thus limiting the usefulness of Racial Heritage and disallowing some fun builds.
So this entire argument is entirely for games that are NOT for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
I don't really understand why this thread is continuing on (and on and on and on...)
If it's PFS, the answer is already given: You must be kitsune to take the feat.
If it's *not* PFS, the answer (like with so many things) is whatever your GM says it is. GMs can build their world however they like (and even dismiss the kitsune race entirely). Whatever the GM decides is correct for his/her campaign.
Is there really more to argue about?
I still kind of want to ban that feat for making humans even more OP than they already are...They're allegedly "OP" because of that bonus feat, but they basically give it away, so...
...it takes away from other races either way.
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Sigh...
How many more posts to go in a circle.
You can't Tail Slap without a tail.
You can't Fox Form without the racial ability to change shape.
You can't get other spell like abilities without having a spell like ability to start from (for the tails)
You can still take these feats as a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc, but they do nothing for you.
A trait that changes out spell like abilities for the Gnome can't be taken with Adopted because you need the original spell like abilities to replace.
Here, simple formulie...
Do you have (Thing)? If yes, you can use (ability gained) If no, you can not.
The Fox Form is a no.
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...it takes away from other races either way.I still kind of want to ban that feat for making humans even more OP than they already are...They're allegedly "OP" because of that bonus feat, but they basically give it away, so...
How? At level 1 you're giving away one of your human advantages for the OPTION to take things restricted to another race and maybe some cosmetic stuff that don't do anything besides "I look like this". But you don't get the innate advantages of that other race. You've given up a big advantage of your own race. And a number of those new options you've gained might actually do nothing for you. Racial heritage: Kobold will let you take feats that give you new things to do with your tail. But you probably don't have a tail, so what's the point? Racial Heritage: Kitsune would let you take Magical Tail, but without the Kitsune Magic racial trait all you'd get is a fluffy fox tail. And I'm sure there's others.
So in exchange for new options, some of which do jack diddly for me, Racial Heritage uses up my bonus feat for being human, makes me vulnerable to Slayer weapons that would affect that additional race, makes me vulnerable to Favored Enemy for the additional race, and doesn't actually give me any of the racial benefits of that race. All it lets me do is count as that race for taking a handful of feats, an archtype or two which I may not qualify for anyway due to class, and using a handful of items (maybe).
How does this take away from other races? For that matter how is this overpowered?
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You can't Tail Slap without a tail.
You can't Fox Form without the racial ability to change shape.
You can make a tail slap attack with your tail.
The bolded part is exactly the reason everyone agrees with the fact that tail terror does not work, and why the ruling was made against it. It clearly says that you use your existing tail, not that you gain a tail.
Now, for your convenience, I'm going to paste the entire benefits section of fox shape.
You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
Please point to me where it states that you're using your racial ability to change shape.
Again, I've already addressed this very point several times. There are feats that clearly require other abilities or traits in order to function. Fox shape, as it is written, does not. All they had to do in order to make this not work with racial heritage was write "You can take the form of a fox with your change shape ability". But it does not.
Also, again, I want to point out one thing. I'm not trying to argue RAI. I am actually of the opinion that, even if they like the interaction and rule that it's legal, it wasn't originally intended to work. However, the point of this thread is not to determine who believes it should work or if the devs intended it to work. The point is to determine if it DOES, by RAW, work. So far I haven't seen any convincing written evidence.
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Sigh...
How many more posts to go in a circle.
You can't Tail Slap without a tail.
You can't Fox Form without the racial ability to change shape.
You can't get other spell like abilities without having a spell like ability to start from (for the tails)
You can still take these feats as a Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc, but they do nothing for you.
The bolded part, how do you figure? The spell like abilities requiring Kitsune Magic is because they are kitsune magic, if you don't have that trait you don't have kitsune magic. When I noticed Hero Lab wans't granting the SLA from magical tails on a test build, I asked my lodge's VO about it. His theory, and it makes sense is that since I traded that trait away, I have no access to further kitsune magic.
Fox Form has no real link to Change Shape. It's not modifying, altering, or adding to Change Shape. It's a NEW shape shifting power you develop alongside Change Shape.
Then again since this entire discussion is over something that's NOT pathfinder society legal, the final decision comes down to each individual GM. I would allow a human with racial heritage: kitsune to take Fox Shape, and it would in fact work. You wouldn't. I disagree with your reasoning, but it's your gaming group and you're GMing it.
But if you aren't the GM in your group, and he/she says it's a valid and functional option... You can't argue the other player is cheating. The GM has made a decision, live with it.
