Say a wizard of 17th level has a natural intelligence of 18. His only intelligence boosting item is his trusty headbank of +6 intelligence giving him a 24 total. That is now stolen. He's back at 18.
A) can he prepare 9th level spells and just not cast them.
B) if he casts fox's cunning can he cast his 9th level spells during the durationof the spell (Int 22)
You can't prepare a 9th level spell with only INT 18.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
However you have still have the slot, so you can use it to prepare a lower spell or a metamagic spell (except Heighten) using a 9th level slot.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
If he prepared them before the headband was stolen, I don't think they would disappear either so he could use temporary buffs to be able to cast them. The wizard could also have that ability that lets him fill empty slots in one minute. Similarly a sorcerer with insufficient Cha would still get spells known at level she can't cast, which she could use if her Cha was boosted.
Thanks everyone.
So specifically why I was wondering this is because I have a soon to be witch/cleric mystic theurge. I have a wisdom of like 13 or 14. I'm wondering if I can cast threefold aspect before I prepare spells every day and get my higher level cleric spells. (I'm not asking the old 'do I get extra spells' question to be clear.)
So based on what your saying if I have a temporary bonus while preparing and while casting I can do so, but it would have to be before I prepare?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I don't see why not. You would just have to have the temporary bonus last long enough to cover the entire duration that is required to prepare your spells.
It's actually pretty cool flavor-wise too. You have to go into super-wizard mode to cast your big spells.
I don't know if it's an official rule or just a house rule I've seen, but I have always played that your ability bonus had to be in effect for 24 hours to affect the spell levels one can prepare and cast. This allows headbands and such to affect spell levels, but not Owl's Wisdom or other temporary boosts. That also means that a character does not get an immediate boost in spell slots after putting on the item, but has to wait a day for everything to "settle in."
I don't know if it's an official rule or just a house rule I've seen, but I have always played that your ability bonus had to be in effect for 24 hours to affect the spell levels one can prepare and cast. This allows headbands and such to affect spell levels, but not Owl's Wisdom or other temporary boosts. That also means that a character does not get an immediate boost in spell slots after putting on the item, but has to wait a day for everything to "settle in."
It's official, not just a house rule:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Temporary Bonuses
(skipping a few)
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
So the OP's wizard with an 18 INT could cast Fox's Cunning to get a temporary +4 bonus, but that only applies to skill checks and spell DCs - it doesn't count as having a 22 INT when preparing or casting spells.
I don't know if it's an official rule or just a house rule I've seen, but I have always played that your ability bonus had to be in effect for 24 hours to affect the spell levels one can prepare and cast. This allows headbands and such to affect spell levels, but not Owl's Wisdom or other temporary boosts. That also means that a character does not get an immediate boost in spell slots after putting on the item, but has to wait a day for everything to "settle in."It's official, not just a house rule:.
But overridden by a FAQ:
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
(Emphasis OQ)
So, yes, you can memorize spells under a Fox's Cunning spell, but you lose the ability to cast them after the spell runs out (because you also need the ability score to cast them).
So as per the FAQ, if you have enough duration, you cod cast a spell, boost your int, memorize higher level spells (obviously only in slots you have), but you can't cast them, unless you use that spell again to "unlock" them. Right?
Seems like it could make for an interesting character thing, locking say spells for 'just in case' moments.
Even given the FAQ, I still prefer DM-Blake's take on it. It does away with the: "I can make myself smart enough to memorize it but not be able to cast it in a few minutes unless I cast it again" dynamic Blindmage just gave as an example.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
But overridden by a FAQ:
So, yes, you can memorize spells under a Fox's Cunning spell, but you lose the ability to cast them after the spell runs out (because you also need the ability score to cast them)
With or without the FAQ, you will see table variance on this subject.
The FAQ doesn't discuss how the "you can do it" works when you lose the bonus in between. You may be able to memorize while under Owl's Wisdom, but if you lose that in between memorization and casting, does that invalidate the memorization?
I'd say it does and nothing in the FAQ or rules says otherwise.
The stat boosting spells last one minute per level. Even with extend metamagic, that's not going to cover the hour you need to prepare or pray for spells.
Yes it would, just not your initial preperations, you can prepare spells in 15 minutes if you have open spell slots.
Also about losing the slots when you lose the score, would you rule the same with damage or drain? I think not.
The stat boosting spells last one minute per level. Even with extend metamagic, that's not going to cover the hour you need to prepare or pray for spells.
The OP is asking about using Threefold Aspect to boost his WIS for a 24 hour duration.
Also, I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread that a wizard could fill an empty slot as quickly as one minute, though off the top of my head I don't know which ability they were referencing.
The FAQ doesn't discuss how the "you can do it" works when you lose the bonus in between. You may be able to memorize while under Owl's Wisdom, but if you lose that in between memorization and casting, does that invalidate the memorization?
I'd say it does and nothing in the FAQ or rules says otherwise.
Well, the rules say that "[t]o learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."
