Erh. This one is hard. Can you tell him, one-on-one, that he could change his character around so it's less useless?
Is this player 4 years old? Who complains that they are falling behind, receives advice on how to keep up, refuses to follow the advice and then complains that they are falling behind because they won't improve themself? No adult that I know of. No adult that I would willingly spend time with at any rate.
Headfirst is right: kick him out. He's not there to play D&D, he's there to have fun at your expense.
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I don't want people playing other games simultaneously at my table. My Campaign
Standards call this out and I would remind such a player the behavior was already banned in such. If they continued, I would give them an ultimatum, pay full attention to the game or leave. It is one thing to accept important phone calls and reply a quick text message but I don't want someone so unengeged with the game itself that they are constantly asking, so which opponent is wounded, who looks close to dead already?
Sadly, as I wrote that I began asking, where should the line be drawn, I guess I would not feel anywhere as disrespected if two players held a side conversation but that could also lead them to not really pay attention. I guess they would at least be showing interest in engaging another player, a friend or build it into a friendship. I just answered my own question, I guess the line should be engagement with someone at the table or even just a family member/roommate who also lives there. I still think it is rather disrespectful to the DM to play other games while their character is in the current scene. Of course if the party thought stealthy players should go investigate ahead while the non stealth players hung back, I might not mind in that case them pulling out that ipad game.
Does he at least enjoy hanging out with the crowd? He may be getting more of a social experience hanging out with the group then you realize.
Has your group considered letting him concentrate on a single foe so he does not waste any action and spell hurting someone only to have another player one shot kill so strongly that it would have killed from full HP?
Have you encouraged him to think outside the box and come up with unorthodox tactics that would effect things more than just damage on someone?
If his damage is a problem, does his spell list contain battlefield control spells that could be more useful to the overall flow of the combat than damage? You could throw such a spell at him in,party treasure as a scroll so even if he does not want to scribe the spell or prepare it, he still has the scroll just in case.
Maybe drop equipment that really fits the class well in a treasure hoard.
Maybe he could delay his action to finish off people who don,t go down with a one shot by another player. If he is one of those really high init maguy, delaying might be a strong turn off.
Maybe he can focus on protecting a full caster or NPC.
Has he gotten much use out of knowledge skills, languages or stealth? Look over his skills and spells( scrolls, wands, ect) and see if you can find something that springs to mind as something he can do nobody else in the group can.
Throw a monster with DR he can overcome but others cannot. Maybe make a quite deal with another player to have their weapon break a fight or 3 before with a DM assurance you will make it up to them and not hose them over to much in the meantime except for the one fight you both want the magus to shine. Make sure that player has something they can do that encounter, like concentrate on another opponent.
A: Let him play a character that's good right out of the box.
B. He learns to actually play his Magus and takes the advice given or...
C. Kick him out.
He sounds like a mopey wanker.
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If what this player wants is stuff that sounds cool (like stuff that would work in an anime episode) then recommend some effective builds and let him re-fluff them. Power Attack is now called "Nine-Dragon Style" and has a dance combo and blue sparks involved in it.
Simple solution, give him a piece of gear or unique 'ability' (granted by a god, why not?) that brings him up to the rest of the party.
If he isn't into using obscure rules combos for min-maxing, and the rest of the party is... that is what I would do.
In my last campaign I literally gave (for free, no quests, just a dream sequence) TWO of my PCs similar 'items'-one had their heart replaced with a chunk of magic coal (granted regen 1/good and +2 CON), the other got a wooden dog face embedded in their chest, granted fast heal 1, +2 WIS I think...
It made them viable characters (the one I gave regen to was a non-melee optimized cleric the player insisted on bringing into melee).
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Wow. While this forum does have a reputation for advising "dump the player, delete your facebook, and hit the gym" (no wait, that's reddit) I'd have to strongly agree about kicking this player immediately.
Assuming you've given us the whole story, the player is showing some next-level disrespect for you and the other players by disregarding excessive amounts of help and playing ipad games during a session.
His reasoning is simple: he wants to build this character by himself without any help because he's very prideful. When his builds don't work out he gets upset at the stupid game for having dumb rules and the other players for using 'OP' builds that shouldn't be allowed. To show his discontent he gets moody and plays by himself to make sure everyone knows this is a waste of his time. He can't accept help because if the character suddenly works, he's forced to admit he failed at character building and isn't the amazing gamer he believes himself to be.