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PFS actually SPECIFICALLY bars Racial Heritage to race feats in Advanced Race Guide.I have been unable to find the specific ban to race feats in the Advanced Race Guide.
In fact, in PFS you CAN take Racial Heritage(Kitsune), you just can't get kitsune specific feats (since specific rulings regarding the source books of those feats).It's counter-intuitive. It's one thing to block people from using Racial Heritage to take Goblin Feats, but Kitsune are PFS legal.
The Additional resources doc states that the racial feats from Advanced Race Guide are only valid for those specific races. I believe it says the same for the book Fox Form is in.
This means only humans can take the human only feats from Advanced Race Guide. Only Tengu can take the tengu racial feats from the same book. if you aren't a halfling, you can't snag the halfling racial feats from Advanced Race Guide either.
On the other hand, Racial Heritage: Kitsune WOULD let you take the Kitsune Trickster rogue archtype according to the Additional Resources doc.
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My understanding is that in PFS, a Human with Racial Heritage (Kitsune) WOULD in fact be able to legally take the otherwise normally Kitsune only Feats and Options.
Racial Heritage
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer
Archetypes: all archetypes on pages 22-23; Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune characters; all feats on pages 24-25; Gods: All gods listed on pages 26-27; Other: Oni Bloodline, Void elemental school; Spells: call the void; Subdomains: Moon; Traits: all traits on pages 8-21 except Chosen Child and Rebel Leader. The boon restriction to create a kitsune, nagaji, and wayang was removed at the start of Season 6 and all three are now available for open creation.
Fox Shape
You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.
Benefit: You can take the form of a fox (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 112) whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Race Guide
To create an aasimar, dhampir, fetchling, grippli, goblin, ifrit, oread, ratfolk, samsaran, suli, sylph, tiefling, undine, or vishkanya character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation. Aasimars and tieflings that were created and had at least one xp applied before August 14, 2014, remain legal for play. The boon restriction to create a kitsune, nagaji, and wayang was removed at the start of Season 6 and all three are now available for open creation.
. . .
Kitsune: all alternate racial traits, favored class options, racial archetypes, racial feats, and magic items are legal for play.
And what exactly? Where is the issue?
That is, with Racial Heritage (Kitsune) you do count as a Kitsune for ALL purposes. Or, to be blunt, YOU ARE BOTH A HUMAN AND A KITSUNE.
So IT IS 100% legal in PFS.
Every single thing above is a direct and complete quote. I did not "leave anything out", "ignore any thing", or "not accounting for fluff".
Yes, you can play a Human with Racial Heritage Kitsune and not only take, but fully use Fox Shape.
That seems to answer everything, yes?
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The "Fluff" of the feat has been mentioned before.
"Ignore the man behind the red curtain..."
If you ignore the fact that the Kitsune is using a Shape Changing ability to shift into their human form, than any human like being can use this feat to become like the Tibbit race. This is not the intent of this feat.
They can take the feat, sure, but until that person gains an ability that allows them to innately shape shift at will, they will not be able to use the benefits of that particular feat.
Now, loosely, the Shapeshifter arctype for the Ranger may allow for this and I am sure other examples can be used. A wizard casting a polymorph spells, however, isn't enough.
Just as one can use Tail Slap with a Monkey Belt.
The "Fluff" of the feat has been mentioned before.
"Ignore the man behind the red curtain..."
And I have shown why it is unwise to project fluff into rules text. The only answer I've gotten is "sometimes It's important." To which I reply "who are you to decide that it is sometimes important?" If you're going to project this fluff into the rules for this feat, than you must do so for every feat, and as I've already shown, that breaks quite a few of them. I wasn't even looking hard when I found my examples.
Once again I must ask that someone else please actually participate in the debate, because I've been providing structural analysis of every point that you guys are making and half of it is getting ignored. I'm considering giving up on the thread soon, to be honest.
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As far as I can tell, the one and only one that is even partially related involved the Kobald Tail thing, and that was ruled no BECAUSE the Feat does not give you an actual tail, but allows you to use your tail as a natural attack. Or, in other words, the ruling was that you do not get a free tail attack for taking the Feat, because the Feat didn't actually give you a Tail (or Tail Attack) if you didn't already have one.
It doesn't really apply here because Fox Shape specifically does grant you the ability to assume the new form as part of the Feat.
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The "Fluff" of the feat has been mentioned before.
"Ignore the man behind the red curtain..."
And I have shown why it is unwise to project fluff into rules text. The only answer I've gotten is "sometimes It's important." To which I reply "who are you to decide that it is sometimes important?" If you're going to project this fluff into the rules for this feat, than you must do so for every feat, and as I've already shown, that breaks quite a few of them. I wasn't even looking hard when I found my examples.