I don't see the word "remember" in that list. The rules are fairly clear on what they prohibit.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I don't see the word "remember" in that list. The rules are fairly clear on what they prohibit.
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
Also, some advice:
If someone chooses to go down a very pedantic way to parse the rules then when the FAQ comes down to clarify it doesn't work the pedantic way, you might find yourself wondering why they nerfed your cool rule. Hint: They didn't nerf it, they clarified you were reading it wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A vote for the ever popular ask your GM!
It is the only way to get an actual answer which matters.
But overridden by a FAQ:
So, yes, you can memorize spells under a Fox's Cunning spell, but you lose the ability to cast them after the spell runs out (because you also need the ability score to cast them)
With or without the FAQ, you will see table variance on this subject.
The FAQ doesn't discuss how the "you can do it" works when you lose the bonus in between. You may be able to memorize while under Owl's Wisdom, but if you lose that in between memorization and casting, does that invalidate the memorization?
I'd say it does and nothing in the FAQ or rules says otherwise.
Would you likewise rule that a character struck by a touch of idiocy spell forgets all the spells it can no longer cast based on its new score?
|
I don't know if it's an official rule or just a house rule I've seen, but I have always played that your ability bonus had to be in effect for 24 hours to affect the spell levels one can prepare and cast. This allows headbands and such to affect spell levels, but not Owl's Wisdom or other temporary boosts. That also means that a character does not get an immediate boost in spell slots after putting on the item, but has to wait a day for everything to "settle in."It's official, not just a house rule:.But overridden by a FAQ:
...
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
So a temporary bonus don't increase the score
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
and you need a score of 19 to cast 9th level spells.
The FAQ speak of "stats", saying:
"A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."
Stats is an undefined term, but it usually refer to derivate statistics, no the primary ability.
|
|
Would you likewise rule that a character struck by a touch of idiocy spell forgets all the spells it can no longer cast based on its new score?Penalties are different than bonuses, so no I wouldn't.
Removing a headband of Vast intelligence actually reduce your ability value, like ability drain, penalties and ability damage leave it untouched and affect the derivate stats.
As never removing your belt or headband will have some negative hygiene effect and can hamper other aspect of your life in my group we have decided that there is a 24 hours delay before the enhancement become non-permanent as long as no one use the magic item and it is nearby (a few meters).
You lose temporarily the benefit of the enhancement but you get it back as soon as you don the item.
Totally an houserule, but it make some off screen moment better.
|
|
The stat boosting spells last one minute per level. Even with extend metamagic, that's not going to cover the hour you need to prepare or pray for spells.The OP is asking about using Threefold Aspect to boost his WIS for a 24 hour duration.
Also, I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread that a wizard could fill an empty slot as quickly as one minute, though off the top of my head I don't know which ability they were referencing.
They were referencing the Fast Study arcane discovery. It allows you to prepare all your spells in 15 minutes, or a spell in one minute. There's also the Quick Preparation feat that halves the time necessary to prepare spells. So a wizard could prepare spells as quickly as 30 seconds with this feat. Or for a cleric, it would reduce it to just short enough that an extended Owl's Wisdom cast at CL 20 would be long enough to prepare spells.
Would you likewise rule that a character struck by a touch of idiocy spell forgets all the spells it can no longer cast based on its new score?Penalties are different than bonuses, so no I wouldn't.
That is a rather arbitrary ruling with no basis in the rules. That would be the equivalent of saying that haste is different than slow, so XYZ does not apply just because.
Stats is an undefined term, but it usually refer to derivate statistics, no the primary ability.
Citation or rules examples needed to support this. Stats being 'undefined' is going to make supporting this argument very difficult.
Stats refers to any numerical value on a character sheet, from ability scores to bonus spells to AC to current non-lethal damage taken. Some of those are in whole or in part derived from ability scores, but ability scores themselves are part of the stats. This from the common usage of stats (which is the appropriate usage for terms that don't gave game specific defined usage).
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
arbitrary ruling with no basis in the rules.
/boggle
The rules say damage is treated as penalties.
The rules say penalties don't reduce scores, but only apply penalties.
The rules say bonuses (with the FAQ) raise the score and all things associated like permanent bonuses do.
It is the opposite of arbitrary. It is the rules.
arbitrary ruling with no basis in the rules.
/boggle
The rules say damage is treated as penalties.
The rules say penalties don't reduce scores, but only apply penalties.
The rules say bonuses (with the FAQ) raise the score and all things associated like permanent bonuses do.
It is the opposite of arbitrary. It is the rules.
You misunderstood what I'm saying, let me be more clear. Neither says anything about forgetting spells. It is arbitrary to apply a forgetting rule to one without doing it to the other based on one being a penalty and the other a loss of a bonus. There are no rules for this.
EDIT: Same question then for a feeblemind spell. Does the target immediately lose all memorized spells? This is not specified as ability damage or drain, and does not appear to be either of them as the normal restoration methods do not work. Would it make any difference if the heal/wish was applied the turn after the feeblemind, or several days later?