If this guy is an adult, kick him from the table and stop inviting him to any gaming sessions, as he has the maturity of a teenager and will be a burden no matter what you play. If he's actually a teenager, kick him from the game but give him a chance again down the road, in case he gains some perspective and maturity from reaping negative consequences.
I wouldn't advice kicking him from the table, I would talk to him first. I can't say I'm familiar with the Kensai, I know it's a Magus archetype and the Magus is pretty awesome character class. Is the Kensai a bad/trap option?
When you talk with this player, I would recommend trying to either get him to play a simpler, more "foolproof" class, fix the Kensai, or maybe ask him if he even wants to play Pathfinder. My experience with this type of behavior in the past has been that the player was passive-aggressively trying type o get the group to change games/systems. I'm not saying that's the case here, but you should keep that in mind.
As far as thinking outside the box, that's actually part of the problem, he comes up with all kinds of combos that would work incredibly if this was an anime episode, but in cold hard Pathfinder number crunch they just aren't very good.
As to why he won't take the help, I'm not entirely sure, I've really never gotten a response that made sense. He's said that some suggestions were too complicated, or he didn't want to use some because it was "OP" yet he has about 50 conditional modifiers on his build, half of them he forgets about during combat.
Wow. The Kensai is the most anime archetype there is. You get to play a guy that walks around with no armor on, wielding a single weapon, who creates all kinds of magical effects while doing a wildly disproportionate level of damage with said weapon.
You even have flash step in the form of Bladed Dash. Seriously, half the anime characters out there, if you asked me how to build them in Pathfinder, I would start from Kensai Magus.
Level 12 is also near the peak of the Kensai power curve. The class is begging you to max out INT and DEX, and none of the other stats really matter. It boggles my mind that this has gone wrong somehow. Has this guy played the game before?
How are you at handling out of the box thinking?
You said he has come up with some good ideas that would have worked "if this were an anime episode." Have you gone back and looked for ways to allow him to achieve some of those using the "cold hard Pathfinder number crunch" as you see it?
He may be a lot less rules oriented than you are. That sort of mismatch can be difficult and frustrating on both sides as each sees all their good ideas dismissed. If you're previous attempts were all in terms of number crunch rather than flavor, that may be why he never showed any interest. If there were ways that his ideas could have worked with a different build of his character, perhaps you should help the numbers match what he is trying to do stylistically.
Spend some time thinking about some of those out of the box solutions he has come up with. Try to think of how best to represent that in the rules. Then try talking to him about it.
You said that he is a decent guy, gently point out how rude you consider his current behavior at the gaming table. Realize that not everyone sees it the same way.
Basically see if there aren't thing on both sides that can be adjusted so everyone has more fun.
It might be a case where he isn't a good fit in that game. If so, talking about it has a much better chance of ending the issues on a friendly basis.
I, and the other player in this game have spent hours looking for spell, item, and feat combos that can give him the feel and effect that he wants.
And just what is it that he wants?
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I, and the other player in this game have spent hours looking for spell, item, and feat combos that can give him the feel and effect that he wants.
I ran into something like this not to long ago. I had a player who just shrugged his shoulders and always thought my games were "meh", even when the other players were having a blast. I spent hours coming up with new stuff to cater to his tastes and even when I showed him all of this new stuff catered just for him, he said "meh". Everything had to revolve around him. The NPC's had to like him, all of his spells had to awesome effects & damage, and no matter how much of a dick he was to NPC's in game, they had to kiss his feet.
Point is, some players like to think the game revolves around them and them only. I recommend talking to him, saying that you're trying to make this more fun for him, but he also has to make it more fun for him. I would recommend simply telling him that this game is for everyone and that he has to find something he likes. Hell, maybe recommend him looking into new characters (starting at level 12 of course, like the rest of the party).
I know what it feels like to be underpowered to the rest of the party, it sucks, but that s@%&ty feeling shouldn't have to ruin the fun everyone else is experiencing. Try making him understand that.
Well as of his most recent idea he wants to gain four arms so he can two weapon fight and spell combat as well as making all his melee attacks to AoE while having a permanent spell effect to give him flanking at all times.