Once again I must ask that someone else please actually participate in the debate, because I've been providing structural analysis of every point that you guys are making and half of it is getting ignored. I'm considering giving up on the thread soon, to be honest.
It's also worth noting, in PFS, you can legally ignore the fluff of Feats, Traits, etc. . .
You can play the Pregen Kyuss instead of Kyra
You do not have to have ever sat foot near a river to take River Rat, nor do you need to have worked for pirates, like rats, or whatever else. You can alter it as needed to fit your character.
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Read the Thunder and Fang feat.
Tell me, why would anyone think that one can wield 2 Two Handed weapons and Two Weapon Fight with them? Why would they think that they can wield an oversized Two Handed Weapon with this feat?
Because they ignored the "fluff."
Take the feat in it's total, don't pick and choose.
About the "Tail" in tail slap, some in that thread wanted to use their booty "tail" to use the feat with. There was even an discussion about real tails on humans (called something, not like an actual tail like what a Kobold would have) that got pretty heated.
This is about the same discussion with a different feat. We even had one of the developers come in and weigh in on the subject, saying that some common sense would need to be used when getting the Racial Heritage feat or the Adopted Trait.
Don't have (thing)? You can't use it, even if you take the feat/trait/ability/whatever. You need some way to get the (thing). (being Shape Change in this instant)
Read the Thunder and Fang feat.
Tell me, why would anyone think that one can wield 2 Two Handed weapons and Two Weapon Fight with them? Why would they think that they can wield an oversized Two Handed Weapon with this feat?
Because they ignored the "fluff."
Take the feat in it's total, don't pick and choose.
About the "Tail" in tail slap, some in that thread wanted to use their booty "tail" to use the feat with. There was even an discussion about real tails on humans (called something, not like an actual tail like what a Kobold would have) that got pretty heated.
This is about the same discussion with a different feat. We even had one of the developers come in and weigh in on the subject, saying that some common sense would need to be used when getting the Racial Heritage feat or the Adopted Trait.
Don't have (thing)? You can't use it, even if you take the feat/trait/ability/whatever. You need some way to get the (thing). (being Shape Change in this instant)
Okay, that's nice. Thunder and Fang references Earth Breakers and Klars being necessary to function. Tail Terror references using a tail to function.
Can you point to me the part where Fox Shape says you use the Change Shape racial ability?
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The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
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Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
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Your powerful jaws and steely teeth are deadly enough to give you a bite attack.
Prerequisite: Half-orc.
Benefit: You can make a bite attack for 1d4 points of damage, plus your Strength modifier. You’re considered proficient in this attack and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to it. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite is considered a secondary attack and is made at your full base attack bonus –5, and adds half your Strength modifier to damage.
Yep, no issues.
As seen by civilized races, half-orcs are monstrosities, the result of perversion and violence—whether or not this is actually true. Half-orcs are rarely the result of loving unions, and as such are usually forced to grow up hard and fast, constantly fighting for protection or to make names for themselves. Half-orcs as a whole resent this treatment, and rather than play the part of the victim, they tend to lash out, unknowingly confirming the biases of those around them. A few feared, distrusted, and spat-upon half-orcs manage to surprise their detractors with great deeds and unexpected wisdom—though sometimes it's easier just to crack a few skulls. Some half-orcs spend their entire lives proving to full-blooded orcs that they are just as fierce. Others opt for trying to blend into human society, constantly demonstrating that they aren't monsters. Their need to always prove themselves worthy encourages half-orcs to strive for power and greatness within the society around them.
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Physical Description: Half-orcs average around 6 feet tall, with powerful builds and greenish or grayish skin. Their canine teeth often grow long enough to protrude from their mouths, and these “tusks,” combined with heavy brows and slightly pointed ears, give them their notoriously bestial appearance. While half-orcs may be impressive, few ever describe them as beautiful. Despite these obvious orc traits, half-orcs are as varied as their human parents.
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Society: Unlike half-elves, where at least part of society's discrimination is born out of jealousy or attraction, half-orcs get the worst of both worlds: physically weaker than their orc kin, they also tend to be feared or attacked outright by humans who don't bother making the distinction between full orcs and half bloods. Even on the best of terms, half-orcs in civilized societies are not exactly accepted, and tend to be valued only for their physical abilities. On the other hand, orc leaders have been known to deliberately spawn half-orcs, as the half breeds make up for their lack of physical strength with increased cunning and aggression, making them natural leaders and strategic advisors. Within orc tribes, half-orcs find themselves constantly striving to prove their worth in battle and with feats of strength. Half-orcs raised within orc tribes are more likely to file their tusks and cover themselves in tribal tattoos. Tribal leaders quietly recognize that half-orcs are often more clever than their orc cousins and often apprentice them to the tribe's shaman, where their cunning might eventually strengthen the tribe. Apprenticeship to a shaman is a brutal and often short-lived distinction, however, and those half-orcs who survive it either become influential in the tribe or are eventually driven to leave.
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Half-orcs have a much more mixed experience in human society, where many cultures view them as little more than monsters. They often are unable even to get normal work, and are pressed into service in the military or sold into slavery. In these cultures, half-orcs often lead furtive lives, hiding their nature whenever possible. The dark underworld of society is often the most welcoming place, and many half-orcs wind up serving as enforcers for thieves guilds or other types of organized crime. Less commonly, human cities may allow half-orcs a more normal existence, even enabling them to develop small communities of their own. These communities are usually centered around the arena districts, the military, or mercenary organizations where their brute strength is valued and their appearance is more likely to be overlooked. Even surrounded by their own kind, half-orc life isn't easy. Bullying and physical confrontation comes easy to a people who have been raised with few other examples of behavior. It is, however, one of the best places for young half-orcs to grow up without prejudice, and these small enclaves are one of the few places where half-orc marriages and children are truly accepted and sometimes cherished.
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Even more rarely, certain human cultures come to embrace half-orcs for their strength. There are stories of places where people see half-orc children as a blessing and seek out half-orc or orc lovers. In these cultures, half-orcs lead lives not much different from full-blooded humans.
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Relations: Elves and dwarves tend to be the least accepting of half-orcs, seeing in them too great a resemblance to their racial enemies, and other races aren't much more understanding. A lifetime of persecution leaves the average half-orc wary and quick to anger, yet people who break through his savage exterior might find a well-hidden core of empathy. Human societies with few orc problems tend to be the most accommodating, and half-orcs dwelling there can often find work as mercenaries and enforcers. Even in places where there is a general tolerance for half-orcs, however, many humans mistreat them when they can get away with it.
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Half-orcs are envious of the measure of acceptance half-elves have within human and elven society and resent their physical beauty, which contrasts starkly to the half-orcs' brutish appearance. While half-orcs avoid antagonizing their half-breed cousins directly, they won't hesitate to undermine them if the opportunity presents itself.
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Of all the other races, half-orcs are most sympathetic with halflings, who often have an equally rough lot in life. Half-orcs respect the halfling's ability to blend in and disappear and admire their perpetually cheerful outlook on life in spite of hardships. Halflings fail to appreciate this fact because they usually are too busy avoiding the large, intimidating half-orcs.
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Alignment and Religion: Forced to live either among brutish orcs or as lonely outcasts in civilized lands, most half-orcs are bitter, violent, and reclusive. Evil comes easily to them, but they are not evil by nature—rather, most half-orcs are chaotic neutral, having been taught by long experience that there's no point doing anything but that which directly benefits themselves. Half-orcs worship the human or orc gods venerated in the area where they were raised. Those who live alongside humans most often worship human gods of war, freedom, or destruction. Half-orcs raised in orc tribes find themselves most drawn to the gods of blood, fire, and iron—depending more on what god the tribe worships rather than the half-orcs' personal preference. Many half-orcs are contrary about religion, either ignoring it entirely, or getting deeply involved in it and trying to find meaning in a life filled with hate and misunderstanding; even a half-orc divine spellcaster may wrestle with doubt and anger about religion and faith.
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Adventurers: Staunchly independent, many half-orcs take to lives of adventure out of necessity, seeking to escape their painful pasts or improve their lot through force of arms. Others, more optimistic or desperate for acceptance, take up the mantle of crusaders in order to prove their worth to the world. Half-orcs raised in orc societies often take up the brutish ways of those around them, becoming fighters, barbarians, or rangers. Half-orcs who survive their shaman training may eventually succeed their masters as tribal shamans, or flee the tribe and practice their magic as outcasts or explorers.
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Half-orcs are just as likely to have children that possess an innate talent for sorcery as any other race, with the abyssal, destined, and elemental (fire) bloodlines being the most common types of sorcerers. Half-orcs are fascinated by alchemy, and its destructive capabilities make its usefulness obvious in any orc tribe. Half-orc alchemists treat themselves as living experiments, even to the point of trying to separate their orc and human halves through alchemy. Other alchemists use their powers to enhance their physical abilities and thus increase their status within orc communities.