That is a lot of game mechanics where I was expecting more of a fluff description.
In any case, for most games that would be overpowered. It may be alright in a mythic game if that is what you are running. If it would be unbalancing for your game, then you need to point that out and (as Ghray described above) enlighten him to the group story elements that are supposed to be part of Pathfinder.
Keep in mind that the conversation may end with "I'm sorry, but I'm not looking to run the type of game you want. Have you looked for a different group that has a more compatible play style?"
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Are there any other factors in play?
1. How far does he have to travel to play in your game?
2. What kind of financial considerations does he have doing so?
3. What sort of food is typically available if any during game sessions?
4. Are there regular 'break' periods for everyone to get up and walk around and get the blood flowing?
5. Does anyone else use electronics at the table?
6. Are there personality conflicts between one or two players who are tempting to mentor this one?
7. Are the mentoring processes condescending? (ie, NO, no, you HAVE to take THIS THIS THIS AND THIS to kick butt!)
8. Does the player in question have a personal life that is in crisis?
9. How long has this player been playing with you?
10. What level of trust do you have between your players and you as GM?
11. How would you describe the gaming environment (aside from the electronic media issue)?
12. When the player does the dramatic pronouncements of ineffectiveness, what kind of tone is in his voice? Frustration? Irritation? Mirth?
Apologies for the rambling questions, those are just the ones off the top of my head...
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That's a long list but I'll try
1. About a 30 min drive
2.I don't really ask something that personal
3.we're in a store so all standard drinks and snacks plus typical take out options
4.yes smoke breaks are a regular thing
5.Most of use use laptops for our character sheets and rule books
6.Not that I have observed
7.No, however with the level of optimization by the other players, it has come down to if you want to keep up mechanically these are the options for doing so, you can do whatever you like, but it will lag behind numbers wise
8. Again personal questions that I don't pry into, and nothing has been freely shared
9. A few months
10. I would describe it as excellent over all
11. We play at a local store, so some distraction but nothing major
12.Disinterest would be the best discretion of his tone
A thirty minute drive is a reasonable investment of time, especially when one considers that a round-trip turns that into an hour.
The reason I asked about financial considerations was due to not thoroughly enjoying some games I was at in the past because I was constantly weighing the cost of playing versus the entertainment value in the back of my mind.
As far as smoking, my personal experience has changed over the years, I started out encouraging others to smoke if they wanted to, then just stopped doing that (about the time I quit smoking) and then after a particular night where everyone was reeking of cigarette so badly my lungs decided to try and take a break I faded from that group. Great people, would trust them with my bank account trust-level, but health... I just couldn't do it anymore.
As far as 'lagging behind in numbers'... I've found I'm Not Very Good at the crunch. But I've come up with a few things that make my characters notable, and they carry their weight in other regards.
Melee is tough. One-shot-ing opponents at level can be equally so, even with an optimal build.
If everyone has a laptop out, that can make it a bit tougher, as it is hard to pin down who is doing what aside from having a character sheet up and the rulebooks handy.
Part of the reason I still lug around 4-8 books for a given game event is because I DON'T want the distraction of having my laptop open in front of me (not to mention that it is *heavier* than said books)
But to go back to the 'disinterest'. If he were truly that disinterested in the game, he wouldn't invest time, gas money, and vehicle wear and tear to show up to game -- there are a lot of inexpensive entertainment options out there these days.
It may sound a bit corny, but maybe pull the fellow aside a few minutes before the next session and make sure they're doing okay (without prying for details) and try to open a dialogue?
It could be something as simple as 'not eating enough at the right time' to 'horrific personal problems at home and this is the escape time'. But without the expression of concern, it becomes less a community activity and more a numbers exercise.
Standard Disclaimer: Most of this is opinion based on over three decades of gaming, your mileage may vary, and hopefully something in it is of help and use.
May it work out for the best for all parties involved.
Well as of his most recent idea he wants to gain four arms so he can two weapon fight and spell combat as well as making all his melee attacks to AoE while having a permanent spell effect to give him flanking at all times.I, and the other player in this game have spent hours looking for spell, item, and feat combos that can give him the feel and effect that he wants.And just what is it that he wants?
It's just not feasible.
If he really wants to be more anime, then I'd strongly recommend looking through DSP's Path of War, as maneuvers are basically fancy stylish anime attacks, but the stuff he's asking for is just not possible in PF.