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In human societies, half-orcs have a few more options. Many find it easy to take advantage of the brute strength and work as mercenaries or caravan guards. Crime is another easy route for half-orcs, as there are plenty of criminals looking for a strong arm. Half-orc clerics in human communities are fairly rare; the more religious half-orcs more often turn to (or get pushed to) the martial aspects of religious service and become paladins or inquisitors. Half-orcs usually lack the patience and money required to become a wizard.
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Males names: Ausk, Davor, Hakak, Kizziar, Makoa, Nesteruk, Tsadok.
Female names: Canan, Drogheda, Goruza, Mazon, Shirish, Tevaga, Zeljka.
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Standard Racial Traits
•Ability Score Racial Traits: Half-orc characters gain a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
•Type: Half-orcs are Humanoid creatures with both the human and orc subtypes.
•Size: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Base Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
•Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
•Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks due to their fearsome nature.
Offense Racial Traits
•Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
•Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
Senses Racial Traits
•Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Other Racial Traits
•Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
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The "Fluff" of the feat has been mentioned before.
"Ignore the man behind the red curtain..."
And I have shown why it is unwise to project fluff into rules text. The only answer I've gotten is "sometimes It's important." To which I reply "who are you to decide that it is sometimes important?" If you're going to project this fluff into the rules for this feat, than you must do so for every feat, and as I've already shown, that breaks quite a few of them. I wasn't even looking hard when I found my examples.
Once again I must ask that someone else please actually participate in the debate, because I've been providing structural analysis of every point that you guys are making and half of it is getting ignored. I'm considering giving up on the thread soon, to be honest.
It's also worth noting, in PFS, you can legally ignore the fluff of Feats, Traits, etc. . .
You can play the Pregen Kyuss instead of Kyra
You do not have to have ever sat foot near a river to take River Rat, nor do you need to have worked for pirates, like rats, or whatever else. You can alter it as needed to fit your character.
In any situation, the character isn't beholden to the Fluff to a point, such as locals (as you mention) and background that explains or gives a backstory to the ability. The player, however, does need to keep the context of the feat in parallel with how it works with relevent passage in the description, most commonly referred to as "fluff."
Noting, for example, that Tail Slap need a Tail, that Fox Shape need the shape change (noted by "...in addition to other forms.") and Thunder and Fang needs Earthbreaker and Klar working together.
Now, I realize that this runs counter to some things that a lot of others do with the Rules As Written, or R.A.W. That every little thing needs to be spelled out for those that want to bend and twist rules to do something that was not ever intended for it to do. I maintain that the Core Rulebook is big enough without the overlapping legaleeze needed for such an endever, and boring to read and slog through to boot. I like having products to peruse over and use for my characters instead of waiting for a fine tooth comb to go over every instant of rules and making a feat take up four pages to account for every intent and purpose and not have any "loopholes" to run a big Mack truck through.
We have different tastes in what we do with this fine game. I use common sense and know when a rule is stretched or not being use as intended. We can go back and forth on this over and over again, but the answer is the same on both sides.
I dislike the "the rules don't say that I can't" philosophy. Some live on it. Expect table variance. Hit the FAQ on the OP if you think it should be allowed. Whatever.
Just stop saying that I am wrong just because the quantifier is in the description. (Fluff)
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My understanding is that in PFS, a Human with Racial Heritage (Kitsune) WOULD in fact be able to legally take the otherwise normally Kitsune only Feats and Options.
The part in the Additional Resources Doc you missed reads as follows:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
The enter on the Dragon Empires Primer could be read either way, so I'd say ask your VO about it. But it sounds like they are limiting it to kitsune race only for PFS
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I dislike the "the rules don't say that I can't" philosophy.
I find this to be humorous, as everyone arguing that yes, humans can use this feat with Racial Heritage, are using the simple philosophy that "the rules say I can, so I can."
Those arguing against it are using the philosophy "the rules say you can, but you actually can't."
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Well, you know, maybe that vague fluff text, and hidden restrictions, could make it not work.
I mean, by some of the poster's here standards.
Maybe.
I am trying to see what is the baseline for how those who disagree.
What is truly required for the Racial Heritage feat to function?
Depending on how far these hidden restriction go, based off vague fluff, the feat might not work with any archetype, trait, spell,or magic item.
All those I mentioned have some fluff text.
What does their "common sense" cover?
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Humans (and Half-Elves) have teeth. Yep, that works.Let's try a different example.
Racial Heritage(Half-Orc), and the Razortusk feat.
Are we agreed that this combination is legal?
But it's a Razortusk feat. Are you ignoring the hidden prerequisite in the fluff name "Razortusk?" Humans and half-elves don't have tusks. Why would you assume this works, because the flavor of the feat clearly indicates otherwise?