Is he a new player? How can he really have such stupid ideas? It reminds me of one of those stereotypical new players who wants to be a dragon or some snowflake race.
This guy is toxic. Drop him.
I'm actually pretty interested in the other player's characters.
Kensai Magus is usually a pretty balling build.
Are the other guys all lion totem barbarian/frenzied berserkers or something?
Or are we talking a party of 3.5e druid, a DMM Cleric and a Malconvoker wizard? Because I can understand how he might feel small in the pants compared to that. Not much a kensai could do to catch up.
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You said he complained about some of you and your groups suggestions were too complicated or over powered. He cannot legitimately complain that he is too weak and refuse what would make him on par with the others. It sounds to me like he thinks everyone else is over powered and wants them brought down to his level but knows that would not fly with them so he instead complains about his failure to match others shoulder to shoulder. It also sounds to me like there will be no satisfying the guy.
Since he likes anime, he might like the wuxia inspired 3.5 product titled Book of the Nine Swords, the swordsage class is similar to a magus in anime style.
If the other PCs aren't already hideously overpowered you could probably just give the Kensai an awesome magic weapon which makes him deal more damage than everybody else. Sometimes I go a little overboard with my PCs and the DM rewards other players with better items.
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To leap into the fray and kill lotsa things with one attack. Somehow I don't think even greater bladed dash would cut it, unless the mooks were really low level. The conqueror ooze might, if there was a way to fit great cleave into the already feat starved build. I think that build has the highest single attack damage I've seen so far. The only AOE martials get will be great cleave or whirlwind attack. Whirlwind attack requires a full attack action, not to mention the full feat chain requisites.
I've seen this kind of player before. He wants to run a character and use certain abilities because he thinks they are pretty cool right? Typically this means an average PC and not an above average. Not much you can do, but I have seen one gm do something to help these kinds of players along.
Have the entire party face mirror versions of themselves... that you've built. Build them all around being a solo character or one that doesn't need help. When the kensai magus gets creamed by his doppleganger just respond with "This guy accepted the advice of the GM rather than play on his ipad."
Guys with guns, bombs, and robots making a guy with a sword feel useless sounds pretty reasonable actually.
Maybe you could give him a lightsaber.
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Hey! Some people are old school who feel pathfinder and tech don't mix. I'm one of them! No bombs, no guns, no robots for me!
The more serious part is - is there a way without being tech capable to be viable in your campaign? Else that might be infringing into railroading players into particular builds kind of stuff...
You know what, after reading through everything here, and all of you asking great questions to help me get it all out I think I just had an epiphany, I think what he really wanted is to build a anime sword user the did the whole "we still use swords because we are too fast for bullets" from so many series and the problem is it's not working, he's not superior to the gun users of the party like anime has told him he should be, and I really think that's what's really bothering him. This making sense to anyone else or should I drink my monster before doing any more thinking?
As I mentioned before, a Path of War character would go a long way to making his character super anime inspired. To really go to the level of deflecting bullets etc, you're gonna need to outright fudge things, like, perhaps because of his 30 DEX, he now also gets like a +15 AC bonus to deflecting bullets with his sword. Even dealing with Touch AC, it'll make him more capable of dealing with bullets if they are prominent in your world.
Also to keep in mind, if he is using DEX, he does have some kind of DEX to DMG feat right? If not, he needs one. Fast. Path of War has Deadly Agility so he can get it without taking the cheesy Grace feats which only work for specific weapon types. I assume he's using a katana or nodachi, so that should go a ways to helping his damage at least.
Also by "artifacor" I assume you mean an Artificer? In which case... Well, that's your own Pandora's Box you opened up.
Maybe just ask him to keep the disruptive behavior to a minimum. If he doesn't like his character, fine, but he is ignoring advice on how to improve it.
Let him sit quietly and play on his ipad, as long as it doesn't bother the other players.
Some people just can't be pleased, don't worry about pleasing him, worry about how he affects the game.
Could you please post his full build? Class levels, feats, equipment and the spells he uses most often?
Perhaps a description of what he does when he's seriously trying in combat?
That would really help.
Also tell us which rules you are using for firearms (i think that there have at least a couple of rule sets about firearms in 3.5 and at least that many again in PF).